Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 14, 2018 Moderators Posted July 14, 2018 For More on the Trinity see: https://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story6292-adventist-anti-trinitarianism-and-alexandrian-theology and https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-jym9x-9426aa Quote Gregory
Gustave Posted July 14, 2018 Posted July 14, 2018 9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said: For More on the Trinity see: https://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story6292-adventist-anti-trinitarianism-and-alexandrian-theology and https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-jym9x-9426aa Origen stated that there was "no time when the Son was not" - not to minimize some "issues" with Origen I think the 1st article written by the SDA Pastor is way off the mark - Origen would not have subscribed to the Doctrines of the Early SDA's whereas the Godhead was concerned - he would have condemned them and indeed did condemn several of them. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 The Son of God "created all things". Time is a created dimension. The Son of God EXISTED before "time" was created. There was "no time when the Son was not". JoeMo and ReturntoDar 2 Quote 8thdaypriest
Gustave Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 On 7/19/2018 at 3:35 PM, 8thdaypriest said: The Son of God "created all things". Time is a created dimension. The Son of God EXISTED before "time" was created. There was "no time when the Son was not". Are you saying that prior to "time" - within eternity prior to the creation event that The Son was begat and prior to that didn't exist? As in the following way: Review and Herald, November 14 1854 Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; but that the Father alone is supremely, or absolutely, good; AND that he alone is immortal in an absolute sense; that he alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being. This idea is most emphatically expressed by our savior himself; " For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John v, 26. In other -words are you saying that at some point inside eternity that the Son wasn't self existent? Quote
8thdaypriest Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Gustave said: Are you saying that prior to "time" - within eternity prior to the creation event that The Son was begat and prior to that didn't exist? As in the following way: Review and Herald, November 14 1854 Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; but that the Father alone is supremely, or absolutely, good; AND that he alone is immortal in an absolute sense; that he alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being. This idea is most emphatically expressed by our savior himself; " For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John v, 26. In other -words are you saying that at some point inside eternity that the Son wasn't self existent? The Son (note the identifier "Son") would not have existed, except that He was begotten from His Father. BEFORE He was begotten from His Father, He existed only in His Father's mind. If the term "before" can even be used in eternity - before time as we know it began. Once begotten, with the same nature as His Father, the Son would Himself then be a source of life. The same cannot be said of angels or men, which cannot create life from themselves. If Satan could create life , he would have! During His incarnation - into the form and nature of a human being - the Son could NOT create life, or give life, except when the power of His Father flowed THROUGH Him. The verse from John that you quoted, was Jesus speaking during His incarnation. He also said: John 14:10 "The Father who dwells in Me does the works." Quote 8thdaypriest
Gustave Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 13 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said: The Son (note the identifier "Son") would not have existed, except that He was begotten from His Father. BEFORE He was begotten from His Father, He existed only in His Father's mind. If the term "before" can even be used in eternity - before time as we know it began. Once begotten, with the same nature as His Father, the Son would Himself then be a source of life. The same cannot be said of angels or men, which cannot create life from themselves. If Satan could create life , he would have! During His incarnation - into the form and nature of a human being - the Son could NOT create life, or give life, except when the power of His Father flowed THROUGH Him. The verse from John that you quoted, was Jesus speaking during His incarnation. He also said: John 14:10 "The Father who dwells in Me does the works." So, in your understanding what is the mystery? Sounds as if you have explained everything? Had you been a Bishop invited to Nicaea would you have been the 4th one to agree with Arius? Do you also believe that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation? Quote
8thdaypriest Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Gustave said: So, in your understanding what is the mystery? Sounds as if you have explained everything? Colossians 1:26 "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Many mysteries mentioned in Scripture. The above is the greatest. Why? Because this is HOW we may partake of salvation. Quote 8thdaypriest
Gustave Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 47 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said: Colossians 1:26 "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Many mysteries mentioned in Scripture. The above is the greatest. Why? Because this is HOW we may partake of salvation. I was thinking of 1 Timothy 3,9 & specifically 1 Timothy 3, 16 in that it says it was "God" that was manifested in the flesh. As I reject Ellen White's teaching that the Father was a flesh and bone hominid God that defaults into The Son of God being "God", exactly as the text says. Do you believe that Christ was peccable? Quote
JoeMo Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 I am leading worship tomorrow at the small SDA Church I have been attending for several years now (less and less). Since it is an older crowd, I'm singing old hymns rather than contemporary songs. One of the songs I'm doing is "Holy, Holy, Holy". The first and last verse traditionally end with "God in three Persons, Blessed Trinity". I did find a version of the song that ends those verses with "God over all Who rules eternity". I think I remember that version in the old black SDA Hymnal from the 1960's and 70's. I don't have that hymnal, so I can't check. Does anyone else remember that version? If so, maybe there were some folks out there that weren't convinced of a Trinity quite a while ago. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote
JoeMo Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 "Hymn No. 73 (Holy, Holy, Holy): This hymn was originally written in 1826 by Reginald Heber. In its original form it was a Trinitarian song, which read at the end of the first and fourth stanzas follows: “God in three persons, blessed Trinity!” This song was placed in the 1909 and 1941 Seventh-day Adventist Hymnals, but the trinity part was at that time changed to: “God over all who rules eternity!” and “Perfect in power, in love and purity.”This song was purposely changed into a non-trinitarian song by Seventh-day Adventists, expressing their views on the Trinity back then. In the new 1985 Adventist Hymnal this song was changed back to its Catholic original, praising a three-in-one God. But this is not Scriptural." From http://thegreatcontroversy.info/errors-in-the-new-sda-hymna.html 8thdaypriest 1 Quote
8thdaypriest Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 Yes. I remember that hymn. There's also the one that ends "Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Amen." When I have to sing that song, I change it to "Praise Father and Son for the Holy Ghost." There is no command to praise the Holy Spirit. JoeMo and ReturntoDar 2 Quote 8thdaypriest
ReturntoDar Posted October 23, 2022 Posted October 23, 2022 Gustave asks if Christ was peccable (capable of sin)? Ellen White answers that question: "Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope" (1SM 256). Had Christ sinned, and he certainly could have he would have suffered the same fate as Adam. Eternal death. Jesus, Adam and the entire world, he would have ceased to exist. There would be no remedy for sin and the universe itself would have been plunged into utter despair. Christ indeed risked it all. Three times he went to his Father to ask permission to come to earth. His Father well knew the extreme risk and the terrible consquences should His son fail. There is ONE God, not three. Who is God? Ellen White tells us: "God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God". Take the bible, and Ellen White, "just as it reads". Quote
Gustave Posted February 5, 2023 Posted February 5, 2023 On 10/23/2022 at 4:41 AM, ReturntoDar said: Gustave asks if Christ was peccable (capable of sin)? Ellen White answers that question: "Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope" (1SM 256). Had Christ sinned, and he certainly could have he would have suffered the same fate as Adam. Eternal death. Jesus, Adam and the entire world, he would have ceased to exist. There would be no remedy for sin and the universe itself would have been plunged into utter despair. Christ indeed risked it all. Three times he went to his Father to ask permission to come to earth. His Father well knew the extreme risk and the terrible consquences should His son fail. There is ONE God, not three. Who is God? Ellen White tells us: "God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God". Take the bible, and Ellen White, "just as it reads". Ellen White answered that question horrifically wrong. There are many explicit Scriptures which affirm impossible Christ sinning, loosing His Salvation and being eternally exterminated. Quote
ReturntoDar Posted March 5, 2023 Posted March 5, 2023 Ellen White is a prophet. Prophets don't offer false counsel. Some folks just don't believe or recognize truth. Christ, like Adam, like ALL beings in the universe of God, has free choice. Jesus, as God or man, could in fact dismiss the will of God, decided for Himself what He would, or wouldn't do. In the same way Satan, humanity, and ALL of the angels. "Free will" is God's highest law. Those who choose to ignore the counsel of God, including His Son, at some point will cease to exist. Jesus has free will, there is no question He could have sinned, but did not. phkrause 1 Quote
Hanseng Posted June 1, 2023 Posted June 1, 2023 On 2/5/2023 at 4:53 PM, Gustave said: There are many explicit Scriptures which affirm impossible Christ sinning, loosing His Salvation and being eternally exterminated. Gustave, Please offer a few texts which affirm it was impossible for Christ to sin. Quote
Gustave Posted June 1, 2023 Posted June 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Hanseng said: Gustave, Please offer a few texts which affirm it was impossible for Christ to sin. Sure, Luke 24,22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, AND slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24,36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them. And he said unto them, These ARE the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL things MUST be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day Jesus called His Apostles "FOOLS" for their not believing all that the Prophets had spoken. One of the many things said was that God Himself was going to come and save us. Isaiah 35,4 Say to the fainthearted: Take courage, and fear not: behold your God WILL bring the revenge of recompense: God himself WILL come and WILL save you.Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.Then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb shall be free: for waters are broken out in the desert, and streams in the wilderness. If God Himself said He WOULD COME AND SAVE US what sort of mind concocts a hypothetical situation whereas what God said HE WOULD DO could have turned out the opposite of what God said He would do? That's the first concept I'd like you to consider. The 2nd thing I'll mention is Jesus' presentation at the Temple when He was very much still an infant. Luke 2,25 And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; Because my eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples God the Holy Spirit PROMISED Simeon that He would not die until he had seen "THE CHRIST". A potential Christ IS NOT A CHRIST UNTIL HE IS A CHRIST. Simeon clearly said his own eyes had seen God's salvation which had been long prior "prepared". Another: Isaiah 42,1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Here is the point where you say BUT HE COULD HAVE FAILED. No, He couldn't. Another proof would be in the Book of Daniel. Daniel 2,44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. Even the Jehovah's Witnesses will admit that this text was speaking of Christ - the "GREAT GOD" made known to the king that Christ WOULD NOT FAIL - the text explicitly states what was to come to pass - the dream was certain and the interpretation thereof SURE. As for some additional examples of Jesus saying how things would end up I offer the following. Matthew 1,20 the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he SHALL save his people from their sins Matthew 16,21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, AND suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, AND be killed, AND be raised again the third day. Mark 8,31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man MUST suffer many things, AND be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, AND scribes, AND be killed, AND after three days rise again And another approximate 100 texts that are equally clear that God saving us was without question. Verses: Ellen White Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope.” ( Signs of the Times, June 9th 1898, see also Selected Messages Book 1 page 256) Signs of the Time April 2, 1940 It is VITAL for every Christian TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted." Seventh Day Adventist Signs of the Time April 2, 1940 It is VITAL for every Christian to know that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted." Longacre IF it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations were all a farce AND mere mockery. IF it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures AND the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin. IF Christ "risked all," EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and IF overcome by sin, He would have gone into Joseph's tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered "eternal loss," the loss of ALL He ever possessed &; His DIVINITY AND His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost. It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, "God, the Father", would still have remained as the One and only absolute and living God, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth. Quote
Hanseng Posted June 1, 2023 Posted June 1, 2023 Gustave, You have posted some texts which give traction to the assertion that Jesus could not sin. The "temptation" in the wilderness, what do you make of that? phkrause 1 Quote
Gustave Posted June 1, 2023 Posted June 1, 2023 5 hours ago, Hanseng said: Gustave, You have posted some texts which give traction to the assertion that Jesus could not sin. The "temptation" in the wilderness, what do you make of that? Scripture goes through many things that were fulfilled by Christ, Christ was tempted or "tested" to show He was the Christ. Scripture is clear that there would be no sin in The Christ, just like Scripture was clear as to where Jesus would be born. Scripture states Jesus was born where prophecy said He would just like Scripture is clear that there was no sin in Christ. Suggesting otherwise makes a mockery of God by claiming that: If Jesus couldn't have drowned when He walked on water Christ walking on water was a farce and mockery If Jesus couldn't have been born by a Greek prostitute his virgin birth was a farce and mockery. If Jesus didn't have the possibility of being envenomated by a cobra or being killed and eaten by a bear His coming to earth was a farce and mockery. If Jesus couldn't have sinned His coming to earth was a farce and a mockery. You can see I'm going with this. Jesus was "DRIVEN" into the wilderness by the Spirit and prior heading out Jesus told His disciples: John 14, 29: And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. Scripture informs us that there are two kinds of temptations, internal and external. Internal temptation is explained in James 1 where it's detailed that every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust. External temptation is when someone or something presents a situation that is sin in which you have no interest in - i.e. you are not drawn to it. Consider a homosexual man being propositioned by an incredibly hot woman to have an affair. The woman indeed tempted the homosexual BUT the homosexual was not tempted within himself. Now, if you switch things around and it was a married heterosexual man who was being tempted by the hot woman while on a business trip during a time where his wife and he had been fighting - well, now this married guy will feel the full BECAUSE he yearns or lusts for sin. I'm saying Christ did not have concupiscence. I'm saying Christ said He did not have concupiscence. I'm saying Jesus was clear that Satan had NOTHING IN HIM and in the context of temptation this is absolutely concupiscence. Quote
Hanseng Posted June 1, 2023 Posted June 1, 2023 Gustave, Adam was a sinless being who sinned. He apparently chose to sin without an inner tendency to sin. Satan appealed to Christ's uncorrupt physical desires through appetite. It's not a sin to experience hunger but it would have been a sin for Christ to use divine power to satisfy his hunger. Neither Jesus nor Adam were corrupted by original sin, as was the man of Romans 7. As Paul said, it was impossible for the Romans 7 man not to sin. It was possible for Adam to sin even though he was without an inner disposition to sin. I would say the same about Jesus. When Isaiah said He will not fail, he was right. That doesn't mean he could not have failed. phkrause 1 Quote
Gustave Posted June 2, 2023 Posted June 2, 2023 9 hours ago, Hanseng said: Gustave, Adam was a sinless being who sinned. He apparently chose to sin without an inner tendency to sin. Satan appealed to Christ's uncorrupt physical desires through appetite. It's not a sin to experience hunger but it would have been a sin for Christ to use divine power to satisfy his hunger. Neither Jesus nor Adam were corrupted by original sin, as was the man of Romans 7. As Paul said, it was impossible for the Romans 7 man not to sin. It was possible for Adam to sin even though he was without an inner disposition to sin. I would say the same about Jesus. When Isaiah said He will not fail, he was right. That doesn't mean he could not have failed. Herein is the issue, God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) is not Adam and in particular CANNOT BE TEMPTED WITH EVIL. James 1, 13: for God cannot be tempted with evil I've heard it argued that because Jesus was also known as the 2nd Adam than He had to be like Adam in Adam's peccability. Jesus was the Godman. The Historic Christian teaching has always been God became man without ceasing to be God. Jeremiah 23, 5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness Without getting into the specifics of the Trinity Doctrine I'll get straight to you question. If God said He would not fail, this makes impossible the possibility of failure. Isaiah 42,1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law Ironically there are about as many Scriptures that affirm the eternalness of God as there are Scripture which affirm the impossibility of Christ's failure. I would like you do something for me - apply the hypothetical situation of God taking a tour of the universe and while doing so gets to close to a star that suddenly goes supernova - thereby annihilating God Almighty. Before you scoff at this exercise please look at the following texts. Deut 32, 40.....Job 36, 26......Psalm 48, 14.....Psalm 102, 12....Isaiah 40, 28.....Psalm 90, 2.....Exodus 15, 18. that's only 7 of the nearly 80 Scriptures that say it's impossible for God to cease to exist or go against His own nature. Use my provided hypothetical or come up with one of your own whereas the the end result could be that God is not eternal. Some of the low brow ideas I've heard is what would happen if God created a rock so heavy He couldn't move it. I'd like your answer to this prior to my moving forward. Quote
Hanseng Posted June 2, 2023 Posted June 2, 2023 Gustave, While this is interesting speculation, whether Jesus could or could not sin, I'm not sure of what value that discussion is. Granted, I initiated it. We can praise god that jesus died as a sinless sacrifice for our sin. The problem is that the texts you use as proof that Jesus could not sin are not that; consequently, to refute each one, when they are more or less irrelevant to the real issue is not something I want to do. While you want to apply OT texts and NT ones to the issue, the main passages that deal with this issue are the ones that deal with Christ's temptation in the wilderness. Also, his likeness to Adam is quite relevant. If Jesus could not have sinned, then he could not have been tempted, yet Scripture says he was tempted in all points like as we are. Adam was a man with no history of sin, no propensity to sin, no inner inclination to sin; nevertheless, he sinned. Jesus was like Adam except that he did not sin. If Jesus could not have sinned, he was not a real man. He was not like sinless Adam and He was not like you and me. phkrause 1 Quote
Hanseng Posted June 2, 2023 Posted June 2, 2023 Correction: We can praise God that Jesus died as a sinless sacrifice.... phkrause 1 Quote
Hanseng Posted June 2, 2023 Posted June 2, 2023 Gustave, Part of the problem is that you are trying to interpret NT events in the light of OT prophecy. The better approach is to interpret the prophecies in light of their fulfillment. OT prophecy does not always play out in the way we expect. Israel for instance. There are some passages which make it sound like Israel could never fail. Their salvation was assured. Certainly the Jews never expected that the definition of "Israel" would come to exclude them and include the Gentiles. Salvation was no longer based on laws and heritage. It became a matter of faith and grace. OT prophecy, typology, symbolism must be understood in the light of their NT fulfillment. Messianic passages in the OT should be understood in the light of the NT revelations on the Incarnation and victorious life of Christ. To destroy the humanity of Christ based on what we think the OT said is a mistake. You make too much of this matter, as if God would have ceased to exist had Jesus sinned. Humanity might have ceased to exist, not God phkrause 1 Quote
Gustave Posted June 2, 2023 Posted June 2, 2023 Quote Exactly, Jesus being tempted "BY" or "OF" the Devil in Matthew 4 fulfills the OT prophecies that there would be no sin or otherwise failure in Christ. This is no different than the OT prophecy of Micah 5, 2 saying that Christ would be born in Bethlehem and the NT affirming that Jesus was indeed born in Bethlehem. Your position defaults into a theological rubric whereas there would have been a possibility that Christ "could have been born" by the Oracle of Delphi in Pythia. The fact is that had Jesus not been born in Bethlehem He wouldn't have been the Christ in the 1st place. No different than if Jesus would have sinned it would have only indicated that he wasn't the Christ in the 1st place. Jesus repeatedly said that ALL the prophecies about Him HAD TO BE FULFILLED. There are more prophecies and explicit statements made about Christ's impeccability then ANY OTHER THING - therefore absolute salvation was emphasized more than any other thing said about the Christ. I'm sorry but this looks to me like some SDA's will go to outlandish lengths to protect Ellen White's status as a real prophet even at the cost of repudiating Sacred Scripture. Just for the record Israel WASN'T / ISN'T "God Almighty". Salvation was a work of and by God. Quote
Gustave Posted June 2, 2023 Posted June 2, 2023 Quote Gustave, Part of the problem is that you are trying to interpret NT events in the light of OT prophecy. The better approach is to interpret the prophecies in light of their fulfillment. Exactly, Jesus being tempted "BY" or "OF" the Devil in Matthew 4 fulfills the OT prophecies that there would be no sin or otherwise failure in Christ. This is no different than the OT prophecy of Micah 5, 2 saying that Christ would be born in Bethlehem and the NT affirming that Jesus was indeed born in Bethlehem. Your position defaults into a theological rubric whereas there would have been a possibility that Christ "could have been born" by the Oracle of Delphi in Pythia. The fact is that had Jesus not been born in Bethlehem He wouldn't have been the Christ in the 1st place. No different than if Jesus would have sinned it would have only indicated that he wasn't the Christ in the 1st place. Jesus repeatedly said that ALL the prophecies about Him HAD TO BE FULFILLED. There are more prophecies and explicit statements made about Christ's impeccability then ANY OTHER THING - therefore absolute salvation was emphasized more than any other thing said about the Christ. I'm sorry but this looks to me like some SDA's will go to outlandish lengths to protect Ellen White's status as a real prophet even at the cost of repudiating Sacred Scripture. Just for the record Israel WASN'T / ISN'T "God Almighty". Salvation was a work of and by God. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.