J H Kellogg & God's Nature

[ReturntoDar]

"The enmity that God has put in our hearts against deceptive practices must be kept alive, because these practices endanger the souls of those who do not hate them. All deceptive dealings, all untruthfulness regarding the Father and the Son, by which their characters are presented in a false light, are to be recognized as grievous sins." {Ms72-1904.19}

Who is God, and who is His Son is of the utmost importance. This is a salvatonal issue of the highest regard.

[GHansen]

21 hours ago, Gustave said:

es, it does include it. I suppose that's why it says back 'parts'. 

Gustave, If we look at the context of Exodus 33:23, light is shed. Moses asked to see God's glory. God tells him to stand on a rock God then says my hand will cover you while I pass by. You cannot see my face and live. As God passes by, he removes his hand and Moses sees his back.  Obvious here what happened. Maybe you suppose God doesn't wear clothes; consequently, Moses would see his buttocks as he saw the rest of his back. A bare buttocks is a sign of disgrace and shame in Scripture. Simple explanation is that Moses was"blindfolded" [hidden by God's hand] until God passed by. The "blindfold" was removed and Moses saw the back of God.  

[ReturntoDar]

Well stated GHansen, it is really very simple.

By the way, who is this God that showed Himself to Moses? The one true God or His Son? “Let the missionaries of the cross proclaim that there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, who is Jesus Christ the Son of the Infinite God. This needs to be proclaimed throughout every church in our land.”{Ms40-1891.78}

The Bible and EGW say one true God and His Son: 1 Timothy 2:5,  1 Corinthians 8:6, John 17:3, PP, 124.1; ST (Signs) Aug. 12 1889, par.1; Lt12-1893. par. 46.

"While we are favorably situated, let us make use of every opportunity to know the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent." {YI December 21, 1893, par. 5} God sent us Jesus Christ! Are God and Jesus one? Of course! Not only in agreement on all things, in perfect harmony, but Jesus is literally of the SAME SUBSTANCE of His Father. He was quite literally begotten, of His Father, from whom all things originate. And yet, Jesus IS eternal, the express image of His literal Father in every way.

[Gustave]

15 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, If we look at the context of Exodus 33:23, light is shed. Moses asked to see God's glory. God tells him to stand on a rock God then says my hand will cover you while I pass by. You cannot see my face and live. As God passes by, he removes his hand and Moses sees his back.  Obvious here what happened. Maybe you suppose God doesn't wear clothes; consequently, Moses would see his buttocks as he saw the rest of his back. A bare buttocks is a sign of disgrace and shame in Scripture. Simple explanation is that Moses was"blindfolded" [hidden by God's hand] until God passed by. The "blindfold" was removed and Moses saw the back of God.  

I agree with you that what you are saying above was what Moses was saying and also what ancient Israel understood as well as Jews understand up to today - my point was that the SDA's throughout Ellen White's life (and well past) took a vastly different approach and believed that Father God had buttocks, a small intestine and every other organ one would find in an autopsy in a healthy normal man.

 I'm not thinking we are in disagreement on the meaning of Exodus 33 and it sounds like you don't disagree that SDA's throughout Ellen White's ministry and years after her death believed Father God had a body of flesh with every part (external and internal) that a man would have. 

 

ReturntoDar,

The SDA Pioneers concurred (and Ellen White agreed) that God was the Father & Jesus was His Son - according to them Jesus wasn't God any more than Christ's Disciples were Christ. It sounds like this is what you're saying and if it is you are right to claim this is what the SDA's taught when Ellen White was alive. 

This is heretical teaching by the way. 

 

 

[ReturntoDar]

God, from whom all things originated, including His Son, does indeed have a body! He is everywhere present, as is Jesus, by their representative, the Holy Spirit. The bible repeatedly declares that God begat His Son, the same substance as Himself. The SOP declares the same. It is astounding that many see this as "heretical"! That charge is against the bible and Ellen White, not me! What is heretical is that the modern SDA Church continually denies that God is the Father of Christ, in spite of the clear evidence. No wonder Jesus said to Peter, it was the Holy Spirit that revealed this to him. The simple things, that God is the Father of Christ, confound those who have ears but refuse to hear (weigh the evidence).

[Theophilus]

The argument of whether God has buttocks or not  is by far the weirdest theological argument I've ever seen.

 

[ReturntoDar]

Theophilus, you nailed it!

 

[ReturntoDar]

Bear in mind, whatever is said of Christs Father, applies equally to His Son. Jesus personally replied to Ellen White that He was the express image of His Father. When the Father spoke and said, "This is my beloved Son..." there are many SDA who would reply: "not really". He was just pretending to have a Son, and His Son was just playing a role. THAT is actually the official position of the SDA Church today!

It appears to me that many, if not most, of the pioneers concluded that since Jesus was "begotten" He therefore must have had a beginning at some point. Ellen White corrected this mistake, stating that there never was a time when the Father and the Son were not together. She was equally clear that the Father brought forth His Son, the express image of Himself. It was the Father who created this earth and all things! How? Through His Son. That Jesus and His Father are "one", is most often presented as "one" in spirit, thought, goals, etc. It's deeper than that, Jesus is of the same substance of His Father. In the same respect that Eve was "one" with Adam, it means much more than one in thought, goals, attitudes, and all that. Eve was literally a part of Adam. Jesus is literally a part of His Father. Eve was was submissive to Adam, Jesus is submissive to His Father. Eternal, yet begotten? God, and yet, God's Son. Peter understood these things...

Long discussions trying to rationalize these apparent conflicts is exactly the problem SDA created for themselves in 1980 when they officially declared that Jesus IS God He is not really God's Son. Now THAT is Ellen White: Jesus is God's Son, the bible, Jesus is God's Son, SDA, Jesus is NOT God's Son. Choose carefully whom you will serve in whom you choose to believe: the bible, Ellen White, or the reasoning of men with no clear "thus saith the Lord". This IS a salvation issue. SDA, since 1980, are in the same boat with the Jews in the time of Jesus, denying that Christ is God's Son. And unsurpringly, the majority of the membership fall right in line with the "scribes and pharisees" telling them just what they are to believe!! History repeats...

[Gustave]

10 hours ago, Theophilus said:

The argument of whether God has buttocks or not  is by far the weirdest theological argument I've ever seen.

 

 

According to the SDA Church from inception to well past the death of Ellen White It WAS the great theological truth upon which every truth of the Bible rested. Yeah, you're right to identify this as weird. 

 

[GHansen]

6 hours ago, Gustave said:

 

According to the SDA Church from inception to well past the death of Ellen White It WAS the great theological truth upon which every truth of the Bible rested. Yeah, you're right to identify this as weird. 

 

Got any proof of that?

[GHansen]

Material r/t 1888, don't recall any discussion of that issue. Don't recall any discussion of that topic at the 1919 Bible Conference, either. Never saw it mentioned in any of the early pioneer books either, e.g., Smith's "D&R," Bordeau's, "Living Holiness, J. White's "Bible Adventism, "Haskell's "Cross and its Shadow." 

Don't recall EGW mentioning it either. Maybe I forgot?

[ReturntoDar]

You didn't forget, it never happened.

[GHansen]

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

According to the SDA Church from inception to well past the death of Ellen White It WAS the great theological truth upon which every truth of the Bible rested. Yeah, you're right to identify this as weird. 

Dar, Gustave has supplied some surprising proofs to some of his remarks. He may have some here. To suggest that God's buttocks is the great theological upon which Adventism rested until well after the death of EGW is quite a claim to make. I've seen books from the pioneers on the sanctuary, the state of the dead, sanctification, Daniel and Revelation, the law of God, justification, but never one on God's anatomical parts. Gustave may surprise us. He has before.

[Gustave]

58 minutes ago, GHansen said:

Material r/t 1888, don't recall any discussion of that issue. Don't recall any discussion of that topic at the 1919 Bible Conference, either. Never saw it mentioned in any of the early pioneer books either, e.g., Smith's "D&R," Bordeau's, "Living Holiness, J. White's "Bible Adventism, "Haskell's "Cross and its Shadow." 

Don't recall EGW mentioning it either. Maybe I forgot?

During the 1919 Bible Conference it would have been saturated within every element of Seventh-day Adventism. There wouldn't have been a need to discuss it in the context of determining the truth or falsity of it - it was believed militantly. To deny the P,O,G. was to deny Father God, God's Son Michael the archangel, the 1st 5 Books of the Bible, all the Prophets and even the devil himself. 

 

Sabbath Herald, October 8, 1903 (volume 80, #40 )
OF late the question has repeatedly come to me, Does it make any real difference whether we believe in the personality of God, as long as we believe in God? My answer invariably is, It depends altogether upon the standpoint from which we view it. If from. the Spiritualist's, ,the Christian Scientist's, the Universalist's, or if from the standpoint of any other " ist " or " ism," it makes but little or no difference. But from the standpoint of Seventh-day Adventists it makes all the difference in the world. No man who is a Seventh-day Adventist can understandingly take that position; neither can 'a Seventh-day Adventist 'hold that position for a moment. In it is involved a denial of the " Father and the Son," the law of Moses, the prophets, the psalms, the holy angels, the personality of the devil, and all that is according to sound doctrine...........The doctrine of the personality of God is the fundamental doctrine of the Scriptures.

Previous to the above 1930 quote the SDA's repeatedly castigated the Baptists, the Eastern Orthodox, The Methodists, the Lutherans and other Churches for their departure from the truth (that Father God had a body of flesh) into the lies of the Papacy (The Trinity Doctriine) which according to SDA's at the time destroyed the flesh body of Father God. 

In descending order I could continue to quote the Sabbath Herald and other SDA Publications that essentially say the same thing  - I could continue to go back and quote Ellen White where she said that the P.O.G. was one of the Fundamental Pillar Doctrines of the SDA Church. Continuing even further back to the antitrinitarian founders of the Church that really sledge-hammered this teaching into the SDA Laity. 

I think I've collected all the statements about the P,O.G. made in the Sabbath Hearld, Ellen White and the other SDA periodicals so I can share easily enough. 

 

[Gustave]

Dar, 

I want to clearly state that I don't believe the SDA Church currently holds this position - I've not heard any contemporary Seventh-day Advent insisting that rejection of the P.O.G. equates to Pantheism and rejection of the "Sabbath God". I'm only saying that the P.O.G. was enforced from the inception of the Church into possibly as late as 1939. I've collected some statements in the early to mid 1950's where SDA were bemoaning that no one wanted to talk about the P.O.G. Doctrine any longer. I want to be clear about that. 

[ReturntoDar]

Two thoughts on this Gustave. The POG issue was paramount to the pionneers and of course to Ellen White. Discussion of his "buttocks" is entirely disrespectful on every level. God, the FATHER of Christ, as the pioneers and Ellen White so firmly believed, is and remains the One True God. As per bible and SOP. The remarkable change that occured dates to 1980, and FB#2. Today, when the bible says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased", FB#2 says, "That is not actually TRUE." The essence of this is just this: the SDA Church is calling God, the Father of Christ, a liar. LET. THAT. SINK. IN. They have destroyed the personality of God and flat out rejected the bible and SOP statements concerning WHO God actually is. Ask anybody in your local Church today, WHO is God. You will get a variety of answers, some will be very close to Kelloggs take. Our official position is that God is a committee of three. He is a "spirit", a "concept". This is Kellogg, absolutely Kellogg. God is in the flowers, the trees, etc. FB#2 absolutely destroys the personality of God.

When you see it (and most won't) you be appalled at what we have done. We are literally saying the bible and Ellen White (THEE Testimony of Jesus Himself) as fundamentally mistaken (read lying). There is no doubt THIS IS the omega doctrine, it is indeed what Ellen White said about it being "most startling". We have destroyed the great sacrifice Christs Father made in allowing His Son to come and die that you might live. There is no issue of greater importance than the POG. Our people, to a large degree don't even know WHO God is.

Early Writings: Jesus talking to Ellen White, said He is the express image of His Father. Ellen White said she saw the Father get up from the throne (not His physical body, which was enshrouded in glorious light), step onto a chairiot, move to the Most Holy Place and their He sat down. God, is very real, a body, just like His Son. He, THEY, are "present everywhere", but HOW? By their Holy Spirit, who is without body. Who created the worlds? Ellen White tells us, GOD, the Father of Christ. HOW? THROUGH His Son, who God made to be equal to Himself in all regards. Divine, eternal, yet begotten and brought forth. If you have seen (know of) Jesus, then you have seen (know of) His Father.

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

Two thoughts on this Gustave. The POG issue was paramount to the pionneers and of course to Ellen White. Discussion of his "buttocks" is entirely disrespectful on every level. God, the FATHER of Christ, as the pioneers and Ellen White so firmly believed, is and remains the One True God. As per bible and SOP. The remarkable change that occured dates to 1980, and FB#2. Today, when the bible says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased", FB#2 says, "That is not actually TRUE." The essence of this is just this: the SDA Church is calling God, the Father of Christ, a liar. LET. THAT. SINK. IN. They have destroyed the personality of God and flat out rejected the bible and SOP statements concerning WHO God actually is. Ask anybody in your local Church today, WHO is God. You will get a variety of answers, some will be very close to Kelloggs take. Our official position is that God is a committee of three. He is a "spirit", a "concept". This is Kellogg, absolutely Kellogg. God is in the flowers, the trees, etc. FB#2 absolutely destroys the personality of God.

When you see it (and most won't) you be appalled at what we have done. We are literally saying the bible and Ellen White (THEE Testimony of Jesus Himself) as fundamentally mistaken (read lying). There is no doubt THIS IS the omega doctrine, it is indeed what Ellen White said about it being "most startling". We have destroyed the great sacrifice Christs Father made in allowing His Son to come and die that you might live. There is no issue of greater importance than the POG. Our people, to a large degree don't even know WHO God is.

Early Writings: Jesus talking to Ellen White, said He is the express image of His Father. Ellen White said she saw the Father get up from the throne (not His physical body, which was enshrouded in glorious light), step onto a chairiot, move to the Most Holy Place and their He sat down. God, is very real, a body, just like His Son. He, THEY, are "present everywhere", but HOW? By their Holy Spirit, who is without body. Who created the worlds? Ellen White tells us, GOD, the Father of Christ. HOW? THROUGH His Son, who God made to be equal to Himself in all regards. Divine, eternal, yet begotten and brought forth. If you have seen (know of) Jesus, then you have seen (know of) His Father.

It's not only disrespectful, but also heretical - to affirm that God has "parts". 

To be crystal clear here the P.O.G. Doctrine as believed and promulgated by the SDA Church during Ellen's lifetime was defined to the degree that God the Father was a flesh & bone hominid that possessed EVERY member and organ Adam had both inside and outside his body. 

The teaching was that Michael the archangel looked exactly like the Father and that Lucifer the archangel looked so close to Michael literally only the Father could tell them apart by looking at them. 

Speaking of watering things down - do you, Dar, believe that Father God has testicles, a liver and spleen and every other member and part that Adam had prior to being ejected from the Garden of Eden? I'd be interested in hearing your answer. 

As far as God having parts:

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Trinity Doctrine IS THE OMEGA. Do I have that right? 

[ReturntoDar]

The trinity doctrine is a HUGE distraction, as is FB#2! The question for all is: do you believe God is the Father of Christ? There is a time and place for a trinity discussion, but unless you understand the relationship between God (the Father of Christ) and Christ (the Son of God) then there is little hope of progress on either that question or FB#2. The trinity and the current (as of 1980) Fundamental beliefs BOTH have major and very significant issues! Step 1. Do our people even know WHO God is? Ask someone in your local Church. What will they say? What does it mean, in Church, when the name "God" is constantly thrown around as having application to,,, well,,, one of them? All of them? Who is this nebulous god of which you speak? The committee? His Spirit? His Son? The Father of WHO exactly? Confusion reigns. This is ESPECIALLY true of our young people raised up in our school and churches. In particular, ask the young people WHO God is. This is something so essential to the gospel message they should have learned this at their mothers knee. But many, dare I say most have no clear concept of WHO God is. Does He even have a body? Does He have a personality? Does He have a personhood or is He just a nebulous concept of three Gods? I was astonished when I started asking WHO and got so many different answers. That was a wake up call, wow, our people, my people, don't even know who God is! And I ask myself, how in the world did we get to this point??? Answer, after careful consideration and study: THIS is the omega we were warned about, and few even recognize it. And only recently did I find that I am not alone in this quandry, asking these questions. There are many... and they are NOT off-shoots or anti-trinitarians, they are solid SDA members sighing and crying for what we, as a people, have become.

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, ReturntoDar said:

The trinity doctrine is a HUGE distraction, as is FB#2! The question for all is: do you believe God is the Father of Christ? There is a time and place for a trinity discussion, but unless you understand the relationship between God (the Father of Christ) and Christ (the Son of God) then there is little hope of progress on either that question or FB#2. The trinity and the current (as of 1980) Fundamental beliefs BOTH have major and very significant issues! Step 1. Do our people even know WHO God is? Ask someone in your local Church. What will they say? What does it mean, in Church, when the name "God" is constantly thrown around as having application to,,, well,,, one of them? All of them? Who is this nebulous god of which you speak? The committee? His Spirit? His Son? The Father of WHO exactly? Confusion reigns. This is ESPECIALLY true of our young people raised up in our school and churches. In particular, ask the young people WHO God is. This is something so essential to the gospel message they should have learned this at their mothers knee. But many, dare I say most have no clear concept of WHO God is. Does He even have a body? Does He have a personality? Does He have a personhood or is He just a nebulous concept of three Gods? I was astonished when I started asking WHO and got so many different answers. That was a wake up call, wow, our people, my people, don't even know who God is! And I ask myself, how in the world did we get to this point??? Answer, after careful consideration and study: THIS is the omega we were warned about, and few even recognize it. And only recently did I find that I am not alone in this quandry, asking these questions. There are many... and they are NOT off-shoots or anti-trinitarians, they are solid SDA members sighing and crying for what we, as a people, have become.

I believe that God the Father is indeed the Father of Christ...
...I understand this in an eternal sense - in eternity.
...It has been this way. 

I generally start my prayer with "Heavenly Father" and end it with "I ask these things in the name of Jesus your Son who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, ONE God for ever and ever amen".

The realationship between the Son and the Father is eternal because...
...There was never a time when the Father wasn't the Father.
...There was never a time when the Son wasn't the Son. 
...& never a time when the Holy Spirit wasn't the Holy Spirit.

When God is referred to the maning is The Trinity, ONE GOD...
...There is only one Substance which is God and this ONE Substance.
...Is coequally possessed by the 3 Members of the Trinity. 

Whatever this ONE Substance is -is what makes Jesus & The Holy Spirit God...
...Its a great mystery exactly as Scripture says it is. 

 

 

[ReturntoDar]

I agree, with the prophet especially, as she stated it: "God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God." This is the very essence of the gospel. FB#2 does not acknowledge this. It makes God an unknown, undefined, non-personality composed of the God Head. The God Head is not God, it is God, God's Son and their representative. By whom, the Father and the Son are represented as everywhere at once. Since they individually have a body, this is why God (the Father of Christ) ordained that they (Himself and His Son) have a representative, unencumbered with a body.

I was quite surprised when I came across a statement by Ellen White about when "time began" and when "time will end". Eternity has no time frame, it just always was and always will be. The pioneers, most of them anyway, talk about a "point in time" when Christ came into existence. This is fundamenatl flaw with the trinity concept. "Time" is irrelvant to the members of the God Head, "time" as we understand it did not exen exist until.... sin was found in Satans heart. When that issue is resolved, we will return to "eternity".

[ReturntoDar]

I forgot to add: FB#2 specifically denies that Christ is the Son of God, the claim is made that He IS God. one of three. Nowhere can that be found in the bible or the writings of Ellen White. It is in fact directly related to the Catholic position of the trinity.

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, ReturntoDar said:

I agree, with the prophet especially, as she stated it: "God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God." This is the very essence of the gospel. FB#2 does not acknowledge this. It makes God an unknown, undefined, non-personality composed of the God Head. The God Head is not God, it is God, God's Son and their representative. By whom, the Father and the Son are represented as everywhere at once. Since they individually have a body, this is why God (the Father of Christ) ordained that they (Himself and His Son) have a representative, unencumbered with a body.

I was quite surprised when I came across a statement by Ellen White about when "time began" and when "time will end". Eternity has no time frame, it just always was and always will be. The pioneers, most of them anyway, talk about a "point in time" when Christ came into existence. This is fundamenatl flaw with the trinity concept. "Time" is irrelvant to the members of the God Head, "time" as we understand it did not exen exist until.... sin was found in Satans heart. When that issue is resolved, we will return to "eternity".

You haven't answered my question yet. 

What organ(s) do you believe are missing or non-functional on the Father? 

 

[ReturntoDar]

"What organ(s)"?: What does the bible or the SOP have to say about that? Only silence. Without a clear "thus saith the Lord" I'll leave that for others to debate. We are told Jesus is the same substance of His Father, the express image of His Father. He was begotten and brought forth from His Father. As to their internal makeup, we can only guess, and Ellen White counsels, "we ought not guess at anything".

As it concerns the Holy Spirit we have no thus saith the Lord that even suggests He has any substance of any kind!

[GHansen]

13 hours ago, Gustave said:

During the 1919 Bible Conference it would have been saturated within every element of Seventh-day Adventism. There wouldn't have been a need to discuss it in the context of determining the truth or falsity of it - it was believed militantly. To deny the P,O,G. was to deny Father God, God's Son Michael the archangel, the 1st 5 Books of the Bible, all the Prophets and even the devil himself. 

 

 

Gustave, If the personality of God permeated the thoughts of those at the 1919 Bible Conference, what books on the personality of God did any of them author prior to or after the conference? I don't recall a single volume from that era on the personality of God. There are volumes on the sanctuary, the 2300 days, the Sabbath, the state of the dead. Since you apparently are an expert on the buttocks of God, am I to understand that the buttocks of God permeated the thoughts of SDA scholars of that era, including EGW? I can see how the body parts of God might be of interest to some as they relate to His actual being. While it may sound irreverent, it's actually an interesting question, one you have likely given more thought to than I have. If God has a digestive system, he must have something to digest. He has a diet of some kind; therefore, he would also have eliminative processes. How does that play out, in your thinking?

[ReturntoDar]

GHansen: "He [God] has a diet of some kind; therefore, he would also have eliminative processes." Divinity, the angels and the unfallen worlds have a perfect digestion system. There is no waste. Image Adams surprise following his sin, when he discovered his digestive system was no long working perfectly.