J H Kellogg & God's Nature

[GHansen]

4 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

Those who reject the Spirit of Prophecy are building on sand indeed!

Dar, EGW asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He responded by saying  "I am in the express image of my Father's person." There is a word in the NT for "form." It's the word from which the English word icon is made. There is nothing in Hebrews 1:3 about a "form." Hebrews 10:1 includes the word image in "contrast" to "shadow." Neither of these words are in verse 1:3. The word "person" is not in verse 1:3 in many versions. Actually you are building on a YouTuber, EGW, and a word that is not even in the text. In that sense, there is not even sand to build upon.

It sounds that you are saying that, as a non-SDA I'm OK if I reject your interpretation of EGW's interpretation of the Bible  but as an SDA  I'm lost if I reject your interpretation of EGW's interpretation. Is that right?

[ReturntoDar]

Your analysis of what the word "person" is far off base. It was Jesus who used the word "person", an english word Ellen White, and any reasonable common man, could understand. She was quoting Him, not the Bible. Your analysis is a classic example of those who, Ellen White says, "gather up" a large number of bible verses to make their case. Typically for something simple, which they make complex. This often leads to a determination that "it is a mystery, we just have to accept it on faith". THIS is exactly what we have done with the nature of God and of Christ (as seen in Fundamental Belief #2). "It's a mystery", SDA leadership tells the membership.

Jesus is the literal Son of God. He comes in the Fathers name, even "the everlasting Father". Jesus is also God (divine and eternal), yet His FATHER is the "one true God" from whom ALL things have their orgination. Including the Holy Spirit.

This is not a mystery. The prophet tells us, "God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God". So simple a 1st grader can understand it, but "learned men" will argue over it. Christ, is not just the Son of God, He is the "express image of His Fathers person".

Amazing how simple this is, yet, it confounds those who refuse to believe and even question the gift of prophecy! This is a serious mistake, continue down this road and it will end in destruction.

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, ReturntoDar said:

Your analysis of what the word "person" is far off base.

One thing I really hate about Adventism is the endless arguments over what the Bible says. I've stated my point as clearly as I can, i.e., Hebrews 1:3 uses words in the original language which are difficult to translate accurately into English; consequently, it is not a good text to lean upon for doctrinal formation. If you disagree, that's up to you. Since we both consider that the other is building upon sand, probably not much to be gained by further wrangling. I wish you well. 

[ReturntoDar]

You keep missing the problem. This is about what ELLEN WHITE quoted JESUS as saying, to her, in english, a language she could understand. It is not about Hebrews says.

This particular Testimony of Jesus, directly to Ellen White is the issue. Your continual use of the Bible in this instance is a distraction. All though, it is apparent that both the Bible and the Testimony of Jesus to Ellen White are in harmony. Because she is a prophet!

I suspect the real issue here is you don't accept Ellen White as a prophet...

[Gustave]

Quote

ReturntoDar said: t is clear that God cannot lie, therefore, He cannot sin. Since Jesus is the "express image" of His Father this would be true of Himself as well. What would have become of the man/God Jesus when upon earth had He sinned? In other words, when Jesus took upon Himself the nature of man, He could have indeed sinned.

Ok, this is a start. 

It is true that God cannot lie or in any way sin. I'm glad you agree with that. 

The next thing to do is to ask what is God. 

Scripture tells us that God is invisible, Spirit and ontologically one. 

You are wrong or incomplete when you claim that Jesus taking upon Himself the nature of man created the possibility of His sinning. 

This is simply ARIANISM. 

"First of all the affair of the impiety and lawlessness of Arius and his followers was discussed in the presence of the
most pious emperor Constantine. It was unanimously agreed that anathemas should be pronounced against his
impious opinion and his blasphemous terms and expressions which he has blasphemously applied to the Son of God,
m saying

 

•  "he is from things that are not", and
• "before he was begotten he was not", and
• "there once was when he was not", saying too that

&

• by his own power the Son of God is capable of evil and goodness, and calling him a creature and a work. Against all this the holy synod pronounced anathemas, and did not allow this impious and abandoned opinion and these blasphemous words even to be heard. Council of Nicea Letter to the Eqyptians 

God is ONE "BEING" and within this one Being are three Persons who are distinct from one another yet fully participate in the ONE substance of whatever it is that God is. The Father isn't God because He's the Father, the Father is God because He is a Person within the ONE BEING which is God, exactly like the Son and the Holy Spirit. To say it anther way the Father isn't God any more than the Son & the Holy Spirit are God. 

The Son isn't a third of God like Ellen White and the SDA Pioneers understood - unlike what they taught there could have never been a rupture in God so that one of the Person's would have eternally become as if they never existed in the 1st place. 

This understanding was possible because the early SDA's considered the pre-Incarnate Christ to be a BEING separate from the Father (who was his own being). In their mind the Father was a self-contained flesh, organ and bone hominid COMPLETELY separate from any other "BEING". In Ellen's mind God was essentially a "committee" where completely separate "BEINGS" were so close in agreement, character and purpose that the separate Beings acted as ONE. 

In other words ,in Ellen's teaching Christ was no more God than Jesus' Disciples were Christ. The following might help illustrate what I'm saying.

 

"THE position that is occupied by Christ in relation to His Father and to this world provides an exhaustless theme for study. He was the only Being who could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. Between Him and His Father there was the unity of perfect understanding and complete equality; They were one in nature, in character. "

&

"The only Being in the universe capable of doing this was the Son of God, who only had oneness with the Father in nature, in character, and in purpose. Voluntarily He offered Himself to come to the human family when the fullness of time should come...." 

The above logic chain is fairly simple, IF Christ, after "offering himself to Incarnate" (which I believe in alien to Scripture) screwed up and sinned the ONLY BEING who could commune with God at that level would have eternally ceased to exist thereby rupturing God or killing off "part of" God.

The Bible seems extremely clear however that God & His purposes CAN'T Fail.

Isaiah 55, 10: For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

In addition to being called the Son of God, Christ is also called the WORD of God. God was very specific in how Salvation was engineered. Christ was said to be the very purpose of God. 

Ephesians 1,9
he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he PURPOSED in Christ

 

Ephesians 1,10
to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out EVERYTHING in conformity with the PURPOSE of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

If you believe the Bible teaches that the SCRIPTURES CANNOT BE BROKEN you are forced to agree that IF the Arian hypothetical of Christ being able to sin and would have sinned EVERY Scripture concerning Christ would have been broken - had this happened Lucifer would have bested God Almighty. 

Because God is pure Spirit and ONE Christ is (and has been) eternally God for the same reason the Father and the Holy Spirit has been eternally God. This is why Jesus said if you have seen Him you HAVE SEEN THE FATHER. What was formally invisible was made visible through the Incarnation. 

 

 

 

[Gustave]

On 2/10/2023 at 6:57 AM, ReturntoDar said:

You keep missing the problem. This is about what ELLEN WHITE quoted JESUS as saying, to her, in english, a language she could understand. It is not about Hebrews says.

This particular Testimony of Jesus, directly to Ellen White is the issue. Your continual use of the Bible in this instance is a distraction. All though, it is apparent that both the Bible and the Testimony of Jesus to Ellen White are in harmony. Because she is a prophet!

I suspect the real issue here is you don't accept Ellen White as a prophet...

 

Ahhh, I recognize this line of reasoning. 

1SM 161; CW 32; The Early Elmshaven Years 426
We are NOT to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. . . . And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, IF such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God

 

Seems as if GHansen is providing you with a logical point which is based on reason but because a flesh organ hominid Father God was (and perhaps still is) a "SPECIAL POINT OF [SDA] Faith" you reject the mass of Scriptures and reasoning . Preferring to snuggle up with the following:

Sabbath Herald, June 18, 1867

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Phillip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father 1" " He that bath seen me bath seen the Father." How ? because Jesus was himself the Father? No; but as he looked just like the Father ; whoever saw the one knew just how the other looked. Here are two twin brothers who look just alike as near as may be. Being separate, a person says to one of them, "I would like to see your brother." He replies, "If you have seen me, you have seen my brother also, because we look just alike." So with Jesus and his Father."

I hope you can see what I was trying to explain about Father God being a self-contained flesh hominid BEING that is separate from Christ who the early Adventists believed was another self-contained flesh hominid BEING. 

[ReturntoDar]

"But (Satan), not content with his position, though honored above the heavenly host, he began to covet the glory with which the Father had invested the Son." {Ms57-1902.4}

Ellen White wad very clear that the Father is indeed a distinct person, with a body. She, and the Bible, are also very clear that His Son is the express image of His Father. This was, and remains, a very special point of our faith, it is indeed a pillar. SDA have rejected this PILLAR TRUTH, that Jesus IS the Son of God and replaced it with the assumption that Jesus is pretending to be God's Son, He is only playing an assigned role. If anyone is moving a pillar, it is the modern Fundamental Belief #2, which states that Jesus IS NOT the Son of God.

What is the origin of this lie that Jesus is not the Son of God? Sin began by Satan claiming that he wanted to be honored in the same way Jesus was being honored. Satan was in essence, denying that Jesus was the Son of God.

Jesus is God because He is the express image of Him from whom He was begotten, He comes to us in the name of God. The one true God, says the Bible is God, the Father of Christ.

[ReturntoDar]

Gustave claims Jesus could NOT have sinned while on earth as a man. What saith the Lord on that point?

The divine attributes that Christ possessed in His oneness with God (including his eternal self-existence), were at risk when He came to this earth. Remember that Christ risked all; “tempted like as we are,” he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. {GCB December 1, 1895, Art. B, par. 23}
Christ has found His pearl of great price in lost, perishing souls. He sold all that He had to come into possession, even engaged to do the work and run the risk of losing His own life in the conflict. {Lt119-1895.32}

It was the Father who raised Christ from the grave. "He became subject to temptation, endangering, as it were, His divine attributes". {Lt5-1900.5} Jesus risked everything.

The resurrection of Christ from the dead was the Father’s seal to the mission of Christ. It was a public expression of his entire satisfaction in the atoning work. He accepted the sacrifice that Jesus had made on our behalf. It was everything that God required, perfect and complete. {RH January 29, 1895, par. 2}

[Gustave]

20 minutes ago, ReturntoDar said:

Gustave claims Jesus could NOT have sinned while on earth as a man. What saith the Lord on that point?

The divine attributes that Christ possessed in His oneness with God (including his eternal self-existence), were at risk when He came to this earth. Remember that Christ risked all; “tempted like as we are,” he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. {GCB December 1, 1895, Art. B, par. 23}
Christ has found His pearl of great price in lost, perishing souls. He sold all that He had to come into possession, even engaged to do the work and run the risk of losing His own life in the conflict. {Lt119-1895.32}

It was the Father who raised Christ from the grave. "He became subject to temptation, endangering, as it were, His divine attributes". {Lt5-1900.5} Jesus risked everything.

The resurrection of Christ from the dead was the Father’s seal to the mission of Christ. It was a public expression of his entire satisfaction in the atoning work. He accepted the sacrifice that Jesus had made on our behalf. It was everything that God required, perfect and complete. {RH January 29, 1895, par. 2}

Jesus was the God-man. 

God became man without ceasing to be man. 

Jesus was A PERSON with two natures. 

Jesus was not two persons. I.E. the God Jesus and the Man Jesus.

 

[Gustave]

Quote

ReturntoDar quotes Ellen: The divine attributes that Christ possessed in His oneness with God (including his eternal self-existence), were at risk when He came to this earth. Remember that Christ risked all; “tempted like as we are,” he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. {GCB December 1, 1895, Art. B, par. 23}
Christ has found His pearl of great price in lost, perishing souls. He sold all that He had to come into possession, even engaged to do the work and run the risk of losing His own life in the conflict. {Lt119-1895.32}

 

According to SDA theology (at least when Ellen was alive) Christ's divine attributes were always on loan and provided He towed the rope they were his to keep (provided He didn't screw up).

Ellen White MS 99,1903 page 3,4
He had infinite power ONLY because He was perfectly obedient to His Father's will

Had Christ "BROKEN THE SCRIPTURES" Ellen claims He would have eternally ceased to exist. 

 

Ellen White, SDA GBC 1 Dec 1895
Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul

The above is contrasted with Jesus said:

Luke 24,44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL THINGS MUST BE FULFILLED, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me

Evidently not all things had to be fulfilled which was written in the law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Christ. In fact had Ellen's (And Arius's) hypothetical been realized NOTHING would have fulfilled as Lucifer would have made a mockery of ALL OF IT. Particularly.

"For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it". Isaiah 55, 10

Luke 2,25
And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; Because my eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples

 

2nd Chron 19,7
Wherefore now let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is NO iniquity with the Lord our God

Daniel 2,44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
 

Isaiah 42,1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law

And somewhere around 100 additional equally explicit texts that all say Salvation was never a matter of IF but only WHEN God Himself would come and save. 

Isaiah 35,4
Say to the fainthearted: Take courage, and fear not: behold your God WILL bring the revenge of recompense: God himself WILL come and WILL save you.Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.Then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb shall be free: for waters are broken out in the desert, and streams in the wilderness

This demonstrates the hold that Ellen has on you as it appears it would be better if Scripture was incorrect rather than Ellen White not be a prophet? What percentage chance is there of an impossibility being possible? 

 

 

[ReturntoDar]

Gustave says, "Ellen's (And Arius's) hypothetical..." Prophets do not offer "hypothetical" counsel or statements. Once again we see the REAL ISSUE here is simple: Ellen White is a prophet, just as all the prophets in the bible were. She is inspired by the same source, the Holy Spirit.

Wow, I am stunnded. A open denial of the gift of prophecy as demonstrated in the life of Ellen White. The first step in apostasy is to deny that Ellen White IS a prophet.

It appears that this website, Gregory among them, deny that Ellen White is in fact a prophet? I hope I am wrong, because this is a salvation question. Ellen White is either: a prophet, or she is not. Choose you this day whom you will serve. The light, or the darkness.

[ReturntoDar]

First Step Toward Apostasy
"One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan’s banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the testimonies of God’s Spirit". Letter 156, 1903. {PM 360.1}

The testimony of God's Spirit: This is the Spirit of Prophecy as seen in the work and writings of Ellen White.

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, ReturntoDar said:

Gustave says, "Ellen's (And Arius's) hypothetical..." Prophets do not offer "hypothetical" counsel or statements. Once again we see the REAL ISSUE here is simple: Ellen White is a prophet, just as all the prophets in the bible were. She is inspired by the same source, the Holy Spirit.

Wow, I am stunnded. A open denial of the gift of prophecy as demonstrated in the life of Ellen White. The first step in apostasy is to deny that Ellen White IS a prophet.

It appears that this website, Gregory among them, deny that Ellen White is in fact a prophet? I hope I am wrong, because this is a salvation question. Ellen White is either: a prophet, or she is not. Choose you this day whom you will serve. The light, or the darkness.

 

Prophets that speak contrary to Scripture absolutely offer hypothetical council and statements. 

 

We are repeatedly told in Scripture that God sees to it that His will and plans are COMPLETED. 

We are repeatedly told in Scripture that Christ was the very purpose of God. 

Isaiah 55, 11: So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall NOT RETURN TO ME EMPTY, but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PURPOSE, AND SHALL SUCEED IN THE THING for which I sent it.

 

Psalm 119, 89: For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven

 

 

Job 42,2: I know that thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of thine can be thwarted.

 

 

Daniel 4, 34: At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnez′zar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives for ever; for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and he does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What doest thou?”

And somewhere south of 50 or more Scriptures which all affirm the same thing. God wins, all the time, period.

Ephesians 1,3:  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.  He destined us in love^[] to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,  to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.  In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us.  For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ  as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite^[d] all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.  In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,  we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.

Yeah, I'm in open denial whereas this matter is concerned. 

[ReturntoDar]

Wow, thank you for revealing your true position. I now see clearly there are a number of posters, and staff, who do not believe Ellen White is a prophet. I knew there were many within the church who had questions, or were not sure. But it is evident that at least some are, are sure: they deny the gift of prophecy as seen in Ellen White.

This makes it impossible for the Holy Spirit to reveal truth. This is why so many cannot see and accept that Jesus is in fact the literal Son of God. This fact, He being the Son of God, is the very foundation of the gospel. To deny this is catastrophic to a walk with Jesus. How come they can't see this??

One word: Laodicea. The Jews were in a similar condition, they were in the time of Jesus God's people, the true Church. Yet, they misunderstood the bible, and Jesus and in due time put Him to death. THIS HISTORY is being repeated. In due time the worst enemies of Seventh-day Adventists will be Seventh-day Adventists in apostasy, who sincerely believe they are doing God's work. They WILL persecute those who follow Christ, no matter what the cost. And like the apostles of His day, these will be persecuted, hunted, removed and finally put to death, by Seventh-day Adventists!

There will be a remnant of the remnant, a small group, just as it was in the times of Jesus, who understand and will follow Him, no matter the cost. The great bulk of the membership of the SDA Church will apostize, just as it was in the days of the Jews.

[Theophilus]

49 minutes ago, ReturntoDar said:

Wow, thank you for revealing your true position. I now see clearly there are a number of posters, and staff, who do not believe Ellen White is a prophet. I knew there were many within the church who had questions, or were not sure. But it is evident that at least some are, are sure: they deny the gift of prophecy as seen in Ellen White.

 

One word: Laodicea. The Jews were in a similar condition, they were in the time of Jesus God's people, the true Church. Yet, they misunderstood the bible, and Jesus and in due time put Him to death. THIS HISTORY is being repeated. In due time the worst enemies of Seventh-day Adventists will be Seventh-day Adventists in apostasy, who sincerely believe they are doing God's work. They WILL persecute those who follow Christ, no matter what the cost. And like the apostles of His day, these will be persecuted, hunted, removed and finally put to death, by Seventh-day Adventists!

There will be a remnant of the remnant, a small group, just as it was in the times of Jesus, who understand and will follow Him, no matter the cost. The great bulk of the membership of the SDA Church will apostize, just as it was in the days of the Jews.

I'd bet money that the last two paragraphs on your post here are agreed upon by most SDAs.

And I believe Jesus is the Son of God. And I don't understand why you discount your fellow SDAs as not having the Spirit.

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, ReturntoDar said:

Wow, thank you for revealing your true position. I now see clearly there are a number of posters, and staff, who do not believe Ellen White is a prophet. I knew there were many within the church who had questions, or were not sure. But it is evident that at least some are, are sure: they deny the gift of prophecy as seen in Ellen White.

This makes it impossible for the Holy Spirit to reveal truth. This is why so many cannot see and accept that Jesus is in fact the literal Son of God. This fact, He being the Son of God, is the very foundation of the gospel. To deny this is catastrophic to a walk with Jesus. How come they can't see this??

One word: Laodicea. The Jews were in a similar condition, they were in the time of Jesus God's people, the true Church. Yet, they misunderstood the bible, and Jesus and in due time put Him to death. THIS HISTORY is being repeated. In due time the worst enemies of Seventh-day Adventists will be Seventh-day Adventists in apostasy, who sincerely believe they are doing God's work. They WILL persecute those who follow Christ, no matter what the cost. And like the apostles of His day, these will be persecuted, hunted, removed and finally put to death, by Seventh-day Adventists!

There will be a remnant of the remnant, a small group, just as it was in the times of Jesus, who understand and will follow Him, no matter the cost. The great bulk of the membership of the SDA Church will apostize, just as it was in the days of the Jews.

I'm not SDA. 

To be frank I've met many SDA's that believe Ellen White was a prophet but NOT in the sense that you are advocating. 

I can tell you this, if one develops their Christology while they are Arian its assured that by the time it comes out the other end the product will be alien to Orthodox. 

[ReturntoDar]

MOST SDA say they believe Jesus is the Son of God!!! What is the SDA Church official position on that question?

1980, Fundamental Belief #2, Jesus is NOT the Son of God. Those who voted for this change perfectly understood that there was NO SOP statement, NO Bible verse that specifically states this. They fully understood that it was a position based on an assumption. The discussion of just who Jesus is goes back to the 400's. Catholicism made the first move in accepting that Jesus wasn't really the Son of God. Now in spite of SDA loudly proclaiming there version of the Trinity is "different", this one thing they have in common: Jesus is not the Son of God.

You can say He is all day, but at the end of the day, this is NOT the official position of the SDA Church. And denying that, WILL get up in trouble. As evidenced on this very website, where those like myself who believe Jesus really IS the Son of God, are scoffed at, reviled, and publicly shamed.

So be it, the truth remains, regardless of the consequences. With pen and voice I will proclaim it.

[ReturntoDar]

Gustave, the fact that you do not claim to be SDA offers a ray of hope in your case! Those who ARE SDA and reject the prophet, are on a path of destruction. At some point, God knows when and if, you (and SDA) will have to deal with this question. Throughout history God's prophets have been rejected, nothing new under the sun.

And by the way, many, many SDA are not sure, or even openly denigrate the gift of prophecy as seen in Ellen White. Many say she is a terrific author. Or a great "administrator". Or a wonderful person, etc. But many stop short of fully embracing her work as that of a prophet. Sadly, this is typical at every SDA church in the land, from the highest to the lowest levels of members and leadership.

[Gustave]

ReturntoDar,

The following video is short and to the point. Christ really IS God's only begotten Son. 

 

[ReturntoDar]

Gustave, the fact that you do not claim to be SDA offers a ray of hope in your case! Those who ARE SDA and reject the prophet, are on a path of destruction. At some point, God knows when and if, you (and SDA) will have to deal with this question. Throughout history God's prophets have been rejected, nothing new under the sun.

And by the way, many, many SDA are not sure, or even openly denigrate the gift of prophecy as seen in Ellen White. Many say she is a terrific author. Or a great "administrator". Or a wonderful person, etc. But many stop short of fully embracing her work as that of a prophet. Sadly, this is typical at every SDA church in the land, from the highest to the lowest levels of members and leadership.

[ReturntoDar]

There is a problem with the above video Gustave. Who IS God? Trinitarians believe there are THREE gods. There is a "God Head", composed of three members. God, the Father of Christ. His Son, and His (His, the FATHERS), Holy Spirit, which Jesus shares. Only ONE of these is the "one true God", the Father of Christ. These three are basic Catholicism AND it is basic Seventh-day Adventism. This makes a fourth God, without personality, God becomes a "concept', a "best guess". Without body, without person, a "spirit" of some kind, not a person, not a being. This is god by committee.

In this regard, there is no difference between Catholic, apostate Christianity and SDA. While both religions acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, they have created a problem: WHO is the ONE God of these three divine beings? Neither group have a clear answer on this, the default position becomes: "It's a mystery, we can't understand it". It's not a mystery! The Father brought forth (begat) His Son, before anything was made. He was begotten in eternity, before time even existed.

By the way, Ellen White tells us WHEN "time began" (when sin entered) and when "time will end" (when sin is over). When time is over, we return to eternity. Which cannot be measured in decades, centuries, millinia, etc. It was "eternity" before, and it will be "eternity" once again.

Anti-Trinitarians interpret this to mean that at some point in time, Jesus came into existence. Some say, when He came to earth. I do not hold to these views, with either Catholic or SDA. Jesus was brought forth in eternity, before "time" began. Thus His life cannot be measured in time. What IS "time" to a being who has no beginning, and no end? It simply does not apply. God, the Father of Christ is without beginning, He IS "eternity" in every regard. Jesus, being the express image of His Father is in the same way, eternal, no beginning, no end, "time" does not apply and cannot be reckoned.

Jesus, being the express image of His Father, comes to us in His Fathers name. His many names, even "the everlasting Father" is a name that Isaiah calls Jesus!  Jesus created all things! How? Because He is the express image of His Father, He has that power. Here is the mystery: Jesus is eternal and yet, He is begotten. THIS is the part that confuses virtually the whole world. How is THAT possible becomes the question. Not for us to ask, man is incapable of rational thought without "time". Time is irrelevant to God. Simple, actually.

There is ONE God, the Father of Christ. He has a representative, HIS Holy Spirit. Jesus is God's Son. The "God Head" is NOT "God", this is a serious mistake, and it is NOT a mystery!

[Gustave]

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ReturntoDar said:  There is a problem with the above video Gustave. Who IS God? Trinitarians believe there are THREE gods. There is a "God Head", composed of three members. God, the Father of Christ. His Son, and His (His, the FATHERS), Holy Spirit, which Jesus shares. Only ONE of these is the "one true God", the Father of Christ. These three are basic Catholicism AND it is basic Seventh-day Adventism.

No that's not what we believe. 

We believe God is without body or parts, we believe God to be Spirit one single Spirit. 

Within this one Spiritual Being (which is God) are three distinct Persons and NONE of the Three had a body until the Incarnation of God The Son when God became man without ceasing to be God. In the Person of God the Son human nature was added to the Devine nature. The natures are perfectly united and NOT mixed or blended as Ellen White said. 

As finite creations of an infinite God we can't fathom how this all worked but we have the Scriptures which informs us along with Sacred Tradition. 

Rest assured, Orthodox Christians, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. do not believe in three God's 

[ReturntoDar]

 SDA, apostate Christianity, and Catholics all agree. Their "one God" is actually a committee of three gods, the God Head. This god of three has no personality and no body. This is a "three headed god", composed of the "God Head". All three members of the God Head are divine, but divinity does not mean all three ARE God. The Bible is exceedingly clear on this point, it says, "There is ONE God", not three. NO WHERE in the bible does it say there are THREE Gods. NO WHERE in the Bible is God said to be composed of three. Jesus is fully God in all respects, being the "express image" of His Father. Life of Himself, unborrowed, underived, eternal, yet, the SON of God.

How to overcome this delimna? The ASSUMPTION is that "god" must be a "spirit" since all three members of the God Head are all gods. Take the word of God "just as it reads". There is ONE God, not three. This One God has no beginning, no end, He is eternal, as is His Son and His representative. These are not "lessor gods", there are members of the family of the ONE TRUE God, from whom all things came. Who created all things? God, the Father of Christ, THROUGH His SON. Who, when He was brought forth, was in the express image of His Father. "Let us make man in our own image", said God (the Father of Christ). Who then shaped and made Adam? Jesus of course. And the Holy Spirit hovered over the waters and agree with the others, it was very good.

"Rest assured, Orthodox Christians, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. do not believe in three God's", says Gustave. This is a common misconception, even many SDA say Jesus is God's Son. But in fact, what they ALL believe is that there ARE THREE gods. SDA, Catholic, Christians, all of them believe this. God by committee!

[Gustave]

50 minutes ago, ReturntoDar said:

 SDA, apostate Christianity, and Catholics all agree. Their "one God" is actually a committee of three gods, the God Head. This god of three has no personality and no body. This is a "three headed god", composed of the "God Head". All three members of the God Head are divine, but divinity does not mean all three ARE God. The Bible is exceedingly clear on this point, it says, "There is ONE God", not three. NO WHERE in the bible does it say there are THREE Gods. NO WHERE in the Bible is God said to be composed of three. Jesus is fully God in all respects, being the "express image" of His Father. Life of Himself, unborrowed, underived, eternal, yet, the SON of God.

How to overcome this delimna? The ASSUMPTION is that "god" must be a "spirit" since all three members of the God Head are all gods. Take the word of God "just as it reads". There is ONE God, not three. This One God has no beginning, no end, He is eternal, as is His Son and His representative. These are not "lessor gods", there are members of the family of the ONE TRUE God, from whom all things came. Who created all things? God, the Father of Christ, THROUGH His SON. Who, when He was brought forth, was in the express image of His Father. "Let us make man in our own image", said God (the Father of Christ). Who then shaped and made Adam? Jesus of course. And the Holy Spirit hovered over the waters and agree with the others, it was very good.

"Rest assured, Orthodox Christians, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. do not believe in three God's", says Gustave. This is a common misconception, even many SDA say Jesus is God's Son. But in fact, what they ALL believe is that there ARE THREE gods. SDA, Catholic, Christians, all of them believe this. God by committee!

Your arguments are not new, they show that you are unaware of the reasons the early Church used the language it did. In the Council of Acts when the 1st big issue presented itself to the Church we don't read about how Peter or James gaped their mouth open and had their eyes rolled back in their heads and 30 minutes later state they had been in vision and God said such and such.

These kinds of sensational parlor tricks were popular in the 19th century and frankly folks were very gullible at that time. Never take the easy way out - study, learn about history even if it may dispute what you cherish as the truth.  

[ReturntoDar]

I am quite familiar with the history of the Trinity issues, which began in the 400's AD. The SDA pioneers were very clear where they stood on this issue. It was only in 1980 when the SDA Church, in essence, joined hands with the Catholics in officially accepting the three gods false doctrine. Again, the bible is clear: there is ONE true God. This is the Father of Christ, NOT a committee of three gods. This make a fourth god, one without body or person. As you say, a "spirit". THIS IS SPIRITUALISM. Once accepted, it is almost impossible to recover from. God is a person, His Son is a person, they have bodies. Jesus showed His body to Moses in the cleft of the rock. The Holy Spirit is without body, though fully divine, He is not "God" (the Father of Christ) He is God's representative.

I am sad SDA have fallen into the "spiritualism" trap. They say there understanding of God is different than Catholic, but it is not. Their god is identical, three gods, not one. Same for Christianity in general, three gods they proclaim to be one. But that false god is a "concept", and "idea" a "best guess". Because they (you, them, all) cannot explain it, nor does the Bible explain it, they say, "It's a mystery, you have to accept it on faith". I say, "Show me from the Bible where it says this". They cannot, you cannot, Christians cannot. Jesus has a Father, His Father is the one true God.