Apostolic Succession

[JoeMo]

On 8/29/2018 at 2:36 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

How is he to be removed - permanently?

Correct me if I'm mistaken, Gustave, but I think the RCC has a procedure for totally "defrocking" an ordained priest Failing that, there is always excommunication.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Gustave said:

Peter wasn't blameless, Moses wasn't blameless - a Bishop can make mistakes and even sin - it doesn't effect official teachings.

Neither Peter nor Moses molested little boys, or taught falsehood.   The LORD would have struck Moses dead, if Moses had lied in His name.  

[Gustave]

16 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Neither Peter nor Moses molested little boys, or taught falsehood.   The LORD would have struck Moses dead, if Moses had lied in His name.  

Approximately 1/2 of 1% (.05)  of Folks that identify themselves as Christians are SDA's.

Approximately 2.2. billion Catholics Vs. 17 Million SDA's. 

The below links are just a few news articles of SDA's buggering little boys and girls - from a Church that represents 1/2 of a percent of the worlds Christians. Can you imagine what news coverage of SDA's would look like IF they represented 50 percent.

https://articles.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/08/lawuit_accuses_seventh_day_adv.amp

https://abc30.com/lawsuit-says-adventist-church-shouldve-prevented-teachers-sex-abuse/3421778/

http://dumaslawgroup.com/7th-day-adventists-ignored-claims-teachers-sexual-abuse/

https://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/news/pastor-allegedly-neglects-to-report-confession-of-girls-sex-abuse-15298731

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/howard/columbia/ph-sex-abuse-sentencing-20130711-story.html

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/in-depth/royal-commission/seventhday-adventists-admit-they-failed-teen-abuse-victim/news-story/5dcff3c47b7f55d5251e2d3aea262e5d

https://www.chronicle.co.zw/high-court-rules-against-seventh-day-adventist-church/

https://www.click2houston.com/news/deacon-of-west-houston-church-accused-of-molesting-2-children-police-believe-there-are-more-victims

I would be the last person to defend the Catholic Church when it comes time to homosexuality / Pedo's  in the Priesthood - far be it. I'm proudly in the camp of : https://www.churchmilitant.com/

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/pope-francis-must-resign-zero-tolerance

 

[8thdaypriest]

What if "The Church" is teaching falsehood?   Every falsehood binds us in a degree of darkness.  The truth sets us free to trust and love our God.   

If "The Church" is teaching falsehood - then what?   Stay with the Church?   Begin teaching truth to let some light in?   "Be burned at the stake."   

The Reformers left The Church for their own safety. 

[Gustave]

4 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

What if "The Church" is teaching falsehood?   Every falsehood binds us in a degree of darkness.  The truth sets us free to trust and love our God.   

If "The Church" is teaching falsehood - then what?   Stay with the Church?   Begin teaching truth to let some light in?   "Be burned at the stake."   

The Reformers left The Church for their own safety. 

What falsehood? This is Korah's argument, that Moses was teaching falsehood. 

[8thdaypriest]

The LORD appointed/anointed Saul as the first king of Israel.   Saul was the rightful king.  Yes.  But Saul - as king and leader over Israel - committed great sins against the Lord.  The Lord then anointed David.  This happened many years BEFORE Saul and his son died.  Saul was told by the prophet that the Lord would remove him, from being king over Israel.  Saul resisted this, and sought to kill David for many years.  

Between the time that David was anointed, and Saul finally committed suicide, who was the rightful king of Israel?  

The Reformers were inspired and anointed of God to lead His people away from falsehoods.   The Popes and priests committed great sins against God,  literally, by their persecutions of Christians who disagreed with their doctrines, and by preaching falsehoods.   

Because "The Church" has not yet been completely replaced, does not mean she will not be - in the future.  

Every falsehood will be swept away, when Christ returns.  

[8thdaypriest]

9 minutes ago, Gustave said:

What falsehood? This is Korah's argument, that Moses was teaching falsehood. 

This would take us into a debate over doctrines:

State of the Dead,  Hell as continuing conscious torment forever,  Worship of Mary and Saints,  Baptism of Infants,  Trans-substitution,  Prayers for the Dead,  Sale of Indulgences to Sin,  God as Trinity,  and on and on and on. 

You Gustave, most likely believe Roman Catholic doctrines.   I do not, and regard them as falsehoods.  Still - I would not burn you at the stake, no matter what you teach.   

[Lone Ranger]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 11:42 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

The Popes and priests committed great sins against God,  literally, by their persecutions of Christians who disagreed with their doctrines, and by preaching falsehoods.   

From reading the "George Knight Speaks" thread it would seem that SDA is also trending in this direction.

[LifeHiscost]

17 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

From reading the "George Knight Speaks" thread it would seem that SDA is also trending in this direction.

It is important no matter how we think or feel about doctrine or how individuals interpret it, our Father in Heaven desires freedom to think for ourselves. However, true freedom comes from accepting His law.

1 Corinthians 10:15

I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say.

 

Romans 14:1

[ The Law of Liberty ] Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.

 

James 1:25

But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Gustave]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:42 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

The LORD appointed/anointed Saul as the first king of Israel.   Saul was the rightful king.  Yes.  But Saul - as king and leader over Israel - committed great sins against the Lord.  The Lord then anointed David.  This happened many years BEFORE Saul and his son died.  Saul was told by the prophet that the Lord would remove him, from being king over Israel.  Saul resisted this, and sought to kill David for many years.  

Between the time that David was anointed, and Saul finally committed suicide, who was the rightful king of Israel?  

The Reformers were inspired and anointed of God to lead His people away from falsehoods.   The Popes and priests committed great sins against God,  literally, by their persecutions of Christians who disagreed with their doctrines, and by preaching falsehoods.   

Because "The Church" has not yet been completely replaced, does not mean she will not be - in the future.  

Every falsehood will be swept away, when Christ returns.  

Saul was the King until he wasn't - I'm not sure if you realize it yet but you've just demonstrated my point. 

Which "Christians" did the Popes and Priests persecute? 

[Gustave]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:25 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

In common SDA understanding, the "laying on of hands," has involved both the "setting apart" to some  duty/responsibility and in addition the authorization to do so as given by the local congregation.

However, the SDA Bible Dictionary gives a number of other meanings included in that phrase to include: Ordination to the service of God, examples of which include the Levite priests (Num. 8:9-10) , Paul, Barnabas and Timothy.

You would agree would you not that if the SDA Bible Dictionary references the Levitical Priesthood in speaking of the Laying on of hands it denotes the SDA Church believes it has the authority to set aside some for ministerial or other duties? Let's say a good intentioned person read the whole Bible and claimed he was set aside from God to minister - would the SDA Church allow that person to "self authenticate" and preach the Gospel to SDA's? 

 

[Gustave]

On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 4:23 PM, The Wanderer said:

Catholics do have an answer to this: It is found in their Tradition, which, when combined with Scripture, is classed as "The Deposit Of Faith":
 

Jesus summed it up pretty good with a question that He once asked:

I did not post this reply to mock anyone, or to criticize. I posted it to explain my current beliefs and why. There are several Catholic apologetics approaches to what I have posted. I will be interested to see which ones are used. I also feel its important to add that Gustave, who I understand is Catholic, is most certainly welcome here, and I do class him as a brother in Christ. I look forward to his challenges. He shows a very detailed concern to get it right on the nature of Christ, and so thats a good thing we can all learn from. I can see this subject turning into one of those mile long threads.

Celebrating the 7th day Sabbath on the evening of the 6th day is a Rabbinical innovation / Tradition that's alien to the Scriptures. Do you start celebrating the Sabbath Friday evening? 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave:

Celebration of the Sabbath:  The SDA celebration of the Sabbath is considered to be from sundown, Friday evening until sundown Saturday evening.  I am surprised that Gustave seemingly is not aware of that.  SDAs neither consider that to be a Rabbinical innovation, nor do they consider it to be a tradition not founded in Scripture.  SDAs  trace this back to the Creation story found in Genesis in which it says that the evening and the morning were the  X day.

However, in the historic development of the SDA denomination, this view was not immediately accepted.  There are a small number of SDAs today who do not accept this view.  There are some SDAs today who begin an end the Sabbath at 6 PM.  There are others who begin and end it at a time period based upon the time in Jerusalem.  It should be realized that those who hold such views are a  minority.  However, I can take you to a SDA congregation, which I once attended in a "lower 48 State" that had a member in good standing who began the Sabbath at 6 PM.  In addition,  individual SDAs who live above the Arctic Circle may fall into one of these minority groups, or they may fall into the majority group.  In any case, the SDA denomination has not mandated what they should do.  Gustave, there is more freedom of belief and practice within Adventism than you have realized.

SDA Clergy:  Your question directed to me is a good one.  The SDA Church has established a set of standards by which a person is generally recognized as SDA Clergy.  However, these standards are applied on a regional basis. Thus, in some parts of the world the standards may not be exactly the same as in other parts of the world.  In addition, exceptions may be granted, and are granted at times.  E.G.  Doug Batchelor is an officially recognized SDA clergyperson who has not met the common standards that exist for a clergyperson in North America.  I know of other such examples.

While the SDA Church has established standards to be recognized as SDA clergy, it has not established standards for other denominations.  Therefore,  the SDA Church recognizes the Baptist/Methodist clergyperson down the street as clergy.  As to their preaching to SDAs,  and as a point of interest,  when I was a congregational pastor, I had a local Methodist pastor preach to my congregation one Saturday morning and I preached to his congregation  on a Sunday morning.    But, as you could expect, on a regular basis I preached to my congregation.

Let me give you an additional example to stimulate your thinking:  As you probably know,  SDAs practice baptism by immersion.  We do not require that people be baptized again if they have been baptized by immersion and are transferring from another denomination to the SDA denomination.  Such people often are so baptized again.  But, we do not require it.    So, a Baptist who has been baptized by immersion may join the SDA  denomination without being baptized again.  As you know, but many reading this post, probably do not,  the Roman Catholic Church considers baptism by immersion to be valid and it is allowed even if rarely practiced.  Therefore a Roman Catholic who had been baptized by immersion would be allowed to join the SDA denomination without being baptized again.

 

NOTE:  For those interested, Roman Catholic Canon Law 854 authorizes baptism either by immersion or by pouring in compliance with the Episcopal Conference.

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gustave:

Celebration of the Sabbath:  The SDA celebration of the Sabbath is considered to be from sundown, Friday evening until sundown Saturday evening.  I am surprised that Gustave seemingly is not aware of that.  SDAs neither consider that to be a Rabbinical innovation, nor do they consider it to be a tradition not founded in Scripture.  SDAs  trace this back to the Creation story found in Genesis in which it says that the evening and the morning were the  X day.

However, in the historic development of the SDA denomination, this view was not immediately accepted.  There are a small number of SDAs today who do not accept this view.  There are some SDAs today who begin an end the Sabbath at 6 PM.  There are others who begin and end it at a time period based upon the time in Jerusalem.  It should be realized that those who hold such views are a  minority.  However, I can take you to a SDA congregation, which I once attended in a "lower 48 State" that had a member in good standing who began the Sabbath at 6 PM.  In addition,  individual SDAs who live above the Arctic Circle may fall into one of these minority groups, or they may fall into the majority group.  In any case, the SDA denomination has not mandated what they should do.  Gustave, there is more freedom of belief and practice within Adventism than you have realized.

SDA Clergy:  Your question directed to me is a good one.  The SDA Church has established a set of standards by which a person is generally recognized as SDA Clergy.  However, these standards are applied on a regional basis. Thus, in some parts of the world the standards may not be exactly the same as in other parts of the world.  In addition, exceptions may be granted, and are granted at times.  E.G.  Doug Batchelor is an officially recognized SDA clergyperson who has not met the common standards that exist for a clergyperson in North America.  I know of other such examples.

While the SDA Church has established standards to be recognized as SDA clergy, it has not established standards for other denominations.  Therefore,  the SDA Church recognizes the Baptist/Methodist clergyperson down the street as clergy.  As to their preaching to SDAs,  and as a point of interest,  when I was a congregational pastor, I had a local Methodist pastor preach to my congregation one Saturday morning and I preached to his congregation  on a Sunday morning.    But, as you could expect, on a regular basis I preached to my congregation.

Let me give you an additional example to stimulate your thinking:  As you probably know,  SDAs practice baptism by immersion.  We do not require that people be baptized again if they have been baptized by immersion and are transferring from another denomination to the SDA denomination.  Such people often are so baptized again.  But, we do not require it.    So, a Baptist who has been baptized by immersion may join the SDA  denomination without being baptized again.  As you know, but many reading this post, probably do not,  the Roman Catholic Church considers baptism by immersion to be valid and it is allowed even if rarely practiced.  Therefore a Roman Catholic who had been baptized by immersion would be allowed to join the SDA denomination without being baptized again.

 

NOTE:  For those interested, Roman Catholic Canon Law 854 authorizes baptism either by immersion or by pouring in compliance with the Episcopal Conference.

I was aware that SDA's consider the Sabbath to be from sundown Friday evening until sundown Saturday evening - THAT's the Rabbinic Innovation - there isn't any command to do that - it's simply Tradition.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

My point is:  We trace it back to Creation and the Genesis story.  We to not trace it back to Jewish Rabbis.

[8thdaypriest]

On 9/1/2018 at 4:57 PM, The Wanderer said:

But, Jesus did NOT leave the church "for His own safety," and His example is no longer worth following? Do we follow the Reformers, or Jesus?

The Reformers were not called to be "the Lamb" - the sacrifice.  How do you know the LORD was not leading them to flee?

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, Gustave said:

Celebrating the 7th day Sabbath on the evening of the 6th day is a Rabbinical innovation / Tradition that's alien to the Scriptures. Do you start celebrating the Sabbath Friday evening? 

Yes.  I do.

"from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath." (Lev 23:32 NKJ)

[8thdaypriest]

Well - you can believe the Pope - right?

Pope Francis officially apologized for persecuting Protestants on January 25, as he unveiled plans for a radical push for unity during the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

“As the bishop of Rome and pastor of the Catholic Church, I would like to invoke mercy and forgiveness for the non-evangelical behavior of Catholics toward Christians of other churches,” he said. “At the same time, I invite all Catholic brothers and sisters to forgive if today, or in the past, they have suffered offense by other Christians.”

“Non-evangelical behavior” is an interesting euphemism for the massive violence unleashed in the wake of the Reformation. Modern scholars estimate 50 million died in the religious violence that followed in persecutions, counter-persecutions and religious wars.

https://www.thetrumpet.com/13544-pope-apologizes-for-killing-protestants

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Yes.  I do.

"from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath." (Lev 23:32 NKJ)

For the "Day of Atonement".

"IT [Day of Atonement] shall be unto you a Sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of month at even, from even to even shall ye celebrate your Sabbath".

The Day of Atonement is on the 10th day of the seventh month, however,  the Children of Israel were to start celebrating it [D.O.A.] on the evening of the 9th day.  If the day started on the evening prior to sunrise there would have been no need for these special instructions pertaining to how the Day of Atonement was to be observed. Nor would it be two days ( the 9th AND the 10th day - it would be considered one ).

Example:

Exodus 16, 23: And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

Perhaps you have another Scripture? 

[Gustave]

"Second, the talmudic innovation of reckoning a day from the eve before suggests a larger view of life. While we may never know what prompted the Rabbis to reconfigure the day, the existential benefit is indisputable. By inaugurating the celebration of Shabbat or a festival at sunset, they have framed a stretch of time that can be ritually filled to heighten the religious experience. At the other end of the day, an eventide that does not mark a boundary between sacred and profane time would tend to be anti-climactic, an appendage of time to be endured till sunrise catches us unawares. To celebrate from sunset to sunset is to experience the passage of time each day consciously and bravely".  Ismar Schorsch
Chancellor Emeritus of the Jewish Theological Seminary...

A well known Jewish Proverb: 

"We should always increase what is holy by adding to it some of the non-holy."

[8thdaypriest]

Constantine was a flaming Antisemitic .  He issued an edict, forbidding Christ followers to celebrate any Christian festival on the same day that a Jewish holy day was kept.  That included the 7th day Sabbath.   Constantine is the one who reconfigured the Sabbath (to Sunday) - the time it started and  the time it ended.  

Genesis 1:5 “God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.” (NRS)

Evening is mentioned FIRST.   First comes evening - the darker part.  Then comes morning - the lighter part - of the repeating 24 hour cycle. 

 Within one 24 hr period, there is only 1 evening, and 1 morning.  This is what we see repeated after each of the first six days.  Why would we conclude that the 7th day - the one especially blessed forever - was somehow a different time period, with a different beginning and ending point, from the first six days?

What's so difficult?

The captives who returned from Babylon were very anxious to keep God's Law, so as to avoid calamity in the future.  Why would their teachers have changed the commands.  That would be to invite God's disfavor.  That doesn't make sense.  

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Constantine was a flaming Antisemitic .  He issued an edict, forbidding Christ followers to celebrate any Christian festival on the same day that a Jewish holy day was kept.  That included the 7th day Sabbath.   Constantine is the one who reconfigured the Sabbath (to Sunday) - the time it started and  the time it ended.  

Genesis 1:5 “God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.” (NRS)

Evening is mentioned FIRST.   First comes evening - the darker part.  Then comes morning - the lighter part - of the repeating 24 hour cycle. 

 Within one 24 hr period, there is only 1 evening, and 1 morning.  This is what we see repeated after each of the first six days.  Why would we conclude that the 7th day - the one especially blessed forever - was somehow a different time period, with a different beginning and ending point, from the first six days?

What's so difficult?

The captives who returned from Babylon were very anxious to keep God's Law, so as to avoid calamity in the future.  Why would their teachers have changed the commands.  That would be to invite God's disfavor.  That doesn't make sense.  

 

Genesis 1, 5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Exodus 12, 6: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

There's nothing difficult about this. The Passover required that on the 14th day of the 1st Hebrew Month, IN THE EVENING, the lamb be killed and roasted over fire. Was the next day spoken of in this text the 16th day or the 15th? 

Biblically - one day ends when the following day arrives - at sunrise.

Genesis 1, 5 proves the opposite of what you're saying. "AND, there was an evening AND there was morning, the first day". The "work" God did was followed by an evening AND a morning AND THAT (morning) closed out the prior day ( which included approximately 12 hours of night ). Day two is described in the same way along with the remaining days of creation. 

There is nothing difficult about this. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Theophilus]

I think what you are trying to say is a bit of a stretch.  By the pattern of the days of creation, even to even would be the 7th Day. You do not have to go find the criteria for the Day of Atonement to understand this.

BTW,

Stephen Bohr has an excellent sermon on Apostolic Succession

 

[phkrause]

On 8/22/2020 at 12:37 PM, Theophilus said:

Stephen Bohr has an excellent sermon on Apostolic Succession

I will watch this, this weekend!! I might have seen this already, but not sure?? There isn't much if anything that I disagree with that he speaks about!

[Theophilus]

His study notes are free now, too. So you can look at those.

https://secretsunsealed.org/study-notes-digital-download/

Edited August 29, 2020 by Theophilus
added link