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The God man - the nature of Christ as understood through the Bible writings.


8thdaypriest

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On 8/17/2018 at 4:32 PM, JoeMo said:

That doesn't mean the Jesus couldn't have performed miracles if He wanted to (which would have been against His Father's wishes).

What if the Son had voluntarily agreed that His divine powers would be blocked in some way, - surrendered - emptied from Him?  THAT would put Him on an equal footing with the human beings around Him - power wise.  He would have available to Him, only those things that human beings may access.  

One reason I ask is - all the stories in the Apocryphal books about Jesus performing miracles as a child.   How would Jesus have controlled that power - as a young child??? 

I personally do not believe He HAD such power.   I believe that He had available to Him only that power which we may all access.  

The DIFFERENCE lay in the indwelling.  How much, and when, was Jesus indwelt by His Father?  I believe He was indwelt from birth - something we do NOT experience.  The REASON.  Human beings must CONSENT to the indwelling.   Jesus had already consented - in His former life as God's Son.   

He was indwelt from birth.  Yes.  Did that make it easier for Him to resist sin?  

The temptations were tailored to fit His increased capacity to resist.  

He was tempted more powerfully than we are tempted - but the temptations were of the same "kind".   He was tempted to do those things which were against His Father's will.

8thdaypriest

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23 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, (Phil 2:5)

A surrendered mind. 

8thdaypriest

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18 hours ago, Gustave said:

In that sense of relationship between the Father & the Son the Father is 'eternally' greater than the Son. There was never a point prior to time or after it's creation that the Son wasn't obedient to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit. This is more of a point for 8thDayPriest than perhaps for you but worth consideration is Isaiah 35,4.

"Say to the fainthearted: Take courage, and fear not: behold your God will bring the revenge of recompense: God himself will come and will save you".

This was a prophecy that "God Himself" would at some point come and save His people. An individual who believes that there is only ONE GOD with a body and parts & claims this Scripture is speaking of the Father should consider that Jesus, in speaking to John the Baptists disciples, claimed Isaiah 35 was speaking of Him (Jesus). God did come ( in the Person of God the Son ).

The Apostolic understanding of Philippians 2 is that Christ was God, as much as the Father is God and even though He is God He didn't use that as an excuse as to why He wouldn't  / shouldn't empty himself by ( adding what He wasn't to what He eternally is ). The most powerful Being became a servant to His own creation, suffered for everything He didn't do - God Almighty Himself actually washing dirty smelly feet. This is difficult to grasp and absolutely a mystery I can't even fathom. 

Without listing the 100 plus Scriptures that stated there was zero possibility of God failing there is also a specific Scripture that's difficult to reconcile with a Doctrine that demands Christ had to have the possibility of failure or it was all a farce. This Scripture is Luke 2, 25 (my logic chain follows)

"And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; Because my eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples: A light to the revelation of the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. And his father and mother were wondering at those things which were spoken concerning him. And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted; And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser; she was far advanced in years, and had lived with her husband seven years from her virginity.And she was a widow until fourscore and four years; who departed not from the temple, by fastings and prayers serving night and day. Now she, at the same hour, coming in, confessed to the Lord; and spoke of him to all that looked for the redemption of Israel".

Those who believe that the Holy Spirit is an "influence" of God the Father are required to accept that IF the Father was worth His weight in salt HAD CHRIST SINNED Simeon would have been required to live forever & past that oddity if Christ had the possibility of failure Simeon wouldn't have said "dismiss thy servant, O Lord according to they word BECAUSE MY EYES HAVE SEEN THY SALVATION....". I.E. how could Simeon depart when Jesus was still a baby if it wasn't assured Jesus wouldn't fail? Anna is classified by St. Luke as being a prophet who, at the same time Simeon was confirming Jesus WAS THE CHRIST, was also confirming by "The Spirit of Prophecy" that Jesus ( the baby ) WAS the redemption of Israel. 

I would humbly ask that these considerations be pondered by anyone who insists that Jesus would have had to have the possibility of failure to make His sacrifice anything other than a farce and a mockery.  

 

Gustave,  

You don't seem to understand what I believe.  

I believe "the Holy Spirit" IS God the Father (not something the Father gives off).  

God the Father IS spirit.  (Yes - He also can appear sitting on a throne.)  

In John 4, Jesus says the true believers will "worship the Father".   He doesn't say they will worship the Spirit, because the Father IS spirit.  

When the Father "sends" the spirit, or "gives" the spirit, He is giving HIS OWN presenceHe is giving HIMSELF.  

The Son of God came representing His Father.   And the Father comes AS His Son.   

We are drawn TO the Son BY the Father.   We then come TO the Father THROUGH the Son.   BOTH Father and Son come to make their home with us.  "We abide in the Son and in the Father."   I see a two way dynamic here.  Not a three way dynamic, with someone else (a third divine being) coming to us as Christ.  

 

As to "the 100 plus Scriptures that stated there was zero possibility of God failing" - all of those are Scriptures predicting the future.  

Because God knows WHAT WILL HAPPEN, does NOT mean that HE will "make it happen" or prevent something else from happening.  

God the Father did not MAKE Christ do anything.   He did not prevent His Son from doing something contrary to His expressed "will".   

He simply predicted what Christ would do, and not do.   

Are God's predictions 100% accurate.  Yes.  

God's word has also predicted how the wicked will fight against Him, and persecute His people.  

Does this accurate prediction mean that those who act wickedly CANNOT do otherwise.  NO!  

God's predictive vision, does NOT take away our FREE WILL, and it did not take away Christ's FREE WILL either.

The Son of God COULD HAVE SINNED.   God knew that He would not. 

Would not - is not - could not.  

One is God's prophetic vision.  The other is the capacity of individuals to CHOOSE how they will act.  

8thdaypriest

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25 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

any chance you have some scripture to support the ideas in what I have quoted? I am not challenging it just yet. Would like clarification how you have arrived at this conclusion, please. There appear to be four separate ideas/conclusions here. I was hoping for at least one verse for each conclusion:

1) The DIFFERENCE lay in the indwelling.  How much, and when, was Jesus indwelt by His Father? 

2) I believe He was indwelt from birth - something we do NOT experience. 

3) Human beings must CONSENT to the indwelling

4) Jesus had already consented - in His former life as God's Son. 

I wasnt planning on questioning item #3 but the other 3 items, I definitely have questions to ask. Thought I would play smarter, instead of harder by seeking clarification first.

I will try to answer one, or possibly two at a post.

By the time we reach age 2 or 3, we are acting very SELFISH.  Just watch small children at play.  They steal each others toys and even hit each other.   They cry for attention, and want all the attention.  By the time we reach age 5 or 7, we have developed some really bad habits - of selfishness.  

Jesus told Nicodemus, "You must be born again."   

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit - is spirit. "   

We humans are all "born of the flesh".   Jesus was born - "of the spirit".  

    Matthew 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.” 

Matthew 1:20 “. . . that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

NOTE:  John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from birth.  Could be one of the reasons that Jesus said there had not risen among men, one greater than John.  We don't know exactly how that gift of the spirit was manifest during John's childhood.  We do know that John sinned and needed a savior.  Paul says, "All have sinned."  

8thdaypriest

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43 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Gustave,  

You don't seem to understand what I believe.  

I believe "the Holy Spirit" IS God the Father (not something the Father gives off).  

God the Father IS spirit.  (Yes - He also can appear sitting on a throne.)  

In John 4, Jesus says the true believers will "worship the Father".   He doesn't say they will worship the Spirit, because the Father IS spirit.  

When the Father "sends" the spirit, or "gives" the spirit, He is giving HIS OWN presenceHe is giving HIMSELF.  

The Son of God came representing His Father.   And the Father comes AS His Son.   

We are drawn TO the Son BY the Father.   We then come TO the Father THROUGH the Son.   BOTH Father and Son come to make their home with us.  "We abide in the Son and in the Father."   I see a two way dynamic here.  Not a three way dynamic, with someone else (a third divine being) coming to us as Christ.  

 

As to "the 100 plus Scriptures that stated there was zero possibility of God failing" - all of those are Scriptures predicting the future.  

Because God knows WHAT WILL HAPPEN, does NOT mean that HE will "make it happen" or prevent something else from happening.  

God the Father did not MAKE Christ do anything.   He did not prevent His Son from doing something contrary to His expressed "will".   

He simply predicted what Christ would do, and not do.   

Are God's predictions 100% accurate.  Yes.  

God's word has also predicted how the wicked will fight against Him, and persecute His people.  

Does this accurate prediction mean that those who act wickedly CANNOT do otherwise.  NO!  

God's predictive vision, does NOT take away our FREE WILL, and it did not take away Christ's FREE WILL either.

The Son of God COULD HAVE SINNED.   God knew that He would not. 

Would not - is not - could not.  

One is God's prophetic vision.  The other is the capacity of individuals to CHOOSE how they will act.  

 

If you concede God's predictions are 100% accurate & also concede there are over 100 Scriptures where God says the Christ will not fail it begs the question how you can conclude a possibility exists when the outcome itself precludes the possibility you suggest? It seems like cognitive dissonance to me but perhaps I do not understand your logic chain? 

If you could humor me ever so slightly could you provide me what you believe the mathematical probability was of:

1) the Christ being born of an experienced prostitute? 

2) The Christ being born in China?

Using your rubric of God predicting accurately 100% of the time and allowing for "Free Will" what probability was there that Christ wouldn't be born where Scripture said He would be born? 

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40 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

any chance you have some scripture to support the ideas in what I have quoted? I am not challenging it just yet. Would like clarification how you have arrived at this conclusion, please. There appear to be four separate ideas/conclusions here. I was hoping for at least one verse for each conclusion:

1) The DIFFERENCE lay in the indwelling.  How much, and when, was Jesus indwelt by His Father? 

2) I believe He was indwelt from birth - something we do NOT experience. 

3) Human beings must CONSENT to the indwelling

4) Jesus had already consented - in His former life as God's Son. 

I wasnt planning on questioning item #3 but the other 3 items, I definitely have questions to ask. Thought I would play smarter, instead of harder by seeking clarification first.

CONSENT

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." 

One must consent to baptism.  

If individuals can "resist" the Holy Spirit, they can "receive" the Holy Spirit.  

Luke 11:13 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Acts 8:14-17 “Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15 The two went down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit 16 (for as yet the Spirit had not come upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus). 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit” (NRS).

    1 John 4:13 “By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.”

8thdaypriest

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18 minutes ago, Gustave said:

 

If you concede God's predictions are 100% accurate & also concede there are over 100 Scriptures where God says the Christ will not fail it begs the question how you can conclude a possibility exists when the outcome itself precludes the possibility you suggest? It seems like cognitive dissonance to me but perhaps I do not understand your logic chain? 

If you could humor me ever so slightly could you provide me what you believe the mathematical probability was of:

1) the Christ being born of an experienced prostitute? 

2) The Christ being born in China?

Using your rubric of God predicting accurately 100% of the time and allowing for "Free Will" what probability was there that Christ wouldn't be born where Scripture said He would be born? 

Gustave,

We are talking past each other.  We are talking about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.  

1.  probability   and   2.  possibility

The probability that the Christ would ever sin, was 0% (zero).   He would not.   God saw this - before time was even created.  

The possibility that the Christ could sin, was 100%.   He was human, and humans can sin.  He had FREE WILL - which includes the ability to consent or refuse,  do or not do.  He was the "second Adam" - filled with the Spirit of His Father, yes - but also ABLE to sin (which the first Adam did). 

 "God cannot be tempted by evil."  (James 1:13)

YET:  Christ was tempted.  

"He was tempted in all things, like as we are."  (Heb 4:15)

Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. (Matt 4:1, Mark 1:13)

"For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted," (Heb 2:18)

 

Gustave, are you saying He was not really tempted? 

 

 

  

8thdaypriest

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43 minutes ago, Gustave said:

the outcome itself precludes the possibility

No.  It doesn't.  

The LORD prophesied many things that individual human beings would do, and not do.  

Those humans had a choice.  God simply knew (in advance) what their CHOICE would be.  

How does God know the future?   I certainly don't know.  He lives outside of time - as we experience it.  

If you are saying that everything is predestined - well - that's a Calvinist doctrine.  (I thought you were a good Catholic.  lol)

8thdaypriest

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1 minute ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Gustave,

We are talking past each other.  We are talking about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.  

1.  probability   and   2.  possibility

The probability that the Christ would ever sin, was 0% (zero).   He would not.   God saw this - before time was even created.  

The possibility that the Christ could sin, was 100%.   He was human, and humans can sin.  He had FREE WILL - which includes the ability to consent or refuse,  do or not do.  He was the "second Adam" - filled with the Spirit of His Father, yes - but also ABLE to sin (which the first Adam did). 

 "God cannot be tempted by evil."  (James 1:13)

YET:  Christ was tempted.  

"He was tempted in all things, like as we are."  (Heb 4:15)

Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. (Matt 4:1, Mark 1:13)

"For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted," (Heb 2:18)

 

Gustave, are you saying He was not really tempted? 

 

 

  

We are talking past each other - you're suggesting an impossible possibility. 

We agree that God knew in advance that Christ WOULDN'T FAIL & we agree that there are over 100 Scriptures where God tells us in advance that Christ WOULDN'T FAIL. 

Put yourself in the place of Simeon ( Luke 2 ) who had been told by God he wouldn't die until he had seen the Lord's Christ. After holding the Baby Jesus Simeon says he can now pass (DIE) in peace BECAUSE it was confirmed the Baby he was holding WAS SALVATION itself at that time. If A = B and B = C than A = C. 

Of course humans have free will, however,  an outcome assured by God to end up a specific way that precludes your 100% possibility means in that case the possibility was ZERO. 

Yes, I'm saying Christ was NOT REALLY  ( as in internally ) TEMPTED. This is exactly what Scripture says. 

John 1, 14: But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured. Then when concupiscence hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. But sin, when it is completed, begetteth death".

Vs

John 14, 30: "I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing".

The Bible is very clear Jesus WAS TEMPTED:

Matthew 4,1: Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil

Luke 4, 2: "Being forty days tempted OF the devil". 

 

Someone or even a situation CAN TEMPT YOU 8thDayPriest however IF someone tempts you to do something that repulses you - you are NOT TEMPTED within yourself to do it.

If you were a pedophile and another pedophile created a situation where you could indulge your desire for those acts YOU would be tempted by your own desires to go through with it.

If on the other hand you were not a pedophile and  a pedophile misjudged you AND created a situation or offered you to engage in those acts it would REPULSE YOU. You indeed were tempted "BY" or "OF" the pedophile but because that desire or lust WASN'T IN YOU - YOU WERE NOT TEMPTED. It was this way with Christ. Do you now see how you can be tempted yet NOT BE TEMPTED? 

I do not believe in predestination in the Calvinist sense - I believe that God CAN'T sin because that would contradict God, this would be something God couldn't do ( not be God ).

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

No.  It doesn't.  

The LORD prophesied many things that individual human beings would do, and not do.  

Those humans had a choice.  God simply knew (in advance) what their CHOICE would be.  

How does God know the future?   I certainly don't know.  He lives outside of time - as we experience it.  

If you are saying that everything is predestined - well - that's a Calvinist doctrine.  (I thought you were a good Catholic.  lol)

I'm assuming you believe in the "end of days", the General Judgement & the resurrection of the body - do you believe after those events take place that there exists the possibility that sin, could again, cause God to save humanity (start the process over again)? If not why not.?

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I will not attempt to speak for Rachel.  She is well qualified to speak for herself.

As you (Gustave) probably know, SDAs do believe in a resurrection of the body in End Time.  They also believe that there has been a judgment in which  it has been shown to all existing beings that the possibility of rebellion against God no longer exists in any person  who is  going on to spend eternity with God.  Therefore, the salvation process will not start over again.

 

Gregory

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3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I will not attempt to speak for Rachel.  She is well qualified to speak for herself.

As you (Gustave) probably know, SDAs do believe in a resurrection of the body in End Time.  They also believe that there has been a judgment in which  it has been shown to all existing beings that the possibility of rebellion against God no longer exists in any person  who is  going on to spend eternity with God.  Therefore, the salvation process will not start over again.

 

My interest would be her reason that it "couldn't" start over at some point after it ends. I'll plug the answer to that question into this discussion.

 

I agree that "Free Will Exists" and that just because God KNOWS an individual will be saved or lost doesn't mean that God predetermines some people to be lost and so it doesn't matter what they do. All humanity was pre-determined to be saved though Christ but BECAUSE of free will we can either cooperate with Grace or not. God knows the ultimate outcome better than we know we have a head on our shoulders and that's the real point I'm making. 

Therefore, for the sake of argument ONLY, it doesn't matter IF Christ had free will to sin and loose His own salvation ( which is IMHO horrific Blasphemy to even suggest ) BECAUSE in the specific case of Christ God told us Christ wouldn't fail, sin, loose His salvation which excludes THE POSSIBILITY OF CHRIST LOOSING HIS SALVATION. 

I've spent enough time over the years talking to Adventist groups (Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day, Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA's) to know this teaching is grasped tightly and defended at all costs. It is something common in all "ARIAN" systems ( I'm excluding SDA's as an Arian System now but still have reservations ). 

Back when anti-Trinitarians were running the SDA Church Ellen White wrote many things to support that understanding - and after it's suggested that she became more Orthodox in her belief the denomination at large was still stuck with her writings. 

Example: Ellen White claimed that "INITIALLY" Christ had two natures ( Divine and Human ) but these two natures were not united - they were BLENDED - thus, the Divine Nature had become minimized or contaminated requiring Christ to live the life that Adam should have lived OR ELSE the wrath of God would come down upon Christ and smite Him so that Christ would eternally cease to exist and become as if He never was in the first place.

 

Instead of teaching that Christ relied on His Father due to the relationship of Son within the Trinity the SDA understanding is that God is not one being but three - and that prior to the Creation event these three beings thought up or fabricated a way to better help humans understand and what ended up happening were that these three Beings took on or adopted actor roles previously alien to them. One Being became the Son, the Other the Father & one the Holy Spirit. This was clearly articulated in the Godhead Symposium put on by SDA theologians.  In my opinion THIS is what happens when a group rejects the Trinity for a long time then claims they accept it without understanding what it is that they accept. 

 

1). Again, for the sake of argument, lets say at the Incarnation its as Ellen White claimed - that Human nature was BLENDED with Divine Nature. 

2) The mechanism by which God can now fail is established - Divine Nature has been corrupted (blended with human nature)  & all bets are off. 

3) DESPITE God repeatedly telling us there was zero chance of Christ failing  - it's possible God didn't know the two natures would be blended.

4) Ellen White goes into detail describing the NAIL BITER fight of the universe wherein no one REALLY knows if the little engine can make it. 

There are ONLY two ways to think of the above, two roads so to speak.

A) God was just WRONG or making an educated guess when Scripture, in over a 100 places, categorically states Christ would succeed and NOT FAIL. 

OR,

b) God really didn't know if Michael could pull it off but eventually one of the other archangels WOULD pull it off so it was just a matter of time. This way allows for each text that speaks of God succeeding but only if it's understood that Christ wasn't a unique Person but rather a title or special honor that could be earned by whoever cracked the code and pulled off the work of Christ. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Gustave, a lot of your posts seem to gravitate into use of very small exerpts/quotes or references to writings of EGW, and thats not the best way to describe what we believe. It is my humble opinion that the "teaching" we "grasp tightly," is not so much about what she writes, as opposed to what the Bible says.  As an official teaching, this thing about "could Christ have sinned," is not there. There is also a difference between "could Christ have sinned," and "would He have sinned." In other words, I would agree; Jesus could have (simply because He can do anything) but according to the plan of salvation; He would not have. The scripture plan of salvation never once gives us the idea that Jesus would have sinned. If you use EGW I wont respond, but as long as you use only scripture and our  official statement of belief, I am in.

Ok, I'm suggesting that Scripture says Christ couldn't sin and also that Christ wouldn't sin. 

"He continueth faithful, he CANNOT deny himself" 2 Timothy 2, 13

"From eternity to eternity thou art God" Psalm 89,2

"He will NOT do iniquity" Zephaniah 3,5

1st John 3,8 says that the reason and purpose Christ came was to destroy the works of the devil. 1st John 3,9 follows that and says that whoever is born of God can't sin because God's seed is in Him. Jesus was explicit in saying that the Father was in  Him and He in the Father ( John 6, 46 & John 14, 10 ). Christ is IN the Father and the Father is IN CHRIST - thus those who looked at Christ were seeing the Father. We would not say that if Gustave has seen Gregory Matthews or the Wanderer than Gustave has seen God because God is in Matthews and Wanderer. Something else is going on here - It's the ONE BEING that is God that Thomas, upon realization, blurted out, to Jesus, "MY LORD AND MY GOD". 

God can do anything except NOT BE GOD, it's the Rock of Gibraltar promise the Scriptures shout out to us.

IF ( and I don't know where you stand on this ) there was ONLY ever 1 Christ (which I say is true) than Scripture itself excludes the possibility that Jesus "could have sinned".

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, Foreknown indeed BEFORE the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you, Who through him are faithful in God, who raised him up from the dead, and hath given him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God" 1st Peter 1,19

If the blood of the sacrifice, which was Christ, was FOREKNOWN to be unequivocally unspotted and undefiled before the world was created Christ really was the lamb slain before the world was created (Revelation 13,8) it can be said with absolute certainty that God PREDESTINED that Christ "could not sin" because He would not sin because He was, as Thomas so bluntly said, was God.  

The Jewish mind through the ages always believed God would fulfil His promise to come and save - this is why when John the Baptists disciples came up to Jesus and asked Him IF He was the one they had been waiting for Jesus QUOTED ISAIAH, 35, 4 -....... Scripture is clear that God did it this way so that "OUR FAITH AND HOPE MIGHT BE IN GOD" as opposed to being in a man or a demi-God who was sort of half of a God. 

I went through the archives of the General Conference and collected each statement I could find from both Ellen White and other writers where they affirmed Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation and how this understanding was VITAL for Christians to understand. I did the same thing with this that I did with the Personality of God Doctrine. In compiling all of that material it became clear what they meant. You asked for me not to go into all of that so I've given you a few reasons from the Bible that show Christ couldn't have sinned. I have much more where the above Scriptures came from so please, if you want to dig deeper into this  don't hesitate to challenge my understanding. I appreciate the discussion.

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Thank you; I do appreciate your efforts, and the discussion as well, although I have been short on time & energy lately to give any worth-while response. I actually do not mind discussing EGW writings with you; the point or distinction I am trying to make is only when it comes to discussing our current or past "official" belief. I will take you up on your offer to challenge! Why of course I will! :D

The below texts affirm God's foreknowledge of Christ and eliminate the possibility that He could have sinned, fallen, failed, etc

 

Ephesians 1,10
to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

2 Timothy 1,8
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the GOSPEL according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, WHICH WAS GIVEN US in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

1st Peter 1,19
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, Foreknown indeed BEFORE the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you, Who through him are faithful in God, who raised him up from the dead, and hath given him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God

These above texts have God claiming that those who WOULD BE SAVED - WOULD BE SAVED through Christ Jesus & that this was established before humans were created & that this was by the WILL OF WHOM who insured our salvation by giving it to us in Christ Jesus before the world began. 1st Peter 1,19 is explicit that the reason God did it this way was that our hope and faith of being saved lied not with man but with God. 

Isaiah 42,1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

"He shall not fail"

2nd Chron 19,7
Wherefore now let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is NO iniquity with the Lord our God

Ephesians 1,9
he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he PURPOSED in Christ
 

The Father "purposed" ALL these things in Christ and Biblically that has a specific meaning.

Job 42,2
I know that you can do all things; NO purpose of yours can be thwarted

Psalm 33,11
But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through ALL generations

Isaiah 14,24
The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying: Surely as I have thought, so shall it be: and as I have purposed

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Joseph was informed what was going to happen before it happened.

Matthew 1,20
the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he SHALL save his people from their sins

 

Simeon and Anna speaking under the authority of the Spirit of Prophecy said what was going to happen

Luke 2,25
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should NOT see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

 

Jesus explained all of this to His Disciples in very clear terms.

Luke 24,22
Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, AND slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Matthew 16,21

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, AND suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, AND be killed, AND be raised again the third day.

Mark 8,31

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man MUST suffer many things, AND be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, AND scribes, AND be killed, AND after three days rise again

Mark 9,31
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day

Luke 24,36
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them. And he said unto them, These ARE the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL things MUST be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day

And literally this is just the tip of the iceberg for Scriptures that say there was no possibility of Christ sinning, failing, loosing, etc.

To systematize all of this the Catechism says,


CCC #438
Jesus' messianic consecration reveals his divine mission, "for the name 'Christ' implies 'he who anointed', 'he who was anointed' and 'the very anointing with which he was anointed'. The one who anointed is the Father, the one who was anointed is the Son, and he was anointed with the Spirit who is the anointing.'"35 His ETERNAL messianic consecration was revealed during the time of his earthly life at the moment of his baptism by John, when "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power", "that he might be revealed to Israel"36 as its Messiah. His works and words will manifest him as "the Holy One of God".

 

Claiming that Christ "could have sinned" is no different than claiming that Christ could have been killed by a bear, eaten by a Lion, bitten by a poisonous snake and suffered death or perhaps drowned while attempting to walk on water. Non of these hypotheticals would have been possible. My point is that while Ellen White wrote a great deal about the possibility of Christ sinning and loosing His salvation the direct opposite is found in Scripture. Going back in History the only place one finds this teaching is from the mouth of Arius the Bishop. 

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1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

Thanks Gustave. My question for now would be "Have you ever been eaten by a lion?"

(of course, I know what your answer would have to be)

But my reply would read like: "But you definitely could be." :)

If the devil is a roaring lion looking for people to devour I've been eaten alive by a Lion likely more times than the average person - I AM a sinner who struggles with it almost daily. 

Now, if God said I wouldn't be eaten by a Lion that would remove the possibility of a lion eating me - it's either THAT way or it wasn't God that told me I wouldn't be eaten by a lion. ?

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1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Nice little religious riddle and play on words Gustave. But it does little to prove a Biblical point. I do not agree with you above that any of those texts say what you are claiming they do. None of those texts say that Jesus could not have made whatever choices He wanted to. Bible prophecy does tell us that Jesus WOULD NOT sin; but none that I know of say He COULD NOT have chosen to. If Jesus could not have made the choice to sin, then He could not have made the choice to vicariously die for sin. There was a reason that the devil tempted Him. And I hate to say it, but sometimes the devil understands scripture better than we do.We can see several examples of that in scripture. eg Mat 4

All the texts say exactly that for if Christ sinned then what the Prophets said WOULDN'T be fulfilled - Jesus said that the EVERYTHING the Prophets, the Law and the Psalms said about Him HAD TO BE FULFILLED

Luke 24,44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL THINGS MUST BE FULFILLED, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Look at the following texts and think about the other texts I didn't mention that say the same thing - that everything the Prophets said about Christ had to be fulfilled. 

Matthew 1,22

Matthew 2,5

Matthew 2,16

Matthew 2, 23

Matthew 3, 3

Matthew 13, 35

Matthew 21, 4

Matthew 27, 35

Etc. etc. etc. 

One of the many things Christ had to fulfil was being offered as a perfect Sacrifice without blemish, this is the Apostolic understanding.

John 1, 29: "Behold the Lamb of God which TAKETH away the sins of the world". 

1 Peter 1, 19: "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a LAMB WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH". 

Sounds familiar to:

"Your lamb shall be without blemish". Exodus 12,5

Isaiah 53: "And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all" /  "because he hath done NO INIQUITY, neither was there any deceit in his mouth" / 


Jesus was "tested" or "proven" not to see IF He could have sinned or fell to Satan but to show He couldn't sin or fall to Satan. IF Jesus had sinned, became blemished, etc. ALL IT WOULD HAVE PROVEN WAS THAT HE WASN'T THE CHRIST IN THE FIRST PLACE, period. 

This is why I asked previously what the chances were that the Christ be born of a prostitute, be born in China or Mexico or be born with Downs Syndrome! Any of those things would have excluded Jesus from being the Christ. 

Its a brave man who can on one hand swear fealty to the Sacred Scriptures, claim that God knows everything & read where God says He will not fail to provide Salvation then on the other hand claim that Christ "could have sinned", "could have fallen" all while staring at the Scriptures that say the direct opposite. 

I've given you a fraction of the Scriptures that back up my claim here - it's time for you to dissect them and show how they don't say what I and 2000 years of Christian Tradition say they mean. 

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Gustave:  I will suggest that you are failing to recognize that Biblical prophecy is often (some would say always) conditional, to include times when the condition may not be explicitly stated.

There are numerous prophecies in the O.T. in which God says that something will happen.   Examples that we could agree on related to the nation of Israel.  Those were conditioned upon Israel filling the role that God had planned for them.  They did not.  the prophecies did not come to place as stated in the OT.  

I do not have the same understanding of the Biblical texts that you seem to have.

While I am willing to grant you that the God nature in Jesus could not  have sinned.  I also believe that the human nature of Jesus could have sinned.  That did not happen. But, it could have happened.

Your cited texts do not tell me  that it could not have happened.

 

 

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Gregory

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1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

This is a point that I think I can discuss sensibly. I have concluded, so far, that none of these things would preclude Jesus from being The Christ, because He is The Christ already.

Had Jesus been born from a Prostitute after she serviced a Roman soldier in your view THAT wouldn't have precluded Jesus from being the Christ?  Matthew 1, 22 is now not worth it's weight in fish wrap according to what you just said. 

Had Jesus been born in Greece next to the temple of Delphi in your view THAT wouldn't have precluded Jesus from being the Christ? Matthew 2, 23 is now not worth it's weight in fish wrap according to what you just said. 

I could continue on but each text that informed the Jews of what to watch out for pertaining to the Christ wouldn't be worth it's weight in fish wrap if something other than what was said had to happen ended up happing. This includes the Christ being sinless. 

I'm waiting for your defense. 

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51 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

There is no scripture which explicitly puts it this way. Jesus was NOT ever "tested" for that reason:

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.(Heb 4:15)

Jesus was "tested" in order to be able to be "tempted like as we are," and Jesus was "tested"  "FOR OUR TRANSGRESSIONS; " not to "prove" any kind of religious riddles which are not supported in scripture.

Jesus didn't come down to us to "prove" anything that we think He should have.

G3985 & G3987 / "PEIRAZO"

Primary meaning: To try whether a thing can be done / To try, to make trial of, TEST, put him to the proof

 Do you believe that Jesus was gloating to His Disciples that Satan was coming but the Disciples shouldn't worry because Satan had nothing in Christ? Had it not been mentioned and reported that Satan tried to get Jesus to sin how would you know He passed THAT test? Like He passed the test of being born in the right house, from a virgin, etc.? 

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26 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

It might serve the purpose quite well to reflect upon official Catholic teachings here:

I do not agree with the line of theology regarding "The Real Presence" but this  quote also reflects on the fact that Jesus could have done just about anything He chose to do.

And we know from what Jesus said that The Father had not left Him alone AND:

"I do ALWAYS those things that please Him".  John 8, 29

So, yes, Jesus could have done anything - so long as it pleased the Father. 

 

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2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gustave:  I will suggest that you are failing to recognize that Biblical prophecy is often (some would say always) conditional, to include times when the condition may not be explicitly stated.

There are numerous prophecies in the O.T. in which God says that something will happen.   Examples that we could agree on related to the nation of Israel.  Those were conditioned upon Israel filling the role that God had planned for them.  They did not.  the prophecies did not come to place as stated in the OT.  

I do not have the same understanding of the Biblical texts that you seem to have.

While I am willing to grant you that the God nature in Jesus could not  have sinned.  I also believe that the human nature of Jesus could have sinned.  That did not happen. But, it could have happened.

Your cited texts do not tell me  that it could not have happened.

 

 

My point is that "GOD" is NOT CONDITIONAL. 

Job 42, 2: "no purpose of yours can be thwarted". 

We are told, if we can accept it, THAT Jesus was the express purpose of The Father.

Ephesians 1, 9

Where is conditionality in that? 

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1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

again, show us one text that says "Jesus gloated."

I didn't say that there was, I was asking YOU if you believe that Jesus was gloating when He told His Disciples that Satan was coming for Him but not to worry because Satan had NOTHING in Him. I'm asking you why it is that you think Jesus said that and why it was recorded in Scripture that He said that? 

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Just now, The Wanderer said:

Thats exactly how I would classify all of your "what ifs."

They aren't mine - they are yours and anyone else who suggests that it was possible that Christ "could have sinned" and "could have fallen" after God has told you that it wasn't possible for Christ to sin and fall. Remember, it was Arius,  Ellen White & the Pioneers of the SDA Church who maintained that Christ "could have sinned" & "could have fallen". 

I'm presenting evidence from the Bible that Ellen and Arius were mistaken - For Christ to be the Christ required that He not sin no different than it required He be born where he was born within the Tribe He was, etc. etc. etc. 

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1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

some prophecy is conditional:

 

Prophecy pertaining to a thing that is 100% dependent on God is NOT conditional. Simply show us where you get this? 

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3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

He did "those things" because He chose to

Jesus said He "always" chose to do those things that please the Father. 

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