At the Creation

[8thdaypriest]

What follows is Rachel's opinion concerning the passages quoted.

John 17:21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me." (NKJ)

Christ prayed that all believers could "be one" - like - He and the Father are one.   

The believers are separate individual human beings.   Just like Jesus and His Father are individual separate divine beings. 

But Jesus wants the believers to be "one" - each acting for the benefit of the others.   Jesus knows this is possible only as the  Spirit of His Father dwells "in them" -  just as He dwelt IN Jesus.   

"You Father are in Me".    

"The Father who dwells in Me, does the works"  (John 14:10).  

The human beings (plural) are not all one (human) being.   And neither are the Father and His Son one (divine) Being, or "one substance" that is shared by two or three divine persons.  

HOW does the Father dwell "in" us?   And HOW does Jesus dwell "in" us?   It is a mystery.  

Colossians 1:27 "To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." 

I believe it is a shared mind - the mind of God our Father - but it is more.  It is more than just thoughts, because that "Spirit within" can also heal and empower.   The shared mind can give visions or dreams, and it can also give new language abilities.  

Gustave,   I do not believe it is a "shared substance".  I believe it is a shared mind.   This allowed Jesus to "know" the mind of God, and the will of God.  

In your view, only divine beings share the divine substance.  In my view we are invited to share in (to become partakers of) the divine mind.  

 

 

[Gustave]

15 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

What follows is Rachel's opinion concerning the passages quoted.

John 17:21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me." (NKJ)

Christ prayed that all believers could "be one" - like - He and the Father are one.   

The believers are separate individual human beings.   Just like Jesus and His Father are individual separate divine beings. 

But Jesus wants the believers to be "one" - each acting for the benefit of the others.   Jesus knows this is possible only as the  Spirit of His Father dwells "in them" -  just as He dwelt IN Jesus.   

"You Father are in Me".    

"The Father who dwells in Me, does the works"  (John 14:10).  

The human beings (plural) are not all one (human) being.   And neither are the Father and His Son one (divine) Being, or "one substance" that is shared by two or three divine persons.  

HOW does the Father dwell "in" us?   And HOW does Jesus dwell "in" us?   It is a mystery.  

Colossians 1:27 "To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." 

I believe it is a shared mind - the mind of God our Father - but it is more.  It is more than just thoughts, because that "Spirit within" can also heal and empower.   The shared mind can give visions or dreams, and it can also give new language abilities.  

Gustave,   I do not believe it is a "shared substance".  I believe it is a shared mind.   This allowed Jesus to "know" the mind of God, and the will of God.  

In your view, only divine beings share the divine substance.  In my view we are invited to share in (to become partakers of) the divine mind.  

 

 

With all due respect what you're saying is that Jesus isn't God in the sense that the Father is God.

COULD there be any reason whatsoever in which any hypothetical situation resulted in God the Father being killed and permanently ceasing to exist? Could you answer that for me? 

IF you say no - that there isn't any possibility that God,  due to any reason, would die and cease to exist eternally please say why you believe it's impossible. 

[JoeMo]

On 8/1/2018 at 3:02 PM, The Wanderer said:

there is no injunction in scripture to tell people that The Holy Spirit is "not real"

I won't pretend to speak for Rachel, but I don't think anyone has said the HS is "not real".  In my opinion, the HS is VERY real; and an integral part of God.  God might not even be God without it.  The HS (to me) is God's ability to be everywhere at once; know everything, and exert His power and influence anywhere in the universe instantaneously without being limited by the speed of light.  The HS transmits God's commands and prophecies to individuals and nations, and collects our prayers and presents them to the Father and Son.  But it is a Power - a Force; not a Person.  It is beyond our understanding.

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I won't pretend to speak for Rachel, but I don't think anyone has said the HS is "not real".  In my opinion, the HS is VERY real; and an integral part of God.  God might not even be God without it.  The HS (to me) is God's ability to be everywhere at once; know everything, and exert His power and influence anywhere in the universe instantaneously without being limited by the speed of light.  The HS transmits God's commands and prophecies to individuals and nations, and collects our prayers and presents them to the Father and Son.  But it is a Power - a Force; not a Person.  It is beyond our understanding.

From what I could tell this is spot-on to what Ellen White believed. Ellen had no issue in calling the Holy Spirit a "Person" OR even claiming the Holy Spirit had a "Personality" with the caveat that the Personality was God or Christ and that "IT" was the power or influence of God or Christ. 

As I've said in a couple other places Ellen White helped D.M. Canright write his articles on 'The Personality of God' AND 'The Holy Spirit'. The Holy Spirit articles that Ellen helped write can be found below.

"The Holy Spirit not a person, but an influence proceeding from God"

Here is a snippit: NOTICE in Ellen's reasoning that counting the Spirit of The Father "as a person" equates to TWO PERSONS & adding the Spirit of the Son = 4 Person's, etc.

All trinitarian creeds make the Holy Ghost a 'person, equal in Substance, power, eternity; and glory with the Father and Son. Thus they claim three' persons in the trinity, each one equal with both the others. If this be so, then the Holy Spirit is just as truly an, individual intelligent person as is the Father or the Son. But this we cannot believe. The Holy Spirit is not a person. In all our prayers we naturally conceive of, God as a person, and of the Son as a person; but who ever conceived of the Holy Ghost as 'being a person, standing there beside the Father and equal with him ? Such a conception never enters any one's mind. If you say that it does, we ask of What form is the' Holy Ghost ? IS it like the Father and Son, in the form of a man ? Who can tell ?  Again, the Father himself is said to be a spirit. Are there, then, two spirits, both divine, both God, both equal to each other, both alike ? Then how is one different from the other ? God is said to be a spirit ; and it is everywhere declared that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God. IS it then the spirit of a spirit What kind of spirit would that be? Again, "God is a spirit." John. 4:24. Now if the Holy Ghost is a distinct person from the Father, here are two spirits. That the pre-existent Word, the Son, is another person, our opponents contend ; and that he 'has a spirit they will not deny. Here, then, are three spirits—the, son is a spirit, and the Holy Ghost is a spirit, and both 'equal in substance and' power. Well, now `„the Son- has 'a spirit, for ” God has sent forth 'the Spirit 'of his Son into our hearts 'crying, Abba, Father." Gal. 4 :6. Again, "If' any man has man have not 'the Spirit of Christ he is none of his, Rom 8 : 9. This makes four spirits. God also ' has a spirit. " The Spirit of God." Gen. 1 : 2. And if the Holy Ghost be equal to the other two persons, then it must have a spirit too. Here are six spirits, and according to our trinitarian brethren, six persons. How absurd

http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/ST/ST18780725-V04-28.pdf

 

&

The conclusion of the matter: http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/ST/ST18780808-V04-30.pdf

Thus God was understood to be a hominid flesh God with all the members and parts of a perfect man.

Thus Michael the archangel was understood to be the Son of God, also in form of a hominid with all the members and parts of a perfect man. 

These two Beings were understood to have bodies and just as SDA's view that there isn't a spiritual soul inside of man that exists consciously outside the body as a separate person the same "appears" ( I'm saying this for Gregory's sake as I can't be absolutely certain ) to be the way that Ellen viewed the Holy Spirit. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I won't pretend to speak for Rachel, but I don't think anyone has said the HS is "not real".  In my opinion, the HS is VERY real; and an integral part of God.  God might not even be God without it.  The HS (to me) is God's ability to be everywhere at once; know everything, and exert His power and influence anywhere in the universe instantaneously without being limited by the speed of light.  The HS transmits God's commands and prophecies to individuals and nations, and collects our prayers and presents them to the Father and Son.  But it is a Power - a Force; not a Person.  It is beyond our understanding.

Peter wrote:  "His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2Pe 1:4 NKJ)

God the Father IS divine, and we "partake of" HIS divinity.  When we do - we become "one" with God the Father and with His Son.   "We abide in the Son and in the Father" (2John 1:9).  We must consent and ask for this "sharing" of HIS divinity. 

It is amazing that God our Father invites human beings to partake of HIS divinity.   I believe the "holy Spirit" GIFT is this divinity of God, which HE shares with us.   When we are "baptized with the holy Spirit", we are "filled with" the Spirit, and "partake of the divine" . 

1 John 4:13 "By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." 

"His Spirit" is His own divine nature - His divinity.  

We experience HIM.  We "hear" HIM, in our mind.  We "feel" HIS love.   We may "feel" HIS divinity flowing through us when someone is healed.  We experience just the right words coming out of our mouth at just the right moment.  

It is impossible to separate "God" from His divinity.  Divine is what He is.  Yes - the possessive "His" is used - "His divine nature",  but how can you cannot separate "His nature" from "Him" any more than you can separate "my" humanity from "me".  

Which brings us to the incarnation.  HOW did the Son of God - a divine being - become human.  That one - is more a mystery to me, than the nature of the Holy Spirit.  

[8thdaypriest]

I have grown - in my understanding - as I have posted here.  For that I am thankful to CA and posters, and to HIM.  

IMHO

Trinitarians and SDAs believe that the THIRD divine being - called "the Holy Spirit" comes to us representing Christ - or "as Christ".   In this way, Christ Himself is "with us" and "in us".  

I believe the Father - by His own Spirit - comes to us "as Christ".   Jesus came to earth representing His Father.   "If you have seen Me, you HAVE SEEN the Father."  

The Father now comes representing His Son - or "as" His Son.   Galatians 4:6  "God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying,  'Abba! Father!'"

In this way, BOTH Father and Son are "with us" and "in us".  

This does NOT require the existence of a THIRD divine being.  God the Father - who is omnipresent - can come "as" His Son, to glorify and witness of His Son, just as Christ came "as" His Father - so that men might "see" Him.  

This representation of His Son, or personation of His Son ("personate" - the word Mrs White used) - is "the Comforter" which the Father sent, through Christ, to be "with" believers, and "in" believers.  Can we call this personation "He" ?  I believe so.   If the personation is perfect - which it is - then we experience Christ - a person - a "He".   

We ALSO experience the Father.  "He" (the Father) is the one personating His Son.   

So we experience THEM - both the Father and His Son.  And is this not what Jesus said?

John 14:23  Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." 

I keep trying to explain this more understandably - what I believe.  Hope I'm improving.  

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, Gustave said:

Here are six spirits, and according to our trinitarian brethren, six persons. How absurd

He forgot these seven other spirits of God.

"“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God ..."  Does that make 13?  I'm confused.

[Gustave]

Just now, JoeMo said:

He forgot these seven other spirits of God.

"“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God ..."  Does that make 13?  I'm confused.

LOL! I think he meant IF God's Spirit was also a person  that would add up to two Person's for the Father....

[8thdaypriest]

9 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

He forgot these seven other spirits of God.

"“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God ..."  Does that make 13?  I'm confused.

I believe the "spirits of God" are "the seven Spirits who are before His throne,"(Rev 1:4 ).  I believe these are 7 powerful angels who go throughout the earth, directing the other angels in the fight.  They bring report back to Jesus, who "holds" them (holds sway over them). 

These things says He who holds the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars:" Rev 3:1   He - Christ - directs those angels.  He is "commander of the LORD's hosts".  

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire." 

[JoeMo]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe the "spirits of God" are "the seven Spirits who are before His throne,"(Rev 1:4 ).  I believe these are 7 powerful angels who go throughout the earth, directing the other angels in the fight.  They bring report back to Jesus, who "holds" them (holds sway over them). 

These things says He who holds the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars:" Rev 3:1   He - Christ - directs those angels.  He is "commander of the LORD's hosts".  

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire." 

I was just messing. The more I get into it, I think I am sure that God is God; and I am not.  He can be however He wants to be.  If Jesus tells me that I am mistaken about a "twinity", I'll firmly believe whatever He tells me.

[8thdaypriest]

1 minute ago, JoeMo said:

I was just messing. The more I get into it, I think I am sure that God is God; and I am not.  He can be however He wants to be.  If Jesus tells me that I am mistaken about a "twinity", I'll firmly believe whatever He tells me.

Joe, that's a given.  Of course - all of us, if told by the LORD something different than what we believed for years, will instantly receive the new understanding.  

But when you say this - so often - it sounds like you are not at all comfortable or firm in your belief.  

[JoeMo]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

it sounds like you are not at all comfortable or firm in your belief.

I am plenty comfortable and firm with my belief. But it is faith, not knowledge.  IMHO, faith always involves a measure of doubt.  When faith becomes fact through explicit evidence, there is no more room for doubt.  I do NOT accept the Personage of the HS; but I used to.  Before, I was a Trinitarian; but my mind was open to others' theories.  Before, I was a Catholic, now I'm not.  My faith has evolved over the years, hasn't yours.

The nature of God is beyond my or your understanding.  So I don't KNOW that God is not a Trinity; but I BELIEVE He/They are not.

Do you pray separately to the Father and Jesus, or do you just pray to the Father?  I pray ("talk") to both of them separately sometimes. It depends what I'm praying about.

I used to pray to the HS, but I don't do that any more. I pray for the spirit and in the spirit, but not to the spirit.

[8thdaypriest]

18 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John  17:3).  

Jesus was speaking TO His Father. 

"Father, the hour has come.  Glorify Your Son, that your Son also may glorify You."  

Eternal life is to "know" the Father -  who sent Jesus.   Jesus came that we might "know Him".  

Over and over - 17 times - Jesus said that His Father "sent" Him.   NOT ONCE did Jesus say that the Holy Spirit sent Him.  

1 John 4:14 “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.”

    John 5:30  [Christ] “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:23, John 5:37).

    John 5:37 [Christ] “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 8:16).    

    John 6:39 [Christ] “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”

    John 6:44 [Christ] “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    John 6:57 [Christ] “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.”

    John 8:16 [Christ] “And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.”

    John 8:29 [Christ] “And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”

    John 8:42 “Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.’”

    John 10:36 [Christ] “Do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’”

John 12:49 “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

    John 17:21 [Jesus last prayer to His Father] “ ... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.”

John 17:25 “O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.”

John 20:21 “So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave, you present yourself as an expert on SDA belief and the writings of Ellen G.  White.  In actual fact, your misrepresent such.  There is room for debate within Adventism on many issues related to the development of the SDA denomination.   You are not wrong   in everything that you post.  But, your posts present you as being ignorant of much of the historical and theological studies that have been made of our developmental period.  You reach  conclusions that more accurately represent your bias and what you want to read into the material that you cite, rather than what it actually says.

[Gustave]

13 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gustave, you present yourself as an expert on SDA belief and the writings of Ellen G.  White.  In actual fact, your misrepresent such.  There is room for debate within Adventism on many issues related to the development of the SDA denomination.   You are not wrong   in everything that you post.  But, your posts present you as being ignorant of much of the historical and theological studies that have been made of our developmental period.  You reach  conclusions that more accurately represent your bias and what you want to read into the material that you cite, rather than what it actually says.

I've not presented myself as an expert on SDA belief by any means - what I've done is present what I've read in the archives. 

In the case of the Personality of God it started out with something years ago that I read from Ellen White, here it is:

"The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one. {8T 269.4}

Those two sentences struck every SDA I asked as being odd ( as in they didn't know what it meant ). Reason being is because Personality is generally understood to be: 

 

Quote

the quality or state of being a person

b : personal existence

2 a : the condition or fact of relating to a particular person; specifically : the condition of referring directly to or being aimed disparagingly or hostilely at an individual

b : an offensively personal remark

• angrily resorted to personalities

3 a : the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual or a nation or group; especially : the totality of an individual's behavioral and emotional characteristics

b : a set of distinctive traits and characteristics

• the energetic personality of the city

4 a : distinction or excellence of personal and social traits; also : a person having such quality

b : a person of importance, prominence, renown, or notoriety

• a TV personality
•  

I then asked myself did Ellen White think people thought that the unity between Jesus and His disciples destroyed the state or quality of Jesus or the disciples being actual persons? Did Ellen think people thought the unity jeopardized the personal existence of Jesus or the disciples? 

 

I thought to myself it couldn't be an individuals emotional characteristics or distinctive -WHICH is the first thing I thought she meant and everyone else I asked about it - that clearly WASN'T it.

 

I thought that Ellen certainly DIDN'T mean that people thought that  Jesus' association with the disciples could have destroyed Jesus' reputation or renown. Gregory, understand NO ONE I asked ( and I asked many SDA's ) could tell me what this meant.

 

 

So, I did a word search in the General Conference archives and realized that the term "PERSONALITY OF GOD" had a specific theological meaning to Seventh-day Adventists that had been taught with velocity since 1855. James White was adamant about it. It had such an importance to the SDA Education department that prior to making their own books for school they would draw thick black lines through the sections of books that contradicted the PERSONALITY OF GOD Doctrine that kids at their schools were reading. 

 

What I did was download EVERY Review & Herald that had the words "PERSONALITY OF GOD" of in it and built a timeline chronology. The articles that were lengthy I thought held more importance so I read 2 or 3 Review papers AFTER and before those articles to see if people were writing in or discussing the Doctrine - THAT IS HOW I FOUND that Ellen assisted in revising Canright's anti-Trinity articles on both the Personality of God and the Holy Spirit. 

 

 

So, I'm not copying and pasting stuff I post from anti-SDA sites, I've done my own research and frankly I've not seen my points on ANY anti-SDA websites - if you know of any PLEASE let me know as I'd like to see what they are saying. 

 

Peace 

 

 

 

 

I then asked myself did Ellen White think people thought that the unity between Jesus and His disciples destroyed the state or quality of Jesus or the disciples being actual persons? Did Ellen think people thought the unity jeopardized the personal existence of Jesus or the disciples? 

 

I thought to myself it couldn't be an individuals emotional characteristics or distinctive -WHICH is the first thing I thought she meant and everyone else I asked about it - that clearly WASN'T it.

 

I thought that Ellen certainly DIDN'T mean that people thought that  Jesus' association with the disciples could have destroyed Jesus' reputation or renown. Gregory, understand NO ONE I asked ( and I asked many SDA's ) could tell me what this meant.

 

 

So, I did a word search in the General Conference archives and realized that the term "PERSONALITY OF GOD" had a specific theological meaning to Seventh-day Adventists that had been taught with velocity since 1855. James White was adamant about it. It had such an importance to the SDA Education department that prior to making their own books for school they would draw thick black lines through the sections of books that contradicted the PERSONALITY OF GOD Doctrine that kids at their schools were reading. 

 

What I did was download EVERY Review & Herald that had the words "PERSONALITY OF GOD" of in it and built a timeline chronology. The articles that were lengthy I thought held more importance so I read 2 or 3 Review papers AFTER and before those articles to see if people were writing in or discussing the Doctrine - THAT IS HOW I FOUND that Ellen assisted in revising Canright's anti-Trinity articles on both the Personality of God and the Holy Spirit. 

 

 

So, I'm not copying and pasting stuff I post from anti-SDA sites, I've done my own research and frankly I've not seen my points on ANY anti-SDA websites - if you know of any PLEASE let me know as I'd like to see what they are saying. 

 

Peace 

[JoeMo]

WHEW!  Gustave, your are much more of a scholar and academician that I have the energy to be.

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, Gustave said:

"The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one. {8T 269.4}

"but not in person"

I can agree with EGW statement here.   

The Son of God is not "one in person" (not the same person) as God His Father.   Both were wholly divine in nature ("god") - immortal - before the Son incarnated.  Once incarnated into a physical human body and with human nature, the Son was no longer wholly divine (in nature).   He became mortal, and could physically die. 

Before the Son incarnated, He was equal with God His Father.  He was "the express image of His [Father's] person" (Heb 1:3). 

God the Father beget a second divine being - His exact double =  TWO divine personal beings.  

Philippians 2:5 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form," (NRS) 

Hebrews 2:14  "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, "  (NKJ)

He became flesh - in order to DIE- to defeat the devil.  

Hebrews 2:17 "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren"  (NKJ)  "in all things" -  He did not just look like a human being.  He WAS a human being.

 Hebrews 2:18 "He himself suffered when he was tempted" (NIV)

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person,

So "God" is a person.  Not a human "person".  A divine "person" - meaning a divine personal being - singular.  

His Son was exactly like His divine Father.  So the Son was also a divine person - singular.  

I do not see a THIRD divine personal being mentioned in any of the versus listed.  

Hebrews 1:8   But to the Son He [God the Father] says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

God the Father calls Himself "Your God" when speaking TO His Son.  This puts God the Father above Jesus Christ the Son.   TWO divine personal beings.  

The Father SENT His Son.  The Father GAVE His Son.  The Father "anointed" His Son.  The Father has "given" authority and judgment to His Son.  (Jesus said "All authority is given unto Me".)   In every case "God the Father is the giver."  

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

24 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the personality and individuality of each.  {8T 268.1}  

"God" is an individual (singular) divine being, and Jesus Christ is an individual (singular) divine being. 

I agree.  

[8thdaypriest]

28 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

The relation between the Father and the Son, and the personality of both, are made plain in this scripture also:

     "Thus speaketh Jehovah of hosts, saying,
      Behold, the man whose name is the Branch:
      And He shall grow up out of His place;
      And He shall build the temple of Jehovah; . . .
      And He shall bear the glory,
      And shall sit and rule upon His throne;
      And He shall be a priest upon His throne;
      And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both."
                                    Zechariah 6:12, 13, A. R. V.

"Both" is TWO.   I do not see a THIRD divine being here.  

Mrs White's writings - for 45 years, taught only God the Father and Jesus Christ "the Son of the Father".   Her writings then changed (about 1893-4) - to include a "third person of the godhead".  Some say she "grew in her understanding".  Other's say she went beyond Scripture.    

I do know that her writings changed.   There is no other way to put it.   Folks who believe that God is THREE divine beings, quote from her later writings.  Those who believe only in God our Father, and His Son, quote from her earlier writings.  Which is just one reason why I prefer to stick with Scripture ONLY.   

[Gustave]

31 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Unfortunately, this does not come across as "scholarly" or "academic" at all. The reason no one knows what you are talking about is because, you dont either. Your posts are built around and subordinated, all to this one idea you have and want to disparage Adventists over, which among other things, makes your posting quite out of context. Quoting one sentence and layering all your posting around it, makes it out of context, and completely irrelevant to any concrete doctrines and official beliefs of Adventists.All this, coupled with the fact that you are refusing to use scripture for the most part, and it just so happens that scripture is what Adventists have derived their beliefs from. EGW and others have written many things that have nothing to do with official beliefs of the church.

The sentence you quote is taken from a much larger body of work, and its from a section dealing with the nature of God; but NOT the substance. Had you given it the intended (by the author) context, things would be posted much differently than what you are doing:
 

 

 

You misunderstand Wanderer, I asked several SDA's who obviously knew the context far better than I could and they couldn't answer what it meant - Look at it again:

" The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one".

You said: "The sentence you quote is taken from a much larger body of work, and its from a section dealing with the nature of God; but NOT the substance".

The Nature of God IS the Substance of God, the two words are synonymous in that context - - Here: 

"One of the mysteries of the Bible is that it teaches that God is a Trinity.  There is one God, and yet He exists in three persons. This does not mean that God is one and three in the same sense, which is impossible. God is one in respect to substance, or nature, but in three persons".  http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/AAR/AAR19390123-V43-04.pdf

"We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or NATURE entirely simple" CCC

Thus, how could the pre-Incarnate Christ's unity in purpose with the Father (which I agree He had eternally) possibly DESTROY the "NATURE OF GOD" that Christians believe Christ possessed equally with the Father? Unless my scholarship is VERY bad I'm reasonably sure that SDA's today believe ( and teach ) that Jesus, after Incarnation, had TWO Natures with 1 being Devine & 1 being Human. Prior to the Incarnation Christ had the IDENTICAL Nature or Substance that God the Father had along with the same amount of whatever it is. That's what's ONE, the Nature or Substance. Besides WHAT Trinitarian Christian would need instruction to know that the unity of Christ with His disciples did not destroy THE NATURE of either Christ or the disciples??? That's a bizarre thing to say - you have to admit and it CAN'T reconciled with the Trinity Doctrine. 

But what Ellen said can be reconciled with what's below:

"The following arrticles are taken from  the Discipline of the M.1. Church: "Art. 1. There is but one living and true God, everlasting,  without  body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness: the maker and preserver of all things, visible and invisible.  And  in  unity  of this  Godhead, there are three persons of one sub-stance, power, and eternity ;—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Query.  How many personal Gods of one sub- stance does it take, including the person of Christ, to make one God without body or parts ?  Ans. Three. "Art. 2. The Son, who is the Word of the Father, the very and eternal God, of one substance with the Father, took man's nature in the womb of the bless- ed virgin; so that two whole and  perfect natures, that is to say, the Godhead and manhood, were join- ed together in one person, never to be divided,where- of is one Christ, very God and very man, Who truly suffered, was crucified, dead and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men." Query.  As the Godhead and manhood were joined together in one person before Christ wasborn, never to be divided, were they divided in the death of Christ on the cross? "Art. 4. The Holy Ghost, proceeding from the ' Father and the Son, is of one substance, majesty and glory with the Father and the Son, very and eternal God. Query; How can the Holy Ghost proceed from the Father and the Son if it is both the Father and the Son of itself? If it be said that the Spirit of the  Father,  and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is one Spirit, with this we all agree.  But if it be said that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three persons in one person, making in all one God without body or parts, with an idea so inconsistent we cannot agree. The oneness of Christ with the Father may  be plainly seen by any one who will refer to John xvii, 22.  "That they (that believe) may be  one,  even as we are one."  Who could believe that Christ prayed that his  disciples  should  be  one  disciple ? Yet this  would  be no more inconsistent than the idea of some that Christ and his Father are one person. In accordance with the doctrine that three very and eternal Gods are but one God, how may we reconcile Matt. iii, 16, 17.  Jesus was baptized, Spir- it of God descended like a dove, and the  Father's voice heard from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son,&c.  The Father in heaven, the Son on earth, the Spirit of God.deseending from one to the other. Who could ever suppose for a moment that these three were one person without body or parts, unless it was by early training.  See other texts which ap- pear equally absurd, if such doctrine be true.  Matt. xxviii, 18; Acts x, 38.  "How God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost," dec.  First person takes the third person and anoints the second person with a person being at the same time one with himself. http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18570312-V09-19.pdf

 

"That three are one, and one are three, Is an idea that puzzles me; By many a learned sage 'tie said That three are one in the Godhead.  The Father then may be the Son, For both together make but one,. The Son may likewise be the Father, Without the smallest change of either. Yea, and the blessed Spirit be The Father, Son and trinity; This is the creed of Christian folks, Who style themselves  true orthodox, All which against plain commonsense, We must believe or give offense".

 

The reason Christ IS God is because He co-equally possesses the SAME NATURE OR SUBSTANCE that is possessed by The Father & The Holy Spirit. In Ellen's view Christ was ONE with God in the same way that the disciples were ONE with Christ - and because Christ being ONE with the disciples didn't destroy the NATURE ( your meaning of what Ellen said ) of either Christ or the Disciples than Christ being ONE with God didn't destroy the nature (your meaning of what Ellen said) of either Christ or God? 

So tell me Wanderer, what Christian would believe that Christ being ONE in unity, purpose, mind with His disciples might destroy the NATURE (your meaning of what Ellen said) of Christ and His disciples - then to follow it up with that's how God and Christ are one ( Christ being of the same unity, mind, character of God ) and oneness would not destroy the Divine Nature of Christ or God? 

Do me a favor and substitute "Body of flesh with all the organs, members and parts of a perfect man" with PERSONALITY and read Ellen's quote again and tell me which one sounds more natural given what had been in the SDA papers since 1855? 

 

I do appreciate you trying to belittle the time I've spent on this subject and poke fun at my scholarship - keep it coming man! I'll gladly take every ounce you've got. 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

But WHY would you - a Catholic - CARE about what the SDA prophet said?  

I think you are just trying to discredit the SDA church, by discrediting Ellen White, and those who were influenced by her ministry.

This - for you - has nothing to do with your personal search into the nature of God.  

Just my opinion, based upon what I've read so far.  

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

But WHY would you - a Catholic - CARE about what the SDA prophet said?  

I think you are just trying to discredit the SDA church, by discrediting Ellen White, and those who were influenced by her ministry.

This - for you - has nothing to do with your personal search into the nature of God.  

Just my opinion, based upon what I've read so far.  

The SDA Church was built by anti-Trinitarians on their vitriol of the Catholic Church - which they say contaminated the Protestant Churches through unbiblical doctrines ( such as the Trinity, going to Church on Sunday, etc. ).

After William Miller admitted his error in claiming he had figured out the timing of the 2nd Coming of Christ he disbanded the Millerites - leaving ONLY the folks who didn't have a Church to return to ( which were anti-Trinitarian ). These Adventists (which were left) quickly started to squabble over what Doctrines were important to have & started creating "distinctive Doctrines" which caused the group of anti-Trinitarians to fracture into sub groups or cells. The group that advocated Spirit of Prophecy became known as SDA's. 

The 1st main issue or problem within the Christian Church after the Council of Jerusalem involved Christ - was Jesus really God, etc. 

A Council was held and the Christian Church declared that Jesus really was God - God being a spiritual Substance co-equally owned by the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. 

This the Adventists DIDN'T like because they claimed that the Trinity Doctrine DESTROYED the Personality of God -  because the early SDA's were Anthropomorphites .

"The idea that an anthropomorphic conception of God is a hangover from a crude and savage religion is God-dishonoring. It strikes at the crowning act of creation — man, made in the image of God". http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/WM/WM19310501-V40-05.pdf

In other words there was NOT ONE SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE that was God - Only a Flesh hominid God, God was a real "person" that had a "Personality" a body of flesh with bones, organs, members and parts exactly like a perfect man. The new view of God has changed somewhat in the modern SDA Church and if the Trinity symposium Gregory posted a while back is representative of SDA belief the current view is that 3 Persons who are God are one in the same way a husband and wife become one - they share a common goal, view, agree with each other, etc. This "trio", prior to the creation event, thought the best way to communicate with primitive man was to adopt different roles with one member of the trio becoming The Father, one member becoming the Son and the final member becoming the Holy Spirit. 

This is a radical departure from historic Christianity - I'm only illustrating it for discussion purposes. 

I do accept the historic position of the Christian Church on the Trinity but I'm open to looking at other views on it as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 7/20/2018 at 7:54 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Rachel:  The following websites contain Biblical texts that some believe indicate that the Holy Spirit had a role in creating the Earth.  Of course there is duplication and not every alleged text is a solid as is others.  But, this listing simply gives you some texts to consider and to discuss.

Gregory Matthews

 

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Spirit~s-Role-In-Creation

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Holy-Spirit-In-Creation

https://answersingenesis.org/answers/biblical-authority-devotional/how-was-the-holy-spirit-involved-in-creation/

https://creationtoday.org/the-holy-spirit-in-creation/

*********************

But the strongest statement about the Holy Spirit being involved in the creation comes from Ps. 104:30.

You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the ground. (NASB) Psalm 104:30

**********************

Third, the Holy Spirit was the agent of creation. In the account of creation at the very beginning of the Bible, we are told: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters” (Gen. 1:1-2). The Hebrew word translated as “Spirit” here is ruach, which also can mean “breath.” The ruach elohim, “the Breath of the Almighty,” is the agent in creation. It is not the immateriality of the Spirit that is in view here, but rather His power and energy; the picture is of God’s energy breathing out creation, as it were, speaking the worlds into existence, putting the stars into space. Thus, when we read Isaiah 40:26 and the question is asked, “Who created these?” we have the answer in Genesis 1:2—the Spirit is the irresistible power by which God accomplishes His purpose.

 

 

 

http://www.churchsociety.org/issues_new/doctrine/heads/spirit/iss_doctrine_heads_spirit_creation.asp

 

 

 

I would like to add that the KJV scribes put of here when it should not!

The Spirit H7307 of EL H410 Job 33:4 SACRED KJV⁺

Blessings!

[Gregory Matthews]

Stinsonmarri:   The scholarly world   is not  generally aware of the existence of KJV scribes.  Perhaps your meant to say "Masoretic scribes?"  

I do appreciate you listing your source.  The Sacred Name KJV is a 2009 (and again in 2010) work by Daniyan W. Merrick  (aka Daniel W. Merrick).   It should be noted that his work is not a translation of the Bible.  Rather, it is simply a work in which he took that KJV, as it read and chose on his own to replaces the names of God in the KJV with his own idea as to what should have been written there.  As such, his work has little standing.   It is doubtful that a Biblical scholar would find that acceptable.

NOTE:  I have been attempting to determine the PhD. background that he claims to have.  So far, I have not been able to do so.  Probably it is there but has not popped up in the few minutes that I have  searched for it.  Why important?  Well if he has a PhD. in the study of insects he might be an expert in insects, but not in Biblical translation.  Further, who granted him a PhD?

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

14 hours ago, Gustave said:

The SDA Church was built by anti-Trinitarians on their vitriol of the Catholic Church - which they say contaminated the Protestant Churches through unbiblical doctrines ( such as the Trinity, going to Church on Sunday, etc. ).

After William Miller admitted his error in claiming he had figured out the timing of the 2nd Coming of Christ he disbanded the Millerites - leaving ONLY the folks who didn't have a Church to return to ( which were anti-Trinitarian ). These Adventists (which were left) quickly started to squabble over what Doctrines were important to have & started creating "distinctive Doctrines" which caused the group of anti-Trinitarians to fracture into sub groups or cells. The group that advocated Spirit of Prophecy became known as SDA's. 

The 1st main issue or problem within the Christian Church after the Council of Jerusalem involved Christ - was Jesus really God, etc. 

A Council was held and the Christian Church declared that Jesus really was God - God being a spiritual Substance co-equally owned by the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. 

This the Adventists DIDN'T like because they claimed that the Trinity Doctrine DESTROYED the Personality of God -  because the early SDA's were Anthropomorphites .

"The idea that an anthropomorphic conception of God is a hangover from a crude and savage religion is God-dishonoring. It strikes at the crowning act of creation — man, made in the image of God". http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/WM/WM19310501-V40-05.pdf

In other words there was NOT ONE SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE that was God - Only a Flesh hominid God, God was a real "person" that had a "Personality" a body of flesh with bones, organs, members and parts exactly like a perfect man. The new view of God has changed somewhat in the modern SDA Church and if the Trinity symposium Gregory posted a while back is representative of SDA belief the current view is that 3 Persons who are God are one in the same way a husband and wife become one - they share a common goal, view, agree with each other, etc. This "trio", prior to the creation event, thought the best way to communicate with primitive man was to adopt different roles with one member of the trio becoming The Father, one member becoming the Son and the final member becoming the Holy Spirit. 

This is a radical departure from historic Christianity - I'm only illustrating it for discussion purposes. 

I do accept the historic position of the Christian Church on the Trinity but I'm open to looking at other views on it as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here we go again, you provide the truth about the SDA did not believe in the Trinity. But this flesh and bone  of THE ELOHIYM in Heaven is not Scriptural. The Bible said this:

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by HIS SON, whom HE hath Appointed HEIR of all things, by whom also HE made the worlds; And, THOU, EL, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of THINE HANDS: Heb 1:2, 10 SACRED NAME KJV

For HE is THE BRIGHTNESS of HIS GLORY, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE of HIS BEING, and upholding all things by THE POWER of HIS Word; having made purification of our sins through HIMSELF, HE sat down on THE RIGHT HAND of the MAJESTY ON HIGH,  Heb 1.3  HRB

YAHWEH said unto my Sovereign, Sit THOU at MY RIGHT HAND, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Psa 110:1  WOY (WORD of YAHWEH)

Wherefore when HE cometh into the world, HE Saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a BODY hast THOU Prepared ME: Heb 10:5 KJV

In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with ELOHIYM, and THE WORD was EL. And THE WORD was made Flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld HIS GLORY, THE GLORY as of THE ONLY BEGOTTEN of THE FATHER,) full of GRACE and TRUTH. John 1:1, 14 SACRED NAME KJV

And so it has been written, the first man Adam became a living being, the last ADAM a LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT.  The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second MAN is the MASTER from Heaven 1Co 15:45, 47 TS2009

You made these claims but give no Scriptures!

Blessings!