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The Godhead Symposium


Gregory Matthews

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The Godhead Symposium is a series of presentations held by some of the finest scholars in Adventism regarding the supporting evidence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. The Central California Conference of Seventh-day Adventists sponsored symposium was held in Dinuba, California on March 23 and 24, 2018 and featured Dr. Richard Davidson, Dr. Richard Choi, Dr. Frank Hasel, and Dr. Denis Kaiser.
 

You can view or download the presentations below.

 

Topics Include:

Dr. Richard Davidson – "The God We Worship According to the Old Testament"
Dr. Richard Choi - "The Trinity in the New Testament"
Dr. Frank Hasel - “The Amazing Work of the Holy Spirit”
Dr. Frank Hasel - “The Personal Nature of the Holy Spirit”
Dr. Denis Kaiser - “From Antitrinitarianism to Trinitarianism: The Adventist Story”
Q & A with all Speakers

 

 

https://www.centralcaliforniaadventist.com/godhead

To access the topics listed above, to view the presentations, to download them, you must go to the link that I have provided above and click on additional links on the website.

The above material has been copied from the website of  the Central California Conference of SDAs--GM.

 

Gregory

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The above links consist of six (6) video presentation, of about 1 1/2 hours each.  The material is in-depth.  But, for those of you interested in this subject, you just may find it of value.

Remember, you heard about it here in this forum.  

We, in  this forum address cutting edge  issues in Adventism.

 

Gregory

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Greetings Greg,

On 6/17/2018 at 10:01 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

The material is in-depth.  But, for those of you interested in this subject, you just may find it of value.

I listened to the first 34 minutes of the talk by Dr. Richard Davidson – "The God We Worship According to the Old Testament". He used the usual arguments regarding some of the OT passages in support of the Trinity, but in my opinion missed the OT teaching concerning the God of the OT. I took a list of the passages that he quoted, including Exodus 3:14 and Genesis 1:26-27 and on these I specifically disagree with his views.

Kind regards Trevor

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  • 3 weeks later...

I watched the 1st video by Dr. Richard Davidson, twice. I found it an excellent example of duplicity - Richardson claims that the Trinity is Biblical but then pours an alien interpretation into it that isn't reconcilable with the Doctrine of the Trinity. The last 15 or so minutes is an apologetic exercise for Ellen White.  It's unfortunate because the majority of what Davidson was saying sounded spot on accurate however he had to get those SDA specific teachings in there.

Davidson goes on record in saying he DOES NOT BELIEVE or TEACH the Catholic Doctrine of the Trinity and goes on to explain what he believes the Trinity Doctrine to be.  

  • Says Christ started "stepping down when he started being called Michael" [ as in Michael the archangel ].
  • Davidson then says archangel doesn't mean chief of the angels BUT Chief angel.

Imagine a group of people sitting in class and the teacher asking a student (who's name is Michael) what the name Michael means - the student named Michael says it means HE (the student) IS LIKE GOD! This ISN'T the meaning of the name! Its a rhetorical question the answer of which is NOTHING is like God. 

Μιχαήλ, (מִיכָאֵל, i. e. 'who like God?'

If Strong's isn't believable then there is:

https://www.behindthename.com/name/michael

www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Michael

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael

http://www.meaning-of-names.com/hebrew-names/michael.asp

https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=michael

Toward the end of his pitch he get's a grin on his face and supposes that before the creation event that there was this "council" among the members of the Godhead where they start wondering how they are going to communicate their truth to humanity and at this "council" they conclude the best way to do this is to "DIVIDE UP THE RESPONSIBILITIES" sort of like the three members of the Trinity drew straws on who was gonna play what role! WOW! This idea is "old hat" in Adventist circles.

"A plan of salvation was encompassed in the covenant made by the Three Persons of the Godhead, who possessed the attributes of Deity equally. In order to eradicate sin and rebellion from the universe and to restore harmony and peace, one of the divine Beings accepted, and entered into, the role of the Father, another the role of the Son. The remaining divine Being, the Holy Spirit, was also to participate in effecting the plan of salvation. All of this took place before sin and rebellion transpired in heaven. By accepting the roles that the plan entailed, the divine Beings lost none of the powers of Deity. With regard to their eternal existence and other attributes, they were one and equal. But with regard to the plan of salvation, there was, in a sense, a submission on the part of the Son to the Father.”­– Gordon Jensen: Adventist Review, October 31, 1996, p.12

I'm almost afraid to watch the other video presenters - I thought that the It Is Written Sean Boonstra program on the Substance of God was much better as he basically just stuck to the Bible and conceded that the Catholic Church was RIGHT about the Trinity Doctrine.  

The anti-Trinitarians within the SDA Church will watch Davidson's presentation and be embolden to attack the Trinity Doctrine even harder I think. 

 

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I just thought of something - is it possible that the SDA Church is "educating" its members pertaining to the Trinity by "gradations" ? This would accomplish a gradual movement to orthodoxy and would prevent the cold water shock of a theological announcement from the leadership of the SDA Church. Doing it by gradations would provide the Ellen White adherents with enough statements to keep them happy while at the same time also providing enough statements to people within the Church who subscribe to the historic Doctrine of the Trinity - it would appear from Boonstra's It Is Written program that at least some elements of the SDA Church believe in the Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity. The issue will be what to do with several teachings of Ellen White that are incompatible with the doctrine of the Trinity. 

What I'm saying is that perhaps there is a method to the symposium. 

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Well I don't believe in the trinity and I do not believe in a one god or a godhead because that is not the meaning of the actual word. The Greek word is ‘theiotēs,’ which means divinity and not godhead.

Note that some Adventist Trinitarians try and defend their belief by attempting to discredit the above facts. They do this by saying, “non-Trinitarians use the reasoning that the trinity doctrine comes from Catholic theology and therefore must be false.” But saying that it is Catholic and “therefore” must be false is not what is claimed. The facts are that the trinity doctrine is Catholic and it is “also” a false doctrine. The three in one god idea came from Athanasius whose teacher was Origen who “believed in the doctrine of Purgatory, transubstantiation, transmigration of the soul and reincarnation of the soul. The Scriptures were not literal.” — (See Dr. Ken Matto, Origen's Gnostic Belief System). I trust that no one will claim that just because these things are Catholic that it does not mean they are not false! They are Catholic and they are just as false as the trinity doctrine that came from the same source. The continued response to hide the facts is to claim the Catholic doctrine of the trinity has differences from the Seventh day Adventist doctrine, which is not true. On some points the Adventist Church does differ from orthodoxy, but regarding the basic premise and pagan part of this doctrine, meaning that the one God is three persons in one and that the Holy Spirit is another literal being, it is exactly the same and they fail to mention this significant fact. The image above shows the Shield of the Trinity for the Catholic Church and for the Adventist Church and they are exactly the same in this respect. www.TrinityTruth.org

However, I do not agree with the non-Trinitarian as well. I know that the Bible said THEY are ONE and I agree in Thought, Purpose, and Unity of Working Together. If we are made like THEM with all of our features and the Bible clearly state that both YAHSHUA and THE FATHER have wooly HAIR. We also cannot look on THE FATHER’S FACE with sin or we will die. Then the Bible says THE FATHER IS a SPIRIT so when the Bible state THE SPIRIT of is not in the original Text or Script here is what it should say:

Concerning this deliverance the prophets have sought out and searched out, prophesying concerning the favour for you, searching to know what, or what sort of time, the SPIRIT which was in them was pointing out concerning MESSIAH, when it was bearing witness beforehand the sufferings of MESSIAH, and the esteems that would follow, 1Peter 1:10, 11 

Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards ELOHYM, for it does not subject itself to the Torah of ELOHIYM, neither indeed is it able, and those who are in the flesh are unable to please ELOHIYM. But you are not in the flesh but in the SPIRIT, if indeed the SPIRIT of ELOHYM dwells in you. And if anyone does not have the SPIRIT of MESSIAH, this one is not HIS. And if MESSIAH is in you, the body is truly dead on account of sin, but the SPIRIT is LIFE on account of righteousness. Rom 8:7-10 

The word ‘of,” should not be there it say SPIRIT ELOHIYM and THE SPIRIT MESSIAH. THE MESSIAH is also A SPIRIT, HE is not flesh. Flesh cannot enter the Kingdom, but He has the form and scar of the human body, that will be with HIM always! Satan has got us so confuse with THE HOLY SPIRIT and to me that is sad. YAHSHUA said this about THE HOLY SPIRIT:

Howbeit when he, THE SPIRIT of TRUTH, is come, HE Will guide you into all truth: for HE shall not speak of HIMSELF; but whatsoever HE shall hear, that shall HE Speak: and HE Will shew you things to come. John 16:13 

Then how on earth can THE HOLY SPIRIT not be an ELOHIYM; HE IS ONE but THEY are not a trinity! Here is proof:

And THE FATHER HIMSELF, which hath sent ME, hath borne witness of ME. Ye have neither heard HIS VOICE at any time, nor seen HIS SHAPE. John 5:37 

But, YAHSHUA have been seen:

And YAHWEH visually appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he was sitting at the door of the tent in the heat of the day. Gen 18:1 HRB

Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:  And they saw ELOHIYM of Israel: and there was under HIS FEET as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of Heaven in HIS clearness. And HE did not stretch out HIS HANDS to the nobles of the sons of Israel. And they saw ELOHIYM, and they ate and drank. Ex 24:9-11

And having turned, I saw seven golden menorahs, and in the midst of the seven menorahs ONE LIKE THE SON of Man, wearing a garment down to the FEET, and having HIS BREAST girded with a golden girdle .And THE HAIRS of HIS HEAD were WHITE as white wool, as snow, and His eyes as a flame of fire; and HIS FEET like burnished brass having been fired in a furnace; and HIS VOICE as a sound of many waters; Rev 1:16 and having in HIS RIGHT HAND seven stars; and a sharp, two-edged sword proceeding out of HIS MOUTH, and HIS FACE Shining as the sun in all its power. Rev 1:13-16

All the above Scriptures prove that THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT have separate BODIES that we were created to look like and had THEIR CHARACTER at one time. We fail short from a seven of perfection to a six and we are out of order. The difference between our body and THEIR BODIES, THEY are SPIRITUAL BEINGS. They are not a person we are which is flesh and this is what we try to do:

For the wrath of ELOHIYM is revealed from Heaven against all wickedness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known of ELOHIYM is manifest among them, for ELOHIYM has manifested it to them. For since the creation of the world HIS INVISIBLE QUALITIES have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, both HIS EVERLASTING POWERS and MIGHTINESS, for them to be without excuse,  because, although they knew ELOHIYM, they did not esteem HIM as ELOHIYM, nor gave thanks, but became vain in their reasoning’s, and their undiscerning heart was darkened.  Claiming to be wise, they became fools,   and changed the esteem of the incorruptible ELOHIYM into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds and of four-footed beasts and of reptiles. Therefore ELOHIYM gave them up to uncleanness in the lust of their hearts, to disrespect their bodies among themselves,  who changed the truth of ELOHIYM into the falsehood, and worshipped and served what was created rather than the CREATOR, who is blessed forever. Aměn. Rom 1:18-25

 This is serious; from Nimrod up to today we have tried to bring ELOHIYM down to our level instead of rising to the Level of THE MOST HIGH! How dare we and insult to injury we have change HIS NAME, HIS TITLE to Satan. God comes from Zeus and traces always back to demon and the one of light like the sun! Etymology Online Dictionary the word god! We claim to accept EGW and she clearly was shown that words were changed in the Bible. EW p. 220, 221 We all know when the letter J was created in the Middle Ages and YAHSHUA is not named after Joshua! The ancient Israelites would name their children after THE MOST HIGH!

I am not asking anyone to believe me, I am a presenter, go study what I have given and prove it to see if it is so. If you don’t want to accept it that alright. I am a human being but have been call to be a repairer of the breach. I cannot save anyone and not even myself. We all must choose and I have presented the evidence of fact, now see if it is so! Look at this picture and see if you can tell the difference between the Catholic trinity and the SDA’s!

Blessings!

Trinity both Catholic and SDA.jpg

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Stinsonmarri, you essentially are saying that Ellen White dictates or defines your understanding of divinity, at least you're honest and upfront about that.

At the end of day however you or no other arian leaning individual has been able to answer the mutation capable Christ question - You know from reading the Bible that this SDA Vital teaching is against the Scriptures more than any other thing folks do and say about the Bible. How can you do this with a straight face? 

 

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I just finished watching the final video of the Symposium - the Questions & Answers.

The panel clearly side steps the elephant in the room by not dealing with the primary issue the anti-Trinitarians would say proves their position. I'll play Devil's advocate here and summarize what the SDA anti-Trinitarians would say. 

Example: Hypothetical Situation

Let's say that God ( who is understood by Historic Adventists to be the Father ONLY ) was taking a tour of the universe and happened to be in proximity of a star that went super-nova, & God was annihilated & became as if He never existed. You can come up with any hypothetical situation where God made a mistake or got involved in some sort of cosmic accident and was destroyed but in each case the hypothetical would be rejected by the anti-Trinitarians BECAUSE they would say God can't be destroyed by ANYTHING be it a cosmic accident OR the almighty making a mistake which wouldn't be possible.

A Trinitarian would apply the same reasoning if the above hypothetical situations were put to Christ ( God the Son ) or God the Holy Spirit. A Trinitarian would say that what makes Jesus God is the identical thing that makes the Father God and the Holy Spirit God, call it the Divine Nature, Substance or whatever you want to call it - its ONE SUBSTANCE that Father, Son & Holy Spirit co-equally possess. Therefore because Scripture teaches that God became Man WITHOUT ceasing to be God it would be impossible for Christ to fail ( sin and loose His salvation ) because salvation was a work of God that was planned and executed by God. In addition to this logic chain are clear Scriptures that make the matter plain.

Matthew 1,21:  And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. FOR HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS. .Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

Isaiah 35,4: God himself will come AND will save you.

And approximately 100 other equally explicit texts which all say the same thing.

The Adventist Trinity stands in stark contrast to that & according to the Symposium / Q & A section the panel claim that Christ EARNED his right to be included in the Trinity by NOT FAILING prior to being executed on the cross. Yes, you heard that right. Just fast forward to the question about the differences between the SDA & Catholic Trinity and you can hear it for yourself. 

AT LEAST one of the Doctors on the Panel admitted that the Pioneers and Ellen White rejected the various creeds used by all the Trinitarian Christians because those other denominations rejected that God the Father, Michael & Lucifer the archangels DIDN'T have bodies of flesh, organs, bones and members. I commend the Panel for FINALLY admitting that! I've been harping on that issue for about 15 years or more now and finally it's admitted. 

Basically, what this Symposium appears to be is an apologetic effort to conform a Trinity Doctrine to Ellen White's recorded statements on the "mutable" Christ. I think the SDA Church has been more or less forced into this - its either do it this way or formally admit Ellen wasn't a prophet in the Biblical sense and was just making up stuff as she went along the gravy train of being on the ground floor of yet another Church start up. 

I'm glad Gregory posted this Symposium, it indeed answered a few questions I had. 

 

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