Has Babylon fallen, has fallen, yet?

[stinsonmarri]

On 7/1/2018 at 12:40 AM, Ron Amnsn said:

Stinsonmarri, do you have any Scripture that actually states that Jerusalem is Babylon?  In Revelation and elsewhere Jerusalem is referred to as Sodom and Egypt, but I haven't yet come across any verses that speak of Jerusalem as being Babylon.  In the Old Testament prophets Jerusalem is definitely not Babylon.

Yes, and some have already provided the Scriptures. Most do not read Rev 11:2, 8 which clearly states that Egypt and Sodom are classified as spiritually cities not Babylon. I also agree with 8thdaypriest when she stated: "I do not believe that Jerusalem is CURRENTLY "Babylon."  I feel we should prove this from the Bible also.

And say, Thus saith YAHWEH ELOHIYM unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite. Eze 16:3 

And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbor, Wherefore hath YAHWEH done thus unto this great city? Jer 22:8 

The Bible has indicated Resen,  Nineveh, Gibeon, and Jerusalem as great cities. But you will not found that ancient Babylon was ever called the "great city," in the Old Testament.

Jerusalem is predicted to become eventually Babylon because her cup of iniquity has become full and the the Bible shows when!

Thy holy cities are a wilderness; Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. Isa 64:10 

Be thou instructed, O Jerusalem, lest my soul depart from thee; lest I make thee desolate, a land not inhabited. Jer 6:8 

Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate. Jer 7:34

“And from the time that which is continual is taken away, and the abomination that lays waste is set up, is one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:11 Scripture 98+

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:15 

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 21:24 

Time here in the Greek and in the Hebrew always means an appointed or set time. Fulfilled is a prediction that their cup is fill up or had ended! See Rev 11:2

YAHSHUA saith unto her, Woman, believe ME, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship THE FATHER. John 4:21 

Two other major prophets provided what is known as a two-fold prophecy on Jerusalem. One was during the prophecy of that time and the other in the future or final fate of Jerusalem in the last days!

Daniel was given this prediction and then YAHSHUA also provided the event as well. HE first stated that the righteous will see the sign to leave the city before its final destruction. I have stated before that after the 3 1/2 years, then will probation begin. Probation is only an hour according to Daniel and Revelation and this is prophetic time. One hour is 60 days, when man will be without intercessor! During this time is when Jerusalem will become Babylon, you must understand states YAHSHUA!

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zech 14:2 

Here again is a prophecy that especially fits the last days. In history all the nations of the earth have never gather together. Secondly all have never destroyed Jerusalem together at one time, this is a future prediction. Exactly in one hour or during the last two months of this sinful earth history will Jerusalem/Babylon fall. Her cup of indignation has been become full. She and only she has killed prophets and saints, the Catholic Church has never killed any prophets. Persecution always started within with Jerusalem, they would killed those who would reject their false beliefs.

I hope this is satisfactory and have answer fully your question! Again, I am a presenter and I ask all to check out and research with prayer and choose always truth!

Blessings!

[B/W Photodude]

15 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I am a strong believer in the 2300 days representing the 2300 years from Alexander's victory over Persia in BC 334-333 to the retaking of Jerusalem by the Jews in AD 1967. One basis to support this day for a year in Daniel 8 is the 70 week prophecy, given in Daniel 9 at the same time, and very much integrated with the 2300 day prophecy.

I would be a strong believer also, if, … that was what the Bible actually said!

[B/W Photodude]

22 hours ago, TrevorL said:

All of these will be progressive, and SDAs will need to adjust in their view as the events unfold if they are not overcome by some of these.

This reminds me of Hillary when she said Christians need to adjust their beliefs to meet the society around them. Do keep in mind it is a very narrow path to salvation and few will find it. Adjusting beliefs to accommodate others will be the wide path that nearly everyone will find. There are two doors at the end of the highways both marked heaven. Unfortunately, many on that broad path that goes thru the door marked heaven will find too late that they have been deceived.

[B/W Photodude]

On July 1, 2018 at 9:54 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

The "dead bodies" are those of the "two witnesses".

The "city" where Jesus was crucified was Jerusalem. 

It is the SAME "great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt". 

I do not believe that Jerusalem is CURRENTLY "Babylon".  I believe she will become Babylon, in the last days, when she capitulates to "the Beast" in order to buy continued life and security and prosperity.  

 

4 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Yes, the passage does identify Jerusalem (where our Lord was crucified) and says it has been called Sodom and Egypt.  We can find some places in the Old Testament where Jerusalem or its inhabitants were likened to Sodom, and maybe a few passages where it is likened to Egypt.

But this passage about the two witnesses in Revelation 11 doesn't mention Babylon.  At the beginning of the passage about the two witnesses (Rev 11:2) it refers to Jerusalem as the "holy city".

Is there any evidence in Scripture that anyone should ever believe that Jerusalem is Babylon?

I know that some would rather eat a ghost pepper than read EGW, but I would suggest that the chapter in the Great Controversy regarding the French Revolution be considered as it discusses the various points of confusion thru this thread.

"Where also our Lord was crucified." This specification of the prophecy was also fulfilled by France. In no land had the spirit of enmity against Christ been more strikingly displayed. In no country had the truth encountered more bitter and cruel opposition. In the persecution which France had visited upon the confessors of the gospel, she had crucified Christ in the person of His disciples.

"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth." Infidel France had silenced the reproving voice of God's two witnesses. The word of truth lay dead in her streets, and those who hated the restrictions and requirements of God's law were jubilant. Men publicly defied the King of heaven. Like the sinners of old, they cried: "How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the Most High?" Psalm 73:11.

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc15.html

What is the Word of Truth but the Bible and referred to in the Bible as the Two Witnesses, or the Old/New Testaments. 

Again, I come back to the concept of the surface meaning of any text is often not the meaning of the Bible and this principle was used by Jesus in the telling of the parable of the Sower of the Seed.

[stinsonmarri]

Ron Amnsn you stated: "When people try to apply the year-for-a-day principle to prophecies that lack a period of literal days (such as the 2300 days), or lack observable starting and ending events for the period of literal days (such as the 2300 days) or lack observable starting or ending events for the period of literal years (such as the 2300 years) they are merely speculating without regard for the way the Bible applies a year for a day to prophecy." It is not people applying it is what the Bible says:

And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. Dan 9:22  

If you read Daniel Chapter Two, you would find that even the Chaldean could not provide the understanding or to explain what the King dream. They kept begging him to first tell them what they dream! This tell you man nor Satan can read the mind. It also tell you that these heathen people recognize that only THE THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS that did not dwell in the flesh of man,  are THE ONLY ONES that could provide the dream. Notice the word gods in plural was used here. I will not further comment here but this is very important, also the low case g!!!! Moving on what I am saying is that YAHWEH gave Daniel the understanding and Gabriel has come at this time to explain the vision. Now let's be sensible here Gabriel provided 70 weeks and if you multiply it the it would be 490 days. So after Daniel literally 490 days, then MESSIAH came and died??????

...'After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.' Num 14:34

...'And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.' Ezek 4:6

So let's see is the 490 years is correct. Israel not Jews (the word Jew was started until after the final destruction of the temple in AD 70). Israel time went from 457 BC to 34 AD and if you subtract it you 490. That did not come out of anybody magical hat, that is a fact. However, that dealing with prophecy but  Dan 12:7, Rev 11:2, 3 all says the same thing but with a specification that appears to be overlooked.

 And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long until the end of these wonders?” Dan 12:6 Scripture 98+

In the very next verse THE MAN reaches both HANDS to Heaven and swear to HIS FATHER is YAHSHUA and HE clearly states time would be no longer. This here again is appointed time or set time not prophetic time! Paul also provides the proven time:

For HE will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the MASTER make upon the earth. Rom 9:28  SACRED NAME KJV  

This was literal and remember our ways, thoughts are not like THE ALMIGHTY, HE  set up years of time and changes set time and set up and remove kings. HE also gives wisdom and knowledge and HE is THE ONLY ONE that reveals secrets and knows what in man's mind. Isa 55:8, 9; Dan 2:21, 22, 28, 30

So at the end of the day ELOAH (the single NAME) says Daniel let's us know the difference between prophetic time and literal time. No one on this earth has that ability and that is why it is only found in the Bible when, where and how!

Blessings!

 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Amnsn]

5 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Yes, and some have already provided the Scriptures.

The Scripture passages you and others provided don't actually say that Jerusalem is Babylon or will become Babylon.  Context is important.  This thread has demonstrated that some people have no regard for the historical context or the literary context or the cultural context of the Scripture passages that they quote short pieces of.  Yikes.  Using the poor methods of prophetic interpretation demonstrated here a person could stretch and abuse the Scriptures to say just about anything about prophecy, even if it directly contradicts the promises and covenants of God given in God's Word. 

There are lots of passages in Scripture that say Jerusalem is doing evil, because lots of evil has been done in Jerusalem.  There are lots of passages in Scripture that say that Jerusalem will be conquered by Babylon and by other nations.  Jerusalem has been conquered by Babylon and by other nations and has been in bondage to those nations at various times.  Both the Israelites and the conquering nations have at various times set up abominations in Jerusalem.  That is history, and it could happen again. The prophecies reflect that.  But none of those facts make the city of Jerusalem equal to the Babylon of prophecy.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron Amnsn and Greetings B/W Photodude,

9 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Well, your interpretation of the 2300 years at least has an observable ending event.  However, without any corresponding period of 2300 literal days with starting and ending events, you've applied the year-for-a-day theory in a speculative way that is without example in the Bible.

You have established a rule from one portion of Scripture and demand that it has to apply in Daniel 8 and 9. Do you apply the same to Daniel 12:11-12 and the 1290 and 1335 days? I suggest that the few examples where a period of literal days are then used to symbolise the same number of years should be sufficient to indicate that some prophetic days are used to symbolise the same number of years.

9 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

The prophecy in Daniel 9 of the seventy "sevens" is probably not an example of a year-for-a-day prophecy because the seventy "sevens" refer very literally to the already-existing seven-year cycles of the land-sabbaths of Leviticus 25 (rather than to any "weeks" of seven symbolic days that would need to be converted to "prophetic" years). 

I thought that most people would accept the 70-week prophecy as being fulfilled in Christ.

5 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I would be a strong believer also, if, … that was what the Bible actually said!

Perhaps you should consider the detail of Daniel 8 and also Luke 21:24 where Jesus seems to be quoting and alluding to Daniel 8. It was the Greeks and Romans that have trodden down Judea and Jerusalem while the Persians supported the rebuilding of the Temple, so the term trodden down must start with the Greeks, when the goat slew the ram. Jesus is speaking of the literal Jerusalem that was to be besieged and the Temple destroyed by the Romans in AD70. I find it interesting to try to understand some of these prophecies 1 Peter 1:10-12.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Ron Amnsn]

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Now let's be sensible here Gabriel provided 70 weeks and if you multiply it the it would be 490 days.

Although in some English translations of the Bible it does say it was 70 "weeks" (which in normal English would always refer to periods of seven days, making 490 days), the original Hebrew does not say "weeks".  The Hebrew text uses a word that means "sevens", which could refer to periods of seven years (which marked the land-Sabbaths of Leviticus 25), or to periods of seven days.  A couple centuries before Jesus was born the Hebrew scholars who translated the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint) understood the Hebrew word for "sevens" to mean seven-year periods because they understood the Old Testament and how it provided the context for the prophecy.  They translated the Hebrew word for "sevens" into Greek as hebdomades (seven-year periods).  The Greek word hebdomades appears only in Leviticus 25 and Daniel 9 in the Septuagint where it is used specifically to refer to the seven-year periods of the land-Sabbaths.  The word hebdomades never refers to seven-day weeks in either the Greek Old Testament nor in the Greek New Testament.

Remember that in Leviticus 26:34-35 & 43 God stipulated that the Israelites would go into exile if they did not let the land have a year-long rest or land-Sabbath every seven years.  2Chronicles 36:20-21 tells us that was the reason that Jerusalem (including Daniel) was taken into captivity in Babylon for 70 years as prophesied by Jeremiah was because the land needed 70 years of rest to make up for 70 land-Sabbaths that had been violated. Daniel was aware Jeremiah's prophecy in Daniel 2, so the 70 seven-year periods of the violated land-Sabbaths were already part of his thinking. Daniel would have understood from Leviticus 25-26 and 2Chronicles 36 that the exile was 70 years long due to the land-Sabbaths being violated over a period of 490 years.  Notice the exact match between the time period of Daniel's exile and the same number of seven-year cycles being repeated in the 490-year prophecy of Daniel 9.

Since the plain literal meaning of what is written in Daniel 9 in Hebrew refers to seventy seven-year periods, or 490 years, there is no reason to interpret it as 490 days, since nobody (including Daniel) ever thought Messiah would come within 490 days of the time that Daniel was given the prophecy.

[Ron Amnsn]

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

You have established a rule from one portion of Scripture and demand that it has to apply in Daniel 8 and 9.

That is not true.  I have looked at all the places where the Bible explicitly uses a year for a day in prophecy.  Those prophecies all have the characteristics that I mentioned earlier.  It is not a "rule".  But it is consistent enough in Scripture that we can say for certain that there is no example or precedent in Scripture for a "prophetic" (non-literal) day to represent a year in prophecy without a period of literal days marked by observable events at the start and at the end, or without a corresponding period of literal years marked by observable events at the start and end.

There is a "rule" about prophecies in God's Law of Moses that requires the fulfillment of a prophecy (the event marking the end of the prophecy) to be observable.  (See Deuteronomy 18:22)  According to what God taught the Israelites, a fulfillment that occurs somewhere where it could not be observed would not be an acceptable fulfillment for a true prophecy made by a true prophet.  I believe that "rule" still applies to prophecy and to interpretations of prophecy.

 

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Do you apply the same to Daniel 12:11-12 and the 1290 and 1335 days?

I would expect the the 1290 days and 1335 days to be periods of literal days.

 

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I thought that most people would accept the 70-week prophecy as being fulfilled in Christ.

I do accept that the 490-year prophecy pointed to the first-coming of Messiah.  I do not accept that it was ever a prophecy designated in seven-day weeks, but was instead originally designated as 70 literal seven-year periods or 70 land-Sabbaths or 490 years.

 

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I suggest that the few examples where a period of literal days are then used to symbolise the same number of years should be sufficient to indicate that some prophetic days are used to symbolise the same number of years.

Whether or not that is sufficient evidence to allow other interpretations would depend on how comfortable a person is extrapolating with man-made theories or suggestions, or how comfortable a person is relying on numerology to understand Scripture.  If I used either of those methods to interpret prophecy, I would make it very clear to everyone that I was using speculative methods to reach speculative interpretations of prophecy.  I would not be comfortable using those methods to teach something that other people might rely on to make significant decisions as events unfold quickly during the closing events of Revelation.

I believe the prophecies were primarily given to give us hope for the future, and to provide confirmation of God's Word as we see the prophecies fulfilled, rather than to allow us to predict the future.

[8thdaypriest]

On 7/2/2018 at 5:21 PM, JoeMo said:

Just for the sake of discussion, I would like to propose another alternative for Babylon.

1. Rev.18:11-13 indicates that Babylon is a great city with massive wealth and huge merchant function.  Jerusalem in NOT a worldwide center of merchant activity.

 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves."

2.Rev. 18:17-19 indicates that sea merchants will lament the destruction of Babylon.  Jerusalem does not have a port - much less a major seaport.

“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18 When they see the smoke of her burning,they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ 19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    where all who had ships on the sea
    became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

I would propose to you that these two prophecies indicate a much more major port than Jerusalem.  What about Mecca/Medina?  It is by far the largest port on the Red Sea and the center of non-petroleum merchant trade in the Middle East. 

3. Mecca is also by for the most visited place on earth because of the Islamic hajj. Could Rev. 13:3 be a hint to this?  Islam is projected to bypass Christianity as the world's largest religion by 2030 - by birth rate alone if nothing else.

"The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast."

Do you suppose these might be air "ships".  Israel is situated at the crossroads of many trade routes. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 7/4/2018 at 10:56 AM, Ron Amnsn said:

Is there any evidence in Scripture that anyone should ever believe that Jerusalem is Babylon?

Is there any evidence that Israel, will become a "harlot" ? 

Yes.   It happened in the past.  It will happen again. 

The city Babylon, is depicted as a harlot - riding the terrible Beast of Rev. 13. 

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zech 14:2 

Here again is a prophecy that especially fits the last days. In history all the nations of the earth have never gather together. Secondly all have never destroyed Jerusalem together at one time, this is a future prediction. Exactly in one hour or during the last two months of this sinful earth history will Jerusalem/Babylon fall. Her cup of indignation has been become full. She and only she has killed prophets and saints, the Catholic Church has never killed any prophets. Persecution always started within with Jerusalem, they would killed those who would reject their false beliefs.

Revelation 17:12-17   And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13 These are united in yielding their power and authority to the beast; 14 they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful." 15 And he said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the whore is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the whore; they will make her desolate and naked; they will devour her flesh and burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by agreeing to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. (NRS)

In the last months of this age, the whole world will worship the Beast (and the Dragon behind him). 

The Beast has 7 heads (which I believe are sequential).   

The final head receives a "deadly wound", but that head comes back to life.   That head grows 10 horns, minus 3, plus 1 - the little horn which grows to rule the rest.

The "horns" with crowns are concurrent.  They must be concurrent to all attack "the whore" at the same time. 

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship him" (the Beast and his little horn enforcer) except those whose names are written in the Book of Life (Rev 13:8). 

I believe that in the last days, this earth will be divided into 10 regions, each ruled by one of the "ten kings".  This in an effort to bring peace to the worlds warring nations. 

All the 10 will yield their authority to the Beast, and will give military support to the Beast.  

Interesting that "God has put it into their hearts" to give their authority and power to the Beast, to carry out the Beast's plans to destroy "the whore".   Must mean the Lord is executing His judgment on "the whore". 

It makes me wonder.  Maybe Israel (the modern nation) will refuse to be incorporated into one of the 10 regions, not wanting to be ruled by one of the 10 kings. 

 

[Ron Amnsn]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Is there any evidence that Israel, will become a "harlot" ? 

Yes.   It happened in the past.  It will happen again. 

The city Babylon, is depicted as a harlot - riding the terrible Beast of Rev. 13. 

And which Bible passage tells us that there is only one harlot? 
That's almost as convincing as saying that the city of Babylon is depicted as a human, and the anointed one is also depicted as a human, so the anointed one must be Babylon.  Yes, that's absurd.

[8thdaypriest]

On 7/4/2018 at 4:00 PM, B/W Photodude said:

"Where also our Lord was crucified." This specification of the prophecy was also fulfilled by France. In no land had the spirit of enmity against Christ been more strikingly displayed. In no country had the truth encountered more bitter and cruel opposition. In the persecution which France had visited upon the confessors of the gospel, she had crucified Christ in the person of His disciples.

Good point.  The word "also" suggests that Christ has been crucified where His disciples have been martyred.  

The video taped beheading s of those 20 Christian men in orange jumpsuits, comes to mind. 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I am not so sure of this statement, mainly due to other texts regarding prophecy that seem to say other-wise:

Historically, there have been many attempts to unify all of the major players, but it appears to me that all such attempts will fail. Such "unity" of the ten or any others is not really what prophecy depicts; it is not needed for prophecy to be fulfilled. This is where people often err, in regards to whats going to happen and when. Its not a matter of just watching the news to "see what happens." (not saying YOU are doing that)

As the nations begin to experience the trumpet judgments (1/3 of mankind DEAD), I believe they will make a strong attempt to come together for the sake of peace.  The Little Horn figure will rise to become a Hitler type - a strong charismatic leader with big promises.  People are always looking for such a leader to "save" them. 

[8thdaypriest]

59 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

And which Bible passage tells us that there is only one harlot? 
That's almost as convincing as saying that the city of Babylon is depicted as a human, and the anointed one is also depicted as a human, so the anointed one must be Babylon.  Yes, that's absurd.

Pagan nations were not called "harlot" - by the LORD. They were not "married" to the LORD by covenant.  Only Israel was "married" to the LORD.  For which "harlotry" He gave her a bill of divorcement.  (Jeremiah)

Judah became a "widow" when the LORD (her husband) died by crucifixion.  

Under the "New Covenant" Christ is betrothed to (legally married to) His Church. 

If PART of Israel (the10 tribes) could be called a "harlot" and divorced by the LORD, leaving 2 tribes still married to the LORD,  then why would it not be possible for part of the "Church" to be called a "harlot", while a remnant of the Church remains faithfully married to the LORD?

[8thdaypriest]

19 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

  On 7/4/2018 at 4:00 PM, B/W Photodude said:

"Where also our Lord was crucified." This specification of the prophecy was also fulfilled by France. In no land had the spirit of enmity against Christ been more strikingly displayed. In no country had the truth encountered more bitter and cruel opposition. In the persecution which France had visited upon the confessors of the gospel, she had crucified Christ in the person of His disciples.

Historically, so far, which has killed more Christians - for their faith?  Islam or Rome or Atheism?

Doesn't mean the another will not exceed, in the final days.

[8thdaypriest]

I do not see the "two witnesses" as the Old and New Testaments, because the "two witnesses" are resurrected when they hear the Voice of God, and they ascend to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 

Revelation 11:11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and those who saw them were terrified. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud while their enemies watched them. (NRS)

Then the 7th angel sounded his trumpet. 

[Ron Amnsn]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Pagan nations were not called "harlot" - by the LORD. They were not "married" to the LORD by covenant.  Only Israel was "married" to the LORD.  For which "harlotry" He gave her a bill of divorcement.  (Jeremiah)

Judah became a "widow" when the LORD (her husband) died by crucifixion.  

Under the "New Covenant" Christ is betrothed to (legally married to) His Church. 

If PART of Israel (the10 tribes) could be called a "harlot" and divorced by the LORD, leaving 2 tribes still married to the LORD,  then why would it not be possible for part of the "Church" to be called a "harlot", while a remnant of the Church remains faithfully married to the LORD?

I haven't seen any evidence that Judah became a widow, in God's eyes, while Jesus died for three days but the rest of the Godhead remained alive.  But if it were somehow true that Judah was widowed, then Judah would thereafter be free to marry another without being a harlot.  Of course that unlikely scenario requires that God planned from the very inception of the Sinai covenant (or before) to leave the Israelite nation widowed when Messiah died, and that God therefore never intended to actually fulfill the covenant and promises that he made to the Israelite nation and to specific individuals within the nation.  Since that scenario is contrary to the Word of God on multiple levels, I think we should discard the notion that Judah was widowed at the death of Jesus.

It seems possible that the Church, or a part thereof, would be unfaithful and be called a harlot, while the remnant remains faithful.

While it is true that in Jeremiah 3:8 God says that he sent Israel (the 10 tribes) away with an allegorical letter of divorce, if you read a few more verses and to the end of the chapter, it becomes very evident that the allegorical letter of divorce did not represent the actual permanent status of God's relationship with Israel (the 10 tribes).

Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say,
                  “ ‘Return, faithless Israel,
                declares the LORD.
                  I will not look on you in anger,
      for I am merciful,
                declares the LORD;
                  I will not be angry forever.' "  (Jeremiah 3:12)

God's covenant with the Israelites was not allegorical.  God's covenant document with the Israelites was written on stone and placed in the Ark of the Covenant.  At the sounding of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11 (after the two witnesses went up to heaven) the Ark of the Covenant is seen in heaven. (Rev. 11:19)

At the time that the apostle Paul wrote the book of Romans, Paul says about the non-believing Israelites, "They are Israelites, and to them belong ... the covenants, ... and the promises."  (Romans 9:4)  Paul said that in the present tense a number of years after Messiah was resurrected.  Evidently God is faithful to his covenants and promises, even when the Israelites are unfaithful.  Doesn't it alarm you when you teach a different Gospel than the apostle Paul taught?

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

I haven't seen any evidence that Judah became a widow, in God's eyes, while Jesus died for three days but the rest of the Godhead remained alive.  But if it were somehow true that Judah was widowed, then Judah would thereafter be free to marry another without being a harlot.  Of course that unlikely scenario requires that God planned from the very inception of the Sinai covenant (or before) to leave the Israelite nation widowed when Messiah died, and that God therefore never intended to actually fulfill the covenant and promises that he made to the Israelite nation and to specific individuals within the nation.  Since that scenario is contrary to the Word of God on multiple levels, I think we should discard the notion that Judah was widowed at the death of Jesus.

Ron, you and I have debated the idea that Judah was widowed.  I do not believe this scenario is "contrary to the Word of God". 

Romans 7:4 "Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law (in the eyes of the law) through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God."

Paul refers to Christ risen as "another", to whom believers (including Jews) may be "married". 

"The rest of the Godhead" ??  Jesus and His Father are two separate beings.  One could remain alive, while the other was "dead".  This is how God planned to keep all of creation alive by His power, while at the same time dying for that creation - in the person of His Son. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

At the time that the apostle Paul wrote the book of Romans, Paul says about the non-believing Israelites, "They are Israelites, and to them belong ... the covenants, ... and the promises."  (Romans 9:4)  Paul said that in the present tense a number of years after Messiah was resurrected.  Evidently God is faithful to his covenants and promises, even when the Israelites are unfaithful.  Doesn't it alarm you when you teach a different Gospel than the apostle Paul taught?

Getting personal, accusing and impolite so soon? 

Jesus said that no one - not even the "Israel" of Mount Sinai, will be saved but through Him.  No amount of Law keeping will earn any "promises" - regardless of one's DNA or ancestral history of covenant making. 

The 10 Commands were a promise of what HE would do - in them,  if they would believe in HIM.   Very, very few believed. 

Yes - the LORD does try to win back His children who have gone away from Him, but there comes a point where He will let them go.   Those who believe (in Jesus Christ) are "grafted in" to Israel.  Unbelievers (in Christ Jesus) will finally be "cut off" from Israel.  The LORD will keep His promises - to believing Israel - who are faithful because of their belief. 

It's not about DNA.  It's about faith.  Most will be very surprised by just who - in the Kingdom - are called citizens of "Israel". 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 7/5/2018 at 9:26 AM, The Wanderer said:

Why do I say its "observable? Because the Jewish Day of Atonement was on the tenth day of the seventh month, at which time the sanctuary was cleansed.

I thought it was called the "Great Disappointment" because no one, on that date in 1844,  was able to "observe" anything happening. 

[B/W Photodude]

46 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I thought it was called the "Great Disappointment" because no one, on that date in 1844,  was able to "observe" anything happening. 

You would be ahead in understanding if you understood the history of the "Great Disappointment", the followup searching of Scripture by the "disappointed" wanting to learn why they were so "disappointed", and their subsequent understanding of exactly what was "supposed" to happen in 1844. Rather than pick up bits n pieces here n there on an internet forum, perhaps you could try reading Clifford Goldstein's book "1844 Made Simple." In this book he went out of his way to NOT quote EGW at any time and present 1844 solely from Scripture. (This recommendation goes for many here at Adventistan wanting to understand 1844, or at least the understanding of the early pioneers of the Adventist church. Unfortunately, even many Adventists seem to be lacking in this understanding.)

[8thdaypriest]

Wondering about the definition of "harlot" in Revelation.   Is this just a woman who is unfaithful to her marriage covenant, or is this a woman who sells sex (her favors) for money or other compensation?  I noticed that different translations use different words, "harlot" - "whore" - "prostitute".  Also looked up the words.  Seems a woman who committed fornication could be called a "whore", even when she was NOT "selling" it.  A "whore" was a woman who had (willing) sex outside of marriage.  

If she is "selling" her favors, are those who trade sad when she is destroyed BECAUSE that is the "favor" - trade - a way to trade globally?  She provides a way or a place for them to trade their goods?  

The "mark of the Beast" - 666 - by which men buy or sell goods and services - may be an identifying personal number ("the number of a man").   I believe that "mark" may be a number made up of six digits, six digits, six digits (xxxxxx-xxxxxx-xxxxxx).  Such a system could "identify" every human being on the planet.  Currently MasterCard numbers are 4-4-4-4.  It works for MasterCard.  

Could it be, that the "whore" provides this globally secure trade system, and the way to enforce this system - of buying and selling goods?  She serves the Beast who wants control of the world, by excluding (or threatening to exclude) those persons who will not serve (worship) the ruling Beast.  

When she goes down in flames - no more trade.

Now with THAT senario,  the "woman" could be Israel (the modern nation) - (symbolized as "Jerusalem"), because Israel has come up with very advanced systems for internet communication.  Washington DC is often used to symbolize the United States. 

Bible students in the past, could not conceive of those things we know today, like buying online from amazon. 

For the Beast system to work, we will need to get to a cashless society.

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, B/W Photodude said:

You would be ahead in understanding if you understood the history of the "Great Disappointment", the followup searching of Scripture by the "disappointed" wanting to learn why they were so "disappointed", and their subsequent understanding of exactly what was "supposed" to happen in 1844. Rather than pick up bits n pieces here n there on an internet forum, perhaps you could try reading Clifford Goldstein's book "1844 Made Simple." In this book he went out of his way to NOT quote EGW at any time and present 1844 solely from Scripture. (This recommendation goes for many here at Adventistan wanting to understand 1844, or at least the understanding of the early pioneers of the Adventist church. Unfortunately, even many Adventists seem to be lacking in this understanding.)

I've read it.  Scolding noted.  Also reading "The 1844 Investigative Judgment - Fact or Fiction" by Roy Ingram.