The Investigative Judgment

May 27, 2018

Stinsonmarri,

William Miller's Advent message was as explicit as it was simple 1), repent, because Jesus is coming & 2), and it's either gonna be in the Spring of 1843 OR the spring of 1844.

That was IT, there was no other message. Because Jesus didn't return in 1843 or 1844 HALF of Miller's message was a lie.

If you could put yourself into time machine and go back to that time you could ONLY judge the Advent message against what the Bible said about date setting the 2nd Coming of Christ.

If an individual can claim that a lie they accepted is "OK" because a mistake was made in the message and that the messages timing was right but got the event wrong then the Bible defaults into so much fish wrap.

May 27, 2018

Stinsonmarri: It is certainly your right to chose not to use words such as "canonical." But verbal and written communication is grounded upon people using words that have a commonly agreed upon meaning. When people chose not to do s o, communication is disrupted and people often misunderstand each other. In Christianity, the word "canonical" has a critically important meaning, with a precise definition. If you chose to communicate with others, either verbally or in writing, and chose not to use that work, it is likely that others will not understand you and you may also not understand them.

May 27, 2018

Gustave, Miller message was false. But, it was not a lie.

The word "lie" has the connotation that something was either intentionally false or intended to deceive. Miller believed what he proclaimed. Therefore, while his messaged was false, it was not a lie.

By the way, yes Miller's message originally began in the Spring of 1843 and later moved to include a period of time that ended in the Fall of 1844. But, that time period was a 12 month period that simply changed from Spring to Fall. That is why the October 22 date is called the Great Disappointment as that date ended the one year period of time.

May 27, 2018

30 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gustave, Miller message was false. But, it was not a lie.

The word "lie" has the connotation that something was either intentionally false or intended to deceive. Miller believed what he proclaimed. Therefore, while his messaged was false, it was not a lie.

By the way, yes Miller's message originally began in the Spring of 1843 and later moved to include a period of time that ended in the Fall of 1844. But, that time period was a 12 month period that simply changed from Spring to Fall. That is why the October 22 date is called the Great Disappointment as that date ended the one year period of time.

The message was a two part one with the 1st part being accurate ( repent because Jesus will come again ) and relevant for any stage of history. The 2nd part of the message was that the 2nd coming of Christ would take place in the spring of 1843 (1st disappointment) or the spring of 1844 (2nd disappointment). When Jesus didn't return in the Spring of 1844 the next mechanism employed was that Jesus would return in October of 1844 and when that didn't happen this was called the 'Great Disappointment'.

To any individual who joined Miller's movement between 1842 and November 1844 what additional message would they have heard? Why was it called the Great Disappointment if not for the failure of the message?

May 27, 2018

The message was false. It did not happen. It was not a lie as all believed it and did not knowingly proclaim what they knew to be false. By the way, SDA historians could, if they wanted to do so, point out an inaccuracy in your statement in the post above. But, that would not make you to be a liar as you have no intention to decieve. It would only mean that you were inaccurate in a minor detail.

May 28, 2018

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The message was false. It did not happen. It was not a lie as all believed it and did not knowingly proclaim what they knew to be false. By the way, SDA historians could, if they wanted to do so, point out an inaccuracy in your statement in the post above. But, that would not make you to be a liar as you have no intention to decieve. It would only mean that you were inaccurate in a minor detail.

I can agree that William Miller really believed he was right, that's not what I'm saying (that he intentionally was lying).

What I'm saying is that this new teaching being promulgated by Miller claiming to know when the 2nd Coming was going to be IS a textbook definition of a Doctrine.

In all likelihood this new "Doctrine" turned off more people to Christianity than it attracted - this would reasonably qualify the teaching as a "Doctrine of Demons".

If Demons have a ranking structure with Satan being the General - and if Satan is the "author of lies" what would a Doctrine be that essentially made fun of Christianity and drove more people away from it than it attracted?

May 28, 2018

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

Stinsonmarri, here is the evolution of the Investigative Judgement.

Time hack: 1818 - 1851
Location (s): New York & Maine
Players: George Storrs, Samual Snow, William Miller, Ellen White & her immediate religious contemporaries

William Miller ( Feb 15, 1792 - Dec 20, 1849 ) was a Baptist Minister who felt he had cracked the chronology code for the 2nd Advent of Christ...
...Miller initially realized this by 1818 via personal Bible study but did not go public with the information until August 1831.
...& in 1832 Miller submitted a series of 16 article via the "Vermont Telegraph" & was soon burried with interest by readers.

By 1834 there was so much interest in Miller's theory he produced a synopsis of it in a 64 page tract - which was titled...
..."Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ, about the year 1843".

Miller's followers increased greatly from 1840 due to a religious named Joshua Vaughan Himes who was an experienced publsher...
...Himes, by 1842 had established the periodical paper "Signs of the Times" in effort to get the word out in-mass.
...It worked.

William Miller's message was: Repent & get ready - for Jesus will come in Spring 1843 or 1844...
...That was the TOTAL of Miller's message, there was NOTHING ELSE.

Miller said:

My principles in brief, are, that Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, cleanse, purify, and take posession of the saints, sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21,1844.

As history aptly demonstrates, Jesus did NOT return in the spring of 1843 OR in the spring of 1844....
...Spring 1843 = 1st disapointment / spring 1844 = 2nd disapointment.

Subsequent to the 2nd disapointment two members of the Millerite movement produced a compelling schema...
...That Christ would return on the 10th day of the 7th month using calendation which was alien to the Gregorian.
...The two men were George Storrs & Samuel Snow, their schema was called, The 7th Month Movement & True Midnight Cry.

Storrs and Snow presented their 7th month midnight cry view at the Adventist Campmeeting in early August 1844...
...August, September, October, a period of approximately 3 months was "the true midnight cry" whereas the Gospel was to be preached.
...Until the cry terminated 22 October 1844. Imagine someone screaming impending doom for 3 months and then it stops.
...That was the midnight cry.

William Miller rejected this view until literally the last moment when he finally gave in to Storrs and Snow...
...Miller wrote the following on October 6, 1844.

William Miller thanks Storrs said:

Dear Bro. Himes, I see a glory in the seventh month movement which I never saw before. Thank the Lord, O my soul. Let Brother Snow, Brother Storrs and others be blessed for their instrumentality in opening my eyes. I am almost home
, Glory! Glory! Glory!!! I see that the time is correct...

As is clearly demonstrated - the Seventh Month & Midnight cry was NOT via Miller, Miller only accepted this new teaching from Storrs and Snow...
...Storrs is credited as being the mentor of the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses ( Charles Tazz Russel ).

Miller continued to believe in the 7th month movement after October 1844 and maintained the chance for salvation for others was past...
...Until Miller rejected the 7th month movement in early 1845 and started to preach against the "shut door" view held by the likes of Joseph Turner.
...Miller, Himes and the other initial Millerite leaders formulated the "Albany Adventist Conference" to combat "the shut door" or 7th month movement.

William Miller, Himes and the remaining original Advent leaders formulated the 1st Adventist conference to combat the abominations which came from the shut door group...
...Such as perfectionism, spirit trips ( Visions ) & forms of foot worship.
...It is at this approximate point Ellen White enters the time hack.

On one hand you have Miller along with the initial Millerite leaders pleading with the "shut door group" that the 7th month movement was false and people can still be saved....
...& on the other hand you have the shut door group claiming those who left the shut door had become babylon & salvation was over for the world.
...Ellen White was 100% on the "SHUT DOOR SIDE" & used her claimed visions to keep people in their error.

Ellen White said:

Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said, that it was not God that had led them out so far.
The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight
of the mark and of Jesus, and fell of teh path down into the dark wicked world below. It was just AS IMPOSSIBLE
for THEM to get on the path again and go to the city AS ALL THE WICKED WORLD WHICH GOD HAD REJECTED.

Click to expand...

Them = the Adventists WHO had given up on the 7th month movement.....
...Once they permanetly gave it up their salvation was just as impossible as those who rejected the 7th month movement.

James White ( Ellen's husband ) provides a summary of Ellen's 1st vision and details WHY God gave it to her.

James White said:

When she received her first vision Dec 1844, she and all the band in Portland Maine had given up the midnight cry, and shut door as
being in the past. It was then that the Lord shew her in vision the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then
related her vision to the band, and about 60 confessed their error and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God.

So, shortly after the Great Disapointment Ellen had given up on the 7th month movement and "SHUT DOOR"....
...But on December 1844 Ellen gets a vision from God which re-establishes her belief in the 7th month and shut door!

Least ANY not understand exactly what the "SHUT DOOR" doctrine was understood to be.

William Miller said:

we have done OUR work in warning sinners, and in trying to awake a formal church. God in his providence has SHUT THE DOOR;
we can ONLY stir "one another up" to be patient; and be dilligent to make our calling and election sure.

Notice the date - at this point Miller is STILL maintaining the Midnight CRY doctrine Storrs and Snow convinced him of.....
...Approximately 2 weeks PRIOR to 22 October 1844!

James White said:

From the ASCENSTION, to the SHUTTING OF THE DOOR in October 1844 Jesus stood wth widespread arms of love, and mercy
ready to receive and plead the cause of EVERY sinner, who would come to God by him.

Day Star sept 20 said:

The fall of babylon commenced in the spring of 43 when the churches all around, began to fall into a cold state,
and was complete on the 7th month 44 when their last faint ray of hope was taken up from a wicked world church.

This next quote will leave no doubt as to Ellen using her visions to teach MASSIVE error...
...It is the terminus of any argument that she didn't.

Ellen White said:

After I had the vision and God gave me light, he bade me to deliver it to the band, but I shrank from it. I was young,
and I thought they would not receive it from me. I disobeyed the Lord and instead of remaining at home, where the meeting
was to be that night. I got in a sleigh in the morning and rode three or 4 miles and there I found Joseph Turner. Here merely inquired how I was
and if I was in the way of my DUTY. I said nothing, for I knew I was not. I passed up chamber and did not see him agan for two hours, when he came up, asked if I was to be at meeting that night.
I told him no, He said he wanted to hear my vision and thought it DUTY for me to go home. I told him I should not. He said no more but went away.
I thought and told those around me if I wnt I would have to come OUT AGAINST his views, THINKING HE BELIEVED WITH THE REST. I had not told any of them what God had shown me,
and I did not tell them in what I should cross his track. Very early the next morning Joseph Turner called, said he was haste going out of the city in a short time,
and wanted that I should tell him all that God had shown me in vision. It was with fear and trembling I told him all. After I had got through he said he had told out the same last evening.
I REJOICED, for I had expected he was coming out against me. for all the while Ihad NOT HEARD ANY ONE SAY WHAT HE BELIEVED.

Click to expand...

Ironic, isn't IT! At the point Miller is giving all he has of what little of his earthly life he's got left to pleading with people to drop the "SHUT DOOR"...
...Ellen White's VISION perfectly agrees with the very person Miller and the Albany Adventist Conference is trying to fight.
...Not only that but the Ellen states later in the same letter that the ONES TURNER didn't convince the previous night she was able to.
...Once she told THEM what God "SHEW HER"!

Ellen continued to write "shut door" statements until 1850 -51....
...There are a slew of them I can quote and all mean the same thing.

Given Ellen's affirmations (or better said what she claimed were God's affirmations) I would be hesitant to even consider her prophetic utterances 'private revelation'.

Gustave: My brother that is not what I ask for at all. Come on my brother, I am a SDA too! I know about the Millerite movement and Snow “seventh-month movement.” Actually, it was Charles Tazz Russell who stole Storr's writings which started the Watch Tower Society, that led to the Jehovah Witness in the 1900's. I know the history and how fractions broke off from Miller's Movement, I did mention that myself!

The shut door was understood wrong, that was not only EGW but many pioneers. The thought and belief of the seventh month movement was correct but the truth about its history was all wrong. First, of all the seventh month was not some "Jewish," proclamation. Jew is a made up word by the Ashkenazi's who took over Rabbinic Judaism. The letter J was created in the Middle Ages and for the record the Ashkenazi's do not claim themselves as Hebrews or Israel, they are Israeli! There have never been a Judaism religion this is adding to the Bible! The faith was always called Israel including all 12 tribe. Hezekiah and Josiah both call throughout the land from the Kingdom of Judah and Israel to come together to worship as Israel and not Judah! You will not find it here!

And they established a decree to pass through a call to all Israel, from Beer-Sheba even to Dan, to come to make a passover to YAHWEH THE ELOHIYM of Israel in Jerusalem. For not many of them had done it as it is written. 2Ch 30:5

And Josiah removed all the idols out of all the lands that belonged to the sons of Israel, and caused everyone who was found in Israel to serve, to serve YAHWEH their ELOHIYM; all his days they did not turn away from following YAHWEH, THE ELOHIYM of their fathers. 2Ch 34:33

Then the NT:

But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 10:6 HRB

He saved others; HE is not able to save HIMSELF. If HE is the King of Israel, let HIM come down now from the torture stake and we will believe Him. Mat 27:42 HRB

Then assuredly, let all the house of Israel acknowledge that YAHWEH made known this same YAHSHUA whom you crucified, He is both ELOHIYM and MASHIYACH. Acts 2:36 SACRED NAMES KJV

This is what I reject adding to the Bible. Paul did not think that YAHSHUA was a Jew or himself if he did why write a letter to the "HEBREWS!" Wouldn't he call it the letter to Judah! These theologian Bible scholars made it appear that Paul called the old faith or the house of Israel Judaism, this is what was added: Jews' religion,G2454 found in Galatian 1:13! This is not true because if you take the time and look up the Greek, you would found Paul did not say religion at all! He was referring to his birth or country of Judah!

Rabbinic Judaism emerged from the Pharisaic movement that came out of the Babylonian exile. During the Babylonian capture, many Israelites had already lost their faith. We all the know the story of Daniel and the three Hebrews boys. Everyone bow to the image but them! Israel did what they always did intermarriage with other pagan ethnic groups. Those who returned continued this practice and yes Nehemiah put a stop to it. But as time went on the history shows that Persia and then Greek took over. From the Babylonian exile the Pharisaic rose and the Bible leaves a gap during the Maccabeans and the Rome had taken over Israel. By the time of YAHSHUA the Pharisees had become more powerful than the Sadducees who suppose to be the priest. The Pharisees claim they were the legal system of Israel. That's why they were call "rabbi or teachers of the law." They invented the writings of the Talmud and the priest follow their lead. Most of them was Hellenized and you know that is the belief of the Greeks thought!

After, the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD, the Sadducees or priest were no longer needed and they faded out! Rabbinic Judaism begin to grow as a religion and developed even stronger after the fall of the Roman Empire. As recorded in Acts, the people of Israel were spread across the then known world and this mean they were already mix with different ethnicities. But when the German became a part of the faith they changed the ideology to their ethnic people and called it Ashkenazi. Believe what you want but this is what was prophesied by Noah in Gen 9:27 that Japheth would dwell in the tents of Shem!

By the time of EGW and the Seven Month movement, everyone claim it to be Jewish! It was not! YAHWEH gave the Appointed Times in Gen 1:14 and the modern version Bibles provide the truth. But they use a pagan word call feast. It makes no sense because the supper that YAHWEH required was the passover! That wasn't a feast either, it was a simple meal! I urge everyone to know what the word feast mean and how it came about it's there folks! YAHWEH again reminded Israel that these were HIS Appointed Time. Now our pioneer did not know all of this back then! When they first accept the truth about the Day of Atonement which fell on October 22, 1844; they all thought they were going to Heaven and the door of salvation was close for the world! They were wrong and they realize themselves that they had to learn more truth themselves, this concept became a problem. The vision EGW had was factual but they did not understand everything all at once. Through Rachel Harris Oakes, they learned the truth about the Sabbath. If you know history of our church, EGW did not accept the Sabbath right away! But she finally did and with the problem of the shut and open door she stated:

For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. Ms. 4, 1883

For 60 years I have been in communication with heavenly messengers, and I have been constantly learning in reference to divine things.--Letter 86, 1906

This is what is true and let me say this as well there is no statement in the Bible of the Heavenly Sanctuary where you will find a shut door! They use those terms figuratively dealing with mercy and they realize they could not close it! What you will find is this:

I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept MY WORD, and hast not denied MY NAME. Rev 3:8

This is YAHSHUA stating figuratively about truth not a literal shut door, it will be open to all. That is what THE HOLY SPIRIT is doing, the truth will come out it will not be stopped! So nothing that you gave showed anything to prove that EGW was given more prophecy then what was in the Bible.

I again, ask no one to believe me but just check out the source and make your own choice as I have!

Blessings!

Edited May 28, 2018 by stinsonmarri
corrections!

May 28, 2018

5 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Stinsonmarri: It is certainly your right to chose not to use words such as "canonical." But verbal and written communication is grounded upon people using words that have a commonly agreed upon meaning. When people chose not to do s o, communication is disrupted and people often misunderstand each other. In Christianity, the word "canonical" has a critically important meaning, with a precise definition. If you chose to communicate with others, either verbally or in writing, and chose not to use that work, it is likely that others will not understand you and you may also not understand them.

Pastor: I appreciate what you have stated respectfully. But, I have wrote in college, articles and on other forums for many years just using the word prophet or false prophet. I make it clear that these are the Bible prophets and all sir do understand. Don't you think that using Bible prophets is just as good as canonical? Is that what canonical suppose to prove that what is listed is sacred from the Bible? My history takes me back to pagan Rome who put this concept into play. I just believe in simple things along with Biblical words. I hope you understand where I am coming from? Thank you again!

Blessings!

May 28, 2018

Stinsonmarri, I am not Seventh-day Adventist, I'm Catholic.

May 28, 2018

Gustave: OOPS! I am sorry, I didn't mean in any way to insult your religion or your belief! Please forgive me! Well it is my pleasure my friend to stand up to the historical faith of SDA beginnings. It is a pleasure commenting with you and I hope we can continue. Sometime, ignorantly, I forget other people of other beliefs are in this forum. I am an old women and truly do not mean any harm. I guess I need stop with the old thing when you make a mistake. So just please forgive me!

Blessings!

May 28, 2018

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Gustave: OOPS! I am sorry, I didn't mean in any way to insult your religion or your belief! Please forgive me! Well it is my pleasure my friend to stand up to the historical faith of SDA beginnings. It is a pleasure commenting with you and I hope we can continue. Sometime, ignorantly, I forget other people of other beliefs are in this forum. I am an old women and truly do not mean any harm. I guess I need stop with the old thing when you make a mistake. So just please forgive me!

Blessings!

No harm done at all - Apologetics isn't for thin skinned people. We all put our respective faiths on the table for butchering ( testing ).

I've always thought if a person can't defend their faith it ISN'T "their faith", it's someone else's.

May 28, 2018

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

This is a normal process for any serious Bible student, to regularly examine what they believe, and to be willing to change that belief upon the discovery of further facts and knowledge from scripture that says differently. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and certainly, as Gregory said above, there was no lying involved. If nothing else, they showed great faith and courage for being willing to admit publicly that they had the wrong picture insofar as they were incorrectly framing the second coming.

The creator of the theory DROPPED it, Miller dropped it, in fact everyone except what became of the SDA's dropped it.

I'm not saying Miller intentionally lied, what I'm saying is who or what influenced Miller to create a Doctrine that flew in the face of one of Christ's most explicit instructions?

May 29, 2018

23 hours ago, Gustave said:

No harm done at all - Apologetics isn't for thin skinned people. We all put our respective faiths on the table for butchering ( testing ).

I've always thought if a person can't defend their faith it ISN'T "their faith", it's someone else's.

Well thank you very much. We still need to be respectful in all that we do and say!

May 29, 2018

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 3:39 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Gustave, Miller message was false. But, it was not a lie.

The word "lie" has the connotation that something was either intentionally false or intended to deceive. Miller believed what he proclaimed. Therefore, while his messaged was false, it was not a lie.

By the way, yes Miller's message originally began in the Spring of 1843 and later moved to include a period of time that ended in the Fall of 1844. But, that time period was a 12 month period that simply changed from Spring to Fall. That is why the October 22 date is called the Great Disappointment as that date ended the one year period of time.

Miller's message was a test.

It divided those who believe the word of God to the best of their understanding from those who rejected an understanding of a "thus saith the LORD" that did not fit their understanding.

I would venture to say that that is true of the Investigative Judgment doctrine as well.

May 29, 2018

On 5/28/2018 at 12:13 AM, Gustave said:

The creator of the theory DROPPED it, Miller dropped it, in fact everyone except what became of the SDA's dropped it.

I'm not saying Miller intentionally lied, what I'm saying is who or what influenced Miller to create a Doctrine that flew in the face of one of Christ's most explicit instructions?

Well let's be honest, every Protestant sect had done this. We all claim to believe in THE MOST HIGH, HIS SON, and THE HOLY SPIRIT. We all read from the Bible and various versions. But the Bible says this:

One YAHWEH, one faith, one baptism, One ELOHIYM and FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph 4:5, 6 SACRED NAMES KJV, WOY

So all these different sect of believers, the Bible says one faith, one baptism! So who is right? All have read this and the Bible also said:

Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Peter 1:20 KJV

Yet all of us know that, but still try to interpret the Bible instead of understand exactly what it says. Bad enough EGW saw that words had been change for this very reason. To escape the truth! This is the truth and it is very simple!

To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isa 8:20 KJV

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the Law of thy ELOHIYM, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6 SACRED NAMES KJV

So how many will step up and admit that they are wrong for not accepting these clear and simple Texts. It is so easy to call a person a liar without all of us taking a look of what we ourselves know to be true! Some may not understand because of the way they were taught! But those who know and do not make the change should not be condemn by any of us but only by THE FATHER. We all have sin and come short, but it is up to each individual like those in the past to confess their sins and erroneous understanding as we learn better. It is a choice, and an individual stand that each and everyone of us has to make. One faith, one baptism and let make this very clear YAHWEH says HE do not change!

Blessings!

May 29, 2018

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." (NIV)

Should not God's "solid foundation" also be SDA foundational doctrine?

If HE knows those who are His, then He does not need to "investigate" !

May 29, 2018

Rachel has raised a very important point. God does not need to investigate in order to figure out who is saved and eligible to spend eternity with God, and who is not saved. God knows.

The so-called Investigative Judgment (IJ), is not focused on God in that sense. The plan of salvation, in its beginning was focused on the false charge that if God actually gave His creation freedom of choice. The Investigative Judgment is an examination of the record of the candidates that assures the created, intelligent, beings in the Universe that they have freely chosen to spend eternity with God and that if they are allowed to do so, sin has been so eliminated that they will never choose to sin.

In it the Universe that needs to have this assurance.

God does not. God knows.

We who it is commonly stated are being judged, do not need to fear for our salvation. It is fixed and certain. With the end of the IJ, the Universe will also have that assurance.

May 29, 2018

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

We who it is commonly stated are being judged, do not need to fear for our salvation. It is fixed and certain. With the end of the IJ, the Universe will also have that assurance.

And it doesn't matter whether it started in 1844 or not.

May 30, 2018

12 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." (NIV)

Should not God's "solid foundation" also be SDA foundational doctrine?

If HE knows those who are His, then He does not need to "investigate" !

Of course HE Know who are HIS, but HE is judging all of us through our faith and our work. Work through faith is obeying the Law. There are so many Scriptures stating that THE FATHER will Judge the world. That includes both the righteous and the wicked: Gen 15:14; 18:25; Psa 82:8; Eccl 3:17; Isa 5:3; Luke 6:37; John 12:48 These are just a few, there are many all throughout the Bible. Each and everyone of us has a book with our deed being recorded. And the Bible states that:

I was looking until the thrones were cast down, and the ANCIENT of DAYS Sat, whose robe was white as snow and the HAIR of HIS HEAD like Pure Wool. HIS Throne was like flames of fire, its wheels like burning fire. A stream of fire went out and came out from before HIM. A thousand thousands served HIM, and ten thousand by ten thousand stood before HIM. The judgment was set and the books were opened. Dan 7:9, 10

Who shall give account to HIM that is ready to Judge the quick and the dead. 1Peter 4:5

And I saw Heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and HE that Sat upon HIM was called FAITHFUL and TRUE, and in RIGHTEOUSNESS HE doth Judge and make war. Rev 19:11

YAHSHUA will Judge the second phase of the Judgment. There are two the investigated phase, that is what is taking place in Heaven. It started Oct. 22, 1844 and all those who died and lived up to that point were judged. This included Enoch, Moses, Elijah and all return to Heaven with YAHSHUA! This dealt with the sealing and all who names remain in the Book of Life and other place in it! Now the living and the dead since 1844 are being investigated and judged until YAHWEH say it is finish. The second phase is when the saints both those who were resurrected will go over the books. They also will judge the angels and then they with YAHSHUA will return and HE is the EXECUTIVE JUDGE. Those who are righteous still now will remain righteous! Those who are filthy still will remain filthy! YAHSHUA will bring HIS Reward of each and everyone with HIM. The saints reward is the New Jerusalem that is coming with them inside and the soon New Earth where they will live in peace! That's their reward and the wicked, including Satan and his angels is everlasting death by fire! Read Rev Chapter 22.

Blessing!

May 31, 2018

On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 2:18 PM, JoeMo said:

And it doesn't matter whether it started in 1844 or not.

Regarding the Investigative judgment beginning in 1844.

What does matter is studying to show ourselves approved of God.

If God is pleased to reveal light in His word, we are obligated to follow that light.

If we reject light, we are in danger of being rejected by God (cf Hosea)

To postulate that it is not possible to tell if the IJ is a reality or if it had a specific beginning (or end date)

Is to take the position of the Jews of whom Jesus asked if John the Baptist was a prophet?

They replied that they could not tell, (not because they did not know, but because it was not a truth that they wanted to know)

Jesus replied, that neither would He give them any more information upon the subject of which they were asking.

To me that interaction states that if we won't see the light already given,

then we block from ourselves the source of more light that we claim to be seeking.

Truth is revealed in the study of the Investigative Judgment

May 31, 2018

9 hours ago, hch said:

To me that interaction states that if we won't see the light already given,

then we block from ourselves the source of more light that we claim to be seeking.

To me that interaction states that if we exclusively cling to something that may or may not be true light - putting on blinders to all other possibilities, - we may block from ourselves the source of a more accurate detailed light we claim to be seeking. Those of us seeking the truth should never close our minds. If I had closed my mind 45 years ago, I would still be proclaiming the Catholic "truth".

May 31, 2018

The word "investigative" is NOT in the Bible.

There IS no "investigative judgment".

May 31, 2018

On 5/30/2018 at 12:37 AM, stinsonmarri said:

Of course HE Know who are HIS, but HE is judging all of us through our faith and our work. Work through faith is obeying the Law. There are so many Scriptures stating that THE FATHER will Judge the world. That includes both the righteous and the wicked: Gen 15:14; 18:25; Psa 82:8; Eccl 3:17; Isa 5:3; Luke 6:37; John 12:48 These are just a few, there are many all throughout the Bible. Each and everyone of us has a book with our deed being recorded. And the Bible states that:

I was looking until the thrones were cast down, and the ANCIENT of DAYS Sat, whose robe was white as snow and the HAIR of HIS HEAD like Pure Wool. HIS Throne was like flames of fire, its wheels like burning fire. A stream of fire went out and came out from before HIM. A thousand thousands served HIM, and ten thousand by ten thousand stood before HIM. The judgment was set and the books were opened. Dan 7:9, 10

Who shall give account to HIM that is ready to Judge the quick and the dead. 1Peter 4:5

And I saw Heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and HE that Sat upon HIM was called FAITHFUL and TRUE, and in RIGHTEOUSNESS HE doth Judge and make war. Rev 19:11

YAHSHUA will Judge the second phase of the Judgment. There are two the investigated phase, that is what is taking place in Heaven. It started Oct. 22, 1844 and all those who died and lived up to that point were judged. This included Enoch, Moses, Elijah and all return to Heaven with YAHSHUA! This dealt with the sealing and all who names remain in the Book of Life and other place in it! Now the living and the dead since 1844 are being investigated and judged until YAHWEH say it is finish. The second phase is when the saints both those who were resurrected will go over the books. They also will judge the angels and then they with YAHSHUA will return and HE is the EXECUTIVE JUDGE. Those who are righteous still now will remain righteous! Those who are filthy still will remain filthy! YAHSHUA will bring HIS Reward of each and everyone with HIM. The saints reward is the New Jerusalem that is coming with them inside and the soon New Earth where they will live in peace! That's their reward and the wicked, including Satan and his angels is everlasting death by fire! Read Rev Chapter 22.

Blessing!

Lot of detail there - first phase, second phase, executive, investigative.

We read the SAME BIBLE, but we come to very different conclusions.

I thought NAMES were written in "the book" - not specific deeds. The Book of Life contains the NAMES of those who belong to Christ. Only Christ can "blot out" a name from that book.

The judgment of Daniel 7, is a judgment of Christ. It's NOT a judgment OF human beings. Has Christ demonstrated that He can cure sin - within the human heart? Has Christ shown that it is safe to give eternal life to humans - humans once infected with sin?

SM said: "YAHSHUA will Judge the second phase of the Judgment."

Where do you get that? Jesus said, "The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son" (John 5:22 NKJ). ALL JUDGMENT is all judgment!

Everything the Father has done - He has done THROUGH His Son. Everything the Father will yet do - He will do THROUGH His Son.

June 1, 2018

At the conclusion of the "judgment" of Daniel 7, dominion of earth is transferred FROM Satan (who took it by deception) TO Christ (who won it by His perfect obedience). The reason for His incarnation and perfect obedience, was to secure the dominion for Himself and for those human beings who would serve Him as their King.

The reason that the judgment of Daniel 7 has NOT YET taken place, is because the Kingdom is NOT YET COMPLETE. Souls will yet be won. Their names will be added to The Book of Life.

Only when a condition exists on earth, which precludes any addition of names to The Book, will The Book of Life (The Book of the Kingdom) be complete (for this age). When we reach the END of this age, such a condition will exist. Daniel 12:7 describes that condition.

"when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished". (Dan 12:7 NKJ) The "power of the holy people" is their power TO WITNESS. When they can no longer witness, because they are either incarcerated or dead - that's when it's over. The Kingdom is complete. At that point - not before - Christ can take possession of the Kingdom He has won.

June 1, 2018

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The word "investigative" is NOT in the Bible.

There IS no "investigative judgment".

Is it necessary to have a word in the Bible to make a teaching true?

The word trinity is not in the Bible either,

but it expresses our understanding of a teaching that is rock solid.

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The Investigative Judgment

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