The God man - the nature of Christ as understood through the Bible writings.

[Gregory Matthews]

The idea that swine can transmit leprosy has been a subject of common conversation.  However, it is without foundation and can not be objectively demonstrated.

In actual fact, there is a limited amount of knowledge as to how leprosy is transmitted.  

As to the Biblical disease that is commonly thought to be leprosy,  that is also subject to much speculation.  It probably was some sort of skin disease.  In fact, it may have been several such.  In any case, it can not be  assumed that it was absolutely leprosy.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I do not think that anyone, to include you, (The wanderer). used the English word Leprosy.

The Hebrew word used in the Bible has been transliterated as Sara'ath.  A description of the disease is given in Leviticus 13.  Some believe that passage describes what we today would be seven (7) different diseases.  Those would include a fungus, psoriasis, vitiligo and more.  When you consider that in the Bible leprosy included clothing and on homes, one would reasonably conclude that a mildew or fungus was involved.    

Perhaps (?) some people in the Bible did have Hansen's Disease.  But, one should not limit the Biblical usage to what we call Hansen's Disease today.

 

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

When discussing "the nature of Christ," all people want to talk about is "The Substance," and that is the one thing about His nature that the Bible really does not give us much information on at all!!

True

[8thdaypriest]

If God (who became the Father) "beget" His Son from Himself, perhaps this was similar (tho on a much reduced scale) to the way in which Eve was created from the tissue (the substance) of Adam.   Eve was essentially a clone, with a change from Y to X chromosome.  The TWO became ONE by marriage covenant,  just as the Father and His Son are ONE, because they are joined by covenant and mind.  

The substance of Adam was changed from male Y to female X, to create Eve,  just as "the Son of God" was changed from divine/spirit, to human/flesh, to form Jesus.  Each was changed.  

In marriage "the husband is head of the wife" .  In the godhead - the Father is head of Christ (I Cor 11).  

 

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

The "substance" is NOT the point of the word "begotten."

It's not??   I thought the Gospel message is that God has given "His only begotten Son".    If the Son was not really begotten of His Father - but rather always existed - and simply changed form to be fused with a human body,  then the Gospel message has been misunderstood.   

The words "His Father" and "His Son" are used over and over in the NT.   How do we understand them??  

I have heard "only begotten"  explained as "uniquely begotten".    Samuel, and Isaac, and John the Baptist were all "uniquely" conceived in their barren mother's wombs.   They were conceived by miracle.   For me, "uniquely begotten" doesn't go far enough.   The word "only" excludes any possible others.   It makes Jesus the ONLY "Son of God".  

As for the WHEN question:   There are a few verses that speak to this.

        Hebrews 1:5-6 “For to which of the angels did He ever say: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You’? And again: ‘I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son’? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: ‘Let all the angels of God worship Him.’”

            I used to wonder if Jesus conceived Himself.  The writer of Hebrews says the Father brought His Son into our world.  The Spirit by which Mary conceived, was therefore the Spirit OF God the Father.  Jesus’ Father assisted His Son (who already existed in the heavenly realm) to incarnate into human flesh and nature.

            John calls Jesus “the Son of the Father”, and "the only begotten of the Father".  Jesus is NOT the Son of another “third” divine being.  

     John 1:14  “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

        2 John 1:3 “Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.”

We read that Jesus was "conceived of the Holy Spirit".  Put the two together.   The Holy Spirit IS God the Father.  "God is Spirit".  

    Matthew 11:27 “All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, ”  (Parallel: Luke 10:22) 

        If the Holy Spirit is a third divine person, He would also “know” the Father, and He would “know” the Son.  

THEN THERE'S PROVERBS 8.

Proverbs 8:22-30  "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;  I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.                When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water;  before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth.  I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, (NIV)

I know.  Folks say this is just a parody on wisdom.  Paul calls Christ "wisdom from God" and "the wisdom of God".   Wonder where Paul got that idea?   Paul was constantly drawing from the OT.  

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

1.  Who does Jesus say “sent” Him?
        Answer: His Father (17 verses)  

2.  Whose will is supreme - according to Jesus?
        Answer: Our Father in Heaven 

3.  To Whom does Jesus pray?
        Answer: To His Father (19 verses)
 
      How many verses mention prayer to the Holy Spirit?   
        Answer: 0 verses 

4.    Who directed Jesus - concerning His teachings and His actions?
        Answer: His God and Father  

5.    Who gave Jesus power to heal, and to raise the dead?
        Answer: His God and Father  

6.    Who gave Jesus authority to judge and to execute judgment?
        Answer: His God and Father.

7.    According to New Testament writers, who is “the God” of Jesus Christ?  
        Answer: His Father (10 verses) 

8.    Who raised Jesus from death?
        Answer: His God and Father (14 verses)   

9.    Did Jesus claim to be equal with His Father?
        Answer: No! (3 verses) 

10.    How many verses speak of giving thanks to the Father?   Answer: 5 verses 
        How many verses speak of giving thanks to the Holy Spirit?   Answer: 0 verses 

11.    How many verses speak of giving glory to the Father?   Answer: 10 verses  
      How many speak of giving glory to the Son?   Answer: 12 verses 
        How many speak of giving glory to the Holy Spirit?   Answer: 0 verses 

12.    Whom did Jesus seek to honor and glorify?  Answer: His Father 
        Who glorified Christ?  Answer: His Father

13.    To whom will Jesus give the Kingdom He has won?
        Answer: To His God and Father.  

6 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Scripture, as a whole, does not intend for us to figure out such stuff about the Substance of God.

I believe it is plain - from the Scriptures - that the Holy Spirit is not a THIRD divine being/person.   There are TWO divine persons/beings - God Our Father and Jesus Christ His Son.  

Exactly when the Son of God came to be, is not clearly elucidated, but the truth that He did come to be - is.   He is "the Son".   Without a father to beget him, a "son" cannot come to be.  

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

"His only begotten Son"

I always interpreted "begotten" as something different from being "created".  Pretty much like Rachel said.

Question - if the Holy Spirit (a Person distinct  from the Father) came over Mary for her to conceive Jesus, why does Jesus call the Father "Father"?  Why doesn't He call the HS "Father"?

 

52 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I was saying that the Scriptures DO SAY a lot about the nature of Christ, but NOT the Substance of Christ.

I agree.  Maybe knowing the "substance" of Christ is none of our business - at least in this Age.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

there is no way for us to determine the very substance of Christ; the Bible doesnt go there

There is no way for us to determine the very substance of the Father either - except what Jesus said, "God is spirit."  

[JoeMo]

On 9/3/2018 at 3:51 PM, The Wanderer said:

IF we could figure out the substance of deity, it would not be from the word begotten.

I dunno about that.  Before creation, there was no such thing as time.  Time and space must exist simultaneously or not at all.  Assuming Jesus was "begotten" prior to creation, it would still be accurate to say Jesus has existed for all time; and was present at the "beginning".  IMHO, I infer from the word "begotten" that Jesus was the same substance as the Father as opposed to "created" substance.  That's as far as I can go.  What that "substance" is I haven't a clue; neither does it concern me beyond "God is Spirit" (whatever that is), and my assertion that the pre-incarnate Jesus is not a "created" being.

[Gustave]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 1:41 PM, JoeMo said:

I always interpreted "begotten" as something different from being "created".  Pretty much like Rachel said.

Question - if the Holy Spirit (a Person distinct  from the Father) came over Mary for her to conceive Jesus, why does Jesus call the Father "Father"?  Why doesn't He call the HS "Father"?

 

I agree.  Maybe knowing the "substance" of Christ is none of our business - at least in this Age.

We can't know what it is, that's why we call it Substance. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 8/20/2018 at 3:19 PM, JoeMo said:

These stories are apocryphal. Maybe true, maybe not.  The only thing Biblical is that Jesus was aware of who He was by age 12 when He was preaching in the Temple.

Not all His temptations were the same "kind".  Satan would be stupid to tempt us to use our divine powers for ourselves; or by our own free will.  We don't have divine power.  Jesus did; hence a different level of temptation.  satan couldn't tempt us to jump down off the cross to save ourselves, because we don't have the ability to do so. Jesus did.  We don't have the ability to call down a legion of angels to protect us when we are under attack.  Jesus did.

Jesus was God the Father's "Son."  He existed in heaven prior to being incarnated (by His Father) into human form and nature.  He commanded the angels of God, prior to His incarnation.  

Once incarnated, He was "tempted" to use the authority He held, over the angels.  He was tempted to "command" that the stones be made bread.  Angels may have the power to do THAT.   The angels had been commanded to "serve" Christ.  The angels COULD HAVE saved Yeshua if He jumped off the Temple.  The angels COULD HAVE rescued Christ from the cross.  Satan knew all that.  He framed his temptations, to fit the authority that he knew Yeshua held.   

Does anyone seriously believe that Christ did NOT DESIRE to avoid being crucified?  He begged "let this cup pass from me."  He was seriously tempted.  He bled through His skin, the suffering was so great.  But He chose to submit His will to that of His Father.  

 

[Gustave]

On 1/21/2024 at 1:46 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus was God the Father's "Son."  He existed in heaven prior to being incarnated (by His Father) into human form and nature.  He commanded the angels of God, prior to His incarnation.  

Once incarnated, He was "tempted" to use the authority He held, over the angels.  He was tempted to "command" that the stones be made bread.  Angels may have the power to do THAT.   The angels had been commanded to "serve" Christ.  The angels COULD HAVE saved Yeshua if He jumped off the Temple.  The angels COULD HAVE rescued Christ from the cross.  Satan knew all that.  He framed his temptations, to fit the authority that he knew Yeshua held.   

Does anyone seriously believe that Christ did NOT DESIRE to avoid being crucified?  He begged "let this cup pass from me."  He was seriously tempted.  He bled through His skin, the suffering was so great.  But He chose to submit His will to that of His Father.  

 

It is not a sin to want to live, it's not a sin to not want to be tortured beyond belief. This isn't temptation to sin by any means.