The Investigative Judgment

[Gregory Matthews]

SDAs have often misunderstood in regard to the Sanctuary service and the sending of  the scapegoat into the wilderness to die.  Some has thought that SDAs teach that Satan (scape goat) is the sin bearer (saviour) of the righteous.   

In fact, Jesus Christ is the only sin-bearer (Saviour) of the righteous.

I will suggest that the Scape goat teaches us two  things:

1)   Satan has ultimately decided to go it alone, and to depart form God.  That results in eternal death.  The end of Satan is assured.

2)   Satan is the ultimate deceiver, the one who has deceived all.  That does not make Satan the sin-bearer (Saviour).  It does not relieve those who are lost from responsibility and of the choice that they freely made.  Rather, it is a statement that Satan has no one to blame other than himself.

 

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

My question is simple: "since when Does Jesus require religious riddles and the help of Satan to get rid of sin? I thought thats what He died for?

"Behold, THE Lamb of God WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD." (John 1:29)

Why on earth would Jesus labor away for us for centuries only to officially end sin by giving it to some goat/satan? I think the OT message of the sanctuary is being severely stretched here. 

Many folks don't want to get into the symbolism of the Tabernacle service.  They want to keep salvation simple.  Believe in Jesus as God's Son who died for us.  Serve Him.  That's it.  And I agree - folks don't have to go any further.   It's not a salvational issue - to be able to explain the Tabernacle prophecies, or the process by which Jesus will cleanse the world of sin. 

But others find great support for their faith in the prophecies. 

The Sanctuary services were acted prophecy.

I believe the Sanctuary services are symbolizing the process by which Christ will completely cleanse the earth - and the universe - of the sin problem.   In this process, there are several steps.   

The Passover Lamb symbolized Jesus Christ - who was literally offered on Passover - fulfilling that prophecy.

The Son of God became a human being, lived a perfectly obedient life  - up to and including death by public torture, while at the same time being tormented by Satan in mind.

His perfect sacrifice, and presentation of the firstfruits of His sacrifice, was acknowledged in Heaven, while on earth the Feast of Firstfruits ceremony was carried out.

His perfect life and death won Him the right to save those humans who would serve Him, and to destroy those humans who refused, and to create "new heavens and the new earth" after the worn out one is consumed.  

On Pentecost Christ poured out His Spirit upon His waiting disciples.  He baptized them - empowering them to win others for His kingdom.

The Fall feasts symbolize the works of Christ down at the END of this age.   A final warning - Blowing of Trumpets,  judgment - Day of Atonement,  celebration of the harvest - Feast of Tabernacles. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

There is more than one way of understanding "the atonement" - what Jesus did by incarnating and then dying on that cross.

Some want to believe in simply a substitutionary death - that Jesus literally was executed in our place - so God won't execute us.  I'm not at all comfortable with that view.  It's as if God is saying, "My law demands death, so someone must DIE for this transgression."   What good does it do, to kill the innocent?  No human court anywhere, would work like that. 

If that is so - that He died for "the sin of the world", then no human should ever be executed.  Jesus was already executed FOR them.  They all (in effect) legally died when He died.  We know that can't be true, because the Bible says most of humanity will be judged and die the second death. 

Then there's the dominion understanding - that Jesus won back the dominion of earth (from Satan) by His perfect obedience unto death.   He can then deliver those human beings who believe in Him, and execute those who refuse Him.  In this view, Jesus died FOR us in the sense that His death won Him the right to deliver us (those who believe in Him), to heal us, to give us eternal life.

There is also the understanding that God's gift of His Son, and Jesus voluntary surrender,  were a message to humanity - "This is how much We love you!  Yes, you were created, and We could easily throw away your rebellious race and create a new race.   But we won't do that, because We love you so much, we would do anything to bring you back to us.  The Hebrew word translated as "atonement", is also translated as "reconciliation".  We are reconciled to God by the death of His Son.  God is not reconciled to us.  We (or at least some of us) are reconciled to God.  It is the revelation of His love for us, that brings us to this reconciliation. 

It is our "old man" - our old rebellious/resentful self, that "dies" when we are reconciled to HIM.   The resentment/rebellion melts away when we come to realize how much HE loves us. 

One does not have to grasp every level of meaning, in order to be "saved" into Christ's kingdom.  But I personally find my faith grows as I come to understand the atonement in more ways.  Just as my faith is strengthened as I see the Bible's coordinated revelation, the same story told from many, many different angles. 

Everyone is different.  Some are content with a "simple faith".  Some crave more, and need more.  Praise the LORD, He has supplied enough "food" for us all. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

19 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Including the sin of thinking some stupid goat is responsible in any way for our salvation?

When one person incites another to commit a crime, the instigator can also be charged and convicted (at least under USA law).   When one person deceives another into committing a crime, the deceiver can be charged and convicted.  When one person pays another to murder, the one who pays for the murder can be tried and convicted.  The one who carried out the crime, does not get off free.  No.  He is charged and convicted of his crime.  It's just that the instigator is guilty - often more guilty - than the perpetrator, and the courts recognize this.  

I see the sins (in symbol) put onto the head of the Scapegoat (Satan) by the High Priest (Christ) as Satan being charged and convicted of the sins he has incited, and caused by deception.

Satan is NOT "responsible for our salvation".  No way!!!   He is responsible for introducing distrust, and sin and rebellion into this earth, and the hearts of men. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

See the quote below:

One might also say:  At his death, Christ effected that salvation of every human.  However, that did not negate the freedom that each has to chose to be lost and by that choice, when they are given their choice to separate from God, to cease to exist.

 

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Posted 24 minutes ago

There is more than one way of understanding "the atonement" - what Jesus did by incarnating and then dying on that cross.

Some want to believe in simply a substitutionary death - that Jesus literally was executed in our place - so God won't execute us.  I'm not at all comfortable with that view.  It's as if God is saying, "My law demands death, so someone must DIE for this transgression."   What good does it do, to kill the innocent?  No human court anywhere, would work like that. 

If that is so - that He died for "the sin of the world", then no human should ever be executed.  Jesus was already executed FOR them.  They all (in effect) legally died when He died.  We know that can't be true, because the Bible says most of humanity will be judged and die the second death.

[B/W Photodude]

Before the scape goat even came into the ceremony of the Day of Atonement, the cleansing of the sanctuary was already completed. The scape goat had nothing to do with the saving act of propitiation by our Savior. Unfortunately, many mess up the understanding of the whole sanctuary service with the common claim that the scape goat could not be Satan because that would mean he had a part in the salvation process. 

What is missing from understanding of the sanctuary process is the concept of shared responsibility. When one induces another to commit sin, they share in that sin. And Satan shared in  responsibility for all of the sin done by all of the saved from throughout the earth's history. And he will suffer for it. The lost must suffer for their own sin and the sin they induced others to commit. Unfortunately for Satan, he also induced even the lost to commit sin and shares in that sin.

So, in the end, Satan will be "brought to ashes" before the universe for the evil he instigated. But that had nothing to do with the salvation of the redeemed, it is just part of the entire sin story.

ML Andreasen covered the concept of shared responsibility for sin in his book "The Sanctuary Service." But he did come up with that concept of "Last Generation Theology" which has some very displeased.

(I sometimes wonder what demons think when they are reading over your shoulder and watching you write how they will be brought to ashes before the universe or when they are listening in on Bible study at church and their end is discussed.)

[phkrause]

2 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

(I sometimes wonder what demons think when they are reading over your shoulder and watching you write how they will be brought to ashes before the universe or when they are listening in on Bible study at church and their end is discussed.)

I also wonder about that all the time!!

[phkrause]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

I dont look for demons under every doily. I find it too distracting.

I don't either Wanderer, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't cross your mind every now and than??

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I dont look for demons under every doily. I find it too distracting.

It is not about looking for demons, it is wondering what they think when reminded about their impending destination. I think that if I was one of them, I would be quite upset. However, it doesn't seem to bother most people as it is also the same end for those who are also lost.

[hch]

The Investigative Judgment is explained through the day of Atonement Service

which is a part of the Sanctuary service

which is linked to the ceremonial calendar.

As we look at the various parts of the whole,

we learn about the sin problem and God's solution.

But are we willing to learn everything that God would have us to know?

Or is there a mindset that somethings are to wonderful for us to study?

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

It is not about looking for demons, it is wondering what they think when reminded about their impending destination. I think that if I was one of them, I would be quite upset. However, it doesn't seem to bother most people as it is also the same end for those who are also lost.

Satan and his bitter host are like angry abusive boyfriends or husbands, who say "If I can't have her, no one will" and they murder her, rather than let someone else "win her".  "Her" would be Israel redeemed - now betrothed to Messiah. 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, hch said:

But are we willing to learn everything that God would have us to know?

Or is there a mindset that somethings are to wonderful for us to study?

Folks are different.  Some are thinkers and diggers, and some like just the basics.   I personally would not disrespect or dismiss those who have embraced the basics, and spend their lives helping others and sharing Christ's love.   "Helps" is one the "gifts", just as much as teaching.  Not everyone has the intellect or the time, to dig and dig and dig and ponder seeking to understand symbols or prophecies.  Some women are raising kids, which draws them to the basics as they seek to help their children.   We wouldn't need a sermon preached for us every Sabbath, if we all had the time to search out the "deep things" for ourselves. 

Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching;"

I have a friend who goes blank eyed when I start talking about Sanctuary symbolism.  But when she's out helping and visiting the old folks, she has energy to spare and just glows.  Why would I scold her as unwilling "to learn everything that God would have us to know" ?  She has a different special "gift", and uses that gift to serve her Savior. 

[8thdaypriest]

OK - so back to "under the Law".

What does the phrase mean?   Jesus was "born under the Law", so it cannot mean "under the curse of the Law".  Jesus was not born "under the curse".  Was He?   Maybe He was?   But I would not think He was "under the curse" (which means "devoted to destruction") when He had not sinned. 

If the Law is still in effect, but those in Christ Jesus are "not under the Law", WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?  I have never yet heard a short explanation that made sense - to me. 

This is important - for our understanding of the judgment concerning mankind.  

We know the Law will be the standard by which all are judged.  (Or will it be the standard by which only those not protected by the blood of Christ will be judged?) .   The redeemed will only be judged concerning whether they are "in Christ". 

[JoeMo]

On 6/5/2018 at 7:06 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Satan (scape goat)

I thought the scapegoat was named Azazel.  Several translations of Leviticus 16:8 use the name "Azazel" rather than "scapegoat".  Azazel is the name of one of the fallen angels given in the Book of Enoch.  Azazel was not Satan. According to many Christian denominations, Judaism, and Islam, and Apocrypha, Azazel was one of the fallen angels allied with satan to facilitate the fall of man.

[JoeMo]

50 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

(Or will it be the standard by which only those not protected by the blood of Christ will be judged?) . 

I believe this option.

 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I thought the scapegoat was named Azazel.  Several translations of Leviticus 16:8 use the name "Azazel" rather than "scapegoat".  Azazel is the name of one of the fallen angels given in the Book of Enoch.  Azazel was not Satan. According to many Christian denominations, Judaism, and Islam, and Apocrypha, Azazel was one of the fallen angels allied with satan to facilitate the fall of man.

Yes - mentioned in the Apocryphal First Book of Enoch, which I do not accept as God's revelation.  

Besides, Satan was the LEADER of the fallen angels - whatever their names.   

The Son of God is called by several different names in the OT.  Satan also is called by several names.  I believe that "Azazel" is one of Satan's names.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If the Law is still in effect, but those in Christ Jesus are "not under the Law", WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?  I have never yet heard a short explanation that made sense - to me. 

How about this one:  Jesus was "working without a net" under the Law of Gravity. 

[B/W Photodude]

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Satan and his bitter host are like angry abusive boyfriends or husbands, who say "If I can't have her, no one will" and they murder her, rather than let someone else "win her".  "Her" would be Israel redeemed - now betrothed to Messiah. 

Yeah, you should know that I do not appreciate that characterization of Satan & Co as abusive boyfriends/husbands. Stereotypical radical feminists type stuff. You think there has never been abusive angry girlfriends/wives?

[B/W Photodude]

52 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

It might not be the most appropriate analogy...but "radical femnist?"  Not so sure about that one. I dont think it was 8th days intent to reflect that and it is a good analogy.

Not to seriously hijack this thread, but read up on the Duluth model of domestic violence.

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Yeah, you should know that I do not appreciate that characterization of Satan & Co as abusive boyfriends/husbands. Stereotypical radical feminists type stuff. You think there has never been abusive angry girlfriends/wives?

Satan is LIKE many different evil type persons, and his plans and actions LIKE many of those carried out by evil powerful characters.  Hitler is a good TYPE, and Pharaoh.  Excuse me for speaking from a woman's perspective.  Guess I've just seen more abuse of women by men.  Men are the more physically powerful sex.  They were created to protect, but sin turned many (not all -of course) into subjugators.   

Feels like I've been stereotyped.  

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Yeah, you should know that I do not appreciate that characterization of Satan & Co as abusive boyfriends/husbands. Stereotypical radical feminists type stuff. You think there has never been abusive angry girlfriends/wives? 

I did not say that every boyfriend or husband is abusive.   I compared the ones who ARE abusive, to Satan and what he is seeking to do - take as many human beings away from Jesus before he comes to his end. 

[B/W Photodude]

8 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Guess I've just seen more abuse of women by men.  Men are the more physically powerful sex.  They were created to protect, but sin turned many (not all -of course) into subjugators.

Guess I have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time as I have seen a number of men abused by women. It is even applauded on TV (known as "cute violence"). And mothers kill about two thirds of all children murdered by a parent, so sometimes they are the more powerful also. So, sin messed with them also. 

[8thdaypriest]

So - back to "UNDER THE LAW" and the judgment.  

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (NKJ)

The Law speaks to those who are "under" it.  Jesus was "born under the law".  That would mean the Law spoke to Jesus also. 

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law (NKJ).  Galatians 4:5 "to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons." (NKJ)

This verse is confusing - to me.  If "sons" are not "under the law", then how is that God's own Son was "born under the law" - unless that is a position he assumed, in order to redeem.

 

[8thdaypriest]

9 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Guess I have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time as I have seen a number of men abused by women. It is even applauded on TV (known as "cute violence"). And mothers kill about two thirds of all children murdered by a parent, so sometimes they are the more powerful also. So, sin messed with them also. 

I can agree.  Thanks. 

[8thdaypriest]

There are many different aspects of "the judgment":  

The timing of the judgment,   the standard in the judgment,   the subjects of the judgment,  the different phases of the judgment (pre-SC, at the SC, millennial,  post millennial),  the Judge at each phase of judgment,  the introduction and development of the pre-Advent "investigative judgment" doctrine within SD Adventism,  . . . . .  

Do we need a separate thread for each aspect of "the judgment", or can we just discuss the many aspects in this thread?