At the Creation

[8thdaypriest]

Were THREE divine beings involved in the creation? 

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (NKJ)

At the creation, "God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'"  (Gen 1:26 NKJ)  Plural words to be sure.  But the words do NOT tell us that there were THREE divine beings involved in the creation, only that more than one divine being was making man. 

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Hebrews 1:8-12   But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions1." 10 And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."

The One speaking never calls "the Son" "My God", but He does call the Son - "God".

    Colossians 1:15-17   “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.  All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”

    I Corinthians 8:6  “yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”

    Hebrews 1:1-2 “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.”

God the Father is credited with the creation.  All created life proceeds from God the Father.  The Father acted THROUGH His Son, whom He calls "God".  

    Revelation 4:9-11 “Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: ‘You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.’”

      

I would like to discuss those texts which describe The Holy Spirit as an active THIRD AGENT in the creation.   Are there any such texts?

 

 

[JoeMo]

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I would like to discuss those texts which describe The Holy Spirit as an active THIRD AGENT in the creation.   Are there any such texts?

The closest thing I could find was Genesis 1:1, where it says the Spirit hovered over the waters. Nothing about the Spirit taking an active role in creation.  I'm not trying to sound sacrilegious but clouds can hover as well., 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel:  The following websites contain Biblical texts that some believe indicate that the Holy Spirit had a role in creating the Earth.  Of course there is duplication and not every alleged text is a solid as is others.  But, this listing simply gives you some texts to consider and to discuss.

Gregory Matthews

 

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Spirit~s-Role-In-Creation

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Holy-Spirit-In-Creation

https://answersingenesis.org/answers/biblical-authority-devotional/how-was-the-holy-spirit-involved-in-creation/

https://creationtoday.org/the-holy-spirit-in-creation/

*********************

But the strongest statement about the Holy Spirit being involved in the creation comes from Ps. 104:30.

You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the ground. (NASB) Psalm 104:30

**********************

Third, the Holy Spirit was the agent of creation. In the account of creation at the very beginning of the Bible, we are told: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters” (Gen. 1:1-2). The Hebrew word translated as “Spirit” here is ruach, which also can mean “breath.” The ruach elohim, “the Breath of the Almighty,” is the agent in creation. It is not the immateriality of the Spirit that is in view here, but rather His power and energy; the picture is of God’s energy breathing out creation, as it were, speaking the worlds into existence, putting the stars into space. Thus, when we read Isaiah 40:26 and the question is asked, “Who created these?” we have the answer in Genesis 1:2—the Spirit is the irresistible power by which God accomplishes His purpose.

 

 

 

http://www.churchsociety.org/issues_new/doctrine/heads/spirit/iss_doctrine_heads_spirit_creation.asp

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Third, the Holy Spirit was the agent of creation.

To me, none of the scriptural references even vaguely imply that the HS is a Person; the commentators simply infer this.  The verses quoted indicate that it is the breath or power of God that created the universe.  God's power hovered over the waters, just like a hurricane's power hovers over the water.

[Gregory Matthews]

The thrust of the passages, as I listed them was to suggest the activity of the Holy Spirit in Creation as requested by 8th Day Priest.

I would not argue with your point that they do not suggest a person.

Again, I remind your of  my distinction between a person and a personal being.

 

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

But the strongest statement about the Holy Spirit being involved in the creation comes from Ps. 104:30.

You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the ground. (NASB) Psalm 104:30

**********************

Third, the Holy Spirit was the agent of creation. In the account of creation at the very beginning of the Bible, we are told: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters” (Gen. 1:1-2). 

"Your" and "of" are possessive terms.  "Your Spirit" is a spirit belonging to "You" (as in "your arm" or coming from "You" (as in your voice).     The "Spirit OF God" has it's source in God, or comes from God.   Neither text reads as - God the Spirit hovered over the waters.   The question remains.  Who is "You", in the passage ?   Some would say "You" is God (the Trinity), but the passage can more clearly be understood as God the Father sending forth His life giving Spirit. 

Ones interpretation of the passages depends upon ones already established view.   

[To set the record straight, and I can see now that I  was not clear, all of the above was a quotation from another Internet source--GM.]

[8thdaypriest]

I do not see THREE divine personal beings at work in the creation.   I do see more than ONE personal being, because "God" said, "Let us make man in our image."   

We know from several NT passages that God created all things THROUGH His Son.   We could easily infer that God the Father said to His divine Son, "Let us make man in our image."  

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel, you asked for texts, and  I provided you with some texts that others believe respond to your question.

I am not taking a position on those texts. although I probably would agree with some and  might not agree with others.  I simply wanted to respond to your question by providing some texts that might be worthy of further study.

As I said in a statement that I placed in your post;  None of the cited passage was what I was saying.  All of it was a quote from another source.  I now realize that I was not clear on that point when I posted.   I can understand why you thought that part of it was my words.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Rachel, you asked for texts, and  I provided you with some texts that others believe respond to your question.

I am not taking a position on those texts. although I probably would agree with some and  might not agree with others.  I simply wanted to respond to your question by providing some texts that might be worthy of further study.

As I said in a statement that I placed in your post;  None of the cited passage was what I was saying.  All of it was a quote from another source.  I now realize that I was not clear on that point when I posted.   I can understand why you thought that part of it was my words.

 

 

Thanks Gregory.  I knew it was not "your words".  I wasn't posting back at you.  I was posting about the quoted texts.  

[LifeHiscost]

On 7/20/2018 at 8:40 AM, JoeMo said:

To me, none of the scriptural references even vaguely imply that the HS is a Person; the commentators simply infer this.  The verses quoted indicate that it is the breath or power of God that created the universe.  God's power hovered over the waters, just like a hurricane's power hovers over the water.

Does this give any hint?

16 “For these things I weep; My eye, my eye overflows with water; Because the comforter, who should restore my life   Lamentations 1

God is Love!~Jesus saves!   

[JoeMo]

13 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

Does this give any hint?

Actually, no.  Sorry!

[LifeHiscost]

10 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Actually, no.  Sorry!

¹⁸ And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. ¹⁹ Go ^[c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰ teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” ^[d]Amen.,,Matthew 28

What reason would there be for giving this directive for a lessor power to something/Someone less than a Person?

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

"baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19).   Some older manuscripts simply say "baptizing them in My Name" (or something akin to that)  In every instance of the Acts of the Apostles where people were baptized, they were baptized in the name of Jesus; nowhere does it say they were baptized in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. See Acts 2:38, 8:12, 8:16, 10:48, and 19:5

[phkrause]

Here's an interesting article on this subject:

So What?

3 = 1 is not bad math.

BY GERALD A. KLINGBEIL

https://www.adventistreview.org/1807-26

[JoeMo]

7 hours ago, phkrause said:

Here's an interesting article on this subject:

Interesting article with some great insight.  But no explicit "proof" of a trinity.  While the HS is an integral part of God, I don't think it is necessary to consider it a Person.  But I won't pretend to understand the nature of the Godhead.

[thx4mercy]

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I don't think it is necessary to consider it a Person. 

In the middle of John 16 there is a series of verses where Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit and there is about 7 places where Jesus uses the word "he" or "him" -- "I will send him" -- "when he is come" -- "he will reprove" -- "he will guide you" etc.  Sounds like a person.

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

This comment highlights one of the areas where the anti-Trinity arguments fall through. There are many ways that Scripture tells us/warns us that we cannot know God; He is beyond finding out. What makes anyone think they can be so sure that the father or the Son are "persons" as if they know the very substance of God. NONE of the Three are "Persons."

"Persons" - meaning - human persons?    

I think that's why Gregory likes to call them "personal beings".  

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

What makes anyone think they can be so sure that the father or the Son are "persons" as if they know the very substance of God. NONE of the Three are "Persons."

Okay.  Does the term "Beings" rather than "Persons better fit your mental construct of God?  I'm okay with "Beings".

[JoeMo]

28 minutes ago, thx4mercy said:

In the middle of John 16 there is a series of verses where Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit and there is about 7 places where Jesus uses the word "he" or "him" -- "I will send him" -- "when he is come" -- "he will reprove" -- "he will guide you" etc.  Sounds like a person.

In most of those places, it's the translator that uses the term "he".  In the Greek, the word can just as easily be translated as "it".

[8thdaypriest]

24 minutes ago, thx4mercy said:

In the middle of John 16 there is a series of verses where Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit and there is about 7 places where Jesus uses the word "he" or "him" -- "I will send him" -- "when he is come" -- "he will reprove" -- "he will guide you" etc.  Sounds like a person.

Let's look at that passage.

        John 14:16-18 “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”

 “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col. 1:27). 

 “I in you” (John 14:20).
        “Abide in Me, and I in you” (John 15:4).
            “If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness” (Rom 8:10).
            “You seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you (2Co 13:3).
        “Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? (2Co 13:5)
Actually BOTH Christ and His Father come into our hearts.  
            “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him” (John 14:23).

I don't see a third divine being in all those verses.  

Conclusion: I believe that Jesus is here speaking of His future glorified spirit self. 
    Jesus spoke of His future glorified self in third person, on more than one occasion. 
    (Ref: Mat. 16:27, 25:31; Mk 8:38, 9:31;  Lk 9:26, Lk 18:8;  Jn 6:62.)  

“The last Adam has been made a life-giving Spirit” (1Cor 15:45). 
            The “last Adam” was/is Jesus.  He has become a life-giving Spirit.
            The Helper is Jesus - as Spirit.  

    

[JoeMo]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

IF one is going to apply an "it" to one; they have to do it to all Three. And that just doesn't compute.

IMHO, there is plenty of explicit evidence in scripture that the Father and Son are actual Beings.  That's why it would be fair to give them a gender. Furthermore, since Jesus came as a male, the term "He" makes sense.  OYOH, I see little or no explicit scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit is a Being, much less that it has a gender.  There apre plenty of examples in scripture of people praying to or worshipping the Father and Jesus; and not one example of anyone praying to or worshipping the HS.  People pray for the Spirit and in the Spirit; but never to the Spirit.  Could it be because there was not a Being there to pray to?

[JoeMo]

6 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

He [or It] will not speak on His own authority, '" Christ said, "'but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come

A telephone receiver or computer terminal doesn't speak on its own authority either; but it certainly repeats back to me what it "hears" or "receives". (Not trying to be blasphemous here)

[8thdaypriest]

19 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

In my understanding; there is a place for calling them a Divine person; but NOT a human person. I mean; it's really hard to deny that all three do have Personality.

Not hard at all.  Only TWO - Father and Son.  

"And truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ." (1John 1:3).

We “abide in the Son and in the Father” (1John 2:24).

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (John 14:23 NKJ)

Those who believe that God is THREE, always have to add - "through the Holy Spirit" to these verses.  But it's NOT THERE.  

All “the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in the Father and the Son” (Col. 2:2-3). 

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (1Cor.1:3).  [Thirteen times - the Holy Spirit as a THIRD - is not mentioned.]

“I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me” (John 6:38).  [Two wills - Two Beings]  And who sent Christ?  Answer:  His Father.

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

10 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Thats because you are only selecting texts that can be made to appear in support of your doctrine. But there are plenty of indications in Scripture that would say the opposite of what this post says about The Holy Spirit.

Christ called the Holy Spirit the "'Spirit of truth'" (John 14:17; John 15:26; John 16:13). The presenceHis functions include bringing "'to your remembrance all things that I said to you'" (John14:26) and guiding "'you into all truth'" (John 16:13). His message testifies to Jesus Christ (John 15:26). "'He will not speak on His own authority, '" Christ said, "'but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you'" (John 16:13-14).

The presence of "the Spirit OF Christ" gives miraculous witness of Christ.  Yes.  Doesn't mean a THIRD divine being is testifying.  Can more easily mean that Christ glorified (now omnipresent) is giving witness of truth, and bringing to our remembrance all the things that He said, and guiding us.  

Christ did not "speak on His own authority" - so Christ with us and in us (as Spirit) would not either.   The Son of God STILL serves His Father, who is also "His God"  (Rev 1:6, Rev. 3:12). 

Jesus said, "For I have not spoken from my own authority, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49)

 John 16:14-15  "He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.  All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." (John 16:15)

The Helper to come would take from the Father, and pass it on to the disciples.   But isn't that exactly what Jesus did?  

"There is ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN God and man - the man Jesus Christ."  (2Tim. 2:5)  When you insert the HS as a THIRD divine being, you have inserted "God" between Christ and man. 

[8thdaypriest]

18 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

A telephone receiver or computer terminal doesn't speak on its own authority either; but it certainly repeats back to me what it "hears" or "receives". (Not trying to be blasphemous here)

How interesting.  Think of Jesus, trying to describe a cell-phone to 12 Galilean fishermen.  Much easier just to say, "I will be with you always."