The Investigative Judgment

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

1 Peter 3:18-20  “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient

You answered your own objection to my post.  When did Jesus preach to the imprisoned fallen spirits? from the context of 1 Peter 3:18-20, it was between His death and resurrection.  Jesus is God; He was never "completely" dead (as in 2nd death dead).  What did Jesus preach to them?  Well, it wasn't a warm fuzzy message.  It was more like "Y'all just lost the war against humanity and My Kingdom.  See you at the judgement". His resurrection was a complete surprise to everyone in the universe (except His Father).

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Underworld? Breaking news to fallen angels? Sorry, I don't buy into that theory that Jesus descended into hell while dead for any conferences with fallen angels.

See 1 Peter 3:18-20 quoted above.  What else could that mean?

[8thdaypriest]

2 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

You answered your own objection to my post.  When did Jesus preach to the imprisoned fallen spirits? from the context of 1 Peter 3:18-20, it was between His death and resurrection.  Jesus is God; He was never "completely" dead (as in 2nd death dead).  What did Jesus preach to them?  Well, it wasn't a warm fuzzy message.  It was more like "Y'all just lost the war against humanity and My Kingdom.  See you at the judgement". His resurrection was a complete surprise to everyone in the universe (except His Father).

Opens soooo many lines of debate.  Was Jesus really "dead" - all of Him?  If not - then He didn't really DIE for us.  Only part of Him died.  

When Jesus was resurrected, was all of Him (including His flesh) resurrected?  I would say yes - because the body disappeared from the tomb, and seeming came back to life with all the marks of the crucifixion. 

Did Jesus travel - invisibly - in the spirit realm, after He was resurrected?  Yes.  Could He have traveled to a "prison" for disobedient angels?  Sure - but only AFTER He was resurrected.  Until then, His spirit was in the hands of His Father, while His body "slept" in the tomb.  There is no consciousness without a body - of some sort, for a human (which Jesus was).  

The whole idea that Jesus was something more than a human, opens up another whole issue for debate.  I believe that the Son of God incarnated to become a man (nothing more).  He was not "glorified" to become what He was with His Father, before the world was - until Pentecost - 50 days AFTER the Feast of Firstfruits.  When He was glorified, He was "made a life-giving Spirit" (1Cor 15:45). 

Bible says He remained on earth with His disciples for 40 days.  Agreed that He was not visible to them every moment. 

Why gloat over your enemies?  What would be the point?  Those "in prison" weren't going to be saved. 

I do not believe it is a salvational issue - the whole thing about demons having sex with women and producing offspring - then being imprisoned in Tartarus.   We can agree to disagree.   I will post when I disagree, and you can post when you disagree. 

[JoeMo]

16 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Did Jesus travel - invisibly - in the spirit realm, after He was resurrected?  Yes.  Could He have traveled to a "prison" for disobedient angels?  Sure - but only AFTER He was resurrected. 

Good point.  I'll give that one to you.

18 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do not believe it is a salvational issue - the whole thing about demons having sex with women and producing offspring - then being imprisoned in Tartarus.   We can agree to disagree.   I will post when I disagree, and you can post when you disagree. 

Also a good point.  I appreciate not only that we can agree to disagree, but that we can do so in an agreeable manner that doesn't impact our friendship.

As far as Jesus' humanity, I am of the opinion that He was fully God and fully man.  I have no idea how that would work - it's one of the eternal mysteries to me.  Jesus had to contain some "God-stuff" in Him when He was on earth.  He accepted worship on several occasions.  Only God can legitimately accept worship.  I believe He also chose to put aside His own Godly power to openly submit to His Father during His human existence.  To do otherwise may have been a reason for satan to call "foul".

[8thdaypriest]

NKJ  1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

They were disobedient ( to God) back in the days before the flood.  Got that.  This verse does not detail the nature of their disobedience. 

NIV  1 Peter 3:19 "After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits--"

Jesus "made proclamation" to the spirits (plural)  by the same Spirit (singular) by which He was "made alive" again.  Bible says God the Father raised His Son from death.  God the Father IS "Spirit" - a spirit being (Ephesians 4:6 "one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.")

Question:  Are humans beings ever referred to as "spirits"?  

We know that angels are called "spirits"  That is all over the place in Scriptures - both "deceiving spirits" and "ministering spirits".

The Hebrew translated as "soul" is "nephesh".  The word translated as "spirit" is "ruwach".   Living souls have the spirit of God - in them.  Living souls can also have the spirit of one (or more) demon spirits - in them.  

 

[8thdaypriest]

3 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Good point.  I'll give that one to you.

Also a good point.  I appreciate not only that we can agree to disagree, but that we can do so in an agreeable manner that doesn't impact our friendship.

As far as Jesus' humanity, I am of the opinion that He was fully God and fully man.  I have no idea how that would work - it's one of the eternal mysteries to me.  Jesus had to contain some "God-stuff" in Him when He was on earth.  He accepted worship on several occasions.  Only God can legitimately accept worship.  I believe He also chose to put aside His own Godly power to openly submit to His Father during His human existence.  To do otherwise may have been a reason for satan to call "foul".

When did Jesus "put aside His own Godly power" ?  I believe it was WHEN He "emptied himself" - just prior to His incarnation.  He had to over come AS A MAN, to win back dominion of the earth FOR mankind.  His divine powers were returned to Him, when He was glorified - at Pentecost.

[JoeMo]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

He had to over come AS A MAN, to win back dominion of the earth FOR mankind.

Then why was it okay for Him to accept worship before His resurrection?  Only God can legitimately accept worship.  At any rate, He voluntarily put aside His Godly power.  I believe He could have snatched it back at any point during His earthly ministry; but He always chose not to of His own free will.  I imagine this was one of His greatest temptations.  Thats why satan kept taunting Him in the wilderness; "If You are the Son of God ..."

[8thdaypriest]

26 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Then why was it okay for Him to accept worship before His resurrection?  Only God can legitimately accept worship.  At any rate, He voluntarily put aside His Godly power.  I believe He could have snatched it back at any point during His earthly ministry; but He always chose not to of His own free will.  I imagine this was one of His greatest temptations.  Thats why satan kept taunting Him in the wilderness; "If You are the Son of God ..."

Why was it OK?

God the Father commanded all His angels to worship His Son.   We worship Him - we are allowed to worship Him - BECAUSE God His Father has commanded that we do so.  When we worship God's Son - we are obeying God the Father. 

[B/W Photodude]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

See 1 Peter 3:18-20 quoted above.  What else could that mean?

There are admittedly still difficult texts in the Bible to understand. Fortunately, I am not alone. However, your idea really does not line up well with the rest of Scripture, especially in regards to the state of the dead. Jesus was dead from His death on the cross until in His tomb He was resurrected. No secret clandestine meetings with the souls which perished before the flood or trips to hell and back. No part of anything under the Sun.

Lesson 18: A Difficult Passage Explained and Applied (1 Peter 3:18-22)

While Peter’s overall point is clear, the details are incredibly complex. Most commentators acknowledge that these are some of the most difficult verses in the New Testament to interpret. Even Martin Luther says that this is perhaps the most obscure passage in the New Testament and admits that he does not know for certain just what Peter means (Commentary on the Epistles of Peter and Jude [Kregel], p. 168).

https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-18-difficult-passage-explained-and-applied-1-peter-318-22

Here and Hereafter - Uriah Smith

The advocates of natural immortality are not long in finding their way to this passage. Here, it is claimed, are “spirits” brought to view, out of the body; for they were the spirits of the antediluvians: and they were conscious and intelligent; for they could listen to the preaching of Christ, who, by his conscious spirit, while his body lay in the grave, went to their prison and preached to them. HHMLD 93.2

Let us see just what conclusions the popular interpretation of this passage involves, that we may test its claims by the Scriptures. 1. It is held that these were disembodied spirits, but they were the spirits of wicked men; for they were disobedient in the day of Noah, and perished in the flood. 2. They were consequently in their place of punishment, the place to which popular theology assigns all such spirits immediately on their passing from this state of existence, - the burning, quenchless hell of fire and brimstone. 3. The spirit of Christ went into this hell to preach to them. These are the facts that are to be cleared to improbabilities, and harmonized with the Scriptures, before the passage can be made available for the popular view. HHMLD 93.3

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/1311.450#452

The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 1 - Leroy Froom

Peter speaks frankly of “some things” in Paul’s writings that are “hard to be understood” (2 Peter 3:16), which some “wrest ... unto their own destruction.” Paul might have responded in kind concerning Peter’s writings. And this passage is one of them. Let us consider it in some detail. But we must beware lest one text be allowed, by reading Platonic Immortal-Soulism into it, to check the whole central current of consistent Scripture teaching. 

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/953.2604#2614
 

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

God the Father commanded all His angels to worship His Son.

Did He command humans to worship the incarnate Jesus during His earthly ministry?  Before I take this discussion any further, I would like to clarify your thought.  Do I understand you to be saying that you don't believe Jesus was God during His earthly ministry?

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

This is not and never was how official beliefs of the church were formed. Not one doctrine was ever formed like this. You need to learn some church history, and stop abusing her writings to define our official beliefs, because they dont

How can you say this? 

Ellen specifically said Doctors and Ministers "brought in new Doctrines" & God enabled Ellen to define which "Doctrines" were true and which ones were in error. Ellen goes on to say that was the rubric under which SDA Doctrines were established. 

Here is where she says it again in a different manner.

Quote

In the early days of the message, when our numbers were few, we studied diligently to understand the meaning of many Scriptures. At times it seemed as if no explanation could be given. My mind seemed to be locked to an understanding of the Word; but when our brethren who had assembled for study came to a point where they could go no farther, and had recourse to earnest prayer, the Spirit of God would rest upon me, and I would be taken off in vision, and be instructed in regard to the relation of Scripture to Scripture. These experiences were repeated over and over again. Thus many truths of the third angel's message were established, point by point." (Selected Messages, Book 3, p. 38)

The brethren that assembled for study would reach a point THEY could go no farther and started to pray about it - it was THEN that the Spirit of God would rest upon Ellen and SHE would be "taken off in vision" to be "instructed in regard to the relation of Scripture to Scripture".

I'm sorry but THAT doesn't sound much like sola scriptura to me. 

 

How do you determine which things Ellen said were authoritative and which things are to be ignored? 

 

The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe IT was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)

Ellen says of her writings

 

We must follow the directions given through the Spirit of Prophecy [Mrs. White's writings]. ... God has spoken to us through His Word. He has spoken to us through the Testimonies to the church and through the books that have helped to make plain our present duty and the position that we should now occupy. (Testimonies, Vol. 8, p. 298)

 

Before I stand on my feet, I have no thought of speaking as plainly as I do. But the Spirit of God rests upon me with power, and I CANNOT but speak the words GIVEN me. I dare not withhold one word of the testimony.... I speak the words GIVEN ME by a higher power than human power, and I CANNOT, if I would, recall [retract] one sentence” (1MR 28).
 

 

There are those who say, ‘Someone MANIPULATES her writings.’ I acknowledge the charge. It is One who is mighty in counsel, One who presents before me the condition of things” (1MR 30).

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 5/12/2018 at 11:32 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

I love everything except your last sentence.  It seems like you're saying that Jesus - in death - was not really DEAD.  His spirit somehow separated from His body, and went to the "underworld".   I can't agree.  I believe Jesus was actually dead, and unconscious - just like every human being who dies.   God the Father had to wake His Son. 

Galatians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead,”

1 Peter 3:18-20  “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”

        Christ was “made alive” by the Spirit of God His Father (Rom. 8:11, Gal. 1:1).  God (who IS spirit) resurrected Christ, and God through Christ preached to “spirits in prison” back in the “days of Noah”.  He preached to them through Noah.  Peter is making the point that the SAME SPIRIT did both.     

 

8thdaypriest: Me and you have talk many years, and I know you left the SDA Church. However, I never would have thought you made the statement you just made. I hope all can see how important it is to know what word means. Spirit is claim to mean human, vital forces which is your mind, ghost which is a lie they don't exist, DIVINE BEINGS and angels. The last two is correct the others are not! Now if you look up prison it also mean time, so MICHAEL coming in THE NAME of HIS FATHER did preach to them. But here how the Greek mythology have crept into the church! UNDERWORLD REALLY! YAHSHUA stayed in the tomb until Gabriel call HIM as only from HIS FATHER'S REQUEST! 

And also the grave is the prison of those who are lost but those in the first resurrection. Like Lazarus they are all asleep! Hellu-YAH! 

With much love!

[stinsonmarri]

Here we go arguing over EGW and her writings. The subject I thought was on the Investigated Judgment and this vision was given to Hiram Edson. Why we have all of these problems are the Church doctrines that have become the traditions and doctrines of men. The Day of Atonement was not nail to the cross why! I will say this again because the Holy Convocation were Statues and were given in Gen 1:14 and the Sabbath is a Holy Convocation. SDA want to claim like the Protestants that they were all sabbath. And they were ceremonial laws they were not. A ceremony is what you do on a day it is not, I repeat is not a day. The Bible said clearly what was to cease and it did cease. Animal sacrifices and oblations! Also the earthly priestly services, that did not mean that the priestly services ended! It just ended on earth because THE MESSIAH is our HIGH PRIEST where in Heaven.  There is only one Sabbath, the Sabbath of YAHWEH. The day of Atonement was our special occasion our sabbath to afflict our souls and that is what happen on Oct. 22, 1844 that you name will not be blotted out of the Book of Life. It comes only once a year and it is still binding! Our High Priest has taken the Book of Life and we human now have become a living sacrifice. Not a dead one with blood because YAHSHUA died with HIS BLOOD in our place! If HE come across your name and your record has not change as you claim you are blotted out on that Holy Day every year.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of ELOHIYM, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto ELOHIYM, which is your reasonable service. Rom 12:1 

So are you a day too? The Leviticus system of sacrifices and priestly services was only to point to the promise of Gen 1:15! It was still to reverence because YAHWEH gave this Command and what is purpose was for and when it would end here on earth and it did with the death of YAHSHUA! Sad but we make up things because we don't to be strictly obedient to all that is required! So we have accepted many of the doctrines they believe in like they accepted many of the doctrine the Catholic taught against THE MOST HIGH, thinking he, the papacy, "could change times (Appointed Times) and Laws."

If you want to read EGW, read the last book she had published before she died. It was specifically written to our leaders but also for the whole church. Testimonies to the Minister p. 105 Let me make this point as well why do we call all these days the pagan word feast? They did not overeat, they ate only the passover supper on the evening that begin the Holy Convocation of Unleavened Bread. The Day of Atonement they fast and afflict their souls as did the pioneers, Pentecost is the wave offering of  two loves of bread to wave before the priest; also sacrifices were done. The disciples in Acts when the day of Pentecost had fully come they were praying for THE HOLY SPIRIT. So I am at a lost and the Hebrew word "moed," means Appointed Time or Statues and it first found in Gen 1:14!

When we stop studying as a church holding on to error, then to me I see why the Investigated Judgment is not accepted anymore by the Church. The time of separation is here folks and I don't mean to leave, the remnant is being sealed and they will be on one platform. Oh, that came from EGW the Early Writings, I love that book a lot! Oh read "Precepts Given to Guard Decalogue." SDA Bible Commentary-EGW Comments p. 1104

This is not my view, it is in the Bible and you have the right not to accept what I present!

Be bless!

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/12/2018 at 10:09 PM, JoeMo said:

Did He command humans to worship the incarnate Jesus during His earthly ministry?  Before I take this discussion any further, I would like to clarify your thought.  Do I understand you to be saying that you don't believe Jesus was God during His earthly ministry?

You're talking (I think) about the difference between WHO He was, and WHAT He was.  

He WAS the Son of God, and therefore en-titled to receive worship.  

He was a divine being - prior to His incarnation.  He became a human being.  After returning to the Father's right hand, His divine powers were restored to Him. 

The word "god" in the Greek, means "divine being".   Yes - I believe that the Son of God was begotten (born) a divine being, in the Heavenly realm, from His beginning.  I believe He had a beginning - He began to exist.   Some have included an existence without beginning, in their definition of "divine" or "God".  I do not.  In my own definition, a divine being is one who creates life.  Life originates FROM a "divine being".  God the Father was the original "divine being".  He had no beginning.  God's "son" began to exist, when the Father beget Him.  That was the FIRST and ONLY being directly begotten from God.  Christ called Himself "the beginning".  He was "the beginning" of all creation, because He created everything that exists.  God the Father created THROUGH His Son. 

When the Son of God incarnated to become a human being, He gave up His divine powers.  He "emptied Himself".  He must defeat Satan AS a human being - NOT as a divine being.  To overcome Satan as a divine being, would be to us powers not available to us.   Satan would have cried FOUL!!   The only difference for Christ, is that He was completely filled with the Spirit of His Father from His birth.  We are not so.   We can be "filled" when we give ask for this.  When we "open the door".  Until then, God is knocking from outside.  By the time we open the door,  we already have many bad habits.   

The filling from birth, was like Adam.  I believe it is one reason for Christ being called "the last Adam".  When Satan took dominion over the earth and the human race, the Father could not "fill" humans without individual specific invitation.  The Son of God could give that invitation/request prior to His incarnation.  Unlike us, He existed in the Heavenly realm prior to His birth as a human being. 

It was as if mankind (in the persons of Adam/Eve) had CHOSEN Satan as their Lord and ruler.  For God or His divine Son, to "fill" (possess) a descendant of Adam after that, would be intrusion, unless the human "called on the name of the LORD" and wanted the Son of God as LORD.

Hope I'm explaining this well enough. 

The earth was "given" to the human race - with Christ as LORD and His Father above all - on CONDITION of loyal obedience.     The Son of God would not simply TAKE the earth back.  It belonged to mankind.  The earth was theirs to live in/on with the blessing of God, or to destroy without that blessing.  To recover dominion of the earth, God needed a perfect HUMAN.  If He had a perfectly obedient/loyal human being, then God could (legally) give dominion over the earth to that "perfect man".   He could then assist that man (with divine power) in the ouster of Satan and his destruction.  With dominion over the earth, will come the right to choose who will live with Him on the earth made new. 

There is a study on my website titled "DOMINION".  http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/11-DOMINION.htm

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/12/2018 at 11:53 PM, The Wanderer said:

‘For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily … who is the head of all rule and authority ... . He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him” (Col 1:15–20; 2:915, ESV).

Deity can "dwell" in us too.  That doesn't make us divine.  Jesus said, "You Father are in me."  Jesus said,  "The Father who dwells in Me, does the works." 

The "whole fullness of deity" that dwelt in Jesus the man - was His Father. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/13/2018 at 12:51 PM, Gustave said:

In the early days of the message, when our numbers were few, we studied diligently to understand the meaning of many Scriptures. At times it seemed as if no explanation could be given. My mind seemed to be locked to an understanding of the Word; but when our brethren who had assembled for study came to a point where they could go no farther, and had recourse to earnest prayer, the Spirit of God would rest upon me, and I would be taken off in vision, and be instructed in regard to the relation of Scripture to Scripture. These experiences were repeated over and over again. Thus many truths of the third angel's message were established, point by point." (Selected Messages, Book 3, p. 38)

On 5/13/2018 at 12:51 PM, Gustave said:

 

There are so many who are simply in denial.  They cannot "see" that Ellen's visions played a large part in the establishment of church doctrine and message. 

[8thdaypriest]

23 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

the scripture base that is used by the church, and as I have said before, if you dont have scripture to show where the church is right/wrong than there is nothing to talk about.

If Scripture is presented to deny the 1844 start for an "investigative judgment" in Heaven itself, then folks will just start quoting Ellen White.   We could have a discussion - yes- if all parties would stick to Scripture ONLY.  But THIS THREAD began as a question concerning the establishment of SDA Church doctrine.  (How was it "established"?) 

Are we discussing the establishment of the doctrine?  Or are we discussing the doctrine itself - whether it is Biblical or not?   Those are two different discussions. 

It is quite obvious that the visions of Ellen White played a large part in the establishment of Church doctrine and message.  She (her visions) pointed those studying, to connections in the Scriptures.  If those "links" were valid, then yes, the doctrine IS Scripturally sound and "based" in Scripture.  If those links are NOT sound - then the doctrines are not sound. 

[JoeMo]

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Tell us. Why would Jesus bother with a quick side trip to "hell" just to preach to a few people there in between the resurrection and His ascension? Where does scripture explain to us the reason Jesus would want to make such a side-trip, at the behest of no other text except the one in 1 Peter? Is it right to make a doctrine out of one text like this? "How readest thou?

I acquiesced on these points after a post by 8DP (See my post above from 5:25 PM on Saturday May 15).  Jesus could have just as easily taken this side trip AFTER His resurrection or ascension.  I wasn't making a doctrine.  I was only asserting my read of the Scripture.  8DP convinced me otherwise.

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

He gave up His divine powers.  He "emptied Himself".

OK.  We're on the same page. I was inferring from previous posts that you thought Jesus' divine powers were taken away from Him.  I agree that He voluntarily gave them up; just like you stated.  I also think He could have taken them back at any time (e.g., He COULD have come down from the cross of He had chosen to).  Thanks for explaining your position and the scripture behind it so well.

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Are we discussing the establishment of the doctrine?  Or are we discussing the doctrine itself - whether it is Biblical or not?   Those are two different discussions. 

I think the discussions are related.  Is the SDA "doctrine" of the Investigative Judgement and 1844 biblical or not?  If so, end of discussion.  If not, who was the main instigator or influence for the establishment of the non-biblical doctrine - the pioneers as a group or specifically EGW?  If it is non-Biblical, why do we hold on to it?

The discussion of other potentially unbiblical doctrines (like taking an historicist viewpoint of eschatology) would follow the same course; but it would definitely be a different discussion.

[stinsonmarri]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If Scripture is presented to deny the 1844 start for an "investigative judgment" in Heaven itself, then folks will just start quoting Ellen White.   We could have a discussion - yes- if all parties would stick to Scripture ONLY.  But THIS THREAD began as a question concerning the establishment of SDA Church doctrine.  (How was it "established"?) 

Are we discussing the establishment of the doctrine?  Or are we discussing the doctrine itself - whether it is Biblical or not?   Those are two different discussions. 

It is quite obvious that the visions of Ellen White played a large part in the establishment of Church doctrine and message.  She (her visions) pointed those studying, to connections in the Scriptures.  If those "links" were valid, then yes, the doctrine IS Scripturally sound and "based" in Scripture.  If those links are NOT sound - then the doctrines are not sound. 

That is not true because first of all the Bible does give proof of the Investigated Judgment: Rev Chapter 4 and 5 provides the Judgment scene. First THE FATHER in the Heavenly Sanctuary and what it contain. Chapter 5 deals with THE FATHER holding the Book of Life in HIS RIGHT HAND! A elder ask John who is worthy to take the Book. John see who is worthy and that was THE LAMB from the tribe of Judah. THE LAMB takes the Book and proof is also given in Daniel 12:1! Here THE LAMB is call HIS ORIGINAL NAME in Heaven to take the Book of Life. Here it states that everyone in the Book of Life will be delivered! It is crystal clear that the Judgment of THE FATHER and the executive Judgment of YAHSHUA when HE returns with the saints to give out the reward of the righteous and the wicked. This will include Satan. I also want make it be known that hell was put in the Bible and here is what is means for the record:

 Hell, Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (source also of Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell"). Literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE root *kel-(1) "to cover, conceal, save."

 The English word may be in part from Old Norse mythological Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology the name of Loki's daughter who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist"). A pagan concept and word fitted to a Christian idiom. In Middle English, also of the Limbus Patrum, place where the Patriarchs, Prophets, etc. awaited the Atonement. Used in the KJV for Old Testament Hebrew Sheol and New Testament Greek Hades, Gehenna. Etymology Online Dictionary

Here is others who show that hell originate from paganism to Christianity:

By the second century, however, the church leaders, in their zeal to convert people to become followers of Yeshua, read references to fire and judgment in the Bible to mean that people who did not convert to their version of Yeshua's theology would not simply die--they would be thrown into a fire that would burn eternally. They based this belief on the pagan descriptions of a hell at the time. The first adoption of the pagan beliefs by a Christian writer was in the Apocalypse of Peter, probably written between 125 and 150 CE that remained in various church lists as a canonical text for centuries. It contains what the author claimed were the words of Yeshua as he instructed Peter after the resurrection about the signs of the end times. It also contains a variety of punishments awaiting sinners in hell and the pleasures of heaven. The descriptions clearly came from Homer, Virgil, Plato, and Orphic and Pythagorean traditions. The hell myth wasn't in the Old Testament or Christian tradition before this writer developed it out of pagan traditions. The Church's Development of the Hell Myth; http://30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm

"Hell" is neither a Hebrew or a Greek word (both Old and New Testaments were written in those languages), nor did it primarily indicate "a place of torment." Biblical translators actually derived it from a secular German word - spelled hel - meaning nothing more than concealed or covered. The concept of a demon regulated horror-house was indeed derived from that word, but it actually evolved from Teutonic mythology. The Origin of "Hell" "http://www.mercifultruth.com">www.mercifultruth.com

I just want to continue to state, I have no view, just a presentation base on facts from the Bible and outside sources. Even EGW as I will continue to repeat said not quote her over the Bible. She said take the Bible! It is up to all to check out the source and make a decision for themselves!

Be bless!

[Gustave]

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

There are so many who are simply in denial.  They cannot "see" that Ellen's visions played a large part in the establishment of church doctrine and message. 

It appears to be that way. 

On one hand I looked up and confirmed Ellen did say not to use her writings as the Wanderer claimed HOWEVER I found more statements from Ellen White that said the direct opposite. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/14/2018 at 5:00 PM, stinsonmarri said:

That is not true because first of all the Bible does give proof of the Investigated Judgment: Rev Chapter 4 and 5 provides the Judgment scene. First THE FATHER in the Heavenly Sanctuary and what it contain. Chapter 5 deals with THE FATHER holding the Book of Life in HIS RIGHT HAND! A elder ask John who is worthy to take the Book. John see who is worthy and that was THE LAMB from the tribe of Judah. THE LAMB takes the Book and proof is also given in Daniel 12:1! Here THE LAMB is call HIS ORIGINAL NAME in Heaven to take the Book of Life. Here it states that everyone in the Book of Life will be delivered! It is crystal clear that the Judgment of THE FATHER and the executive Judgment of YAHSHUA when HE returns with the saints to give out the reward of the righteous and the wicked. This will include Satan. I also want make it be known that hell was put in the Bible and here is what is means for the record:

The "Historical Prologue" printed in Early Writings, has an account of the "vision" given to Mr Hiram Edson, a schoolteacher.  He was a leader of the Adventists at Port Gibson, New York.  When Christ did not return on October 22nd,  he and others gathered in his barn to pray for light.  Later as he was crossing a cornfield with a fellow believer, he received the vision.  He "saw the heavens opened, and Christ in the heavenly sanctuary entering into the most holy place, there to begin a work of ministry in behalf of His people, instead of coming forth from the most holy place to cleanse the world with fire, as they had taught."  Careful Bible study followed. 

Ellen White later endorsed Mr Edson's vision, with a vision of her own.  Mr Edson's vision did not include an endorsement of the October 22nd date.  His vision simply indicated that Christ would enter the MHP of Heaven FOR the judgment at the end of the 2300  evening/mornings.   This left open the possibility that October 22nd was NOT the end of the 2300 E/Ms. 

Mrs White's vision did.  She said and wrote, that the angel showed her what took place in Heaven, on October 22nd, 1844.   Now - it is possible that her vision was the same/similar to that of Mr Edson, and she simply ASSUMED that the vision was explaining what took place on October 22nd, when it may not have.  

Mrs White describes Jesus standing before the Ark in the Most Holy Place.  He is dressed in the WRONG ATTIRE for the Day of Atonement.   The clothing commanded was 5 pieces of plain white linen.  In her vision, Christ is dressed in the glorious DAILY garb, with the Ephod, and the blue robe with the "bells and pomegranates".   See Early Writings page 54-55.

How to account for this?  

Perhaps Ellen misinterpreted her own vision.   The LORD may have shown her that it was NOT in fact the Day of Atonement in Heaven - because Christ was not dressed in the garb for that DAY.  She - and those around her, missed the CLUE. 

[Gregory Matthews]

SDA Scholars today question the exact circumstances of the manner in which Edson is said to have received his "new information."

Regardless,  Ellen White was not given by God to tell us how to understand scripture.  She held out the Bible as the authority in one's life and experience.    It is clear that at various times in her life she did  not fully understand  a Biblical doctrine.  This should be expected.  One's spiritual life is a life of spiritual growth and understanding.  This is true of all humans.  EGW was a human.  We should expect to see this in her.

Some will ask:  Would not God correct her if she was wrong?    First, as she was not given to be an authority on Biblical doctrines, God did not need to correct her.  Second, if God chose to correct her, God would do it in the same way that God does it with us--by the working of the Holy Spirit, and over time.

 

[8thdaypriest]

 

1 minute ago, 8thdaypriest said:

  On 5/14/2018 at 5:00 PM, stinsonmarri said:

That is not true because first of all the Bible does give proof of the Investigated Judgment: Rev Chapter 4 and 5 provides the Judgment scene. First THE FATHER in the Heavenly Sanctuary and what it contain. Chapter 5 deals with THE FATHER holding the Book of Life in HIS RIGHT HAND! A elder ask John who is worthy to take the Book. John see who is worthy and that was THE LAMB from the tribe of Judah. THE LAMB takes the Book and proof is also given in Daniel 12:1! Here THE LAMB is call HIS ORIGINAL NAME in Heaven to take the Book of Life. Here it states that everyone in the Book of Life will be delivered! It is crystal clear that the Judgment of THE FATHER and the executive Judgment of YAHSHUA when HE returns with the saints to give out the reward of the righteous and the wicked. This will include Satan. I also want make it be known that hell was put in the Bible and here is what is means for the record:

The prophecies - in my opinion - do describe a PRE-Advent judgment scene.  Revelation Cpt 4 and 5, Daniel 7:9-14, 22, 25-27.   But it is a GIANT LEAP from saying there will be a judgment, to saying that judgment began on October 22nd, 1844.  The proof for THAT SPECIFIC DATE - in my opinion - is lacking.

In my opinion - the judgment scene described in Daniel 7, will take place on the very DAY that Christ returns.  He will go before the Heavenly Court TO RECEIVE HIS KINGDOM.  The "Book" contains the names of those He has won - the citizens of His kingdom.  It will be a VERY SHORT ceremony.  The heavenly beings have been watching this conflict for nearly 6000 years.  They are more than ready to pronounce judgment against Satan, and to proclaim Christ king.  I see this proclamation sounded sounded in Heaven, at the 7th Trumpet.  "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ" (Rev 11:15-19). 

Christ said, "I know my sheep."  He does not need 175 years+ to "investigate" their sins, to see if they really asked forgiveness for each and every one.  "The LORD knows those who are His." 

The Spring "appointed times" Feast prophecies were fulfilled day-for-day, and even hour-for-hour.   Why would be think that the Fall Feast prophecies would be fulfilled in a different manner?  Anciently the DAY of Atonement took place on ONE DAY.  It did not begin on one day and end on another, with weeks, months or years intervening between the start and the end.  

These are the main reasons, why I do not believe that an "investigative judgment" began in Heaven on October 22nd, 1844.