The God man - the nature of Christ as understood through the Bible writings.

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Same argument you've been making.  

If the hypothetical situation of Christ sinning and loosing His salvation was realized Isaiah, Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc. would have NOT, according to the Bible, been Prophets. So, you are saying that every Old Testament Prophet wasn't really a prophet until Christ's Resurrection? By default that's what you are saying.  

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Once AGAIN Gustave.

"Would" is not the same as "Could".   Because God sees the future, does not mean that God controls the future, and removed any free choice on the part of His Son or His created sentient beings.   

You can quote a hundred verses that say God "knew" what would be.  Still doesn't mean that God would make it happen.  Not where human free will choice was involved.  

Do you believe that there was a possibility that the Christ wouldn't be born in Bethlehem, be called a Nazarene, would ride a donkey, etc. ? Did God make these things happen? 

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In the military structure,  authority comes from the president.   The president authorizes military chiefs, who authorize - who authorize - who authorize.   

God the Father is HEAD over all.   He is HEAD of Christ (1Cor 11:3).   Christ is HEAD of the Church (comprised of those who believe) (Eph 5:23,  Col 1:18). 

The Father authorizes and empowers His Son, who then authorizes and empowers His followers.  This is where the empowering stops.  I cannot empower you, and you cannot empower me.

The disciples were not stronger than the unclean spirits.  The loyal heavenly angels, would enforce the commands given by the disciples - forcing the unclean spirits to leave.   Diseases were healed in the name of Christ, by the omnipresent spirit of God the Father, who is "above all and through all and in all".  

I don't have a problem with any of what you said pre-Resurrection because Christ eternally submitted to the will of the Father. 

Post Resurrection Jesus says;

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" -- -- -- This doesn't mean the eternal submission of the Son to the Father terminated, it simply meant Christ had really fulfilled everything The Father had sent Him to do. . 

Of course the power used by the Apostles came via The Father through Christ, this is Trinity Doctrine 101 stuff. 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

No, the Apostles, Berean's  and everyone else who "searched the Scriptures daily whether those things were so" (Acts 17, 11).

There was no New Testament Scriptures yet so what the Berean's were doing is testing what the Apostles told them about Jesus AGAINST what the Scriptures they had told them were requirements OF THE CHRIST. One of those requirements would be that He would be without sin. 

When you say "without sin", what do you mean?  

Without "original sin"?   I do not believe babies need to be baptized to cleanse them of "original sin".  Adam was the original sinner.  Yes.  But his descendants did not inherit his guilt.  

Without a tendency to sin?  That is the "sinful nature", - and humans do inherit that.   A person who inherits Bipolar Disorder - for instance - has a tendency to excess, to loose his temper, or to use poor judgment, during manic episodes.  

A person who grew up in an abusive situation, certainly has a higher tendency to abuse others.  That's a tendency to sin.  

So there are inherited tendencies (nature), and there are situational tendencies (nurture).   

Without any record of sinning?

Without any consciousness of guilt before God?  

John 14:30 from a few versions:  This was just before the trial and crucifixion. 

John 14:30 "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. "(NKJ)

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; (NRS)

John 14:30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, (NIV)

When I read "has no hold over me", I take that to mean that Satan had nothing - at this point - by which he could accuse Christ to the court of Heaven.  Christ had no consciousness of guilt.   

When I read, "no power over me", I think "no buttons to push".    We all have "buttons" - fear buttons, guilt buttons, power buttons, lust buttons, appetite buttons, etc. etc.  

The meanings for "without sin" and "nothing in Me" is open to debate.  

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

I don't have a problem with any of what you said pre-Resurrection because Christ eternally submitted to the will of the Father. 

Post Resurrection Jesus says;

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" -- -- -- This doesn't mean the eternal submission of the Son to the Father terminated, it simply meant Christ had really fulfilled everything The Father had sent Him to do. . 

Of course the power used by the Apostles came via The Father through Christ, this is Trinity Doctrine 101 stuff. 

But the reasoning goes both ways.  Could be "Trinity 101 stuff" OR could be hierarchy Father 1st, Son 2nd (no 3rd).  

"All power" was GIVEN to the Son BY the Father.  

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

Do you believe that there was a possibility that the Christ wouldn't be born in Bethlehem, be called a Nazarene, would ride a donkey, etc. ? Did God make these things happen? 

God's predictions (prophecies) are 100% accurate.  Doesn't mean that God made these things happen.   He just predicted they would happen.  

Let's say that I could view the future.   Based upon that "view" - I made predictions.   My predictions are correct.  Doesn't mean that I made things happen.  Just means I "saw" them - in advance.  

I think we've now stated this in every way possible.   

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

I copied this from the SealingTime Thought it might be of interest.

 

 

LHC,

I've asked that EGW not be quoted in this thread.  Bible ONLY.   Thanks

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, Gustave said:

Jesus was "led by the spirit" to be tested by the Devil so that there would be proof there was no sin in Him.

I'll think about his one.   

There were created un-fallen beings.  They perhaps could have witnessed these "temptations", and Christ's refusal of same,  or have received the report from the good angels who witnessed Christ's trial. 

Maybe this testing was a sort of prep, for Jesus.  Sort of like the Seals test men to the limits of their endurance, so each man can know what he is capable of.  These tests may have given Jesus knowledge of His opponent, his strength, and cunning. 

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

When you say "without sin", what do you mean?  

Without "original sin"?   I do not believe babies need to be baptized to cleanse them of "original sin".  Adam was the original sinner.  Yes.  But his descendants did not inherit his guilt.  

Without a tendency to sin?  That is the "sinful nature", - and humans do inherit that.   A person who inherits Bipolar Disorder - for instance - has a tendency to excess, to loose his temper, or to use poor judgment, during manic episodes.  

A person who grew up in an abusive situation, certainly has a higher tendency to abuse others.  That's a tendency to sin.  

So there are inherited tendencies (nature), and there are situational tendencies (nurture).   

Without any record of sinning?

Without any consciousness of guilt before God?  

John 14:30 from a few versions:  This was just before the trial and crucifixion. 

John 14:30 "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. "(NKJ)

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; (NRS)

John 14:30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, (NIV)

When I read "has no hold over me", I take that to mean that Satan had nothing - at this point - by which he could accuse Christ to the court of Heaven.  Christ had no consciousness of guilt.   

When I read, "no power over me", I think "no buttons to push".    We all have "buttons" - fear buttons, guilt buttons, power buttons, lust buttons, appetite buttons, etc. etc.  

The meanings for "without sin" and "nothing in Me" is open to debate.  

 

What I mean is that when Christ was sacrificed He had to have been guilty of nothing, i.e. sinless. 

Original sin isn't, according to Scripture, transmitted by imitation, it's by conception. 

I'll use the CCC to explain our fallen nature:

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".²⁹³ By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.²⁹⁴ It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

What is your meaning for "without sin" & what is your meaning for "nothing in me". 

I appreciate this discussion with you.

 

 

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

God's predictions (prophecies) are 100% accurate.  Doesn't mean that God made these things happen.   He just predicted they would happen.  

Let's say that I could view the future.   Based upon that "view" - I made predictions.   My predictions are correct.  Doesn't mean that I made things happen.  Just means I "saw" them - in advance.  

I think we've now stated this in every way possible.   

If you're God they are not predictions, they are statements of fact. 

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

LHC,

I've asked that EGW not be quoted in this thread.  Bible ONLY.   Thanks

Two things, do you think our Father in heaven would leave His end time children with less spiritual protection than He provided His children in the days when His Son walked this earth, especially when we're living ?

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour...1Peter 5

If we are not careful we could find ourselves in the same position as the persons responsible for putting Jesus on the cross and persecuting His followers.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. ..Revelation 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

While its not completely wrong to call prophecy "predictions," I have come to view prophecy as fact. It seems pretty clear from scripture:

The nature of Christ can be better understood through prophecy.

I'm 'sort of' along the same lines of thinking as you are. 

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Perfect distractions and divide and conquer "apologetics."

It's a valid point - what would be the possibility of "the Christ" being or doing anything contrary to what the Law, the prophets & the Psalms said of Him? is .01%, 20% or zero?

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Great, so when will we be able to discuss what scripture says?

We have been, by my count I've provided significantly more Scriptures than anyone else to back up the position I've taken. The Catechism I quoted simply systematizes Scripture.

[JoeMo]

14 hours ago, Gustave said:

It's a valid point - what would be the possibility of "the Christ" being or doing anything contrary to what the Law, the prophets & the Psalms said of Him? is .01%, 20% or zero?

I can think of a few times Christ was accused of breaking the Law (at least the rabbinical interpretation).

He justified His disciples gleaning and eating grain on the Sabbath.  The prohibition on gathering food on the seventh day must have been important - it was given in Ex. 16 prior to the giving of the 10 Commandments.

Leviticus 20:10 states "“‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."  When the Pharisees brought the woman caught in adultery and ask Jesus about enforcing the law, He told them that He who is without sin should cast the first stone.  Fair enough; but Jesus WAS without sin.  How come He didn't cast the first stone.

The Law says anyone who touches a dead body or a leper is unclean until they go through the prescribed purification rituals.  There is no Biblical record that Jesus ever went through one of these rituals after healing lepers or raising the dead.

I say these things tongue-in cheek.  Jesus never ever sinned; or we would be doomed.  But He did give others the perception that He broke the Law.

[Gustave]

20 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I can think of a few times Christ was accused of breaking the Law (at least the rabbinical interpretation).

He justified His disciples gleaning and eating grain on the Sabbath.  The prohibition on gathering food on the seventh day must have been important - it was given in Ex. 16 prior to the giving of the 10 Commandments.

Leviticus 20:10 states "“‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."  When the Pharisees brought the woman caught in adultery and ask Jesus about enforcing the law, He told them that He who is without sin should cast the first stone.  Fair enough; but Jesus WAS without sin.  How come He didn't cast the first stone.

The Law says anyone who touches a dead body or a leper is unclean until they go through the prescribed purification rituals.  There is no Biblical record that Jesus ever went through one of these rituals after healing lepers or raising the dead.

I say these things tongue-in cheek.  Jesus never ever sinned; or we would be doomed.  But He did give others the perception that He broke the Law.

I would say the importance was that God said it was to see if the Children of Israel would walk in His law or not. 

"that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not". That was the stated reason, i.e. will they obey what God says.

I would agree, Jesus did give the perception to some that He broke the law - but the common or lowly folk never seemed to take it that way. The way I see this is that Jesus was Lord over every law (like He said He was Lord over the Sabbath). The Jewish religious authority had made many additions to the Sabbath that made it more difficult - such as starting the Sabbath on Friday evening and other "traditions" that made it hard for anyone other than the rich. Jesus didn't come to condemn, He came to save and that's why I think He did what He did for the woman caught in adultery. 

You don't really hear it talked about very much but Jesus did say, "he who love his father and mother more than me is not worthy of me". 

To me this is Jesus saying He was God because He said one of the two most important Commandments was Deuteronomy 6, 5. If that's the case it would make sense that God could forgive who He forgives because He is, after all, Lord of everything.  

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 8/25/2018 at 2:22 PM, Gustave said:

Jesus had power and authority in and of Himself.

Jesus had no power or authority "in and of Himself".   He had only that authority given Him by His Father. 

He said Himself, "All power (authority) is GIVEN UNTO ME, in Heaven and in earth."  

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

In Jesus last prayer - addressed to His Father:  "Now they know that everything You have given me comes from You." 

John 5:27 And He [the Father] has given Him [the Son] authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. (NIV)

PS:  You never read of the Holy Spirit having any authority. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 8/26/2018 at 7:04 AM, Gustave said:

We have been, by my count I've provided significantly more Scriptures than anyone else to back up the position I've taken. The Catechism I quoted simply systematizes Scripture.

You have quoted Scriptures to prove the would be, and the would do.   No one is arguing the 100% accuracy of God inspired prophecies concerning the future.   

You have not addressed those texts which say that Christ had "the nature of Abraham", and was "tempted in all things LIKE as WE ARE".   

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I like that! I dont know yet how I would answer, but thats gotta be the best question I have seen asked on this forum in quite a while. Now the wheels are turning...(anyone else smell burning rubber? lol )

He did not cast a stone BECAUSE He did not condemn her (He forgave her.)   He had authority to do that - (given to Him by His Father). 

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, Gustave said:

The Law says anyone who touches a dead body or a leper is unclean until they go through the prescribed purification rituals.  There is no Biblical record that Jesus ever went through one of these rituals after healing lepers or raising the dead.

When Jesus touched them - they were NOT dead. The healing or the life began in them, just before His touch.   It came from God the Father.  In effect - He did not touch the dead, or lepers.  Or maybe He was just not contaminated by them - as evidenced by the healing or resurrection. 

[8thdaypriest]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

the "authority" thing is not all its cracked up to be by many. Even us humans are given some authority; but not all authority like Jesus. I can provide references for this in another post. One that comes to mind is how we are told to "judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24)

Also, your comment re The Holy Spirit does not realy prove anything even IF that were so. But that may be best for another topic?

OK - another thread.  I will ask where the Holy Spirit is spoken of as having any "authority".  

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, JoeMo said:

He justified His disciples gleaning and eating grain on the Sabbath.  The prohibition on gathering food on the seventh day must have been important - it was given in Ex. 16 prior to the giving of the 10 Commandments.

Walking through a field and taking only what one could eat at that moment, was allowed. 

[8thdaypriest]

18 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I think it was actually Gustave who posted this but I got it from rachel's post. It might interest some to know exactly why Jesus was never worried about touching lepers, and consequently, also not worried about the so called purification rituals.

I put that in quotations because I have posted this elsewhere on the forum recently.

Re LEPROSY: 

The disease can’t be transferred from person to person, unless there’s repeated close contact with leakage from the nose and mouth of a leper. Additionally, the disease most often affects children, so it’s rare for an adult to contract the disease. The World Health Organization reports that there are 180,000 cases of leprosy worldwide today with most cases occurring in Africa and Asia. In the United States, approximately 100 individuals are diagnosed with leprosy each year. Most incidences occur in the southern states, California, Hawaii, and outlaying U.S. territories.

The disease is caused by exposure to Mycobacterium leprae (M. leprae), a bacteria that grows slowly in the body, once a person has been exposed.

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

Re LEPROSY: 

The disease can’t be transferred from person to person, unless there’s repeated close contact with leakage from the nose and mouth of a leper. Additionally, the disease most often affects children, so it’s rare for an adult to contract the disease. The World Health Organization reports that there are 180,000 cases of leprosy worldwide today with most cases occurring in Africa and Asia. In the United States, approximately 100 individuals are diagnosed with leprosy each year. Most incidences occur in the southern states, California, Hawaii, and outlaying U.S. territories.

The disease is caused by exposure to Mycobacterium leprae (M. leprae), a bacteria that grows slowly in the body, once a person has been exposed.

Swine are great carriers of Leprosy.   Hmmm.  Maybe one reason why the LORD forbade touching them.   

[LifeHiscost]

On 8/27/2018 at 4:34 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

OK - another thread.  I will ask where the Holy Spirit is spoken of as having any "authority".  

Acts 1:5

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence

Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

God is Love!~Jesus Saves!