B/W Photodude Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 3 hours ago, ReturntoDar said: Our scholars have phrased the heavenly trio in our Fundamental Beliefs as: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. They removed the phrase Son of God and replaced it with the phrase God the Son (in 1980). This phrase is never used in the Bible or in the Spirit of Prophecy. Nor will you it find in our 28 Fundamental Beliefs. The biblical phrase is Son of God. I suspect we are just really splitting hairs here. The Bible uses the term Son of God a lot. Does it really matter if we use the term "Son of God" or "God the Son"? 3 hours ago, ReturntoDar said: Ellen White on the issue of "time", which is the major conundrum in figuring out how Jesus can be a Son, and yet eternal. Much more study and meditation and you will be able to figure it out. Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 Difficulty with understanding the meaning of the word is that this is the only place it is used in the NT, i.e., nothing with which to compare it. It is also found just once in the LXX, Leviticus 13:28. Oddly, it is translated there as "mark" LXXE, "inflamation" YLT, "scar" NRSV. The actual word is χαρακτηρ = character. Colossians 1:15 also uses the word "image" in describing Jesus; however, it is not the same word used in OL Hebrews. Not a lot to work with. Thanks for the reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 B/W Photodude asks does it matter if we say "God the Son" or the "Son of God". The answer is 100% YES, it matters. It is an issue of spiritual life and death. The bible, and the Spirit of Prophecy are exceedingly clear: there in ONE true God, the Father of Christ. He brought forth a Son. How many gods are represented in the SDA Fundamental Belief #2? There are three. The assumption is that Jesus is "role playing", He is not "really" the Son of God. THIS IS THE OFFICIAL POSITION of the SDA CHURCH. Specifically: Jesus is NOT the Son of God. Let that sink in, this is a devastating position, the Church knew and understood exactly what they were saying if FB#2, that Jesus is not a Son, He IS God. Said correctly, He is God's SON, the express image of His Father, the ONE true God. Is He, the Son of God, or not? THAT is a salvation question. You either accept Christ as the Son of God, the Saviour of the world, or like the Jews, and apostate Christianity you deny that He is the Son of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 Was Adam in the image of God? The bible says he was! Two arms, two legs, a literal body. Jesus took the "image" to a higher level, the "express image". Adam was not a "twin" as we understand the word. I believe Jesus WAS a "twin" of His Father. The Father and Jesus have literal bodies, Jesus showed His body to Moses in the cleft of the rock. Being as they both have literal bodies, they cannot be in more than one place at a time. THAT is why the Father has a representative, without body, His Holy Spirit. Jesus, being His Fathers express image in all conceivable ways, shares in being represented by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is everwhere present at all times. The angels have a literal body, they cannot be in more than one place at a time. They have tremendous power, of course, to appear, disappear, travel in the blink of an eye, walk through walls, destroy cities, etc. etc. Jesus speaking directly to Ellen White (while she was in vision) told her, from His own lips, that He was the "express image" of His Father. The bible and the SOP are clear on this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 7, 2023 Author Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2023 To all reading her: Return to Dar is expressing his own beliefs which contradict the beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Chruch. He misrepresents much in what he posts. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 Everything I post and believe is fully supported by the Bible and the SOP. I am not guessing, I am not offering an opinion. Ellen White states: "God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God". God is not playing a "role" assigned to Him or in cooperation with the other members of the God Head, as the SDA Church officially declared in 1980. They acknowledge there is no direct bible or SOP statement. This is an assumption on their part. Jesus is, literally, just what the prophet says He is: the SON of God. Not my opinion, words straight from the hand of Ellen White. There is ONE "true God", not my opinion, straight from the bible, John 17:3, 1 Timothy 2:5. I believe the Bible, and Ellen White, "just as it reads". Ellen White was much more than an "administrator", she was a prophet. Inspired by the same Holy Spirit as were all the prophets before her. The Fundamental PRINCIPLES, which Ellen White held as truth, clearly state that the ONE God is the FATHER of Christ. This is absolutely essential to the gospel message, there is no higher issue of greater importance. This IS a salvation question. Jesus is either the Son of God, or He is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 9 hours ago, ReturntoDar said: that He was the "express image" of His Father. Could you explain clearly just what the "express image" is. Does EGW explain it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 Everything I post and believe is fully supported by the Bible and the SOP. I am not guessing, I am not offering an opinion. Ellen White states: "God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God". God is not playing a "role" assigned to Him or in cooperation with the other members of the God Head, as the SDA Church officially declared in 1980. They acknowledge there is no direct bible or SOP statement. This is an assumption on their part. Jesus is, literally, just what the prophet says He is: the SON of God. Not my opinion, words straight from the hand of Ellen White. There is ONE "true God", not my opinion, straight from the bible, John 17:3, 1 Timothy 2:5. I believe the Bible, and Ellen White, "just as it reads". Ellen White was much more than an "administrator", she was a prophet. Inspired by the same Holy Spirit as were all the prophets before her. The Fundamental PRINCIPLES, which Ellen White held as truth, clearly state that the ONE God is the FATHER of Christ. This is absolutely essential to the gospel message, there is no higher issue or greater imprtance. This IS a salvation question. Jesus is either the Son of God, or He is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 "Express Image" I don't think I can explain "express image" any better than what common sense would suggest. Bear in mind this is NOT something Ellen White said, this is the exact testimony of Jesus speaking directly to her. In this instance they are both standing in front/near the very throne of God (the Father of Christ). The Father was veiled, she could not see His form. She inquired of Jesus, "Could I see the Father?" Jesus replied, if she did, she would "cease to exist" for no sinner can behold the form of God and live. He then continued and said, "I am the express image of my Father". I am reminded of how Jesus said "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." I don't necessarily take that literally in all regards, since at the time Jesus was in a human body on earth. But the principle stands, if you have seen Jesus, then you have seen the Father, in spirit and truth. Moses saw the "Father", in that he literally saw the physical body of Jesus in the cleft of the rock. No doubt, Jesus veiled His glory to some degree, lest Moses by slain on the spot! "Twins", in all regards I guess would be one possible definition of "express image", vs the redeemed who reflect the image, but not the "express image". Certainly looks, character, attitude, goals, two arms, two legs, at least basic physical appearance, all these would apply. BUT, the prophet is very clear that God and His Son are two distinct and separate personalities with very real bodies. NOTE: the Holy Spirit is NOT the "express image" of the Father or of Jesus! The Spirit is without body, which is HOW the Father and Jesus can be "everywhere" present. Certainly the Holy Spirit reflects the image of God and Jesus in character, attitude, goals. He is as much a distinct personality as are the Father, the Son. The members of the God Head are of course all divine, but there is only ONE true God, says the Bible, He is the Father of Christ. Christ comes to us in His Fathers name, even "everlasting Father" declares Isaiah. God has ordained that His Son have "life of Himself", and being the "express image" of His Father, He had the power to create all things. Jesus is eternal, and this is exactly where I draw the line with "anti-trinitarians" who hold to the idea that Jesus had a beginning. There is nothing in the Bible or the SOP that suggests that, it is an assumption because humans are unable to reason out, "how can this be?" NOT for us to ask. God said it, so it is true, He brought forth His Son, in eternity, without beginning or end, before "time" began (says Ellen White). It's not the mystery that many proclaim. It's not really that complicated. Peter understood it! How? Jesus told him, "The Holy Spirit revealed it" to him. The Spirit will reveal it to all the sincere seekers of truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Dar, obviously you are heavily invested in this topic, which I am not. The term "express image" from Hebrews is a translation of a Greek word transliterated as "character." One might say that Jesus has the character of God. One of the definitions given for the word in the LSJ lexicon is "4.type or character (regarded as shared with others) of a thing or person, rarely of an individual nature,". Another is "2.mark engraved, impress, stamp on coins and seals." This is interesting because of the text which says God has set his seal to Jesus (John 6:27}. I'd still be interested to learn where EGW defines "express image of his person" The word "person" is translated various ways such as "the exact imprint of God’s very being," NRSV; "exact representation of his nature" NASB; "impress of his subsistence" YLT and others. You can see that a definitive statement from EGW might be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 I just take it as it reads, Jesus said, "I am the express image of my Father". For me, "done"! This was the answer Jesus gave to Ellen White when she asked to SEE the FATHER on His throne. Jesus was using simple language that Ellen White could understand. Not Greek, Hebrew, etc., just plain old everyday english! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Jesus used language that a person with a ~4th grade education could understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 "Express image of his person," is most likely an interpretation by translators of a passage they don't really understand. "Express image" is a translation of a single Greek word used once in the NT (Strong's # 5481). It refers to a scar or mark of an inflammation in Leviticus 13:28, The word translated "express image" is used only twice in the entire Bible. In extra Biblical literature it refers to a mark or a brand. If one consults Thayer's Greek Lexicon, using the Strong's numbering system (5481), various possible meanings are suggested. It's a problematic word. The word translated "person" (Strong's number 5287) is used 5 times in the NT, 3 times in Hebrews: Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person <5287>, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence <5287> stedfast unto the end; Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance <5287> of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Common sense tells me that the expression "express image of his person" is difficult to understand. It's not one to be heavily leaned upon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 "I have often seen the lovely Jesus, that He is a person. I asked Him if His Father was a person and had a form like Himself. SaidJesus, “I am in the express image of My Father’s person.” I have often seen that the spiritual view took away all the glory of heaven, and that in many minds the throne of David and the lovely person of Jesus have been burned up in the fire of Spiritualism... To those who may circulate this little work, I would say that it is designed for the sincere only and not for those who would ridicule the things of the Spirit of God." Early Writings, pg. 39 Perhaps I have made a mistake in circulating this topic. Sadly there are those who would ridicule and make complex that which is simple. It is the devil who shrouds the simple in mystery. There is no mystery here, Jesus is the express image of His Fathers person. So says Ellen White, not in some foreign language, but in simple english. So simple the common man can understand it, while it is confusing and a mystery to those who refuse to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 10 hours ago, ReturntoDar said: “I am in the express image of My Father’s person.” Yes, that's true, as far as the translation is correct; nevertheless, "I am the express image of my Father's person" doesn't really explain what that an express image is. The EW statement, including a reference to Hebrews 1:3, is in answer to a question about the Father's form. It really doesn't explain just what an express image of the Father's person is. People often read into EGW their own preconceived opinions and prejudices which are then read into the Bible. Your "mistake" is leaning so heavily upon EGW to form your beliefs. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 "I asked Him if His Father was a person and had a form like Himself. SaidJesus, “I am in the express image of My Father’s person." There is no mystery here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Link to "Not a Mystery". https://www.prophecywaymarks.com/books/not-a-mystery- Youtube sermon by the author of "Not a Mystery". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 hour ago, ReturntoDar said: Youtube sermon by the author of "Not a Mystery". Until you explain exactly what "express image of his person means, it is a "mystery." YLT translates it as "impress of his subsistence." RSV says "stamp of his nature." NRSV says "exact imprint of God's very being." EGW may well have been using the text for illustrative purposes rather to convey the authors intended meaning. Not exactly sure what you are trying to prove but that isn't the right text to prove it. There's nothing in that text to convey the idea of God's "form." When Colossians speaks of "image" of God, it uses an entirely different word. So does Philippians 2:6,7 when referring to the form of Christ, as does 2Corinthians 4:4. In the Bible an "express image" is not a" form," at least not so far. If you can provide a text which equates an "exact image" with "form," I'd like to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Watch the video. youtube.com/watch?v=A97ALH9PDNs&t=77s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 hour ago, ReturntoDar said: Watch the video. youtube.com/wat Sorry, I can't watch YouTube. It shouldn't be difficult to provide a text which equates "express image of his person" with "form," if there is one. That's your point, right? Got anything besides a quote from Sr. White to prove it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Form, person, body, all these apply. But it's deeper than that. Jesus, being God's SON was "brought forth" from His Father. They are one, not just in spirit, goals, etc. but literally one in a similar manner as father and son are one. ...it's not a mystery... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 9 hours ago, ReturntoDar said: ...it's not a mystery. So basically, you are not able to provide Scripture evidence for your position but depend on a YouTuber to speak for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 Ellen White is clear enough, for those with spiritual eyes that see! God is a person, so is Christ, so was Adam, angels are persons, so are you. Christ showed His person to Moses. In all cases, they have a body, a personality, an individuality. Christ is the express image of His Fathers PERSON. This is not complicated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, ReturntoDar said: This is not complicated So you base your theology on what Sr. White said and a YouTuber? Why not base your beliefs on what the Bible says? It appears that you build on sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReturntoDar Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 Ellen White IS a prophet, in the same order as Moses, John the Baptist and the authors found in the Bible. If your not an SDA, then perhaps you are not held to this belief. If you are an SDA, denial of Ellen Whites gift of prophecy WILL lead to a loss of salvation. Bible and Bible only? Sure for those who are not SDA! But here's the thing, it is impossible to discern truth and understand the Bible WITHOUT the counsel of Ellen White. Were it not so, God would not needed to give us a prophet in these last days. Those who reject the Spirit of Prophecy are building on sand indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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