The Investigative Judgment

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, hch said:

What Jesus said regarding Lazarus and the rich man was a parable that included several parts as evidence from the context. In  Luke 15: 3 Jesus began His parable "And he spake this parable unto them, saying," and the parable began "What man of you, having an hundred sheep," (v.4) the point being " joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth," (v.7) The parable continues with the woman with 10 pieces of silver who rejoiced when she found the one that had been lost. The parable continues to the lost son and rejoicing when he is found (v. 32). The parable continues in chapter 16 to tell of the unfaithful steward who chose to be lost for worldly gain. " the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him." (16:14) And Jesus rebuked the Pharisees "He said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." (16:15). God knowing the hearts is a JUDGMENT WARNING. Then this parable moves to Lazarus and the beggar. 

The overall parable tells of the lost 1) sheep, 2) coin, 3) son, 4) steward, and 5) rich man. Someone is looking for the lost. The son came to his senses, but the steward and the rich man did not. The steward chose the world over heaven. And the rich man awoke too late (like the 5 foolish virgins in another parable). The interaction between the rich man Lazarus, and Abraham is part of the parable to teach that when the punishment is being dispensed, it is too late to change. That encounter in the parable does not teach life after death.

Using the name of the beggar as Lazarus in this multi-part parable foreshadowed that Jesus would resurrect a man by that name "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (16:31). And it was true. When Lazarus was raised from the dead, "But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus" (John 12:10-11). When Lazarus was resurrected, there is never a testimony to any excursion to heaven or hell. The testimony of the resurrected Lazarus' sister is that he had been in his grave 4 days. That is the ONLY account of where Lazarus was after he died.

Hebrews 9,27: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:" This text Does Not contradict that dead men rest in their graves until after their death the Investigative Judgment begins. When the books are opened, those dead men do not have to be bodily present to be judged according to the things recorded in the books.

Unfortunately, This is another example of human reasoning.

Jesus died on Friday. The thief did not die on Friday as evidenced that they broke his legs as the Sabbath drew on. The living thief could not be with Jesus in Heaven TODAY (on that Friday) since he had not yet died. And Jesus told Mary on SUNDAY that He had not yet ascended to Heaven. So Jesus did not go to Heaven on Friday (today) either.  For Jesus to say today that the thief would be in Heaven is not the same thing as Jesus saying that they would be together in heaven today (on that Friday). punctuation corrects that text. On that day, Jesus promised the thief that he would be resurrected to be among those who are to be in Heaven.

Jesus did suffer on Calvary ONCE. " being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" The reference to quickened by the Spirit "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" (2 Timothy 4:1) I.e., the living [quick] and the dead. The Holy Spirit quickened Jesus at His BIRTH not after His death. "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35) The Holy Spirit did not quicken Jesus after His death.  "I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father" (John 10:18).

1 Peter 3:18-20 is obviously saying that Jesus died once, then it gives a caveat to explain that his death was only possible after the Spirit had quickened him (Jesus could not have died before He had been born of Mary when He was made a little lower than the angels). Then Peter explains that by the Holy spirit Jesus " went and preached unto the spirits in prison" It is a traditional assumption to say that the "spirits" are people. And the word PREACHED is a translational opinion. Preached means to proclaim after the manner of a herald. Between the time of Jesus' birth and death, He did not preach unto spirits, He proclaimed the truth about the spirits. Examples of what Jesus proclaimed about the spirits: 1) He saw Satan fall from Heaven, 2) sister was bound by Satan 3) spirits leaves his house and finds it cleaned and garnished brings 7 back with him 4)He has the power to cast spirits out, etc. Thus Peter is talking about the devils that are in the prison of their own making. Then Peter continues to give the example of the flood where the Spirit of God gave Noah a message to the world that they rejected...

Rather than making this reply long by dealing with every point you raised, it is enough to say that the Bible does not disagree with itself. Rightly understood, there is perfect harmony within its pages. BUT when a text out of context is added to other texts out of context, doctrines of devils can be the unintended consequences. 

Did Jesus ever implement things into parables that couldn't happen or are you saying God, due to coming up short on ideas, used a lie to teach a truth? In any event one of the headlines in the parable (if it was even one) is that a particular judgement for the individual happens at death exactly as Scripture says it does. 

Jesus died on the 6th day - 6th day evening evolving into  Sabbath was / is a Rabbinical innovation and I can assure you that the thief was dead by the way Jesus reckoned time. 

Deut 21, 22: When a man hath committed a crime for which he is to be punished with death, and being condemned to die is hanged on a gibbet:His body shall not remain upon the tree, but shall be buried the same day: for he is accursed of God that hangeth on a tree:

You can't get air into your lungs if your legs are broken because you can't push yourself up - the criminals crucified with Jesus died that day. 

As for Spirit being that part of a person that leaves at death:

Acts 2,31: Foreseeing this, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ. For neither was HE left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption

Look up the Strong's definition of this - it's Hades / Orcus - notice that HE wasn't left in hell NOR did HIS FLESH see corruption. His flesh and His Spirit were not in the same place. 

†ᾅδης háidēs, hah'-dace; from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell.

1. a proper name, Hades, Pluto, the god of the lower regions; so in Homer always.
2. an appellative, Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead (cf: Theocritus, idyll. 2,159 schol. τήν τοῦ ᾅδου κρούει πύλην. τουτ' ἔστιν ἀποθανεῖται. In the Sept. the Hebrew שְׁאול is almost always rendered by this word (once by θάνατος, 2 Samuel 22:6); it denotes, therefore, in Biblical Greek Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark (Job 10:21) and dismal place (but cf. γέεννα and παράδεισος) in the very depths of the earth (Job 11:8; Isaiah 57:9; Amos 9:2, etc.; see ἄβυσσος), the common receptacle of disembodied spirits:

 

You're right, the Bible does not disagree with itself - therefore when the Bible says that Jesus died and went to preach to the spirits in prison prior to His resurrection that's what happened. For you to be right you'd have to actually make the claim that Hebrew and Greek words don't have the meaning Strong's says they do or that there was a conspiracy which ran so deep that even Jesus' Apostles believed in Ghosts as described by definition of the word in Strong's. You have to agree that is difficult to accept. 

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, Gustave said:

Where do you read or understand that the veil of the temple that was torn was the entrance veil?

google it.  There's  a ton of stuff on the internet.  I won't copy it over for you here. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 6/24/2018 at 12:41 PM, Gustave said:

Revelation 11, 18-19 doesn't say anything about Jesus "moving into the holies" - only that it was finally "the time of the dead" that they should be judged.

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail".

This is all about executing judgment that had already been determined. The servants of God ( prophets and the saints are being rewarded ) and the lost is angry because God wrath had come, it was for them "the time of the dead". 

There is nothing about the IJ here. 

 

I agree. 

And this "time" for executing judgment upon the wicked, and for rewarding the saints, happens AT THE 7th TRUMPET.  

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

You can't separate verses 18-19 from verse 15. 

1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."    This is the Glorious Return!  The 7th trumpet is the LAST of the trumpets. 

The angel told Daniel:  "At that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book, and multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever " (Dan 12:2 NIV).

Of those resurrected on this day, by far the majority will be the wicked - raised to "shame and everlasting contempt".  Christ did say, "few there be that find it", so we would expect those raised to everlasting life, would be far fewer in number. 

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, Gustave said:

I didn't forget ( & have not overlooked ) that Scripture says after death comes judgement. 

Hebrews 9,27: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:"

This lines up with what Jesus said about Lazarus and the rich man, who each died & found themselves in different places between the death & resurrection of the body.

This lines up with what Jesus said to the Thief on the cross & with the account of Jesus ministering to the "spirits in prison" after His death on the cross.

This lines up with the "spirits of just men made perfect" who are said to be participating in a festive gathering in heaven with the Trinity and angels - a festive gathering that believers are said to be coming before - when they worship Christ here on earth. 

This lines up with what Saint Paul said about how much he'd rather depart from his body and be with Christ contrasted with staying alive and remaining in his body. 

This lines up with what Stephen saw as he entered into death when he was stoned.

This lines up with what John saw in Revelation 20, 4-6.

These things ( and there are others ) indicate a "particular judgement" of the individual, after death, exactly as Hebrews 9,27 says.  I think you poured the definition of the "General Judgement" into the Particular Judgement and due to your belief in the IJ have extended out the timing of the Particular Judgement so that it takes the place of the General Judgement. Of course because of this timing problem you can't St. Paul's spirit going to be with Christ before Paul has gone through the Investigative judgement - therefore you claim there isn't a spirit of man that goes on after death or that the soul sleeps and is in a unconscious state until the person wakes up at the General Judgement when they are resurrected and receive their Particular Judgement. Did I get that right? 

I have honestly evaluated what you've said - can you say that you've considered what I've shown you the Bible says? 

 

 

On my website, there is a study on the state of man in death, and another on the topic of Hell.  I personally believe in soul-sleep during death.  I believe that "Hell" is simply "Sheol" - where the dead go, all of the dead, not just the wicked or "lost".  I will not go into my expositions covering each of the things you referred to.  Please see the studies on PVP.

https://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/13-Where are the Dead.htm 

https://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/14-Hell.htm

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

are you saying God, due to coming up short on ideas, used a lie to teach a truth?

A parable may reference events or symbolic activities which have no actual, literal counterpart in real life.   Jesus was understood to be speaking in parables.  This was how He avoided arrest by the authorities much sooner. 

Matthew 13:34 "All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them." 

Christ's story of the rich man and Lazarus was such a parable.  The "rich man" represented the Jewish rulers, who believed themselves rich in the things of God.  The poor diseased beggar who sat outside the gate, represented the Gentiles, whom the Jews regarded as unclean and outside of the Kingdom.  The rich man had 5 brothers.  So did  Caiaphas the High Priest. 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

the criminals crucified with Jesus died that day

Yes.  But on Sunday morning, Jesus said to Mary, "I have NOT YET ASCENDED to My Father".  

The understanding of the promise to the thief "You will be with me in paradise", depends on the punctuation.  There WAS NO punctuation in the ancient manuscripts.  

SO Jesus could have said,

"Today you will be with me in paradise" 

OR  "I'm telling you today.  You will be with me in paradise."  

The fact that Jesus had not yet ascended to "paradise" on Sunday morning, makes me doubt He was there - with the thief - on Friday. 

[8thdaypriest]

26 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Hebrews 9,27: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:"

Just says you will not be judged until after you're dead.   There are several stories of persons who DIED more than one time.  

But not reincarnation, with birth and death many times. 

[8thdaypriest]

Re:  Hebrews 9:27  "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment."

Just wanted to point out that the Hebrew (Strong's #0259) 'echad is translated as "once" - and as "first". 

Meaning:  1) one (number) 1a) one (number) 1b) each, every 1c) a certain 1d) an (indefinite article) 1e) only, once, once for all 1f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one 1g) first 1h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)
Usage:  AV - one 687, first 36, another 35, other 30, any 18, once 13, eleven + 06240 13, every 10, certain 9, an 7, some 7, misc. 86; 951

I think it quite possible that The Letter to the Hebrews, was first written in Hebrew. 

[8thdaypriest]

Daniel 8:13-14  Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?" 14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed." (NKJ)

The question is asked concerning the period of persecution, and the trampling of the Lord's host.  The answer given, says the period of trampling (of the Sanctuary) will last for 2300 evening/mornings (a references to the morning and evening sacrifice).  Then the Sanctuary will be "cleansed".  

The word translated as "cleansed" is in the perfect tense - which signifies a completed act and condition.  The 2300 E/Ms bring us to a perfectly cleansed Sanctuary, NOT to the beginning of the process of cleansing.   This fits with my understanding that the 2300 E/Ms will END at the final DAY of Atonement, when Heaven itself (the true Tabernacle) is declared "clean", justified, just, righteous and cleared of all wrong.  

The Hebrew word tsadaq (Strong's #06663) - is translated as "cleansed" in Daniel 8:14. 
Meaning:  1) to be just, be righteous 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to have a just cause, be in the right 1a2) to be justified 1a3) to be just (of God) 1a4) to be just, be righteous (in conduct and character) 1b) (Niphal) to be put or made right, be justified 1c) (Piel) justify, make to appear righteous, make someone righteous 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to do or bring justice (in administering law) 1d2) to declare righteous, justify 1d3) to justify, vindicate the cause of, save 1d4) to make righteous, turn to righteousness 1e) (Hithpael) to justify oneself

God Himself is the one declared righteous, just, and without wrong - at the end of the 2300 E/Ms. 

[8thdaypriest]

Daniel 8:13-14  Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices [taken away] and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?" 14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed." (NKJ)

If we knew the exact END of the 2300 E/Ms, then we would know the DAY of His return.   Why?  Because Jesus will return just as soon as dominion of the earth is given to Him (having been taken from Satan).  This forced transfer of dominion, from Satan to "the Son of Man",   is the OUTCOME of the judgment depicted in Daniel 7. 

For Heaven to be "cleansed" of the accusations of fault or guilt,  that guilt for sin must be (legally and officially) put upon the head of Satan.   This is done by the High Priest - Jesus Christ.  He then, as the "fit man" casts Satan into the "uninhabited place" - the abyss.  This will happen at the Glorious Return.  It did not happen back in 1844.  

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

Daniel 8:13-14  Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices [taken away] and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?" 14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed." (NKJ)

The question concerns a certain trampling [of both the sanctuary and the host] BY "the Abomination of Desolation".   It is a period of great persecution.   It will be THE LAST period of persecution - leading up to the Glorious Return.   

This period of persecution cannot be 2300 YEARS.   The Roman Army under Titus destroyed the Temple back in 70AD.  They razed it to the ground.  They certainly "trampled" it.  Both Jews and Christians were then dispersed and persecuted.  If we add 2300 years to 70AD, that would mean Christ will not return until the year 2370.   Anyone want to go THERE?

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Gustave; thank you for this reply. The one thing that I would add to it is that you used an Ellen White quote to establish "Adventist belief." Our church does not do that. If you could find something similar in one of our "official beliefs," then I think your point would be better taken.

Point well taken.

Belief #18: The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)

Ellen White voraciously wrote that up to the point that Jesus died He could have sinned and lost His salvation. The I.J. mechanism appears to put Jesus on a type of probationary merit system that requires that He fulfil each and every minute "type" found in the Old Covenant sacrificial system used by the Jew's. As you accurately pointed out Jesus was far greater than the Temple therefore the temple conforms to Christ - not the other way around. 

 

[Gustave]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I agree. 

And this "time" for executing judgment upon the wicked, and for rewarding the saints, happens AT THE 7th TRUMPET.  

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

You can't separate verses 18-19 from verse 15. 

1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."    This is the Glorious Return!  The 7th trumpet is the LAST of the trumpets. 

The angel told Daniel:  "At that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book, and multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever " (Dan 12:2 NIV).

Of those resurrected on this day, by far the majority will be the wicked - raised to "shame and everlasting contempt".  Christ did say, "few there be that find it", so we would expect those raised to everlasting life, would be far fewer in number. 

Yes, this is speaking of the General Judgement - not the Particular Judgment which we each go through at our own death.

[Gustave]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Yes.  But on Sunday morning, Jesus said to Mary, "I have NOT YET ASCENDED to My Father".  

The understanding of the promise to the thief "You will be with me in paradise", depends on the punctuation.  There WAS NO punctuation in the ancient manuscripts.  

SO Jesus could have said,

"Today you will be with me in paradise" 

OR  "I'm telling you today.  You will be with me in paradise."  

The fact that Jesus had not yet ascended to "paradise" on Sunday morning, makes me doubt He was there - with the thief - on Friday. 

NO Jew listening to Christ at that time would have understood Paradise to be in heaven - with the exception of the Sadducees all Jews believed paradise was a section of Hades reserved for the just - the friends of God. This is why the creed states that where Jesus went ( hell ) because that's where "the spirits in prison" were. Remember, Jesus He would go and prepare a place for His followers so that where Jesus was His followers could also be. 

[Gustave]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Just says you will not be judged until after you're dead.   There are several stories of persons who DIED more than one time.  

But not reincarnation, with birth and death many times. 

Those are outliers and not the norm. 

[Gustave]

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

google it.  There's  a ton of stuff on the internet.  I won't copy it over for you here. 

Good, I'm glad it's all on the internet,  I was thinking I missed that part of the Bible that describes what you said. 

[Gustave]

32 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

her "correction" to the church was not for the purpose of doctrinal formation, or origin. This belief clearly says that the Bible is to be the test for her writing and ministry. That is how the church has always seen it.

The SDA Church says that Ellen writings "speak with prophetic authority" so IF a member of the SDA Church said Ellen was wrong about the possibility of Christ committing vice or the I.J. or something like that what would happen? 

What does it mean that Ellen White's writings speak with prophetic authority? 

 

[hch]

Gustave, Allow me to insert bracketed comments into your post in red to answer you questions. Then I will answer your conclusion.

20 hours ago, Gustave said:

Did Jesus ever implement things into parables that couldn't happen or are you saying God, due to coming up short on ideas, used a lie to teach a truth? In any event one of the headlines in the parable (if it was even one) is that a particular judgement for the individual happens at death exactly as Scripture says it does. 

[HCH's reply: Jesus used stories familiar to His hearers to make His points]

Jesus died on the 6th day - 6th day evening evolving into  Sabbath was / is a Rabbinical innovation and I can assure you that the thief was dead by the way Jesus reckoned time. 

[HCH's reply: Jesus Did not go to Heaven on that Friday and surely the thief did not go there that day either. On that today they did not meet in Heaven.]

Deut 21, 22: When a man hath committed a crime for which he is to be punished with death, and being condemned to die is hanged on a gibbet:His body shall not remain upon the tree, but shall be buried the same day: for he is accursed of God that hangeth on a tree:

[HCH's reply: Only if that man is dead. They wouldn't bury living people. And the Roman's did not break the legs of dead people while being crucified. you are grasping for straws. As I understand it, crucifixion was a prolonged torture that resulted in death after days of suffering. But Jesus died extremely fast. cf Mark 15:44 "And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead."]

You can't get air into your lungs if your legs are broken because you can't push yourself up - the criminals crucified with Jesus died that day. 

As for Spirit being that part of a person that leaves at death: [HCH's reply: Genesis 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Upon death the breath that God breathed into man to make him a living soul returns to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7  "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Breath and spirit are the same word.]

Acts 2,31: Foreseeing this, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ. For neither was HE left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption

Look up the Strong's definition of this - it's Hades / Orcus - notice that HE wasn't left in hell NOR did HIS FLESH see corruption. His flesh and His Spirit were not in the same place. 

†ᾅδης háidēs, hah'-dace; from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell.

1. a proper name, Hades, Pluto, the god of the lower regions; so in Homer always.
2. an appellative, Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead (cf: Theocritus, idyll. 2,159 schol. τήν τοῦ ᾅδου κρούει πύλην. τουτ' ἔστιν ἀποθανεῖται. In the Sept. the Hebrew שְׁאול is almost always rendered by this word (once by θάνατος, 2 Samuel 22:6); it denotes, therefore, in Biblical Greek Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark (Job 10:21) and dismal place (but cf. γέεννα and παράδεισος) in the very depths of the earth (Job 11:8; Isaiah 57:9; Amos 9:2, etc.; see ἄβυσσος), the common receptacle of disembodied spirits:

[HCH's reply: The material about hell that you quoted from Strong pointed out that the Acts 2,31: "Foreseeing this, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ. For neither was HE left in THE GRAVE, neither did his flesh see corruption" But that is not the answer you were looking for.]

You're right, the Bible does not disagree with itself - therefore when the Bible says that Jesus died and went to preach to the spirits in prison prior to His resurrection that's what happened. For you to be right you'd have to actually make the claim that Hebrew and Greek words don't have the meaning Strong's says they do or that there was a conspiracy which ran so deep that even Jesus' Apostles believed in Ghosts as described by definition of the word in Strong's. You have to agree that is difficult to accept. 

 

Gustave,

I showed where Strong's gave the correct meaning, but you chose to accept traditional variations that are in error.

Now that we have reached the end of your comments, let's look closer at your final comment in light of what the Bible says.

TRUTH... God said:  "thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

LIE...The serpent said: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" (Genesis 3:4).

For the Scriptures to be true they must align with TRUTH. If they are not understood correctly in that they align with a LIE then they are made to contradict TRUTH!

When the breath that God breathed into man to make him a LIVING SOUL returns to God man returns to the dust of the ground.

 

TRUTH (these Scriptures align with truth)

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Genesis 3:19)   [The soul that returns to dust after the breath leaves has corruption]

"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust." (Psalm 104:29).

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence" (Psalm 115:17).

The points that you tried to make do not align with TRUTH.

But misunderstanding Scriptures to make them align with the LIE "Ye shall not surely die:" is not rightly dividing the Scriptures.

The truth is that

1) Christ did not preach to dead souls that do not know anything,

2) Christ died on Calvary and his body did not decay back into the dust (see corruption) because He resurrected Himself on the 3rd day

3) Christ was in His grave until He arose

And all of the other points when rightly understood align with truth. If they align with the LIE they are not being rightly understood

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT IS A HEAVENLY PROCESS THAT DOES NOT HAVE US PRESENT DURING THE PROCEDURE.

 

[8thdaypriest]

I will be busy for few days.  Will be back.  8dp

[Gustave]

17 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

My point, exactly. Its a fair question well worth exploring. Perhaps, just to begin with, we could ask another question to answer that question?

Did ALL prophets in the Bible formulate or originate "doctrine?" Are ALL Bible prophets concerned about getting doctrine perfectly correct?

No Biblical prophets I know of formulated or confirmed the validity of Doctrines. Ellen White was instrumental in validating SDA Doctrines.

[Gustave]

10 hours ago, hch said:

Gustave, Allow me to insert bracketed comments into your post in red to answer you questions. Then I will answer your conclusion.

 

Gustave,

I showed where Strong's gave the correct meaning, but you chose to accept traditional variations that are in error.

Now that we have reached the end of your comments, let's look closer at your final comment in light of what the Bible says.

TRUTH... God said:  "thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

LIE...The serpent said: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" (Genesis 3:4).

For the Scriptures to be true they must align with TRUTH. If they are not understood correctly in that they align with a LIE then they are made to contradict TRUTH!

When the breath that God breathed into man to make him a LIVING SOUL returns to God man returns to the dust of the ground.

 

TRUTH (these Scriptures align with truth)

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Genesis 3:19)   [The soul that returns to dust after the breath leaves has corruption]

"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust." (Psalm 104:29).

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence" (Psalm 115:17).

The points that you tried to make do not align with TRUTH.

But misunderstanding Scriptures to make them align with the LIE "Ye shall not surely die:" is not rightly dividing the Scriptures.

The truth is that

1) Christ did not preach to dead souls that do not know anything,

2) Christ died on Calvary and his body did not decay back into the dust (see corruption) because He resurrected Himself on the 3rd day

3) Christ was in His grave until He arose

And all of the other points when rightly understood align with truth. If they align with the LIE they are not being rightly understood

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT IS A HEAVENLY PROCESS THAT DOES NOT HAVE US PRESENT DURING THE PROCEDURE.

 

There are no variations here - I'll illustrate the fallacy of your position - using Hades the way you do.

'And being in torments in THE GRAVE he lifted his eyes up and saw Abraham afar off' Luke 16,23

'the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death AND THE GRAVE delivered up the dead who were  in THEM' Rev 20,13

'then death and THE GRAVE were cast into the lake of fire' Rev 20,14

Doesn't make any sense does it.

Hades does not mean death - THANATOS is the word for death in the new testament.

Finally, Jesus settled the matter by the way He answered the Sadducees.

Sadducees being those who rejected angels AND spirits Acts 23,8.

 Now, read Mark 12, 18 - 27 and realize that Jesus answered the Sadducees question AND PROCEEDED TO ANSWER in the affirmative the reality of the spirits of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob were quite very much alive - & that there were such things as angels - notice THIS wasn't even a question the Sadducees asked but Jesus corrected them in their error anyway. 

 

 

[hch]

2 hours ago, Gustave said:

There are no variations here - I'll illustrate the fallacy of your position - using Hades the way you do.

'And being in torments in THE GRAVE he lifted his eyes up and saw Abraham afar off' Luke 16,23

'the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death AND THE GRAVE delivered up the dead who were  in THEM' Rev 20,13

'then death and THE GRAVE were cast into the lake of fire' Rev 20,14

Doesn't make any sense does it.

Hades does not mean death - THANATOS is the word for death in the new testament.

Finally, Jesus settled the matter by the way He answered the Sadducees.

Sadducees being those who rejected angels AND spirits Acts 23,8.

 Now, read Mark 12, 18 - 27 and realize that Jesus answered the Sadducees question AND PROCEEDED TO ANSWER in the affirmative the reality of the spirits of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob were quite very much alive - & that there were such things as angels - notice THIS wasn't even a question the Sadducees asked but Jesus corrected them in their error anyway. 

Gustave,

Excellent observation! (regarding 'And being in torments in THE GRAVE he lifted his eyes up and saw Abraham afar off' Luke 16,23) In this parable, this would be a reference to the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the only place where sinners will be burned, even though it was designed for the devil and his angels.

These would be correct: 

the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death AND THE GRAVE delivered up the dead who were  in THEM' Rev 20,13 

then death and THE GRAVE were cast into the lake of fire' Rev 20,14

Makes perfect sense since the dead are dead until they are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire. There is no other option unless Satan's lie is true.

Re Acts 23:8 "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both."

There are 3 items listed there 1) no resurrection, 2) neither angel,3) nor spirit

but the Pharisees confess both.

Both: 1) resurrection 2) angels and [evil] spirits (which are fallen angels) ? Strong uses  spirits in that way
"3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men"

 

2 hours ago, Gustave said:

read Mark 12, 18 - 27 and realize that Jesus answered the Sadducees question AND PROCEEDED TO ANSWER in the affirmative the reality of the spirits of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob were quite very much alive - & that there were such things as angels - notice THIS wasn't even a question the Sadducees asked but Jesus corrected them in their error anyway. 

 

Jesus did not contradict God's warning: ye shall surely die in the day that you eat of the tree...

Thus Rachel's comments earlier in this discussion are worthy of consideration. She said in effect that... the saints that are sleeping in their graves are alive to God, because He is going to wake them to eternal life. This is not true with the wicked. They will be awakened, but only to be cast into the lake of fire and to receive eternal death.

[hch]

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:29 PM, Gustave said:

No Biblical prophets I know of formulated or confirmed the validity of Doctrines. Ellen White was instrumental in validating SDA Doctrines.

Gustave,

IMHO: Ellen White was unique. A woman, called to minister to a church that does not believe in women ministers. A woman that was capable of placing texts in context when they were gathered here and there from various settings. But she is not for everyone, only those who are willing to take the Bible and the Bible only will receive the refreshing that she brings from the LORD.

But I am going to let MHO take a break from this conversation. I've been meditating today on history and Scripture so much that my soul is troubled.

Did you know that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be just before Christ returns? They were allowed 120 years back then. This October 2018 will be 120 years since the leading class in the SDA Church rejected the light at Minneapolis. (I'm not saying Christ will come in October, but that October brings us that much closer to Christ's Coming). Imagine that? those 120 years are ending soon after the prophetic hour (83 years 4 months) ended that I discussed from Revelation 14, 17, and 18. The prophetic history that has been fulfilled since 14 February 2013 overwhelms me.

And reviewing Ellen's statement that to understand the formation of the Image Beast, we must study the Beast. I learned that the beast was formed after 3 kings were plucked up (from 508-538) from the area comprising the Western Roman Empire. In Daniel "Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his step" (Daniel 11:43) That was fulfilled in 2011, The amazing coincidence is that 7 years ago (imagine a 7 year period in Daniel?) the Arab Spring followed in America's steps.  And now it is time that "the ships of Chittim shall come against him:" (Daniel 11:30). [I read Chittim as Iran that  attacks US fleet in the Gulf. I thought it would have been long before this. But it is so close now]

As we near July 3, 2018 (that is a significant date for Iran, that they have not taken revenge against the US as yet)  I am impressed to devote more time to prayer and study. It is time to be sure my sins are taken into the Most Holy Place and to be sure that I have sought and received forgiveness while Christ still ministers in the Temple in Heaven during the Investigative Judgment. What a shame it would be to study about the Sanctuary and not to apply the knowledge learned. To preach to others and be lost because of neglect of duty.

I may check back to marvel at the comments  that get posted in my absence, (so that I don't get too far behind). But there are so many things to study and so little time. And so few who manifest a real interest in Bible doctrines and prophecy as I am reading it.

 

[stinsonmarri]

21 hours ago, hch said:

And reviewing Ellen's statement that to understand the formation of the Image Beast, we must study the Beast. I learned that the beast was formed after 3 kings were plucked up (from 508-538) from the area comprising the Western Roman Empire. In Daniel "Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his step" (Daniel 11:43) That was fulfilled in 2011, The amazing coincidence is that 7 years ago (imagine a 7 year period in Daniel?) the Arab Spring followed in America's steps.  And now it is time that "the ships of Chittim shall come against him:" (Daniel 11:30). [I read Chittim as Iran that  attacks US fleet in the Gulf. I thought it would have been long before this. But it is so close now]

As we near July 3, 2018 (that is a significant date for Iran, that they have not taken revenge against the US as yet)  I am impressed to devote more time to prayer and study. It is time to be sure my sins are taken into the Most Holy Place and to be sure that I have sought and received forgiveness while Christ still ministers in the Temple in Heaven during the Investigative Judgment. What a shame it would be to study about the Sanctuary and not to apply the knowledge learned. To preach to others and be lost because of neglect of duty.

I may check back to marvel at the comments  that get posted in my absence, (so that I don't get too far behind). But there are so many things to study and so little time. And so few who manifest a real interest in Bible doctrines and prophecy as I am reading it.

 

hch: I am so glad that you are doing research and looking more deeply into the Bible. I also like that you to look up what Paleo Hebrew words actually mean; which I have stated is so important. EGW is right in order to understand the image to the beast we first must study the beast.

More than one wound seems to me to be meant, for example, that under Constantine (when the pagan worship of the emperor’s image gave way to Christianity), followed by the healing, when image worship and the other papal errors were introduced into the Church; again, that at the Reformation, followed by the lethargic form of godliness without the power, and about to end in the last great apostasy, which I identify with the second beast (Rev_13:11), Antichrist, the same seventh world power in another form. A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown Rev 13

Adam Clarke, LL.D., F.S.A., (1715-1832)

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication - This strikingly represents the most pompous and costly manner in which the Latin Church has held forth to the nations the rites and ceremonies of its idolatrous and corrupt worship. Rev 17:4; Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

The meaning here is, that it seemed to be a cup filled with wine, but it was in fact a cup full of all abominable drugs, leading to all kinds of corruption. How much in accordance this is with the fascinations of the papacy, it is not necessary now to say, after the ample illustrations of the same thing already furnished in these notes. Rev 17:4

 Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)

 This beast, the papacy, makes an eighth governor, and sets up idolatry again. 3. This beast had ten horns; which are said to be ten kings which have as yet received no kingdoms; as yet, that is, as some, shall not rise up till the Roman empire be broken in pieces; or, as others, shall not rise up till near the end of Antichrist's reign, and so shall reign but as it were one hour with her, but shall for that time be very unanimous and very zealous in that interest, and entirely devoted to it, divesting themselves of their prerogatives and revenues (things so dear to princes), out of an unaccountable fondness for the papacy. Rev 17:10

I provided these Protestants because they at one time all believe that the papacy is the beast. I do not accept the Sunday blue law myth. The Bible says keep all the Commandments and you do not see Revelation mentioning the Sabbath but once. Rev 1:10 If you read your Bible and understood the first vision EGW had it was about the 144,000. She also wrote the book Testimony to the Ministers and Gospel Worker and it was finalized and published just before she died! She said we would have less to say about the papacy. TM p. 112 The son of perdition is not the papacy it is the beast. And both Daniel and Revelation see him destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Dan 7:11; Rev 19:19 The 144,000 along with those who will rise from the grave with everlasting life; they will finish the work. They will bring in the great multitude out the great tribulation or Time of Trouble. That will last 3 1\2 years. Dan 12:1-3, 7; Rev 11:3-6 Why would THE MOST HIGH raise people from the dead if the remnant was going to be persecuted. That make no sense, that is why we need to go back over what we thought was true and realize just like the "shut door," we made a honest mistake. The pioneers all believed what accepted by all Protestants of the day and that why Uriah Smith book was even accepted  by EGW. However, she changed her mind in her book Testimonies to the Ministers and Gospel Workers. She realized Daniel and Revelation was not understood and she made it clear, it would be understood just before YAHSHUA comes. She was so serious about how we should search the Scriptures that she spend a whole chapter on it! She concluded with a sub-chapter of compilation of her work on Daniel and Revelation. TM p. 112-119 

SDA seem to think what we have is all concrete and it is not! We must go back and recheck and understand what made us the Ladiocean Church. Why do we need eye salves that are eyes need to  be open? The Bible  says we are the wretched, naked,  and blind. Yet, we think we are rich and need nothing. Why did YAHSHUA state that HIS Kingdom had five wise and five foolish virgins? Did you notice that in Dan 12:3 wise teachers are mention and in Rev 14:4 the 144,000 are called virgins? All of this is part of understanding the beast as EGW clearly states! The Bible clearly states that the beast is the 8th and the kings who join with him that have not receive their kingdoms yet will hate the whore (that is the Catholic Church). Paul also gives more detail about the son of perdition that YAHSHUA stated as well. John 17:12; 2 Th 2:3-12

Then the Bible says both about the beast and Babylon has one hour. If you look at Dan 12:7, 11, 12; the Bible gives you three different times: 1, 260; 1,290; 1,335! It then say blessed be those who wait for 1,335. If you subtract 1,290 from 1,335 you get 75 days. Now if you understand knowledge and wisdom from THE HOLY SPIRIT, you return to Revelation. Rev 11:7, 13; 14:7; 17:12; 8:10, 17, 19 all have to do with a hour; this is not spiritual but prophetic and Daniel provides the time. One hour prophetic base on Ezekiel prophecy of a day=year; than one hour = 60  or two months! The beast does not appear until after the Gospel is completed, that takes 1,260 days or literally 3 1/2 years. The first text above states clearly that once it is completed then the beast comes from the bottomless pit. So that proves right there no one at this time knows who the beast is!!!!!! Then the next verse let you know what actual city is Babylon because it is called the great city and spiritually Sodom and Egypt. But it also clearly states it is where YAHSHUA was crucified! Also verse 2 definitely provides the truth also that it is Jerusalem known as the holy city. Once the Gospel is finish then probation begins and lasted on two months. During that time the Judgement of ELOHIYM has come for the wicked they are lost! During that same hour a great event takes place. All religions will be toss aside to worship the beast. The only one that will depose him is the whore her harlots: Judaic and Protestants (include SDA who are lost which is the majority). There will be a battle for supremacy, that my friend is the battle of Armageddon and Jerusalem and the papacy and her harlots will fall. The beast will sit in the temple that they build during the Time of Trouble. During the battle, like a thief in the night YAHSHUA and HIS angels are on the way to earth. The FATHER tell the righteous who had scattered like Elijah, where their bread and water is supplied. It takes 15 days with all the host of Heaven to get to the earth and that is the blessing to wait for 1,335 days! That's just a small synopsis because the false prophet, the image to the beast, bottomless pit, the angel with key to the bottomless pit, the smoke/locust/scorpion and more must be included into the story to understand it all. Let me say this, the Old Testament will provide the clues to understanding and be part of the last days events!

The image to the beast has truly been overlook in this church. The lamblike beast have power to give life  to the image that it comes alive and speaks!  No where does it state that if you do not worship the beast you will be killed; instead you must  worship the image and many who don't worship it will be killed! This need to be check out and you will be shock what you will find!!!

I am a presenter and I hope you don't be close minded, but be like the Bereans, check out what I have presented along with the Scriptures with prayer. See if these things are so, then through prayer make your decision. Do not take me or anyone's word! If it is true then THE HOLY SPIRIT Will prove all things to you, but you have to study, do diligently research and read the Scriptures exactly as they state. We must stop trying to interpret them, they can speak for themselves. Ask for understanding and the knowledge has to come from the understanding of the Law and the Testimony. Isa 8:20 if they speak not according to  those two things there is no light in it! EGW stated this:The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as THE VOICE of ______; they were erring mortals like ourselves. _______has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor. TM p.106 

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

24 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

 

hch: I am so glad that you are doing research and looking more deeply into the Bible. I also like that you to look up what Paleo Hebrew words actually mean; which I have stated is so important. EGW is right in order to understand the image to the beast we first must study the beast.

More than one wound seems to me to be meant, for example, that under Constantine (when the pagan worship of the emperor’s image gave way to Christianity), followed by the healing, when image worship and the other papal errors were introduced into the Church; again, that at the Reformation, followed by the lethargic form of godliness without the power, and about to end in the last great apostasy, which I identify with the second beast (Rev_13:11), Antichrist, the same seventh world power in another form. A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown Rev 13

Adam Clarke, LL.D., F.S.A., (1715-1832)

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication - This strikingly represents the most pompous and costly manner in which the Latin Church has held forth to the nations the rites and ceremonies of its idolatrous and corrupt worship. Rev 17:4; Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

The meaning here is, that it seemed to be a cup filled with wine, but it was in fact a cup full of all abominable drugs, leading to all kinds of corruption. How much in accordance this is with the fascinations of the papacy, it is not necessary now to say, after the ample illustrations of the same thing already furnished in these notes. Rev 17:4

 Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)

 This beast, the papacy, makes an eighth governor, and sets up idolatry again.  This beast had ten horns; which are said to be ten kings which have as yet received no kingdoms; as yet, that is, as some, shall not rise up till the Roman empire be broken in pieces; or, as others, shall not rise up till near the end of Antichrist's reign, and so shall reign but as it were one hour with her, but shall for that time be very unanimous and very zealous in that interest, and entirely devoted to it, divesting themselves of their prerogatives and revenues (things so dear to princes), out of an unaccountable fondness for the papacy. Rev 17:10

I provided these Protestants because they at one time all believe that the papacy is the beast. I do not accept the Sunday blue law myth. The Bible says keep all the Commandments and you do not see Revelation mentioning the Sabbath but once. Rev 1:10 If you read your Bible and understood the first vision EGW had it was about the 144,000. She also wrote the book Testimony to the Ministers and Gospel Worker and it was finalized and published just before she died! She said we would have less to say about the papacy. TM p. 112 The son of perdition is not the papacy it is the beast. And both Daniel and Revelation see him destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Dan 7:11; Rev 19:19 The 144,000 along with those who will rise from the grave with everlasting life; they will finish the work. They will bring in the great multitude out the great tribulation or Time of Trouble. That will last 3 1\2 years. Dan 12:1-3, 7; Rev 11:3-6 Why would THE MOST HIGH raise people from the dead if the remnant was going to be persecuted. That make no sense, that is why we need to go back over what we thought was true and realize just like the "shut door," we made a honest mistake. The pioneers all believed what accepted by all Protestants of the day and that why Uriah Smith book was even accepted  by EGW. However, she changed her mind in her book Testimonies to the Ministers and Gospel Workers. She realized Daniel and Revelation was not understood and she made it clear, it would be understood just before YAHSHUA comes. She was so serious about how we should search the Scriptures that she spend a whole chapter on it! She concluded with a sub-chapter of compilation of her work on Daniel and Revelation. TM p. 112-119 

SDA seem to think what we have is all concrete and it is not! We must go back and recheck and understand what made us the Ladiocean Church. Why do we need eye salves that are eyes need to  be open? The Bible  says we are the wretched, naked,  and blind. Yet, we think we are rich and need nothing. Why did YAHSHUA state that HIS Kingdom had five wise and five foolish virgins? Did you notice that in Dan 12:3 wise teachers are mention and in Rev 14:4 the 144,000 are called virgins? All of this is part of understanding the beast as EGW clearly states! The Bible clearly states that the beast is the 8th and the kings who join with him that have not receive their kingdoms yet will hate the whore (that is the Catholic Church). Paul also gives more detail about the son of perdition that YAHSHUA stated as well. John 17:12; 2 Th 2:3-12

Then the Bible says both about the beast and Babylon has one hour. If you look at Dan 12:7, 11, 12; the Bible gives you three different times: 1, 260; 1,290; 1,335! It then say blessed be those who wait for 1,335. If you subtract 1,290 from 1,335 you get 75 days. Now if you understand knowledge and wisdom from THE HOLY SPIRIT, you return to Revelation. Rev 11:7, 13; 14:7; 17:12; 8:10, 17, 19 all have to do with a hour; this is not spiritual but prophetic and Daniel provides the time. One hour prophetic base on Ezekiel prophecy of a day=year; than one hour = 60  or two months! The beast does not appear until after the Gospel is completed, that takes 1,260 days or literally 3 1/2 years. The first text above states clearly that once it is completed then the beast comes from the bottomless pit. So that proves right there no one at this time knows who the beast is!!!!!! Then the next verse let you know what actual city is Babylon because it is called the great city and spiritually Sodom and Egypt. But it also clearly states it is where YAHSHUA was crucified! Also verse 2 definitely provides the truth also that it is Jerusalem known as the holy city. Once the Gospel is finish then probation begins and lasted on two months. During that time the Judgement of ELOHIYM has come for the wicked they are lost! During that same hour a great event takes place. All religions will be toss aside to worship the beast. The only one that will depose him is the whore her harlots: Judaic and Protestants (include SDA who are lost which is the majority). There will be a battle for supremacy, that my friend is the battle of Armageddon and Jerusalem and the papacy and her harlots will fall. The beast will sit in the temple that they build during the Time of Trouble. During the battle, like a thief in the night YAHSHUA and HIS angels are on the way to earth. The FATHER tell the righteous who had scattered like Elijah, where their bread and water is supplied. It takes 15 days with all the host of Heaven to get to the earth and that is the blessing to wait for 1,335 days! That's just a small synopsis because the false prophet, the image to the beast, bottomless pit, the angel with key to the bottomless pit, the smoke/locust/scorpion and more must be included into the story to understand it all. Let me say this, the Old Testament will provide the clues to understanding and be part of the last days events!

The image to the beast has truly been overlook in this church. The lamblike beast have power to give life  to the image that it comes alive and speaks!  No where does it state that if you do not worship the beast you will be killed; instead you must  worship the image and many who don't worship it will be killed! This need to be check out and you will be shock what you will find!!!

I am a presenter and I hope you don't be close minded, but be like the Bereans, check out what I have presented along with the Scriptures with prayer. See if these things are so, then through prayer make your decision. Do not take me or anyone's word! If it is true then THE HOLY SPIRIT Will prove all things to you, but you have to study, do diligently research and read the Scriptures exactly as they state. We must stop trying to interpret them, they can speak for themselves. Ask for understanding and the knowledge has to come from the understanding of the Law and the Testimony. Isa 8:20 if they speak not according to  those two things there is no light in it! EGW stated this:The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as THE VOICE of ______; they were erring mortals like ourselves. _______has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor. TM p.106 

Blessings!

Forgive me everyone: I tried to correct my grammar and I edited it and it did not take and I don't know why? So I feel I had to provide the corrections so it can be understood clearly. I am just giving the portion that needed correction:

I provided these Protestants because they at one time all believe that the papacy is the beast. I do not accept the Sunday blue law myth. The Bible says keep all the Commandments and you do not see Revelation mentioning the Sabbath but once. Rev 1:10 If you read your Bible and understood the first vision EGW had it was about the 144,000. She also wrote the book Testimony to the Ministers and Gospel Worker and it was finalized and published just before she died! She said we would have less to say about the papacy. TM p. 112 The son of perdition is not the papacy it is the beast. And both Daniel and Revelation see him destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Dan 7:11; Rev 19:19 The 144,000 along with those who will rise from the grave with everlasting life; they will finish the work. They will bring in the great multitude out the great tribulation or Time of Trouble. That will last 3 1\2 years. Dan 12:1-3, 7; Rev 11:3-6 Why would THE MOST HIGH raise people from the dead if the remnant was going to be persecuted. That make no sense that is why we need to go back over what we thought was true and realize just like the "shut door," we made an honest mistake. The pioneers all believed what accepted by all Protestants of the day and that is why Uriah Smith book was even accepted by EGW. However, she changed her mind in her book Testimonies to the Ministers and Gospel Workers. She realized Daniel and Revelation were not understood and she made it clear, it would be understood just before YAHSHUA comes. She was so serious about how we should search the Scriptures that she spend a whole chapter on it! She concluded with a sub-chapter of compilation of her work on Daniel and Revelation. TM p. 112-119

SDA seem to think what we have is all concrete and it is not! We must go back and recheck and understand what made us the Ladiociean Church. Why do we need eye salves that are eyes need to be open? The Bible says we are the wretched, naked, and blind. Yet, we think we are rich and need nothing. Why did YAHSHUA state that HIS Kingdom had five wise and five foolish virgins? Did you notice that in Dan 12:3 wise teachers are mention and in Rev 14:4 the 144,000 are called virgins? All of this is part of understanding the beast as EGW clearly states! The Bible clearly states that the beast is the 8th and the kings who join with him that have not receive their kingdoms yet will hate the whore (that is the Catholic Church). Paul also gives more detail about the son of perdition that YAHSHUA stated as well. John 17:12; 2 Th 2:3-12

Then the Bible says both about the beast and Babylon has one hour. If you look at Dan 12:7, 11, 12; the Bible gives you three different times: 1, 260; 1,290; 1,335! It then says blessed be those who wait for 1,335. If you subtract 1,290 from 1,335 you get 75 days. Now if you understand knowledge and wisdom from THE HOLY SPIRIT, you return to Revelation. Rev 11:7, 13; 14:7; 17:12; 8:10, 17, 19 all have to do with an hour; this is not spiritual but prophetic and Daniel provides the time. One hour prophetic base on Ezekiel prophecy of a day=year; than one hour = 60 or two months! The beast does not appear until after the Gospel is completed, that takes 1,260 days or literally 3 1/2 years. The first text above states clearly that once it is completed then the beast comes from the bottomless pit. So that proves right there no one at this time knows who the beast is!!!!!! Then the next verse let you know what actual city is Babylon because it is called the great city and spiritually Sodom and Egypt. But it also clearly states it is where YAHSHUA was crucified! Also verse 2 definitely provides the truth also that it is Jerusalem known as the holy city. Once the Gospel is finish then probation begins and lasted on two months. During that time the Judgment of ELOHIYM has come for the wicked they are lost! During that same hour a great event takes place. All religions will be toss aside to worship the beast. The only one that will depose him is the whore and her harlots: Judaic and Protestants (include SDA who are lost which is the majority). There will be a battle for supremacy that my friend is the battle of Armageddon and Jerusalem and the papacy and her harlots will fall. The beast will sit in the temple that they build during the Time of Trouble. During the battle, like a thief in the night YAHSHUA and HIS angels are on the way to earth. The FATHER tells the righteous who had scattered like Elijah, where their bread and water is supplied. HE gives the exact time HIS SON is coming. It takes 15 days with all the host of Heaven to get to the earth and that is the blessing to wait for 1,335 days! The wicked do not understand THE VOICE of THE MOST HIGH

This  just a small synopsis because the false prophet, the image to the beast, bottomless pit, the angel with key to the bottomless pit, the smoke/locust/scorpion and more must be included into the story to understand it all. Let me say this, the Old Testament will provide the clues to understanding and be part of the last days events!

The image to the beast has truly been overlook in this church. The lamblike beast has power to give life to the image that it comes alive and speaks!  Nowhere does it state that if you do not worship the beast you will be killed; instead you must worship the image and many who don't worship it will be killed! This need to be check out and you will be shock what you will find!!!

I am a presenter and I hope you don't be close minded, but be like the Bereans, check out what I have presented along with the Scriptures with prayer. See if these things are so, then through prayer make your decision. Do not take me or anyone's word! If it is true then THE HOLY SPIRIT Will prove all things to you, but you have to study, do diligently research and read the Scriptures exactly as they state. We must stop trying to interpret them, they can speak for themselves. Ask for understanding and the knowledge has to come from the understanding of the Law and the Testimony. Isa 8:20 if they speak not according to  those two things there is no light in it! EGW stated this: The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as THE VOICE of ______; they were erring mortals like ourselves. _______has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor. TM p.106

Blessings!