The Investigative Judgment

[8thdaypriest]

NIV  Romans 3:25 "God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, [a place or means of reconciliation] through the shedding of his blood-- to be received by faith.

He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (NIV)

Leaving sins unpunished would say that God is unjust.  This is Satan's argument, when he accuses the brethren.  If I must die, then they must die also.

If God punished every sin as soon as committed, then mankind would have ceased to exist the day that Adam ate the fruit.  Human kind ARE punished.  They die slowly, and usually painfully.  Adam did hear that sentence pronounced.   But humans are not punished by God - in the sense of an execution.  (Excepting a few: Nadab and Abihu, Sodom and G, 250 princes, Korah).

Humankind were DECEIVED by Satan the great manipulator.  Those deceived should not receive the same punishment as the deceiver.  That would be unjust.

Is it not Satan and his angels who were left unpunished?  Satan continued to exist, to spread lies and rebellion and its consequence through earth.  Yes - he was cast out from Heaven, from the presence of the LORD, but he was not executed.  The question is WHY.  WHY was Satan's continued existence allowed?  There must have been something essential to Satan's continued existence.  Questions that could not be answered in the minds of created beings, without that continued existence.

1.  The cross demonstrated to the entire universe of sentient beings, the outworking of Satan's way.  Satan murdered his Creator.

2.  The cross demonstrated God's love for created beings.  He would actually become one of them, and die to reconcile them - to Himself.   The cross demonstrated God's character in contrast to Satan's.

All created sentient beings must CHOOSE between Satan's way (selfishness leading to murder) and God's way (love and life).

God allowed TIME for the existence of more human beings (enough to populate a kingdom), TIME for the perfect demonstration of His way vs Satan's way, and TIME for them to CHOOSE.

[8thdaypriest]

Without the cross, we would not know the depth of God's love for His creation, and we would not understand how strong was Satan's stranglehold over that creation - that it took the death of God's own Son to break it.  

We should not reduce the judgment to a picture of God picking and choosing which humans are "good enough" or believe enough, to be given a place in His kingdom.   

[hch]

18 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Without the cross, we would not know the depth of God's love for His creation, and we would not understand how strong was Satan's stranglehold over that creation - that it took the death of God's own Son to break it.  

The cross is essential to our Salvation. As is the blood applied to us as taught in the Sanctuary Service. 

At the end of the yearly services, the blood cleansed us of the record of those sins that so easily beset us.

[hch]

Is the Investigative Judgment to be doomed: by talking about it, around it, and about everything else that it is to grasp our attention?

And so dies the IJ,?

Not because it was killed by a moderator that quashed the study, or moved it to the dark web, but that a flood of side topics diverted our attention from a subject that is of our eternal interest?

RIP IJ!

while we waste our last precious minutes of probation in seeing sights that please our itchy eyes???

When Jesus states it is done and leaves the Holy of Holies,

repentance will be useless because there will be no one to intercede for us when the wrath of God is poured out without mercy! 

But while Jesus is pleading in our behalf, we should be sure that our sins are confessed, forgiven, and our names are in the Lamb' Book of Life!

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH, you may decry the direction of the comments posted as to the Investigative Judgment.  But, it is that same freedom that has given you some (even if not all that you want) freedom to post here.

 

[hch]

6 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

So how do we expect Gods people to survive all this if they are "without protection" as in "intercession?"  That has never made sense to me. 

 

When Christ leaves the Sanctuary, His people are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Those that are sealed are preserved until the Holy Spirit delivers them to Christ at His Coming (they no longer need an Intercessor).

Our salvation is in God's hands whether it is:

1) to draw us to repent

2) to pardon us from our sins

3)or to preserve us in our sealed condition.

[hch]

8 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Moderators have done nothing wrong here. The subject is still open for discussion.

You must have read something into my post about moderators  that I did not say.

Surely if a moderator wanted to kill this thread, it would be dead long before this.

But if it is allowed to live only to die by apathy, what a shame that would be.

Quote

Do you know why this "investigative judgment" is so important to us that it is "of our eternal interest?"  What scripture would you use to explain your answer?

 

Quote

 Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, saying3  What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,  And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people: (Leviticus 17:2-4) 

This is speaking about sacrificing an animal to atone for sin without bringing it to the Sanctuary. Circumventing the priest, the temple, and the plan of salvation as it has been given to Moses.

If you search the Scriptures, you will also see that on the Day of Atonement, the Israelites were commanded that if they had not humble themselves before God, they would be cut off from God's people. Our eternal interest is to be among the redeemed and not to be cut off.

Did that answer your question?

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Each person is compelled to refuse or to recognize Him, and thereby determines beforehand the verdict at the last Judgment on himself.

What about those people who never even get a chance to hear about Jesus, much less make an intelligent informed choice?  All people are born with a spiritual nature; but not all are led to Christ as their Savior.

[JoeMo]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

Is this our job to figure such things out and advise God on how He must have to do it?

No; but I believe it is a concern that other sentient beings could raise in judging the fairness of God.  I'm sure He has ALL the answers.

[hch]

32 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

What about those people who never even get a chance to hear about Jesus, much less make an intelligent informed choice?  All people are born with a spiritual nature; but not all are led to Christ as their Savior.

Isn't that where we come in?

To take the gospel to the world so that they will hear about Jesus, salvation, and the love of God?

[hch]

21 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

No; but I believe it is a concern that other sentient beings could raise in judging the fairness of God.  I'm sure He has ALL the answers.

So if we don't take the gospel to others and they fail to go to Heaven, is the  judgment against them or us for the sin of omission?

I have read that some suffer horribly for the sins of others,

so will we get off scot free if we fail to do what God expects us to do?

[hch]

Of course we cannot undo yesterday.

But our actions today and tomorrow can reflect our changed nature and 

our determination to let Jesus live in us and 

work for the salvation of others as He would do.

Here is some food for thought: https://www.amazon.com/Highest-Loyalty-Truth-Larceny-Dawning-ebook/dp/B07C7DRPVS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1524479061&sr=8-3&keywords=the+highest+loyalty

[hch]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

As JoeMo pointed out, that has its limits.

Limits?

My favorite author wrote something to the effect that Adventist lay people are not doing 1/50th of what they could be doing to finish the work.

Who (or what) is setting the limits?  God? Satan? US? Our short sighted vision?

What should we fear most in the Investigative Judgment...our sins of commission or omission? 

Food for thought :

 https://www.amazon.com/Highest-Loyalty-Truth-Larceny-Dawning-ebook/dp/B07C7DRPVS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1524479061&sr=8-3&keywords=the+highest+loyalty

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, hch said:

Isn't that where we come in?

To take the gospel to the world so that they will hear about Jesus, salvation, and the love of God?

 

2 hours ago, hch said:

So if we don't take the gospel to others and they fail to go to Heaven, is the  judgment against them or us for the sin of omission?

 

That might be easy to say, but there are places in the world where even missionaries dare not go; or that leave due to the intense persecution.  Plus, this does no good for the billions who have already perished without knowledge of the true God.

We don't have all the answers on how individuals will be judged, except that God will be looking at hearts rather than the outer man concerning who will or will not be saved.

[hch]

2 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

 

That might be easy to say, but there are places in the world where even missionaries dare not go; or that leave due to the intense persecution.  Plus, this does no good for the billions who have already perished without knowledge of the true God.

We don't have all the answers on how individuals will be judged, except that God will be looking at hearts rather than the outer man concerning who will or will not be saved.

ok so we don't have all the answers.

Should  that make us any more self confident if we neglect the answers that we do have?

[JoeMo]

If we are doing as the Lord leads, we believers will not be able to help sharing our faith.  We may not be sharing Adventism; but we can (and do) definitely share Jesus wherever we are.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, hch said:

Should  that make us any more self confident if we neglect the answers that we do have?

We should never have self confidence in our ability to bring others to Christ.  Anything we do to bring others to Christ is Christ working through us.

I once heard a preacher say "Don't do something, just stand there!" His implication was that we should ask God to do what He is blessing rather than to bless what we are doing.  If we are listening to the Spirit, God will bring us the opportunities to act as channels for Him to do His work of salvation.

[hch]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Sorry. Im not interested in buying your books. I thought this was a discussion...not a market place. You need to actually read the post JoeMo made to understand the correct context of my post

The good news is that you don't have to buy anything.

You can read the book for free if you have Amazon Prime. You can read a good chunk if you don't have prime. And you can borrow it from a friend that has prime.

But since it is a commentary on all 12 chapters of Daniel,  and a large portion of Revelation and it deals extensively with the Investigative Judgment, it will bless those who choose to be blessed.

I have read all the posts on this thread thus far. And some twice.

We don't always come to the same reading, but I hold JoeMo in high esteem because he thinks.

[hch]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 10:35 PM, Gustave said:

Is this Doctrine promulgated today with the same velocity it was, say, 50 to 100 years ago? 

I admittedly know little of this aspect of SDA history but have wondered if Investigation Judgement is now following the same trajectory the Personality of God took, i.e. moving from a prominent position to literally a forgotten one. 

 

Gustave,

you made an astute observation here.

Any ideas why the Investigative Judgment is "moving from a prominent position to literally a forgotten one"?

Do you suppose that this could be the result of Seventh-day Adventists wanting to be a more mainstream Christian religion?  
Do Other Christian religions give much thought to the Investigative Judgment?

[hch]

Adventists are people with flaws like everyone else. And we are in need of a correct understanding of the IJ.

It is important to recognize our sins, confess them, make restitution, and to turn from them so that when the IJ is ended; we have a clean slate.

Without naming names (because we all have our inconsistencies) allow me to give this example:

Brother #A finds a book and shares his find.

Quote

A new 330 page book has been published on the Investigative Judgment.  see: [link given]

 

Brother #B appreciates the news.

Quote

do you perchance know how one could get a copy of this latest volume?

Brother #A repeats the info

Quote

To order the book [link given]

 

Brother #B repeats the link stating

Quote

Thank you! I just bought it for my Kindle...

 

Later in the conversation Brother #C shares a link to his book on the IJ and adds his link to his signature line
Brother #B responds to Brother #C's link

Quote

Sorry. I'm not interested in buying your books. I thought this was a discussion...not a market place.

 

In the Investigative Judgment, will an exchange of this nature be considered?

What will be the focus? tone? manifestation of loving attitude? self promotion? intent? working of Christian Brothers at cross purposes?

Is the Investigative Judgment just for determining who's wrong OR to facilitate reconciliation?

For Christ to come to take HIS people home THEY MUST BE ready to associate with angels,

we need to be in one Accord (if it were a honda, it would be close quarters)

Since character development is essential for translation to Heaven, MAYBE character development IS THE FOCUS OF THE IJ?

Again this example is not intended to embarrass anyone, but to bring the IJ home in a perspective that relates to me

(and anyone else that can see it in a personal perspective) because we all face the same Judge

And God is a reader of our intents and the only One who can mold us in Christ's character

[Gregory Matthews]

To be clear, I am the Brother A, mentioned by HCH.  At least, I was called a Brother.  Now for some other aspects of this forum:

*  In general, it is against the policy of this forum for people to use it to solicit funds, to include selling stuff.

*  When the policies of this forum are violated, action may be taken.  That has included:  private conversations with the person involved, removing the post from public view,  limiting the posting ability of the person involved and in rare cases, not allowing the person to post at all.

*  Decisions are made on an individual basis which may mean that people are treated differently, in part because violations and attitudes by the person involved may differ.

*  Moderators and Administrators do, at times recommend the purchase of a book for which they do not have any financial interest and for which they think that there may be general interest by the members of this forum.

*  An Administrator of this forum has the right to post anything, regardless of whether or not someone else would be allowed to post it.  Every rule, probably has a valid exception and an Administrator may do such.

*  On rare occasions, usually after a conversation with an Administrator, I also have done such.

It should be noted that no person is above and beyond,  On very rare occasions I have had an Administrator contact me as to why I either posted something or as to why I took some action.  When I think that there is a possibility that an action that I have taken might be questioned, I post my rational (or some other statement) for doing so in a place in this forum, where the general public can not read.  I am doing this  for an action that I took earlier today.

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 6/12/2018 at 11:01 AM, hch said:

The cross is essential to our Salvation. As is the blood applied to us as taught in the Sanctuary Service. 

WHEN was "the blood" ever applied TO the sinner - in the ancient Tabernacle rituals?  

I remember "the blood" was sprinkled before the veil,  and sprinkled before the ARK, on the Day of Atonement.  It was either sprinkled on the Alter or poured out at the base of the Alter in the Courtyard.  It was pointed on the lintel and side-posts of the doors on Passover. 

There are two times, that I can think of, when the blood of a sacrificed animal was actually put ON a human.  The first was when Moses was told to put some of the blood on the tip of Aaron's right ear, and thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot, during his anointing for the priesthood  (Leviticus 8:23).  Second:  The same anointing was to be performed on a healed leper (Leviticus 14:14).  

I personally believe that WE are in a sense "lepers" and "unclean" - but we will "become priests of God and of Christ".   So yes - believe that blood anointing IS for us.    

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel said:  People who physically die, are NOT yet "dead" - to God, because He can resurrect them to continued life. 

On 6/11/2018 at 2:34 PM, The Wanderer said:

This makes no sense. A resurrection is just that - from the dead.

Jesus said:   John 11:26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die"  (NKJ).  Obviously millions who have believed in Jesus, have physically died.   Jesus was speaking of the "second death" - the eternal death from which there is no resurrection.  Jesus called the first death - "sleep".   Millions of believers are sleeping in the dust.  They are not "dead" to God, because He can wake them. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 6/15/2018 at 8:15 AM, hch said:

Is the Investigative Judgment to be doomed: by talking about it, around it, and about everything else that it is to grasp our attention?

And so dies the IJ,?

Not because it was killed by a moderator that quashed the study, or moved it to the dark web, but that a flood of side topics diverted our attention from a subject that is of our eternal interest?

RIP IJ!

while we waste our last precious minutes of probation in seeing sights that please our itchy eyes???

When Jesus states it is done and leaves the Holy of Holies,

repentance will be useless because there will be no one to intercede for us when the wrath of God is poured out without mercy! 

But while Jesus is pleading in our behalf, we should be sure that our sins are confessed, forgiven, and our names are in the Lamb' Book of Life!

I agree with the lines in bold.  Jesus IS "pleading in our behalf".  He is NOT pleading with His Father.  He is pleading WITH us.   We are the ones who need to change.  God does not change. 

And yes - we should confess our sins and receive forgiveness BEFORE Jesus ENTERS the Most Holy Place for the final Day of Atonement.  Once the High Priest ENTERED the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement - no more sins could be forgiven.   The LORD would "cut off" every one who did not prepare for that DAY, and maintain a humble attitude ON that DAY. 

What is it, hch, that you want to discuss?  Time periods? 

[JoeMo]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Where does The Bible say that Jesus, in this verse, was speaking only of the "second death?"

Nowhere in that specific verse, but it is straightforward to conclude from the context of other scriptures that Jesus was speaking of the second death.  He obviously resurrected people who had suffered the first death.  At His resurrection, many other graves were opened and saints resurrected from the grave.