The Investigative Judgment

[B/W Photodude]

On June 22, 2018 at 11:53 PM, The Wanderer said:

I dont know of any scripture which would separate these two ideas and make them non-concurrent events. Where and how does scripture draw that line?

Actually, they are current events. Even on the day of atonement, the daily sacrifices  continued. In like manner, sins are still forgiven even to the end of the probation.

On June 23, 2018 at 1:38 AM, The Wanderer said:

well; I do not know of any scripture that would support this point. How should we explain the following then?

I am not sure this scripture agrees with either opinion!

This is the verse that has me rethinking the entire sanctuary message. Not doubting it, just seeing it differently:

 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Revelation 21:22

Looking at the context, John is seeing the New Jerusalem coming down to this earth out of heaven.

(I have been out of town lately with no computer access. Therefore scarcely seen here! Currently traveling home from New York City [the Bronx to the Appalachians!] bringing the granddaughters to our home for two months, Age 7 & 3. This should be fun!)

[B/W Photodude]

On June 24, 2018 at 2:59 AM, Gustave said:

Do you believe that the SDA Investigative Judgement ( as in 1844 ) was foretold by the Old Testament?

Yes! It is better understood from the Bible both New and Old Testaments. In fact, it should be understood clearly from the Bible, and gasp(!), not from EGW. I agree with one writer who said that if you understand what the Bible says, you will understand and agree with EGW. If you try and understand something from EGW before the Bible, you will not understand either. (Roughly what was said)

[B/W Photodude]

On June 25, 2018 at 9:50 PM, Gustave said:

Ellen White voraciously wrote that up to the point that Jesus died He could have sinned and lost His salvation. The I.J. mechanism appears to put Jesus on a type of probationary merit system that requires that He fulfil each and every minute "type" found in the Old Covenant sacrificial system used by the Jew's.

Jesus actually broke some of the laws of the religious Jews of His time.

As far as sinning, I believe that He could have, but chose not to. One of the problems with understanding Him sinning or not is in understanding just what sin actually is, and I am convinced that most, including myself, do not really fully understand what sin even is. Still studying the matter and hope to find more answers soon, but I do believe God is waiting to show me and everyone else great things and even such things as what sin really is.

[B/W Photodude]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

Your grand-daughters are at the perfect age! They should have you trained before the eight weeks are finished!

Actually, they accomplished that last year!. However, they went home so different people were wondering what happened to the little girls that went into the mountains. Turned them into little monkeys with their physical activity. The younger one didn't want to meet new people but went home with hugs for everyone! So, they came with a short list of things for us to work on this year. 

[Gustave]

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:47 PM, hch said:

Gustave,

Excellent observation! (regarding 'And being in torments in THE GRAVE he lifted his eyes up and saw Abraham afar off' Luke 16,23) In this parable, this would be a reference to the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the only place where sinners will be burned, even though it was designed for the devil and his angels.

These would be correct: 

the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death AND THE GRAVE delivered up the dead who were  in THEM' Rev 20,13 

then death and THE GRAVE were cast into the lake of fire' Rev 20,14

Makes perfect sense since the dead are dead until they are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire. There is no other option unless Satan's lie is true.

Re Acts 23:8 "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both."

There are 3 items listed there 1) no resurrection, 2) neither angel,3) nor spirit

but the Pharisees confess both.

Both: 1) resurrection 2) angels and [evil] spirits (which are fallen angels) ? Strong uses  spirits in that way
"3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men"

 

Jesus did not contradict God's warning: ye shall surely die in the day that you eat of the tree...

Thus Rachel's comments earlier in this discussion are worthy of consideration. She said in effect that... the saints that are sleeping in their graves are alive to God, because He is going to wake them to eternal life. This is not true with the wicked. They will be awakened, but only to be cast into the lake of fire and to receive eternal death.

hch,

Your denial that the Apostles and Jesus taught in a conscious afterlife between death and resurrection of the body is common among Adventist groups. In the case of SDA's the soul sleeping doctrine was simply the determinative outcome of the Investigative Judgement. 

"For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body,  whether by life or by death.  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better".

There is simply no way out of admitting that Paul taught he could be alive in the flesh OR departing his flesh and being WITH Christ, & that was far better. 

The Sadducees didn't believe in Spirits or Angels or the Resurrection and when the Sadducees came to Jesus in an attempt to make a fool out of Him pertaining to who's wife the woman would be after she had been married to all the brothers Jesus SLAMS the Sadducees. The Sadducees ONLY asked the one question poking fun at the resurrection but Jesus didn't stop at answering that one question, he continued exposing their errors. 

Acts 23,8 : For the Sad′ducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

In the prior verse Paul identified himself AS A PHARASEE. Therefore, Paul is telling you he believed not just in angels but in addition to that he believed in the resurrection AND in spirts. 

Question of the Sadducees: "In the resurrection who's wife will she be"? 

Jesus' answers the Sadducees: "Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God?  For when they rise from the dead [ Resurrection Confirmed to be real by Jesus ], they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven [ angels confirmed to be real by Jesus ]. And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, HOW GOD SAID TO HIM 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB, HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, BUT OF THE LIVING, YOU ARE QUITE WRONG". 

So, with respect hch I'm telling you that you are quite wrong. 

Seriously though, despite around 100 explicit texts in Scripture saying that there was ZERO chance of Jesus failing Ellen White repeatedly taught that there was a real chance that Jesus could have failed and had He done so 'God' would have had to annihilate Christ and He would have been boiling with maggots. With this fact so well known it hardly shocks me you would ignore or try to explain away plain texts that say the spirit of man continues after the death of body - you've done the same thing with the peccability issue. 

 

 

 

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

Jesus actually broke some of the laws of the religious Jews of His time.

As far as sinning, I believe that He could have, but chose not to. One of the problems with understanding Him sinning or not is in understanding just what sin actually is, and I am convinced that most, including myself, do not really fully understand what sin even is. Still studying the matter and hope to find more answers soon, but I do believe God is waiting to show me and everyone else great things and even such things as what sin really is.

100% contrary to the Scriptures. The Trinity explicitly said it was IMPOSSIBLE that Christ could fail.  

[hch]

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

hch,

Your denial that the Apostles and Jesus taught in a conscious afterlife between death and resurrection of the body is common among Adventist groups. In the case of SDA's the soul sleeping doctrine was simply the determinative outcome of the Investigative Judgement. 

"For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body,  whether by life or by death.  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better".

There is simply no way out of admitting that Paul taught he could be alive in the flesh OR departing his flesh and being WITH Christ, & that was far better. 

The Sadducees didn't believe in Spirits or Angels or the Resurrection and when the Sadducees came to Jesus in an attempt to make a fool out of Him pertaining to who's wife the woman would be after she had been married to all the brothers Jesus SLAMS the Sadducees. The Sadducees ONLY asked the one question poking fun at the resurrection but Jesus didn't stop at answering that one question, he continued exposing their errors. 

Acts 23,8 : For the Sad′ducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

In the prior verse Paul identified himself AS A PHARASEE. Therefore, Paul is telling you he believed not just in angels but in addition to that he believed in the resurrection AND in spirts. 

Question of the Sadducees: "In the resurrection who's wife will she be"? 

Jesus' answers the Sadducees: "Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God?  For when they rise from the dead [ Resurrection Confirmed to be real by Jesus ], they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven [ angels confirmed to be real by Jesus ]. And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, HOW GOD SAID TO HIM 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB, HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, BUT OF THE LIVING, YOU ARE QUITE WRONG". 

So, with respect hch I'm telling you that you are quite wrong. 

Seriously though, despite around 100 explicit texts in Scripture saying that there was ZERO chance of Jesus failing Ellen White repeatedly taught that there was a real chance that Jesus could have failed and had He done so 'God' would have had to annihilate Christ and He would have been boiling with maggots. With this fact so well known it hardly shocks me you would ignore or try to explain away plain texts that say the spirit of man continues after the death of body - you've done the same thing with the peccability issue. 

 

 

 

Gustave,

Either the Scriptures are true or they are not.

God said that man would die if they ate of the tree. When the living soul dies, it is dead until the resurrection.

Satan said that they would not die. The serpent argued that God lied. I will not agree with the serpent to say that truth is WRONG.

Misunderstanding Paul and Jesus will make God a liar. 

Thus to have Scripture align with TRUTH, we must conclude that there is misunderstanding of what the Bible says.

Stay with the truth and the difficult passages will be made clear in God's time.

The two last deceptions are spiritualism (a belief that the dead are living spirits)  and Sunday sacredness.

In my study of Scriptures, Satan will appear pretending to be the living Pope John-Paul II. And the world that does not have a Bible understanding that this man is dead, he knows nothing, he is not praising God, he does not return to his papal home, he cannot go from earth to heaven, etc., will be deceived. Satan posing as this man will be able to argue that this is his spiritual body; look at his body in the grave and see that it is so. Then when he says that he gave us the truth about Sunday in Dies Domoni, he will deceive those by the very lie Satan told in the beginning...you will not surely die. Satan pretending to be John-Paul II will claim that he will return to heaven and send Jesus to comfort us. When he vanishes, he will reappear as pretending to be Jesus and the world that is not firmly resting upon the Bible truth that God blessed Adventists with that the dead are dead, will be deceived. This will soon happen and our only defense is to know that God is TRUTH and His word is SURE.

Thank you for sharing. I will prayerfully commit you to the Holy Spirit to guide you to all truth. He will lead as much as we will follow.

But if we reach the point that we refuse to follow, He will not be able to lead us past that point.

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, hch said:

Gustave,

Either the Scriptures are true or they are not.

God said that man would die if they ate of the tree. When the living soul dies, it is dead until the resurrection.

Satan said that they would not die. The serpent argued that God lied. I will not agree with the serpent to say that truth is WRONG.

Misunderstanding Paul and Jesus will make God a liar. 

Thus to have Scripture align with TRUTH, we must conclude that there is misunderstanding of what the Bible says.

Stay with the truth and the difficult passages will be made clear in God's time.

The two last deceptions are spiritualism (a belief that the dead are living spirits)  and Sunday sacredness.

In my study of Scriptures, Satan will appear pretending to be the living Pope John-Paul II. And the world that does not have a Bible understanding that this man is dead, he knows nothing, he is not praising God, he does not return to his papal home, he cannot go from earth to heaven, etc., will be deceived. Satan posing as this man will be able to argue that this is his spiritual body; look at his body in the grave and see that it is so. Then when he says that he gave us the truth about Sunday in Dies Domoni, he will deceive those by the very lie Satan told in the beginning...you will not surely die. Satan pretending to be John-Paul II will claim that he will return to heaven and send Jesus to comfort us. When he vanishes, he will reappear as pretending to be Jesus and the world that is not firmly resting upon the Bible truth that God blessed Adventists with that the dead are dead, will be deceived. This will soon happen and our only defense is to know that God is TRUTH and His word is SURE.

Thank you for sharing. I will prayerfully commit you to the Holy Spirit to guide you to all truth. He will lead as much as we will follow.

But if we reach the point that we refuse to follow, He will not be able to lead us past that point.

1. Scripture IS true

God said "man" would die - man is a combination of biological matter PLUS the soul that God infuses into each person - at the death of the body the soul ( which Scripture says is personalized ) is separated from the body. "For just as the body WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, so also faith without works is dead". In any event Adam and Eve did not physically die within the day they ate of the forbidden tree SO you can conclude the death was separation of man from his God - and that clearly happened. 

2. Satan twists things - you need to re-read Genesis. 

Satan implied to Eve that God said they weren't to eat of ANY TREE in the garden - Eve added to God's commandment by claiming God said if they even touched it they would die. Did God say that hch? Satan poured a new and different meaning into what God said - You appear to be perpetuating Satan's meaning. 

3. Jesus publically 3 well known errors of the Sadducees.

The Bible says the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection of the body, didn't believe in angels & didn't believe that man had a spirit that continued after death. Jesus answered all three of the Sadducees errors affirming to them in front of everyone that they were WRONG. This correction must have been important OTHERWISE Jesus would NOT have answered questions the Sadducees didn't ask. 

4. Satan will appear to be the living Pope John-Paul II!

Now that's a new one! LOL! I don't even know how to respond to that. But again, you believe the Bible allows for a peccable creature Christ so anything to include Satan masquerading as Pope John Paul 2nd is possible.

I'll prayerfully commit you to the Holy Spirit as well - I do appreciate your being so honest and up front in what you believe.  

 

[B/W Photodude]

20 hours ago, Gustave said:

100% contrary to the Scriptures. The Trinity explicitly said it was IMPOSSIBLE that Christ could fail.  

Don't recall the "Trinity" ever actually speaking in the Scriptures. So, you will have to provide a reference to this claim. If it was impossible for Him to fail, then it was an unfair demand or "encouragement" that we be perfect.

[B/W Photodude]

20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

(1)I was wondering what you think of the idea that we may have missed the boat a little, and that perhaps, this "temple" that needs "cleansing" is actually us?
 

(2)Could this idea explain the why of Rev 21:22??

Actually, I believe based on what I have read that is God as the temple and individual persons being temple, both need cleansing. Jesus took on our sins and they were carried into the sanctuary where they remain. They were not thrown into the depths of the sea but remain on the books in heaven until judgement. Whenever God removes them completely from His memory, then His temple (Himself) is cleansed. The sins of the righteous will be so removed that even God Himself not be able to remember them. And if God cannot remember them, neither will the sealed people of God during the time of trouble. And also, neither will Satan as he will not be able to torment God's people with a litany of things they did wrong in an attempt to make them lose faith.

Humans need to cleanse their temple by removing known sinful practices from their lives. Abhoring evil and refusing even on the pain of death to do any sin against God will characterize God's end time people and many before then.

2. John pretty much emphatically stated that "the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it". Last time I checked, neither one was my name.

[B/W Photodude]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

while this might be true, its still a very far stretch to try and say that "God needs cleansing." 

Jesus did take our sins upon Himself. He died for them. In the desert sanctuary, the sins of the people were were carried into the sanctuary and kept there until the Day of Atonement. Then the sins of those who repented and had brought them too the sanctuary with the appropriate sacrifice had them transferred to the goat sent into the wilderness. In the greater scheme of the meanings, God took our sins and now must dispose of them. He must cleanse Himself, as the sanctuary*, of our sins and we must cleanse ourselves of the desire to sins. (Don't get too carried away by that "cleanse ourselves." It is not the issue in this post.)

*sanc·tu·ar·y

1. a place of refuge or safety

 

Is not God our sanctuary?

[Gustave]

13 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Don't recall the "Trinity" ever actually speaking in the Scriptures. So, you will have to provide a reference to this claim. If it was impossible for Him to fail, then it was an unfair demand or "encouragement" that we be perfect.

Daniel 2,45: According as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and broke in pieces, the clay, and the iron, and the brass, and the silver, and the gold, the great God hath shewn the king what shall come to pass hereafter, AND the dream is true, AND the interpretation thereof is faithful

I'm assuming that you would agree that the great God that explained the King's dream to Daniel would be God the Father, no? I'm also assuming that you would agree that this great God said the dream was true and the interpretation is faithful. That has God the Father saying that the events in Daniel's dream FOR SURE ARE GOING TO HAPPEN. Had Christ failed it wouldn't have happened.

 

Luke 2, 25: And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; Because my eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples: A light to the revelation of the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

God the Holy Spirit told Simeon that he would not die UNTIL or before Simeon had seen "THE CHRIST OF THE LORD" - you would agree that someone who failed could not be the Christ - therefore Simeon was allowed to die because Simeon's own eyes witnessed Salvation by seeing and holding the Baby Jesus. It's either this or Simeon would have to be alive still today IF Jesus had failed. We can be certain Jesus wouldn't fail because Simeon stated that HE WAS DISMISSED ( he could finally die ). 

 

Mark 10, 32 : And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem: and Jesus went before them, and they were astonished; and following were afraid. And taking again the twelve, he began to tell them the things that should befall him. Saying: Behold we go up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man shall be betrayed to the chief priests, and to the scribes and ancients, and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles. And they shall mock him, and spit on him, and scourge him, and kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Jesus ( God the Son ), after His Resurrection tells His Apostles He told them all these things had to happen ( would happen ) before He was crucified. 

 

Luke 24,44: And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. And he said to them: Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise again from the dead, the third day: And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

These Scriptures are "representative" of nearly 100 equally explicit texts that state there was absolutely zero chance of failure of The Christ. 

The concept that Jesus was "capable of VICE" & therefore capable of loosing his salvation was taught by the Bishop Arius and that is why groups that have Arian DNA such as the JW's, Christadelphians, WWCOG and SDA's all maintain that Christ could have sinned & lost His salvation. 

It's NOT a FARCE or unfair demand that we be perfect, it's what we shoot (try for) - it's ONLY the blood of Jesus that makes us perfect combined with our genuine effort.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

14 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

 

Humans need to cleanse their temple by removing known sinful practices from their lives. Abhoring evil and refusing even on the pain of death to do any sin against God will characterize God's end time people and many before then.

2. John pretty much emphatically stated that "the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it". Last time I checked, neither one was my name.

Since without Jesus we can do nothing, and Jesus came to fulfill what we could not do without flaw, I would suggest we put our trust in what Jesus asks of us and trust in His promises.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14   25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...Romans 3;  13  I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me...Philippians

19 He will again have compassion on us, And will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins Into the depths of the sea.  Micah 7

 

What has all that to do with the temple?

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?...1 Corinthians 3

I can't remember where this started. However it seemed to be worth noting.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

These Scriptures are "representative" of nearly 100 equally explicit texts that state there was absolutely zero chance of failure of The Christ. 

The concept that Jesus was "capable of VICE" & therefore capable of loosing his salvation was taught by the Bishop Arius and that is why groups that have Arian DNA such as the JW's, Christadelphians, WWCOG and SDA's all maintain that Christ could have sinned & lost His salvation. 

The fact that God could accurately predict the outcome of the mission of Jesus to this earth in no way diminishes His capability of making a wrong choice and committing a sin. I would also suggest He had to come to all these decision moments much the same way any fallen human would except He did have the relationship with His Father that He carefully maintained all His life.

If you carefully study His life, you will see the key to becoming like Him. Previous failures does not mean that fallen humans cannot reach the place of no longer sinning. I think people confuse what they have done with what God can make of them if given over to His watchcare. Jesus and His apostles were not setting a bar impossibly high in telling us to "be perfect like our Father in heaven is perfect" and similar statements.

A similar failed idea comes from John 3:16, when Jesus noted He came to save the world. That hasn't happened.

[Gustave]

11 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

The fact that God could accurately predict the outcome of the mission of Jesus to this earth in no way diminishes His capability of making a wrong choice and committing a sin. I would also suggest He had to come to all these decision moments much the same way any fallen human would except He did have the relationship with His Father that He carefully maintained all His life.

If you carefully study His life, you will see the key to becoming like Him. Previous failures does not mean that fallen humans cannot reach the place of no longer sinning. I think people confuse what they have done with what God can make of them if given over to His watchcare. Jesus and His apostles were not setting a bar impossibly high in telling us to "be perfect like our Father in heaven is perfect" and similar statements.

A similar failed idea comes from John 3:16, when Jesus noted He came to save the world. That hasn't happened.

That WASN'T a prediction - it WAS predestination for those who WOULD accept it. 

Isa 14, 24: The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
 
Isa 46,9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
 
Romans 8,28 : And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

G4309: Of God decreeing from Eternity / Decide BEFOREHAND 
 
Eph 1,4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

G4309: Of God decreeing from Eternity / Decide BEFOREHAND

The next few would be good to each read a couple times.

Psalm 33,11: But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through ALL generations

Proverbs 19,21: Many are the plans in a person’s heart, BUT it is the LORD’s purpose that prevails

Isaiah 14,24: The LORD Almighty has sworn, “Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, AND as I have purposed, so it will happen

Ephesians 1,9: he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he PURPOSED in Christ

Ephesians 1,10: to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

2 Timothy 1,8: Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the GOSPEL according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, WHICH WAS GIVEN US in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Here is Jesus' understanding of the matter - followed by your Arian caveat 

John 6,50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world [ IF I DON"T SIN AND LOOSE MY SALVATION! ]

IMHO you've missed the great truth of the Gospel in that we already have been saved by Christ before the earth was even created - it was NEVER a matter of "IF" we would be saved & by WHO we would be saved, it was ONLY a matter of WHEN. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Is man conscious after death - before resurrection - either in torment, or in Heaven? 

Could Jesus Christ have sinned?

Did God choose the redeemed beforehand, and exclude those not predestined?

Did Jesus preach to "spirits in prison" between His physical death, and His resurrection in His new "spiritual body" ? 

We could run a whole thread on just one of these topics. 

[8thdaypriest]

THE BODY

2 Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (NKJ)

THREE different states of being are addressed in the passage. 

1) "in the body" - "earthly house" - "this tent"

2) "unclothed" - "naked"

3) "a building from God, a house not made with hands" - "clothed with our habitation from heaven" - "clothed"

1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Paul does not mind the idea that his "earthly body" will be destroyed.   He looks forward with great desire to being "further clothed" with his new "house" (or "tent") that is eternal.  In the new "house" Paul will someday be "present with the LORD".  He will no longer be present in His "earthly house". 

But what state is described by "naked" - or without a body, "tent", or "house" of any type?   Is this not death?  

    Romans 8:22,23 “. . . even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.”

        NOTE:  If we are NOT fully adopted into the family of God until "the redemption of our bodies", then we are not adopted as disembodied spirits immediately at death.  The dead do not receive bodies, until the return of Christ, when He will call the dead forth (1Thess 4:16). 

NO BODY - NO LIFE

        Genesis 5:24  Enoch’s body was never found after he was translated to heaven without seeing death (Heb. 11:5).

2 Kings 2:11,16-17   Elijah went up in a fiery chariot to heaven.  The empty shell of his body didn’t fall back to earth.  

        Elijah was TYPE (a living symbol) of those who will be living to see Christ come - who will be translated without seeing death.  (Their bodies will be “changed”- not shed.)

1 Corinthians 15:51 " For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we [the living] shall be changed."

        Moses was a TYPE of those who will be resurrected when Christ returns. (They will receive new spiritual bodies.)  On the Mount of Transfiguration Christ stood with Moses and Elijah (Mark 9:2-4). This was a miniature representation of His coming kingdom - all who would be saved by His coming sacrificial death - some resurrected, and others translated without seeing death.

    Jude 9  Michael contended with Satan for the body of Moses.

        If Moses (as a spirit) had already gone to Heaven, why this conflict over possession of the His corpse?  The Son of God wanted to resurrect Moses, and to take him to Heaven.  Satan wanted Moses to stay dead.  At this point in time, no person had ever been resurrected from the dead.  

Romans 5:14  “. . . death reigned from Adam to Moses.”

Something involving the reign of death - changed with Moses.      

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

DID CHRIST PREACH TO SOULS IN HELL, between His death and His resurrection ?

    1 Peter 3:18-20  “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”

 First:  Christ was “made alive” by the Spirit of God His Father (Rom. 8:11, Gal. 1:1). 

Second:  By this same Spirit - of God His Father -  He (the Son of God) once preached to those who were disobedient in the days of Noah.  The preaching was done in the "days of Noah".

Third:  Peter is making the point that the Spirit who resurrected Christ is THE SAME SPIRIT by Whom He once preached in the days of Noah.  

Fourth:  He (Christ) preached through Noah.  Christ testified through all of the Old Testament prophets (1Peter 1:11).  He did not preach to them directly - in person.  His spirit was "in" the prophets. 

Fifth:  The preaching was done back “in the days of Noah.”

Compare 1 Peter 4:6: “The gospel was preached (past tense) to those who are dead” (present tense).  It was preached to them in the past, while they were still alive.
    
 Sixth:   The word “Hell” is NOT in this passage.    The people of Noah’s day were called “spirits in prison” because their minds or hearts (pneuma) were in bondage to Satan and sin. (Compare Ps. 142:7;  Isa. 42:6,7;  Isa. 61:1;  Lk 4:18).

1Peter 3:18-20 can be interpreted in more than one way, depending on the interpreter's presuppositions.  It is therefore NOT a proof text. 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

In other words, according to what you have written, Jesus lied when He said "It is finished?"

There is nowhere in scripture that Jesus HAS to follow every iota that we see in the OT Sanctuary. Thats not even the purpose of it; it was all looking forward to the crucifixion, after which the OT forms and rituals are not needed. If the cross wasn't enough, then why does the Bible say: " 

WHAT WAS "FINISHED" when Jesus died?  

Yes - His fight against Satan - waged as a human being - was finished.  He won.  He won the right to "save" anyone who would come to the Father in His name. 

But did His death - at that moment - render me "saved"?  I wasn't even born yet. 

Upon His death, Christ WON the right to save.  He did not literally, actually "save" all human beings.   To "save" human beings, He needed to be raised, and to baptize His followers with the Holy Spirit, to direct them, to empower them - to continue the war against the forces of evil. 

The war with Satan was NOT FINISHED.  The contest for human beings - was not over - when Christ died on the cross.  He did NOT "save" every human being.  There was still a long battle ahead, to bring the news of His victory to the human race, and to bring those who would "hear" to belief and surrender.  

The Spring Feasts depict in symbol the death of Christ (as the Passover Lamb) and His victorious presentation as "the Firstfruit".  

The Summer Feast - Pentecost, depicts the harvest to follow His return to the Father's right hand.

The Fall Feasts - Day of Atonement and Tabernacles - depict the final events of this "age" - the rendering of sentence and the execution of sentence upon Satan and his, and then the Harvest celebration for Christ and His.

I do believe that many who served the LORD faithfully during the Old Testament period, were resurrected by Christ, just after He was himself raised.   These people He took with Him to Heaven, to serve as witnesses and elders.  Yes.  Those people were (actually, literally, past tense) "saved" by Christ, when He raised them and gave them eternal life. 

[8thdaypriest]

11 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

What could JESUS possibly have "finished" if HE still needs a quick cleanse Himself somewhere in the alleged line of prophecy where WE tell Him that He must?

His personal battle with Satan - as a man - was "finished". 

"Still needs a quick cleanse" - what are you talking about? 

[8thdaypriest]

22 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

its been said a number of times now in this and other topics that Jesus needs cleansing. ergo the OT sanctuary protocols. IF that was the case; then it is NOT finished

The "sin offering" (regardless of the animal used) represented Jesus. 

The blood of the "sin offering" was the cleansing agent.  The lamb wasn't dirty, and did not "need cleansing". 

The Lamb was innocent.  That is why it represented Christ. 

The sinner needed - desired - "atonement" (reconciliation) - with God.  The blood of the Lamb, presented by the priest - effected that reconciliation. 

The priest also represented Jesus.  The priest would "make atonement" for the repentant sinner by pouring some blood from the sacrifice at the base of the Alter of Sacrifice, or on special occasions by sprinkling the blood before "the veil" inside the Tabernacle - the veil that separated the two apartments.  The priests also ate some of the sin offering.  By taking that offering into themselves, and then entering the Tabernacle, they carried the record of that sacrifice.  Jesus - as High Priest, carries the record of His sacrifice.  The scars are still visible. 

It is "the Sanctuary" that needs "cleansing".   Daniel 8:14 - "then shall the Sanctuary be cleansed".  

The blood of the Lamb, presented by the High Priest, cleanses the Sanctuary. 

How could Heaven (the true Tabernacle) need "cleansing" ?   What got dirty? 

Answer:  God's reputation.  Satan sullied it, with His lies that God is responsible for the sin and therefore He is responsible for the pain that His creation suffers.  God allowed sin to exist, and has allowed sin to continue on earth - for some 6000 years.  The immense, piled up record of sin and pain must be reconciled with the claim that God is just - and merciful. 

The word translated as "cleansed" in Daniel 8:14, is

06663 qd;c' tsadaq {tsaw-dak'}
Meaning:  1) to be just, be righteous 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to have a just cause, be in the right 1a2) to be justified 1a3) to be just (of God) 1a4) to be just, be righteous (in conduct and character) 1b) (Niphal) to be put or made right, be justified 1c) (Piel) justify, make to appear righteous, make someone righteous 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to do or bring justice (in administering law) 1d2) to declare righteous, justify 1d3) to justify, vindicate the cause of

When the Sanctuary is "cleansed" - the cause of God and God Himself, is declared "just" and "righteous" and "in the right".  His actions - throughout the history of His creation, are declared just and righteous.  God is vindicated!   This happens - NOT because God declares Himself righteous.  It happens because created beings, acting as judges,  declare Him just and righteous, based upon the evidence. 

"The judgment" which "cleanses" the Sanctuary (Heaven itself) - is NOT ABOUT US.   It is about God.  We are evidence - His treatment of us that is. 

I realize that most folks cannot understand the idea that God could be accused of wrong.  I think the strongest evidence that this was indeed the case, is the rebellion of Satan.  Satan didn't like the way God was governing His creation.  Why else would He have rebelled?  He thought that he could run things better.   His Creator had to give him time to demonstrate that this was NOT the case - that his way would end in chaos and tragedy. 

[8thdaypriest]

What was "finished"? 

I believe that Jesus proved to the universe of created beings, that God is love, and is just. 

Jesus prayed, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify You." (John 17:1)  "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. (John 17:4) 

Jesus "work" was to glorify His Father.  He "finished" THAT WORK! 

Human beings who "saw" the character of the Father in Christ, were reconciled to God.   They became "one" with the Father - in heart. 

The final "cleansing of the Sanctuary" could have taken place right then.   All the "evidence" needed - was there.   Satan had proved himself a liar and a murderer.  God had proved Himself infinitely loving, forgiving, and patient.  

But God held off.  He delayed the full and final execution of justice.  Why? 

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

If God had executed justice 2000 years ago, I would not exist.  I'm glad He waited, so that I could be in His kingdom.  I imagine Him saying, "Just a little longer.  We can win a few more."

I personally believe that He will wait until the world is completely consumed by wickedness, to the point, that He can win no one else.  Every witness for the truth will be dead or in solitary confinement.  Every means of communication will be controlled by the "Little Horn" power.  

I realize the delay has been very costly, in terms of death and suffering.  Only as we experience the healing of Christ in the Kingdom to come, will we fully agree that the wait was worth it. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

THIS makes me very confused about God, who and what He is. To me; I read this, and it makes me think that my salvation simply depends on ME and the steps I "must" take, and then bossing Jesus around, and telling HIM the steps we feel He must take. I think thats why the Apostle said

I'm so sorry, if what I have posted caused you to feel this way.  I do NOT feel that my salvation depends on me.  I know that Jesus wants me, and His Father wants me - enough to die for me - enough to feel all the pain of every created being who has suffered because of sin.  The ONLY thing that I must do - is CONSENT to be indwelt by Christ my Savior.  

Before I can CONSENT, I must believe that my Creator exists, and that He is good.   The life and death of Christ gives evidence to convince me.  History, archeology, creation science, miracles - all give me evidence, so that I can come to belief and consent.  All these things were and are provided by HIM.   

Once I consent - the job then becomes HIS.  "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; (Phi 1:6 NKJ).  That's a promise!

There are times when I feel so weak, the only prayer I can speak is, "Hang on to me Jesus."   I believe that He will. 

The word "judgment" is a very scary word.   It makes us feel vulnerable.  It shouldn't.  Not if we belong to Jesus.  

[B/W Photodude]

On June 30, 2018 at 4:23 PM, The Wanderer said:

In other words, according to what you have written, Jesus lied when He said "It is finished?"

There is nowhere in scripture that Jesus HAS to follow every iota that we see in the OT Sanctuary. Thats not even the purpose of it; it was all looking forward to the crucifixion, after which the OT forms and rituals are not needed. If the cross wasn't enough, then why does the Bible say: "

It doesnt sound like Jesus has to fiddle around in the sanctuary to get rid of our sins. Once His shed blood is accepted, we are covered. No more OT sanctuary hooplahs needed.

Since Jesus said He is the Truth,  why would I even suggest that He lied? So, if He didn't lie and is the truth, then perhaps the real story of the plan of redemption is not understood. Jesus did allude numerous times that people would not understand and spoke in parables, the sanctuary service is indeed a parable of the act of redemption, and then perhaps the parable is not being understood by many.

If it indeed was all finished on the cross, 2000 years ago, why are we still here on this earth enduring what we are enduring? I would suggest that "It is finished" was not referring to the whole plan of salvation and there was much more to be accomplished in the millenias to come. I think sometimes the cross is really misunderstood and definitely misapplied in the whole process of redemption. Given the fallen human heart of selfishness, we even think that redemption is all about us! We are only a small part of this whole plan of redemption and God was not only saving us, but He was saving His entire universe!

I get that Scripture nowhere says that Jesus has to follow every iota of the sanctuary service, but that does not mean that he would not. EVERY part of the sanctuary service had meaning and in the earthly sanctuary every part was symbolic of that meaning. I tend to believe God is a god of order and does not waste symbols as to do so would only confuse those seeking Truth. And of course, being a God of Truth to have parts of the sanctuary service that have no meaning mixed with things that have meaning only leads to confusion.

I think I can assure you, Jesus is not "fiddling around" in the sanctuary. This is eternal life and death stuff going on and no one takes it more seriously than God does.

[hch]

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 12:28 PM, Gustave said:

1. Scripture IS true

God said "man" would die - man is a combination of biological matter PLUS the soul that God infuses into each person - at the death of the body the soul ( which Scripture says is personalized ) is separated from the body. "For just as the body WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, so also faith without works is dead". In any event Adam and Eve did not physically die within the day they ate of the forbidden tree SO you can conclude the death was separation of man from his God - and that clearly happened. 

2. Satan twists things - you need to re-read Genesis. 

Satan implied to Eve that God said they weren't to eat of ANY TREE in the garden - Eve added to God's commandment by claiming God said if they even touched it they would die. Did God say that hch? Satan poured a new and different meaning into what God said - You appear to be perpetuating Satan's meaning. 

3. Jesus publically 3 well known errors of the Sadducees.

The Bible says the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection of the body, didn't believe in angels & didn't believe that man had a spirit that continued after death. Jesus answered all three of the Sadducees errors affirming to them in front of everyone that they were WRONG. This correction must have been important OTHERWISE Jesus would NOT have answered questions the Sadducees didn't ask. 

4. Satan will appear to be the living Pope John-Paul II!

Now that's a new one! LOL! I don't even know how to respond to that. But again, you believe the Bible allows for a peccable creature Christ so anything to include Satan masquerading as Pope John Paul 2nd is possible.

I'll prayerfully commit you to the Holy Spirit as well - I do appreciate your being so honest and up front in what you believe.  

 

 

Gustave, I had a great reply that vanished when I hit the submit button. Here goes a shorter rewrite:

1) "For just as the body WITHOUT THE BREATH IS DEAD, so also faith without works is dead". {spirit and breath are the same word] "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7)  Gustave wrote: In any event Adam and Eve did not physically die within the day they ate of the forbidden tree SO you can conclude the death was separation of man from his God - and that clearly happened." Do you have evidence that Adam or Eve lived to be older than 1000 years? It is written "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8). God did not lie. They died in the day that they ate of the tree.

2) God told Adam. Adam probably expanded the instruction when he repeated it to Eve. Don't eat it...no don't even touch it.

3)  I dealt with this in an earlier post. nothing has changed.

4) A deep study of Revelation 17 in conjunction with EGW comments on Satan personating Christ is the source for that comment.

It is apparent that we do not read the Scriptures from the same perspective. One day soon, we will discover who is following the text most closely and who is influenced by tradition. But in the meantime God is offering His Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. If we will follow, he will guide...