J H Kellogg & God's Nature

[ReturntoDar]

"I have often seen that the spiritual view took away all the glory of heaven, and that in many minds the throne of David and the lovely person of Jesus have been burned up in the fire of Spiritualism (TRINITY makes god a spirit, spiritualism). I have seen that some who have been deceived and led into this error will be brought out into the light of truth, but it will be almost impossible for them to get entirely rid of the deceptive power of Spiritualism. Such should make thorough work in confessing their errors and leaving them forever". {Early Writings, pg. 77.2, Ellen White}

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

I am quite familiar with the history of the Trinity issues, which began in the 400's AD. The SDA pioneers were very clear where they stood on this issue. It was only in 1980 when the SDA Church, in essence, joined hands with the Catholics in officially accepting the three gods false doctrine. Again, the bible is clear: there is ONE true God. This is the Father of Christ, NOT a committee of three gods. This make a fourth god, one without body or person. As you say, a "spirit". THIS IS SPIRITUALISM. Once accepted, it is almost impossible to recover from. God is a person, His Son is a person, they have bodies. Jesus showed His body to Moses in the cleft of the rock. The Holy Spirit is without body, though fully divine, He is not "God" (the Father of Christ) He is God's representative.

I am sad SDA have fallen into the "spiritualism" trap. They say there understanding of God is different than Catholic, but it is not. Their god is identical, three gods, not one. Same for Christianity in general, three gods they proclaim to be one. But that false god is a "concept", and "idea" a "best guess". Because they (you, them, all) cannot explain it, nor does the Bible explain it, they say, "It's a mystery, you have to accept it on faith". I say, "Show me from the Bible where it says this". They cannot, you cannot, Christians cannot. Jesus has a Father, His Father is the one true God.

I'm not disputing that the early SDA's weren't clear on where they stood - they certainly were. What I'm saying is that they were uneducated cultists teaching heresy who didn't have a way (through education) to pull themselves out of the tarpit of ignorance they were mired in. 

As the SDA Church aged and became more educated, it realized some of it's theological positions were untenable. I'd say today that the Scholarship I've seen in the SDA Church is pretty impressive. There is also some pretty impressive clergy in the mix as well and Pastor Matthews of this forum would be one of them. 

If you read Acts Chapter 15 and consider the impact for a minute you'll see that when matters become present in the Church to the point they need to be dealt with a council is held and a decision is made by the leadership of the Church under the direction of the Holy Spirit - this is basically a consensus of qualified Bishops and clergy who reach a determination. You will notice that there isn't a morass of supernatural-ish parlor tricks that accompanied the Acts 15 Council. 

Questions didn't stop happening after Acts 15 and history attests to the Councils held to address various Christological issues that came up in the Church. The early SDA's were so far disconnected from Christianity they couldn't be considered the remnant - not by a long shot. These were just well intentioned people who had theologically lost their way. 

Ellen White was immediately re-baptized by James White himself into the Arian non-trinitarian trainwreck which was early Adventism - that is saying something ReturntoDar. The SDA Church today confirms that the founders of the SDA Church couldn't join the SDA Church today because of the theological differences - there are certainly differences there and the differences should be there. 

[ReturntoDar]

Gustave on the early SDA, Ellen White and company, they: "were uneducated cultists teaching heresy who didn't have a way (through education) to pull themselves out of the tarpit of ignorance they were mired in".

Well now, thats quite a mouthful! It is a reflection of a classic case of Laodicea. They think they are all right, when they are all wrong. They see no error. They think they are advancing in light as they become shrouded in darkness.

Laodicea is a serious, deadly condition. 

[Gustave]

55 minutes ago, ReturntoDar said:

Gustave on the early SDA, Ellen White and company, they: "were uneducated cultists teaching heresy who didn't have a way (through education) to pull themselves out of the tarpit of ignorance they were mired in".

Well now, thats quite a mouthful! It is a reflection of a classic case of Laodicea. They think they are all right, when they are all wrong. They see no error. They think they are advancing in light as they become shrouded in darkness.

Laodicea is a serious, deadly condition. 

I'll wish you well and depart from this conversation as we are not gaining ground with each other....

[ReturntoDar]

A note for all: When you say "God" do you mean all three members of the God Head, a composite of three gods? This god of three has no personhood, "it" is without body or thought, it is not unlike a god of the heathens. A "thought", not a real person.

If you believe there are three gods, then you should use the plural when you say "God", it should be "the gods", plural.

There is One TRUE God, singular. "HE" sent His only begotten Son to die that we might live. ALL things have their origination in eternity and ALL things came from the One True God, the Father of Christ.

Jesus is not pretending to be a Son. THIS IS spiritualism!

 

[Gustave]

A Christian who holds to the Orthodox Trinity Doctrine would say that when they refer to God they are referring to THE ONE SPIRIT wherein the three Persons subsist. This is why Jesus said if you had seen Him you had seen the Father, because the Father is literally ONE in Spirit with the Son & the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity has been and is eternally INSEPERABLE. 

This is why it is heresy to suggest that Christ is part of God and that "part of God could have died", eternally ceased to exist, etc. 

Christ is not "PART OF THE TRINITY", Christ is fully God , wipe out Christ and you wipe out the Father & the Holy Spirit. This is why you see the Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and every other Church have in their creeds that God is simple and has no PARTS.

This is why you see Adventist Churches such as the Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses, SDA's reject the Doctrine of the Trinity. The SDA Church says they believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity but I've only heard a couple of SDA's actually say that they do believe in the Trinity Doctrine as articulated in every Protestant Church excepting the Mormons, Adventists and oneness groups.

My opinion is that "Doctrine Develops" and when Doctrine develops from an initial bad doctrine the doctrines downstream from that (in this case Christology) is affected. You can see how downstream from the early SDA's Arian position their Christology developed to the point where they would affirm:

• The Father is a self-contained "BEING", a flesh hominid. 
• The Son is a self-contained "BEING", a flesh hominid that looked liked the twin of the Father.
• Lucifer is a self-contained "BEING", a flesh hominid that looked so like Michael it was difficult to tell them apart. 

Fast forward in time and you get a teaching out of the above that would allow Christ to sin and if He had loose His eternal existence. 

If Christ had sinned Ellen White said that PART OF GOD would have died, there would have been a rupture in heaven, etc. 

The Doctrine of Divine Simplicity is incompatible with that kind of teaching because God is ONE NATURE or SUBSTANCE without body or parts thus the Trinity is eternally inseparable. 

I don't say this to create a debate or stir stuff up - I'm posting this so you know what a Methodist's, Baptist, Greek Orthodox Christian or Catholic understands what the Trinity is and isn't and where the difference is based off our different Faith Traditions. 

Below is a short explanation of the Doctrine of Divine Simplicity and why everyone who subscribes to it says God doesn't have any "PARTS". I'm sure there are other reasons aside from what the video is describing but this is what I have for you at this time. 

 

 

[ReturntoDar]

There is ONE true God, says the Bible. To make this ONE God a "spirit", a "concept" is spiritualism. It destroys the person hood of the Father of Christ, from whom ALL things came. ALL things, including His Holy Spirit, and His Son. When? In eternity, before time began, it cannot be measured in any way. Christ is eternal, He is fully God (being the express image of His Father), and yet He is the ONE true God's Son. It's not complicated... it's beyond human reasoning. Attempts to unravel the mystery will always result in serious error, as demonstrated in 1980 by the SDA Church officially adopting the false doctrine of a Trinity.

The God Head is composed of three divine beings, all eternal, but these three in combination are NOT the "ONE true God" of the bible. That belongs exclusively to the Father of Christ.