The Investigative Judgment

[stinsonmarri]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The "Historical Prologue" printed in Early Writings, has an account of the "vision" given to Mr Hiram Edson, a schoolteacher.  He was a leader of the Adventists at Port Gibson, New York.  When Christ did not return on October 22nd,  he and others gathered in his barn to pray for light.  Later as he was crossing a cornfield with a fellow believer, he received the vision.  He "saw the heavens opened, and Christ in the heavenly sanctuary entering into the most holy place, there to begin a work of ministry in behalf of His people, instead of coming forth from the most holy place to cleanse the world with fire, as they had taught."  Careful Bible study followed. 

Ellen White later endorsed Mr Edson's vision, with a vision of her own.  Mr Edson's vision did not include an endorsement of the October 22nd date.  His vision simply indicated that Christ would enter the MHP of Heaven FOR the judgment at the end of the 2300  evening/mornings.   This left open the possibility that October 22nd was NOT the end of the 2300 E/Ms. 

Mrs White's vision did.  She said and wrote, that the angel showed her what took place in Heaven, on October 22nd, 1844.   Now - it is possible that her vision was the same/similar to that of Mr Edson, and she simply ASSUMED that the vision was explaining what took place on October 22nd, when it may not have.  

Mrs White describes Jesus standing before the Ark in the Most Holy Place.  He is dressed in the WRONG ATTIRE for the Day of Atonement.   The clothing commanded was 5 pieces of plain white linen.  In her vision, Christ is dressed in the glorious DAILY garb, with the Ephod, and the blue robe with the "bells and pomegranates".   See Early Writings page 54-55.

How to account for this?  

Perhaps Ellen misinterpreted her own vision.   The LORD may have shown her that it was NOT in fact the Day of Atonement in Heaven - because Christ was not dressed in the garb for that DAY.  She - and those around her, missed the CLUE. 

I know the history about brother Edison, as well as EGW as you do. I have always stated as I do now that I believe in what was shown EGW in vision. Rev 1:13 it states:

And having turned, I saw seven golden menorahs, and in the midst of the seven menorahs One like THE SON of Man, wearing a garment down to the FEET, and having HIS BREASTS girded with a golden girdle. HRB

This Scene was in THE HOLY PLACE and it does not tell the color of the Garment that was worn down to HIS FEET.  In this place HE had a Golden Girdle over HIS BREAST! Now EGW saw YAHSHUA in the HOLIEST of HOLIEST where THE FATHER Throne is. Rev 4:2 She see that YAHSHUA had changed HIS Garment. Here it showed that YAHSHUA did not have the breastplate like Aaron, instead; she was privy to see a breastplate of curious work! She saw it glitter like diamonds when HE moved that appears to look like letters with names. She also notice like Aaron, HE had “a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate,” and instead of a turban or mite, on HIS HEAD was something in the appearance of a Crown. This truly showed the changes in the Levitical ware and Melchizedek ware was not describe in the Bible.

If you understand that the word "christ," does not have at all the meaning of the word MESSIAH! "Christ," only means anointed, "MESSIAH," anointing of THE PROPHET, THE HIGH PRIEST and KING! This is what made the difference and that is why YAHSHUA was after the order of Melchizedek who was High Priest and King but not a prophet! Also the Levitical order had to sacrifice animals daily and more on the Sabbath and the Holy Convocation days. This was not done before, man was not required to sacrifice daily and on more on the Sabbath and the other Holy Convocation Appointed Times.

Returning to the Investigated Judgment, from Adam to all those under the fifth seal had to be seal first. Sad, but the SDA do not understand those seals meant what they are call seal. The four horses are how the earth went through a change as sin became more deadly. White horse before sin, red horse first death or man's blood shedded, black horse is paganism of Nimrod's belief system spread throughout the earth, gray horse the earth begins to die!!!! In all the periods of time of the earth men were save and now sealed, the last to be sealed are the 144,000 and the great multitude. That's how deep the investigated judgment is and it is more than we realize. I also agree with EGW in Testimony to the Ministers that Revelation has not been understood because the church thinks it is rich and need of nothing. The church does not realize that is "wretched, poor, naked, and blind. There will be those who will take of the eyesalve offered, that their eyes will come open to "repair the breach"!

I will close and say I am a presenter and it is up to each and everyone to check out the source for yourself. Make sure that you make the right choice, because your soul is in your hand. The Bible says to prove all things to see if it true! Do not blame anyone of the choice you make!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

SDA Scholars today question the exact circumstances of the manner in which Edson is said to have received his "new information."

Regardless,  Ellen White was not given by God to tell us how to understand scripture.  She held out the Bible as the authority in one's life and experience.    It is clear that at various times in her life she did  not fully understand  a Biblical doctrine.  This should be expected.  One's spiritual life is a life of spiritual growth and understanding.  This is true of all humans.  EGW was a human.  We should expect to see this in her.

Some will ask:  Would not God correct her if she was wrong?    First, as she was not given to be an authority on Biblical doctrines, God did not need to correct her.  Second, if God chose to correct her, God would do it in the same way that God does it with us--by the working of the Holy Spirit, and over time.

 

That is why she clearly said she was not a prophet. Yet, we want take away what she is called in the Scriptures in Acts 2:14-17, and Edison come under the same Scripture also Jones, Waggoner and others today. They were all call messengers, no apostle was called a prophet only John was and is the last prophet on this earth. He was giving everything and EGW and Edison just open our eyes to what was already written in the Bible! EGW didn't know everything and she kept telling everyone that but it appears we do not believe her. She it not THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY, YAHSHUA IS! She wrote about what HE gave to her! Read her preface! Because we have put her up on a pedal, many have left this church and become offshoots! Now we have corruption within, those who do not accept the Investigated Judgment! The trinity and all these other things of Catholicy has moved in under the fake umbrella; our symbol of the trinity look identical to the Catholic we just word it different a little. Like ancient Israel reject YAHSHUA, history is repeating again, but a 144,000 will stand to finish the work and bring in the great multitude. This is the message of the Investigated Judgment that has been cut off because we do not understand Revelation like EGW stated! 

I am just a presenter it is up to all to prove all things and make their own choice!

Blessings!

[B/W Photodude]

Was taking down notes today, but didn't want to type out the whole thing! So, photo of my note:

As written, the IJ is for the rest of the universe to see the righteousness of God and to be confident that those saved won't start another episode of sin again sometime in the future.

Then while writing this down, I realized that while heaven is going to be a wonderful place, the redeemed must still suffer the effects of sin as they judge the wicked humans and angels for 1000 years (or a long time). But then Jesus has suffered thru our sins since sin entered the world. His suffering did not begin and end at the cross. He suffers thru every wrong thing that people do in violation of the law of God. He has to endure the searching of sinful hearts to know them well enough to judge. Then when the redeemed judge the lost, they must become one with Jesus to endure the sin in the lost. How else will they truly judge the lost and fix their punishment?

When the last wicked individual has become extinguished, then God can wipe away all tears and memories of the wicked so completely that even He Himself could not resurrect them again.

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

There is NOTHING in scripture which would suggest that we had, have, or ever will have THIS fullness that was had by Jesus alone; except perhaps after the resurrection.

I predict that some will not "approve" of what I just posted, however, there is nothing in scripture to contradict it. There is no need to spoil it by our personal  "philosophy."

You sound dismissive Wanderer, telling everyone who disagrees with your view, they are spoiling the understanding of who Christ is.  You don't need anyone's approval of what you believe.  We are all free here to express our views, to hold on to them, to strengthen them, or perhaps to modify them. 

I was not saying that we are on the same level as Christ Jesus.  I was saying that Christ overcame the Devil in the same way that we can - by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God. 

I was just saying the SON never held Himself to be equal with His Father.  Not before His incarnation.  Not since.  Never will. 

That is not my "philosophy" - without any Scripture support.  That is my understanding of what the Bible says. 

NET  Philippians 2:5 "You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had,who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,"     Christ did NOT seek to be equal with His Father.   (Satan did.)

The Son was "the express image" of His Father.  An "image" is a copy - NOT the original.  I believe the Son of God had a beginning (and WAS "the beginning").  The Father had no beginning. 

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Was taking down notes today, but didn't want to type out the whole thing! So, photo of my note:

As written, the IJ is for the rest of the universe to see the righteousness of God and to be confident that those saved won't start another episode of sin again sometime in the future.

Then while writing this down, I realized that while heaven is going to be a wonderful place, the redeemed must still suffer the effects of sin as they judge the wicked humans and angels for 1000 years (or a long time). But then Jesus has suffered thru our sins since sin entered the world. His suffering did not begin and end at the cross. He suffers thru every wrong thing that people do in violation of the law of God. He has to endure the searching of sinful hearts to know them well enough to judge. Then when the redeemed judge the lost, they must become one with Jesus to endure the sin in the lost. How else will they truly judge the lost and fix their punishment?

When the last wicked individual has become extinguished, then God can wipe away all tears and memories of the wicked so completely that even He Himself could not resurrect them again.

When I think about our "judging" - I prefer to think of asking questions, while we look at the records (judging for ourselves to determine if we agree with HIS judgment).  Who knows.  We may have very accurate video recordings to view.  And we will also see the LORD's pleading with them, and what He did to try and save them.

The Law of Israel (given by the LORD) included the requirement that "all Israel shall stone him with stones" (Numbers 15:35).   An execution required the participation of the entire camp (perhaps through the elders of each tribe - acting as representatives of their respective tribes).  The point - to me - is that the LORD will do nothing without the CONSENT of His people.

I see the final judgment (The Great White Throne Judgment) as a final review - for the benefit of the redeemed.  Why open the books, if only God's judgment counts?  The evidence will be reviewed one final time - before the lost are executed forever.  Every redeemed person must be convinced that God and His Son did everything divinely possible, to save each one of the condemned.  Every redeemed person will say "I agree" - "So say you all" - polling the jury. 

It's about securing the TRUST of His people.   We could not TRUST Him, if we were left not understanding why a loved one or family member was executed.  Those little doubts would fester.    

So far as our involvement with the "penalty phase", I believe that we (the redeemed) will NOT decide the penalty.  It has already been decided - by our Creator.  We all know the penalty - is DEATH.  

Ellen White wrote that some would "suffer many days" in the "Lake of Fire", after the Great White Throne Judgment  (Spiritual Gifts Volume I, p.217-218).  I don't believe that one. 

The only difference between the Baptists version of "Hell" (conscious torment forever) and the Adventist version, is the length of the horrible torment.  What purpose would conscious torture in fire (as punishment) serve?  God doesn't need to put the FEAR into His people - to keep them loyal to Him.  Payback is beneath our GOD. 

We could discuss the "second death" in the "Lake of Fire".  I do not understand it the way Adventists do.  But that's a different discussion.  I personally do not believe lost human beings will be conscious, when what remains of them - their soul/spirits retained by God Himself at their physical deaths - are destroyed by God Himself in His special "fire".  Satan and his demons - on the other hand, because they are spirit beings, will suffer in that "fire" - "forever and ever" (unto the age of the ages) - until they are gone. 

Revelation 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet were cast. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Personally - I believe that is why God created us mortal - from the dust - so we COULD die quickly (if we sinned), and not have to suffer the slow extinction that will happen to Satan and his demons. 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I like your writing, it is very unique and artsy. (attractive). 

I do it once in a while to stay in practice. I call it "pocket typewriter" to simulate a typewritten font! You should see my real handwriting! 

[B/W Photodude]

46 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

So far as our involvement with the "penalty phase", I believe that we (the redeemed) will NOT decide the penalty.  It has already been decided - by our Creator.  We all know the penalty - is DEATH.  

Ellen White wrote that some would "suffer many days" in the "Lake of Fire", after the Great White Throne Judgment  (Spiritual Gifts Volume I, p.217-218).  I don't believe that one. 

The only difference between the Baptists version of "Hell" (conscious torment forever) and the Adventist version, is the length of the horrible torment.  What purpose would conscious torture in fire (as punishment) serve?  God doesn't need to put the FEAR into His people - to keep them loyal to Him.  Payback is beneath our GOD. 

We could discuss the "second death" in the "Lake of Fire".  I do not understand it the way Adventists do.  But that's a different discussion.  I personally do not believe lost human beings will be conscious, when what remains of them - their soul/spirits retained by God Himself at their physical deaths - are destroyed by God Himself in His special "fire".  Satan and his demons - on the other hand, because they are spirit beings, will suffer in that "fire" - "forever and ever" (unto the age of the ages) - until they are gone. 

 Personally - I believe that is why God created us mortal - from the dust - so we COULD die quickly (if we sinned), and not have to suffer the slow extinction that will happen to Satan and his demons. 

Obviously, you get to believe whatever you want. However, I have no reason to doubt EGW when she wrote what she wrote regarding the length of the burning. And she said they would be conscious of their torment until the last bit of them was gone. Part of why they should suffer is that by being partakers of sin and being lost is that they also are part of the movement that tormented the people of God through the ages. Even if they did not actually do it, they participated in the spirit of it. I don't make the rules, I just read and ponder what was written. 

Apparently, God is unable to put enough fear in the vast majority of the earth's population that they would turn from wickedness. Whatever God decides is the correct way to handle it, I would not call it "payback."

As far as the righteous judging, while it is true that the lost are already lost, and no one is claiming that they are making the determination of whether they are lost or saved, they are looking at their lives and determining the punishment. If someone is given "days to burn", then it was carefully thought out and deemed appropriate. As far as Satan and his companion spirits, even they will have an end point to their punishment. Really? For ever and ever? If so, then God has to be aware of them suffering for ever and ever. I see Him reaching a point where they are gone forever and then He will wipe their memories from the mind of the saved and even His mind forever. This is similar to throwing our sins into the ocean and not remembering them anymore. He has said thru Scripture that some things will not be remembered.

That is funny  the bit about us being made of dust so we could be destroyed easier. There are probably trillions of worlds out there that have never fallen and they have a built in rapid destruct function?!

 

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I was just saying the SON never held Himself to be equal with His Father.  Not before His incarnation.  Not since.  Never will. 

Where did the Father or the Holy Spirit ever say they were better than either of the other two?

Demanding equality is a selfish trait that God will not display and we are encouraged not to either. I think that is one of the definitions of "lowliness of heart."

[stinsonmarri]

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

That was very resourceful of you to just photograph your notes like that. Ill add it to my list of "Forum Tricks and Capers." lol

I like your writing, it is very unique and artsy. (attractive). 

There is a scripture that came to mind when I read the comment that comes after your picture in my quote:

Not just "just" but also THE Justifier. It has to be both.

It truly was resourceful and the writing was nice as well. I could not quite understand the notes on the millenial for the benefit of the redeem and the executive for the benefit of the lost?

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev 22:11 

There are two Judgments, the investigated judgment and THE FATHER is THE JUDGE. Then the executive judgment and YAHSHUA is THE JUDGE. HE bring HIS reward with HIM for both the righteous and the wicked. The saints will comes back with HIM to receive their reward, the Holy City New Jerusalem, who by the way will replace the old one. Jerusalem on earth had become Babylon symbolically because of all the unclean and hateful birds. These birds are religions that are house in Jerusalem in the last days. The Bible then states that a angel will finish the final destruction that first started with the false prophet. USA (the two horned beast known as the false prophet), will nuke Jerusalem in the battle of Armageddon because of her sins and the angel will take a millstone and cast her into the sea. Dan12:11; Rev 13:13;16: 16, 17; 17:18; 18:1, 2,  10, 18, 19, 21

YAHSHUA will touch Mt. Olivet and it will become a plain and cover up the place of the old Jerusalem. Twice before had she become desolate, but this time she had become so sinful that she had become Babylon and this desolate is her final judgement. Now the New Jerusalem the executive judgment of the righteous is giving. The New City will come down and take her place along with the saints within! The righteous will receive a new earth and the wicked executive judgment will be everlasting fire and complete annihilation, never to rise again!

Finally it was stated; "Then when the redeemed judge the lost, they must become one with Jesus to endure the sin in the lost. How else will they truly judge the lost and fix their punishment?" I am sorry I do not understand what is implied with this statement? Can you give more of an explanation on what you saying if you don't mind!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

[stinsonmarri]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

When I think about our "judging" - I prefer to think of asking questions, while we look at the records (judging for ourselves to determine if we agree with HIS judgment).  Who knows.  We may have very accurate video recordings to view.  And we will also see the LORD's pleading with them, and what He did to try and save them.

The Law of Israel (given by the LORD) included the requirement that "all Israel shall stone him with stones" (Numbers 15:35).   An execution required the participation of the entire camp (perhaps through the elders of each tribe - acting as representatives of their respective tribes).  The point - to me - is that the LORD will do nothing without the CONSENT of His people.

I see the final judgment (The Great White Throne Judgment) as a final review - for the benefit of the redeemed.  Why open the books, if only God's judgment counts?  The evidence will be reviewed one final time - before the lost are executed forever.  Every redeemed person must be convinced that God and His Son did everything divinely possible, to save each one of the condemned.  Every redeemed person will say "I agree" - "So say you all" - polling the jury. 

It's about securing the TRUST of His people.   We could not TRUST Him, if we were left not understanding why a loved one or family member was executed.  Those little doubts would fester.    

So far as our involvement with the "penalty phase", I believe that we (the redeemed) will NOT decide the penalty.  It has already been decided - by our Creator.  We all know the penalty - is DEATH.  

Ellen White wrote that some would "suffer many days" in the "Lake of Fire", after the Great White Throne Judgment  (Spiritual Gifts Volume I, p.217-218).  I don't believe that one. 

The only difference between the Baptists version of "Hell" (conscious torment forever) and the Adventist version, is the length of the horrible torment.  What purpose would conscious torture in fire (as punishment) serve?  God doesn't need to put the FEAR into His people - to keep them loyal to Him.  Payback is beneath our GOD. 

We could discuss the "second death" in the "Lake of Fire".  I do not understand it the way Adventists do.  But that's a different discussion.  I personally do not believe lost human beings will be conscious, when what remains of them - their soul/spirits retained by God Himself at their physical deaths - are destroyed by God Himself in His special "fire".  Satan and his demons - on the other hand, because they are spirit beings, will suffer in that "fire" - "forever and ever" (unto the age of the ages) - until they are gone. 

Revelation 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet were cast. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Personally - I believe that is why God created us mortal - from the dust - so we COULD die quickly (if we sinned), and not have to suffer the slow extinction that will happen to Satan and his demons. The word hell was added in the Bible

 

 

If we are going to quote from EGW let's quote her correctly please:

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering was there. Said the angel, the worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.

Where did you read her saying she saw them: "after the Great White Throne Judgment?" I believe that many will suffer many days including Satan and his angels. The have to bare the sins of the righteous on their shoulders. We do know how long it will take to burn of all of the wicked from Cain until the end of time, that is a lot of people! What we feel personally is not what the Bible says to us all! Satan and his angels as the Bible says forever and ever until he is completely destroyed. He will be destroyed and you nor I can speculate on how quickly each human being will be destroyed.

Was Hell in the Original Bible?

Was "hell" in the original Bible? No, the word "hell" did not appear anywhere in the original Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament (OT). Not in a single verse! Furthermore the word "hell" is also very hard to find in the New Testament (NT). You can easily confirm this by using an online Bible search tool to scan various Bible translations for the word "hell." Or you can refer to the table below, which was produced by Gary Amirault, a Bible scholar who has extensively researched the question of "hell" as a biblical teaching. I have added two translations to Amirault's original list: the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB), sponsored by the famously literal and conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and the New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE), produced by more than a hundred Bible scholars working for the Roman Catholic Church. Amazingly, even the most conservative Bible scholars now agree that the God of the Hebrew prophets never mentioned "hell"―not even a single time―in Biblical chronologies covering thousands of years! You can confirm this astounding fact by reading the Bible and verifying that "hell" was never mentioned even to the worst people at the worst times! The possibility of "hell" or suffering after death was never mentioned to Adam and Eve (the original sinners), nor to Cain (the first murderer), nor to the wicked people at the time of Great Flood, nor to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, nor even to the Pharaoh who defied Moses and his God repeatedly! by Michael R. Burch

The word that was replace was grave! The Bible made it very clear not add or subtract from the Word but they did anyways. That is why we should study and that word mean to research. Humbly, that is why I try to provide ancient words and their actual meanings. The reason why we have so many different denominations or non denominations all claiming to believe in the Bible and THE HEAVENLY TRIO is due with ones interpretation and changing or adding words! This is the problem! I say it over and over again it not a view or opinion it what does the Bible actually said Most do not want to go along with what the Word actually says. They want to do or believe like they want. That is why so many will be lost! Remember I am just a presenter, all must study and research to see what is so. Then each and everyone of us must make a choice and my hope is you choose to serve THE MOST HIGH correctly!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

On 5/12/2018 at 12:15 AM, The Wanderer said:

What are you waiting for?  You need to start a thread on this!! Sounds interesting!!

A righteous man regards the life of his animal,
But the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

Proverbs 12:10

[stinsonmarri]

On 5/14/2018 at 2:00 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

There are so many who are simply in denial.  They cannot "see" that Ellen's visions played a large part in the establishment of church doctrine and message. 

You are right it plays some part but everything she saw in her visions are in the Bible! What made this church to become like it is, to claim her as a prophet (when she clearly said she was not), and the erronus book by Uriah Smith on Daniel and Revelation. She also thought at one time the book was truthful, but she later saw his character. He even lied and said that EGW saw an angel stand by his side as he wrote his book! EGW wrote about his character, but he had become popular and after the rejecting of the complete 1888 message the church changed. Uriah had taken over everything and sent her to Australia. It was then she turned the pamphlet, Testimony to the Gospel worker into a book adding on to the name; Testimony to the Ministers and Gospel Workers! She revived the book and p. 105-118 is a masterpiece of work! She shows clearly how the ministers were no longer studying and she warn of preconceived ideas that the church was embarking on! She humbly stated not to hold on what was once thought was true can be proven to be errors. She warned of biasness of who is giving the true message and if it is not who we want to hear we shun from them!

EGW made it very clear that Revelation and Daniel were not understood and that "less would be said about the papacy." TM p. 112 She said that just before YAHSHUA comes, it will be understood and there will be a revival among those who truly obey YAHWEH! So it is up to all to go back and check sources about the three beasts of Daniel, the fourth beast and the relation it has to Revelation. How many time have the church stated that they are the same book, only more is reveal in Revelation. How many understand the "three woes," or "the drying up of Euphrates," "the 1290 days and the bless 1335 days." No ones talks about this or who is this Gentile in Rev Chapter 11 what is the bottomless pit, what is the smoke and it turn to locust that was release from the bottomless pit? What about the key, how about all the events in the first four trumpets. Revelation Chapters 4 and 5 talks about the investigated judgment but the Bible opens up from there and please do not give me the Ottoman Turks coming out of the bottomless pit!!!! Finally, folks where is the persecution and the Sunday blue law from a mark in Rev???? If YAHWEH never marked a day how can we? HE named, bless, and made it Holy; that is what written in the Bible. Yes it is a sign every week for those who are call to be obedient to the Sabbath and all of the Commandments. Ezekiel states it is sign that we recognize who really is the true MOST HIGH-THE FATHER! I do not see the first day of the week mention anywhere in Revelation. So as EGW stated don't be  like the Catholic and Pharisetical and priestly fathers; check and make sure what we thought is actually true from the Bible because we too can make some errors. We are not INFALLIBLE THE ALMIGHTY ONES ARE!!!!

Again, I comment and present like all do here, but it is up to all of to check out the source for yourself. The Bible says clearly prove all things and each individual must make up in their own mind. Let's not condemn, but prove what we disagree on in love, kindness, standing on a firm foundation!

Blessings!

[Gregory Matthews]

In an earlier post, it was stated that the word "hell" never appears in the original Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament.  Of course, that is true as the word "hell" is neither a Hebrew word nor an Aramaic word and the Hebrew Bible was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.  So, you would not expect to find the word "hell" written in the original Hebrew Bible.

The English Bible contains the word "hell" in many places.  It does that because the word "hell" is an English word, and that is the language in which most of us reading these posts are able to read.  As to the origin of the English word "hell", that is a question of Etymology.  Etymology tells us that's the origin of the English word "hell" is believed to be grounded in:

* Old English

*  Proto-Germanic 

*  Old Saxon

* Old Norse

You will note that the above does not include either Hebrew or Aramaic.

Since the English word "hell" is not used in the original Bible, what are the Biblical words that have been translated into English by the word "hell?"

Transliterated, they are:

*  Sheol-- a Hebrew word found in the Old Testament.

*  Tartarus--a Greek word found in the New Testament.

*  Hades--A Greek word found in the New Testament.

*  [Valley of] Gehenna--A Greek word found in the New Testament.

NOTES:

1)  It should be stated that there are transliterated Hebrew words (An example is the word "sack.,") which are found in the English language.  I do not deny that.

2)  It is also true that the English word "grave" is not found in the original Hebrew Bible and "grave" is an English word.

 

 

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

You are right it plays some part but everything she saw in her visions are in the Bible! What made this church to become like it is, to claim her as a prophet (when she clearly said she was not), and the erronus book by Uriah Smith on Daniel and Revelation. She also thought at one time the book was truthful, but she later saw his character. He even lied and said that EGW saw an angel stand by his side as he wrote his book! EGW wrote about his character, but he had become popular and after the rejecting of the complete 1888 message the church changed. Uriah had taken over everything and sent her to Australia. It was then she turned the pamphlet, Testimony to the Gospel worker into a book adding on to the name; Testimony to the Ministers and Gospel Workers! She revived the book and p. 105-118 is a masterpiece of work! She shows clearly how the ministers were no longer studying and she warn of preconceived ideas that the church was embarking on! She humbly stated not to hold on what was once thought was true can be proven to be errors. She warned of biasness of who is giving the true message and if it is not who we want to hear we shun from them!

EGW made it very clear that Revelation and Daniel were not understood and that "less would be said about the papacy." TM p. 112 She said that just before YAHSHUA comes, it will be understood and there will be a revival among those who truly obey YAHWEH! So it is up to all to go back and check sources about the three beasts of Daniel, the fourth beast and the relation it has to Revelation. How many time have the church stated that they are the same book, only more is reveal in Revelation. How many understand the "three woes," or "the drying up of Euphrates," "the 1290 days and the bless 1335 days." No ones talks about this or who is this Gentile in Rev Chapter 11 what is the bottomless pit, what is the smoke and it turn to locust that was release from the bottomless pit? What about the key, how about all the events in the first four trumpets. Revelation Chapters 4 and 5 talks about the investigated judgment but the Bible opens up from there and please do not give me the Ottoman Turks coming out of the bottomless pit!!!! Finally, folks where is the persecution and the Sunday blue law from a mark in Rev???? If YAHWEH never marked a day how can we? HE named, bless, and made it Holy; that is what written in the Bible. Yes it is a sign every week for those who are call to be obedient to the Sabbath and all of the Commandments. Ezekiel states it is sign that we recognize who really is the true MOST HIGH-THE FATHER! I do not see the first day of the week mention anywhere in Revelation. So as EGW stated don't be  like the Catholic and Pharisetical and priestly fathers; check and make sure what we thought is actually true from the Bible because we too can make some errors. We are not INFALLIBLE THE ALMIGHTY ONES ARE!!!!

Again, I comment and present like all do here, but it is up to all of to check out the source for yourself. The Bible says clearly prove all things and each individual must make up in their own mind. Let's not condemn, but prove what we disagree on in love, kindness, standing on a firm foundation!

Blessings!

Ellen White said she wasn't a prophet, she said she was MORE, much MORE than a prophet. 

Ellen's visions were simply things she copied from other writers which she didn't give credit to. 

The Investigative Judgement Doctrine was the final theological mechanism used to justify Miller's lie ( that the timing of the 2nd Coming could be known ). 

Matthew 27, 50: "Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last.^[r]  At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom".

Exodus 26, 34: "And the veil shall separate for you the holy place from the most holy". 

The sanctuary was one long room SEPARATED by a thick curtain, a veil - a veil that was torn from "TOP" to bottom when Jesus died, leaving ONE COMPARTMENT. 

 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 5/20/2018 at 9:10 PM, Gustave said:

Ellen White said she wasn't a prophet, she said she was MORE, much MORE than a prophet. 

Ellen's visions were simply things she copied from other writers which she didn't give credit to. 

The Investigative Judgement Doctrine was the final theological mechanism used to justify Miller's lie ( that the timing of the 2nd Coming could be known ). 

Matthew 27, 50: "Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last.^[r]  At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom".

Exodus 26, 34: "And the veil shall separate for you the holy place from the most holy". 

The sanctuary was one long room SEPARATED by a thick curtain, a veil - a veil that was torn from "TOP" to bottom when Jesus died, leaving ONE COMPARTMENT. 

 

 

 

Gustave: I do not understand what you are trying to present. However, I tried to comment on each one as best as I understood.

“Ellen White said she wasn't a prophet, she said she was MORE, much MORE than a prophet.” 

Yes, said she was more than a prophet but not much more. She did work that only three people in the Bible were, also given the same gift. Nathan was a prophet and he told David what he thought was hidden. Samuel was call by YAHWEH to be someone unusual, he was a foster prophet and also loan out to be a priest. Both of these duties were given to him because of his mother's prayer. She was blessed and she said:

And I have asked him to be given to YAHWEH all the days which he shall be, he is loaned for YAHWEH. And he worshiped there before YAHWEH. 1Sa 1:28 HRB

When you look up the word “lent or loan,” the word you find(a verb) is “ inquire,” and it means to investigate. That is what YAHWEH called Samuel to do and that is to judge which included all of his work. The point I am making is, that he also, was given the judgment of Eli’s household. Finally, we come to Peter who was told the lie that both Ananias and Sapphire were going to say due to greed! EGW had this unusual gift and she and only her was given certain secrets of people in the church which also include Uriah Smith! The Testimony to the Churches made her more than just a prophet! She never said much more and she kept their names a secret, but she told them things that only YAHWEH knew. The Bible says the secret things belong to YAHWEH and only HE can reveal it! Deut 29:29  But again she stated clearly she was not a prophet!

“Ellen's visions were simply things she copied from other writers which she didn't give credit to.” 

I cannot agree with some of what you stated! EGW visions came from YAHWEH, but things from history became the problem. She read a lot of history books and wrote what the authors stated without given them credit! History was in its infancy and there were a lot of wrong calculation by men who claim themselves as Biblical scholars! Biblical Commentaries and Dictionaries were on the rise and written by various Protestant ministers. And Universities and Colleges had begun to spring up all over United States teaching more and more Biblical “theology,” and not YAHWEH’S truth according to the Commandments.

To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isa 8:20 KJV

 Also, EGW, along with the church pioneers, held on to certain erroneous religious thoughts from the churches they came from; even before becoming organized as the SDA Church. But she began to realize, through her relationship with THE HOLY SPIRIT and as a messenger of YAHSHUA, that the Bible needed to be studied even deeper. Several years before she died, she was inspired to understand that Daniel and Revelation were not truly understood and she was convince, that the church was holding on to some errors that even she thought at one time was true. She pleaded in Testimony to the Ministers p. 105-119 on how to study the Bible, that YAHWEH ELOHE, THE FATHER is INFAILLABE but we are not! She wrote that we did not understand Daniel and Revelation and when they are understood; there will be a revival in the church. She pointed that this would happen just before YAHSHUA’S coming or in the last days! She always throughout her writing said to take the Bible it was our only creed of faith!

“The Investigative Judgement Doctrine was the final theological mechanism used to justify Miller's lie ( that the timing of the 2nd Coming could be known ).” 

You know a lie is something you say to cover up something to keep from admitting the truth! Miller misunderstood the Scriptures as we all have! He was sincere, he was not covering up or trying to lie or deceive anyone. YAHWEH allowed the misunderstanding because the truth would be understood. That is why studying the Bible must be deeply investigated and not surface concepts or witty ideas from those who think they are so call “prophets.” John was the last prophet, but THE HOLY SPIRIT is needed to provide and lead us into truth. It takes a person like Miller who is sincere to research his mistake and to find the truth. Sadly, he allowed those around him to persuade him that the true day of Atonement was not correct and it was! I am not going to judge Miller because only YAHSHUA saves!

“Matthew 27, 50: “Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last.[r]  At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom”.”

YAHSHUA, the second Adam died, so HE gave up HIS breathe and not a ghost that’s all!

“Exodus 26, 34: "And the veil shall separate for you the holy place from the most holy". 

The sanctuary was one long room SEPARATED by a thick curtain, a veil - a veil that was torn from "TOP" to bottom when Jesus died, leaving ONE COMPARTMENT. “

Yes, but the veil separated it into two rooms, one part Holy the other The Most Holy. Yes, once the veil was torn all could see what was behind the curtains. Nothing, because the Ark of the Covenant was already gone and hidden! This showed that this temple was not needed anymore! Now the Heavenly Sanctuary, Rev 4:1 says clearly a door and not a veil or curtains! There was one place that was like the Heavenly Sanctuary and it too had a gate! Eden, the Garden was the Most Holy Place!

Again, I will continue to state that we must prove all things. I am just a presenter, I give you the evidence for you to check out. As I search the Scriptures to present to you what I have found, it is still up to each and everyone to check out my sources, which always I give freely. Then each must make a choice in their own mind that should always include THE HOLY SPIRIT, to see if these things are so! The choice is left up to each individual!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

[stinsonmarri]

On 5/20/2018 at 8:50 PM, The Wanderer said:

sometimes, we just lose ourselves in "word studies" which, in effect, cover up or avoid  or isolate the true meaning of a scripture passage.  There are lots of words "not in the Bible" yet we use them all the time. I liked the way you expressed this.

Wander, I do study words because as I have said; I believe that YAHWEH gave the vision to EGW. In Early Writings, she stated clearly that THE MOST HIGH had shown her that words were changed in the Bible. EW p. 220, 221 The Bible made this declaration as well:

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the Commandments of YAHWEH your ELOHIYM which I command you. Deut 4:2  Sacred Name KJV, HRB

 Every word of ELOAHH is pure: HE is a shield unto them that put their trust in HIM. Add thou not unto HIS Words, lest HE  reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Prov 30:4, 5 Sacred Name KJV

 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from HIM that called you into the grace of MASHIYACH unto another Gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the Gospel of MASHIYACH. But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or ELOHIYM? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of MASHIYACH. Gal 1:6-9 Sacred Name KJV

 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, ELOHIYM shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, ELOHIYM shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 22: 18, 19 Sacred Name KJV

So I do what the Bible says to do and then EGW shown us, again by ELOHIYM. THE MOST HIGH, felt that this was important. Pastor Matthew agreed with me about hell. Words hurt worse then stick and stones so that fable is untrue. Words can lead you down the wrong path and cause people to be confuse.  Just one wrong word can throw the whole sentence off. We need to know the correct meaning of words and how they were changed as well. The change meaning of words, also causes us to lose what is true! Again I can only present what the Bible says and it is up to each individual to make his own choice!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

[Gustave]

13 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Gustave: I do not understand what you are trying to present. However, I tried to comment on each one as best as I understood.

“Ellen White said she wasn't a prophet, she said she was MORE, much MORE than a prophet.” 

Yes, said she was more than a prophet but not much more. She did work that only three people in the Bible were, also given the same gift. Nathan was a prophet and he told David what he thought was hidden. Samuel was call by YAHWEH to be someone unusual, he was a foster prophet and also loan out to be a priest. Both of these duties were given to him because of his mother's prayer. She was blessed and she said:

And I have asked him to be given to YAHWEH all the days which he shall be, he is loaned for YAHWEH. And he worshiped there before YAHWEH. 1Sa 1:28 HRB

When you look up the word “lent or loan,” the word you find(a verb) is “ inquire,” and it means to investigate. That is what YAHWEH called Samuel to do and that is to judge which included all of his work. The point I am making is, that he also, was given the judgment of Eli’s household. Finally, we come to Peter who was told the lie that both Ananias and Sapphire were going to say due to greed! EGW had this unusual gift and she and only her was given certain secrets of people in the church which also include Uriah Smith! The Testimony to the Churches made her more than just a prophet! She never said much more and she kept their names a secret, but she told them things that only YAHWEH knew. The Bible says the secret things belong to YAHWEH and only HE can reveal it! Deut 29:29  But again she stated clearly she was not a prophet!

“Ellen's visions were simply things she copied from other writers which she didn't give credit to.” 

I cannot agree with some of what you stated! EGW visions came from YAHWEH, but things from history became the problem. She read a lot of history books and wrote what the authors stated without given them credit! History was in its infancy and there were a lot of wrong calculation by men who claim themselves as Biblical scholars! Biblical Commentaries and Dictionaries were on the rise and written by various Protestant ministers. And Universities and Colleges had begun to spring up all over United States teaching more and more Biblical “theology,” and not YAHWEH’S truth according to the Commandments.

To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isa 8:20 KJV

 Also, EGW, along with the church pioneers, held on to certain erroneous religious thoughts from the churches they came from; even before becoming organized as the SDA Church. But she began to realize, through her relationship with THE HOLY SPIRIT and as a messenger of YAHSHUA, that the Bible needed to be studied even deeper. Several years before she died, she was inspired to understand that Daniel and Revelation were not truly understood and she was convince, that the church was holding on to some errors that even she thought at one time was true. She pleaded in Testimony to the Ministers p. 105-119 on how to study the Bible, that YAHWEH ELOHE, THE FATHER is INFAILLABE but we are not! She wrote that we did not understand Daniel and Revelation and when they are understood; there will be a revival in the church. She pointed that this would happen just before YAHSHUA’S coming or in the last days! She always throughout her writing said to take the Bible it was our only creed of faith!

“The Investigative Judgement Doctrine was the final theological mechanism used to justify Miller's lie ( that the timing of the 2nd Coming could be known ).” 

You know a lie is something you say to cover up something to keep from admitting the truth! Miller misunderstood the Scriptures as we all have! He was sincere, he was not covering up or trying to lie or deceive anyone. YAHWEH allowed the misunderstanding because the truth would be understood. That is why studying the Bible must be deeply investigated and not surface concepts or witty ideas from those who think they are so call “prophets.” John was the last prophet, but THE HOLY SPIRIT is needed to provide and lead us into truth. It takes a person like Miller who is sincere to research his mistake and to find the truth. Sadly, he allowed those around him to persuade him that the true day of Atonement was not correct and it was! I am not going to judge Miller because only YAHSHUA saves!

“Matthew 27, 50: “Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last.[r]  At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom”.”

YAHSHUA, the second Adam died, so HE gave up HIS breathe and not a ghost that’s all!

“Exodus 26, 34: "And the veil shall separate for you the holy place from the most holy". 

The sanctuary was one long room SEPARATED by a thick curtain, a veil - a veil that was torn from "TOP" to bottom when Jesus died, leaving ONE COMPARTMENT. “

Yes, but the veil separated it into two rooms, one part Holy the other The Most Holy. Yes, once the veil was torn all could see what was behind the curtains. Nothing, because the Ark of the Covenant was already gone and hidden! This showed that this temple was not needed anymore! Now the Heavenly Sanctuary, Rev 4:1 says clearly a door and not a veil or curtains! There was one place that was like the Heavenly Sanctuary and it too had a gate! Eden, the Garden was the Most Holy Place!

Again, I will continue to state that we must prove all things. I am just a presenter, I give you the evidence for you to check out. As I search the Scriptures to present to you what I have found, it is still up to each and everyone to check out my sources, which always I give freely. Then each must make a choice in their own mind that should always include THE HOLY SPIRIT, to see if these things are so! The choice is left up to each individual!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

I keep watching folks post that Ellen denied being a prophet when in fact she didn't... What she denied was being 'just a prophet'.

"I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there".

"My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people".

Scripture says of John the Baptist:

"But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment?  Yea and I say unto you MORE THAN A PROPHET.  For this is he of whom it is written, Behold I send my messenger thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee". Matthew 11, 9

So, John the Baptist was a prophet AND THEN SOME - precisely the same thing Ellen claimed.

 Ellen White
As soon as I take my pen in hand, I am not in darkness as to what to write. It is as plain and clear as a voice speaking to me, ‘I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go’” (2MR 319).

"Some are ready to inquire: 'Who told Sister White these things?' They have even put the question to me: 'Did anyone tell you these things?' I could answer them: 'Yes; yes, the angel of God has spoken to me.' But what they mean is: 'Have the brethren and sisters been exposing their faults?' For the future, I shall not belittle the testimonies that God has given me, to make explanations to try to satisfy such narrow minds, but shall treat all such questions as an insult to the Spirit of God. God has seen fit to thrust me into positions in which He has not placed any other one in our ranks. He has laid upon me burdens of reproof that He has not given to any other one." (Testimonies, vol. 3, pp. 314, 315)

As for the curtain in the Sanctuary separating the holy from the most holy place. You would agree that it was ONE room made into two compartments BY the veil? 

When Jesus died on the cross, what was it that caused the curtain to be torn from "TOP" to bottom? 

 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

3 hours ago, Gustave said:

I keep watching folks post that Ellen denied being a prophet when in fact she didn't... What she denied was being 'just a prophet'.

"I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there".

"My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people".

Scripture says of John the Baptist:

"But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment?  Yea and I say unto you MORE THAN A PROPHET.  For this is he of whom it is written, Behold I send my messenger thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee". Matthew 11, 9

So, John the Baptist was a prophet AND THEN SOME - precisely the same thing Ellen claimed.

 Ellen White
As soon as I take my pen in hand, I am not in darkness as to what to write. It is as plain and clear as a voice speaking to me, ‘I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go’” (2MR 319).

"Some are ready to inquire: 'Who told Sister White these things?' They have even put the question to me: 'Did anyone tell you these things?' I could answer them: 'Yes; yes, the angel of God has spoken to me.' But what they mean is: 'Have the brethren and sisters been exposing their faults?' For the future, I shall not belittle the testimonies that God has given me, to make explanations to try to satisfy such narrow minds, but shall treat all such questions as an insult to the Spirit of God. God has seen fit to thrust me into positions in which He has not placed any other one in our ranks. He has laid upon me burdens of reproof that He has not given to any other one." (Testimonies, vol. 3, pp. 314, 315)

As for the curtain in the Sanctuary separating the holy from the most holy place. You would agree that it was ONE room made into two compartments BY the veil? 

When Jesus died on the cross, what was it that caused the curtain to be torn from "TOP" to bottom? 

 

 

 

Gustave: "I keep watching folks post that Ellen denied being a prophet when in fact she didn't... What she denied was being 'just a prophet'." Look if I makes it very clear what I am and what I am not then accept it. But let's go back to Matthew 11:9, the word, "more than a prophet," was that John the Baptist in the "spirit of Elijah," not only prophesied about THE MESSIAH! He had the honor and privilege to meet HIM and baptized HIM! Now we move to what the Bible said not about prophets but about messengers will be in the last days!

But this is that which has been spoken by the prophet Joel, And it shall be in the last days, YAHWEH says, I will pour from MY SPIRIT on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; And also I will pour out My SPIRIT on MY servants and handmaids in those days, and they shall prophesy. Act 2:16-18 HRB

When one see the word "prophesy," they assume that you must be a prophet to do that! Well let see what the Bible says on that:

But the one prophesying to men speaks for building up, and encouragement, and comfort. The one speaking in a language builds himself up, but he prophesying builds up a Congregation. And I wish all of you to speak in various languages, but I would even rather that you may speak under inspiration. For the one speaking under inspiration is greater than the one speaking in languages, unless he interpret, that the Congregation may receive building up. 1Co 14:3-5 HRB

Peter and the apostle. knew that now there would be teachers unction by THE HOLY SPIRIT that will lead them to all truth! There were still prophets in their day and working with John, knew where he was and what his fellow man was given. He stated:

But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and denying the MASTER who has bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Pe 2:1 HRB

Now Peter did not continue to say false prophets instead, he said false teachers. This coincided with Acts 2:16-18 The final proof comes from the Bible again:

The Revelation of YAHSHUA MASHIYACH, which ELOHIYM gave unto HIM, to shew unto HIS servants things which must shortly come to pass; and HE sent and signified it by HIS angel unto HIS servant John: Who bare record of the Word of ELOHIYM, and of the Testimony of YAHSHUA MASHIYACH, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1:1 John Sacred Name KJV

From the time of the end of the 2300 prophecy, sons and daughters now had dreams/visions and both begin to edify or built up the congregation known as the church! Uriah Smith, EGW, and others that had dreams/visions saw prophecies being more clearer than before! This was declare in Daniel that his book that would be sealed and later much more given to John; would be open. EGW made it clear 5BIO p. 357, that she was called and she state YAHSHUA, HIMSELF said; she was call to be HIS messenger! She later said; "I have no other claim," and from her youth she was called to be a messenger! Later on she falter with this statement; "I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title." She let it go about what people called her, but again she herself made not claim to the title!!!!!

. . . 'Your work,' HE instructed me, 'is to bear MY Word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. MY SPIRIT and MY POWER shall be with you.' . . .

Than she retracted even the thought that other should call her a prophet!

"When I was last in Battle Creek, I said before a large congregation that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Twice I referred to this matter, intending each time to make the statement, 'I do not claim to be a prophetess.' If I spoke otherwise than this, let all now understand that what I had in mind to say was that I do not claim the title of prophet or prophetess" (Review and Herald, July 26, 1906 all of the above quotes)

Here we have it state again:

I understood that some were anxious to know if Mrs. White still held the same views that she did years ago when they had heard her speak in the sanitarium grove, in the Tabernacle, and at the camp meetings held in the suburbs of Battle Creek. I assured them that the message she bears today is the same that she has borne during the sixty years of her public ministry. . . 1SM p. 35

Finally, just a few years before her death, she remain firm declaring she did not claim to be a prophet and if she spoke something different then be clear she was not a prophetess or prophet!!!  That is what she said, I respect her and she signify it;  Saying of YAHSHUA ,that she was to be HIS messenger. YAHSHUA would have told her that she would be a prophet like HE told the righteous king that Abraham lied to for the second time.

And now return the wife of the man, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you, and you shall live. And if you do not restore her, know that surely, you shall die, you and all that are yours. Gen 20:7

Now I take the Bible and EGW own words but that's my choice! The Bible says who will ye serve, well I obey and serve THE ALMIGHTY ONES! Everything EGW saw in her visions for the entire church was in the Bible already! She was not given any future events that differed from John of the last days! If so show me! Was she revealed secret things of people lives yes, that made her more than a prophet. Was she historically sound no! Was she revealed everything no! She said herself that Daniel and Revelation was not understood and would be at the end of time! Yes, she saw the sanitorium burned down, but she saw beds and could give the correct account of them! She saw San Francisco burn and the publishing houses but none of these were Biblical or pertain to the Bible. They were because of sin and wrongdoing but not prophetic for the last days!

My mother had a vision or dream that she would build a church in the south. Strangely we were looking for land! The land we first saw we did not like, I notice this map showing land with a creek. I told my mother and father also the real estate agent about it. It had creeks and it was large, the real estate lady took us there on my mother's request. My mother and I walk the land and came out by a large rock! My mother said; This is what I saw in my dream!" That was in 1983, in 1992 a church was built on 3 acres of the land! Emmanuel SDA Church of Greenville Georgia! YAHSHUA gave her that dream and I testify to it today! The conference did not build the Church, we did with our own money and it became into the sister of SDA Churches of the South Atlantic Conference! I do not compare my mother's dream or vision with the message given to EGW but both came from YAHSHUA! EGW did not reveal everything to EGW like it was reveal to John. More sons and daughters today will be given an understanding to prophesied the prophecy for the last days! We need no more prophets we need edification and the gifts of THE HOLY SPIRIT to lead us today into all truth!

Happy Sabbath and bless!

[Gustave]

Stinsonmarri, 

I'm not disputing that there were prophets in BIble times - what I'm saying is that "Canonical Prophets" have continuing authority and local prophets don't.

"Public Revelation" terminated at the death of the last Apostle.

 I would grant that private revelation is still in operation today.

Are you claiming that Ellen White's prophetic utterances are "Public Revelation" ?

[stinsonmarri]

I made one error, I said Uriah Smith, when I meant Hiram Edison. Please forgive my error!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

Stinsonmarri, 

I'm not disputing that there were prophets in BIble times - what I'm saying is that "Canonical Prophets" have continuing authority and local prophets don't.

"Public Revelation" terminated at the death of the last Apostle.

 I would grant that private revelation is still in operation today.

Are you claiming that Ellen White's prophetic utterances are "Public Revelation" ?

Gustave: "Canonical Prophets," what is that some new theological term? Well you got me because I never read anything like that in the Bible nor EGW!!!! Pray tell what are these prophet utterances that are public revelation! They should be in the Bible because she said not to take her word over the Bible. So can you please provide them for me?

Blessings!

[Gustave]

2 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Gustave: "Canonical Prophets," what is that some new theological term? Well you got me because I never read anything like that in the Bible nor EGW!!!! Pray tell what are these prophet utterances that are public revelation! They should be in the Bible because she said not to take her word over the Bible. So can you please provide them for me?

Blessings!

A Canonical Prophet is a Prophet found in the Bible, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. that are read today because they are part of the Canon of Scripture.

The authority of Canonical Prophet is continuing after their physical death because their revelations are from God and therefore "public" (for all people).

A local prophet is only known in it's community and provided they are not found to be fake have authority within their circle of influence ONLY while they are alive. Once the prophet dies that's it - their authority is not "continuing". 

My question to you is that do you believe Ellen White to be a Canonical prophet - i.e. a prophet of equal authority to say, Isiah, Jeremiah, etc?

 

[Gregory Matthews]

In commenting on the above posts:

*  Gustave has done well in stating in a very short post what a canonical prophet is.

*  The Bible mentions what Gustave calls local prophets where were not canonical, such as Nathan and Gad.

*  The SDA denomination does not teach that Ellen White was canonical.  Some of our members seem to believe that she was.  But that is counter to SDA teaching.

*  No, this is not some new term.  The word "canonical" has been around for several hundred years.  It is a basic term used by students of Scripture.

 

[Gustave]

Stinsonmarri, here is the evolution of the Investigative Judgement.

 

Time hack: 1818 - 1851
Location (s): New York & Maine
Players: George Storrs, Samual Snow, William Miller, Ellen White & her immediate religious contemporaries

William Miller ( Feb 15, 1792 - Dec 20, 1849 ) was a Baptist Minister who felt he had cracked the chronology code for the 2nd Advent of Christ...
...Miller initially realized this by 1818 via personal Bible study but did not go public with the information until August 1831.
...& in 1832 Miller submitted a series of 16 article via the "Vermont Telegraph" & was soon burried with interest by readers.

By 1834 there was so much interest in Miller's theory he produced a synopsis of it in a 64 page tract - which was titled...
..."Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ, about the year 1843".

Miller's followers increased greatly from 1840 due to a religious named Joshua Vaughan Himes who was an experienced publsher...
...Himes, by 1842 had established the periodical paper "Signs of the Times" in effort to get the word out in-mass.
...It worked.

William Miller's message was: Repent & get ready - for Jesus will come in Spring 1843 or 1844...
...That was the TOTAL of Miller's message, there was NOTHING ELSE.
 

Miller said:

My principles in brief, are, that Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, cleanse, purify, and take posession of the saints, sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21,1844.

As history aptly demonstrates, Jesus did NOT return in the spring of 1843 OR in the spring of 1844....
...Spring 1843 = 1st disapointment / spring 1844 = 2nd disapointment.

Subsequent to the 2nd disapointment two members of the Millerite movement produced a compelling schema...
...That Christ would return on the 10th day of the 7th month using calendation which was alien to the Gregorian.
...The two men were George Storrs & Samuel Snow, their schema was called, The 7th Month Movement & True Midnight Cry.

Storrs and Snow presented their 7th month midnight cry view at the Adventist Campmeeting in early August 1844...
...August, September, October, a period of approximately 3 months was "the true midnight cry" whereas the Gospel was to be preached.
...Until the cry terminated 22 October 1844. Imagine someone screaming impending doom for 3 months and then it stops.
...That was the midnight cry.

William Miller rejected this view until literally the last moment when he finally gave in to Storrs and Snow...
...Miller wrote the following on October 6, 1844.
 

William Miller thanks Storrs said:

Dear Bro. Himes, I see a glory in the seventh month movement which I never saw before. Thank the Lord, O my soul. Let Brother Snow, Brother Storrs and others be blessed for their instrumentality in opening my eyes. I am almost home
, Glory! Glory! Glory!!! I see that the time is correct...

As is clearly demonstrated - the Seventh Month & Midnight cry was NOT via Miller, Miller only accepted this new teaching from Storrs and Snow...
...Storrs is credited as being the mentor of the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses ( Charles Tazz Russel ).

Miller continued to believe in the 7th month movement after October 1844 and maintained the chance for salvation for others was past...
...Until Miller rejected the 7th month movement in early 1845 and started to preach against the "shut door" view held by the likes of Joseph Turner.
...Miller, Himes and the other initial Millerite leaders formulated the "Albany Adventist Conference" to combat "the shut door" or 7th month movement.

William Miller, Himes and the remaining original Advent leaders formulated the 1st Adventist conference to combat the abominations which came from the shut door group...
...Such as perfectionism, spirit trips ( Visions ) & forms of foot worship.
...It is at this approximate point Ellen White enters the time hack.

On one hand you have Miller along with the initial Millerite leaders pleading with the "shut door group" that the 7th month movement was false and people can still be saved....
...& on the other hand you have the shut door group claiming those who left the shut door had become babylon & salvation was over for the world.
...Ellen White was 100% on the "SHUT DOOR SIDE" & used her claimed visions to keep people in their error.
 

Ellen White said:

Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said, that it was not God that had led them out so far.
The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight
of the mark and of Jesus, and fell of teh path down into the dark wicked world below. It was just AS IMPOSSIBLE
for THEM to get on the path again and go to the city AS ALL THE WICKED WORLD WHICH GOD HAD REJECTED.

Click to expand...

Them = the Adventists WHO had given up on the 7th month movement.....
...Once they permanetly gave it up their salvation was just as impossible as those who rejected the 7th month movement.

James White ( Ellen's husband ) provides a summary of Ellen's 1st vision and details WHY God gave it to her.
 

James White said:

When she received her first vision Dec 1844, she and all the band in Portland Maine had given up the midnight cry, and shut door as
being in the past. It was then that the Lord shew her in vision the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then
related her vision to the band, and about 60 confessed their error and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God.

So, shortly after the Great Disapointment Ellen had given up on the 7th month movement and "SHUT DOOR"....
...But on December 1844 Ellen gets a vision from God which re-establishes her belief in the 7th month and shut door!

Least ANY not understand exactly what the "SHUT DOOR" doctrine was understood to be.
 

William Miller said:

we have done OUR work in warning sinners, and in trying to awake a formal church. God in his providence has SHUT THE DOOR;
we can ONLY stir "one another up" to be patient; and be dilligent to make our calling and election sure.

Notice the date - at this point Miller is STILL maintaining the Midnight CRY doctrine Storrs and Snow convinced him of.....
...Approximately 2 weeks PRIOR to 22 October 1844!
 

James White said:

From the ASCENSTION, to the SHUTTING OF THE DOOR in October 1844 Jesus stood wth widespread arms of love, and mercy
ready to receive and plead the cause of EVERY sinner, who would come to God by him.

Day Star sept 20 said:

The fall of babylon commenced in the spring of 43 when the churches all around, began to fall into a cold state,
and was complete on the 7th month 44 when their last faint ray of hope was taken up from a wicked world church.

This next quote will leave no doubt as to Ellen using her visions to teach MASSIVE error...
...It is the terminus of any argument that she didn't.
 

Ellen White said:

After I had the vision and God gave me light, he bade me to deliver it to the band, but I shrank from it. I was young,
and I thought they would not receive it from me. I disobeyed the Lord and instead of remaining at home, where the meeting
was to be that night. I got in a sleigh in the morning and rode three or 4 miles and there I found Joseph Turner. Here merely inquired how I was
and if I was in the way of my DUTY. I said nothing, for I knew I was not. I passed up chamber and did not see him agan for two hours, when he came up, asked if I was to be at meeting that night.
I told him no, He said he wanted to hear my vision and thought it DUTY for me to go home. I told him I should not. He said no more but went away.
I thought and told those around me if I wnt I would have to come OUT AGAINST his views, THINKING HE BELIEVED WITH THE REST. I had not told any of them what God had shown me,
and I did not tell them in what I should cross his track. Very early the next morning Joseph Turner called, said he was haste going out of the city in a short time,
and wanted that I should tell him all that God had shown me in vision. It was with fear and trembling I told him all. After I had got through he said he had told out the same last evening.
I REJOICED, for I had expected he was coming out against me. for all the while Ihad NOT HEARD ANY ONE SAY WHAT HE BELIEVED.

Click to expand...

Ironic, isn't IT! At the point Miller is giving all he has of what little of his earthly life he's got left to pleading with people to drop the "SHUT DOOR"...
...Ellen White's VISION perfectly agrees with the very person Miller and the Albany Adventist Conference is trying to fight.
...Not only that but the Ellen states later in the same letter that the ONES TURNER didn't convince the previous night she was able to.
...Once she told THEM what God "SHEW HER"!

Ellen continued to write "shut door" statements until 1850 -51....
...There are a slew of them I can quote and all mean the same thing.

 

Given Ellen's affirmations (or better said what she claimed were God's affirmations) I would be hesitant to even consider her prophetic utterances 'private revelation'.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

14 hours ago, Gustave said:

A Canonical Prophet is a Prophet found in the Bible, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. that are read today because they are part of the Canon of Scripture.

The authority of Canonical Prophet is continuing after their physical death because their revelations are from God and therefore "public" (for all people).

A local prophet is only known in it's community and provided they are not found to be fake have authority within their circle of influence ONLY while they are alive. Once the prophet dies that's it - their authority is not "continuing". 

My question to you is that do you believe Ellen White to be a Canonical prophet - i.e. a prophet of equal authority to say, Isiah, Jeremiah, etc?

 

Gustave: Thanks for the info and I looked it up myself. I never accepted a lot of theological concepts; I didn't in College and to be honest I don't even now. To be honest I vaguely recall it but I dismiss it! Let me tell you why! The prophet of the Bible are true and I do not have to give them some theological label regardless how long the label have been out. The Bible speaks of false prophets which I also believe is true. I am not going give out theological labels. Because I do not believe in theology, I believe in truth. Theology is a pagan Greek name meaning "the study of Theos/Zeus," and I just do not include it with the Bible. I don't follow theology from men who teach against the validity of truth. There is no partial truth it is either true or a lie! I made sound harsh but again, it is how I feel. I studied all types of religions in College and I compared them to our original message that was proven, it came from the Bible, that's where I stand.

 What I will say is this EGW is not a prophet that is what she claimed. She is not in the Bible and the Bible does not state that prophets will continue in the last days. The Bible made it clear that THE HOLY SPIRIT would be pour out in the last days. Both women and men will prophesy which includes dreams and visions. I do not see prophets mention here for the last days! People who make claims that they are prophet are false! There will be one identifying false prophet in the last days and that is the "two horned beast." Rev 13:11-17; 16:13; 19:20

I think I was very clear and provided the evidence for my stand from EGW herself. She do not claim herself to be a prophetess or a prophet but a messenger. I stand with her claim she is not a prophetess or a prophet! Everything that she saw in vision dealing with the Bible truths were already written in the Bible. Instead of questioning me do as I have done, and I have kindly, asked  you to do. Show where she has given a prophetic vision beyond what is in the Bible! Provide that she made a claim that she was given a prophetic vision that is not in the Bible and was told that she was given more to add on to the Bible. That would be proof! I know what she is and what she is not, I stand on that! However, that's my choice and I make this choice on what she stated herself. Again, all must make their own choice and live by it. Each soul will be either be lost or saved by their choice.

Pondering continuously over EGW being a prophet is not too me what is important. The visions that she had are! My problem with SDA as a whole we take on certain visions and leave out the others. Let tell the truth here, Some of her visions, the SDA have explanations written in her book, why? Too me they have done exactly what the Pharisees done with the Torah, their own interpretation call the Talmud. EGW visions do not need an explanation they come from the Bible. They send us back to the Bible and see how clear what was originally given, that man had stop studying. Hiram Edson was giving the key with his vision and work and we must not forget that! This is why we are suppose to be discussing this topic. I am elated because it needs to be discussed and digest. Until we look at Rev 4-7 and truly understand that THE LAMB open the book and the seven seals separately, and then call them seals why? We know that we must be seal, here is the clue and we know that the dead had to  be sealed first! We used to preach that! If EGW said that Daniel and Revelation was not understood then, don't you think we need to go back over the scenes, review these passages under the true meaning of the seals, look and see there were only four horses. Stop claiming that YAHSHUA was the first rider, how could HE BE!!! HE is not in the Book of Life, HE is the ONE who took the Book from HIS FATHER and opened it! Why don't we wake up! Listen to what we are saying and make sense out of it. That's what's important!

Blessings!