Is healthcare "a right" ?

[debbym]

On 10/2/2018 at 1:01 PM, CoAspen said:

 

Yes, and we have a privilege/right to education, and to travel, to have water, ownership,  respect,  and love.  Health care that preserves and protects life is not the same as health care for plastic surgery.  These are freedoms.  

It is against the law to deprive anyone of their rights.  The state stands to protect it's citizens and their rights.

Can you imagine police coming and dumping soup pots and grinding sandwiches into the dirt during the great depression of the 20's?  They have done that now in communities where they have made it illegal to feed those who have no food.

Things that used to be expected and supported and understood are now challenged and denied.

 

 

  

[Stan]

Huge difference between can’t work and won’t work. 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I had been taking a 10 mg Ambien every night before bed for 5 years, when my new Medicare doc refused to renew my prescription.  I was freaked.  I started taking magnesium glycinate and valerian; and I'm sleeping almost as good as I was with the Ambien.  The anticipation of the change was much worse than the experience.

Valerian give some people really bad dreams.

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

MEDICAL CARE IS NOT HEALTHCARE and because it costs money, no one should be entitled to it unless they pay for it. Others should not have to pay for their poor choices to eat, drink and abuse their bodies. Medical care is the diagnosis & treatment of disease,

Which is WHY I said that toxic substances (nicotine, sugars, alcohol, soda, etc) should be TAXED, to pay for the resulting healthcare.  It all depends on how far one wants to go in labeling substances as toxic.   I read couple websites, which recommend only RAW, UNPROCESSED, VEGAN.  Nothing cooked.  No eggs or cheese.  No grains or gluten.  Etc. Etc. Etc.   I actually know someone whose cancer went into remission using that diet.  Personally - I'd rather just die, than be confined to THAT diet. 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Nothing but emergency services - REAL emergencies; not just for showing up at the ER something like the sniffles or a slight cough.

What if the person has Strep-throat.  That infection can cause kidney failure.  It's a BAD BUG.  Without the quick throat-swab test,  the person would not know whether he has a virus like the flu, or something like Strep-throat. 

What about an appendicitis or a bowl obstruction, or a kidney stone.  There are "REAL emergencies" that do not involve an accident with lacerated skin or broken bones.

[bonnie]

14 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

 I guess the following would not be a "good use of funds" according to what you have posted:

   

Is there a difference between what we as Christians should be willing and happy to do for others and what a secular society or country demands?   How much of what I possess do you or anyone have a right to demand?  It has been stated that we all pay taxes. True but some pay taxes with the money they have obtained from the labor of others. 

Do we have right to free food, free housing, free transportation, etc on de mand?

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

MEDICAL CARE IS NOT HEALTHCARE and because it costs money, no one should be entitled to it unless they pay for it. Others should not have to pay for their poor choices to eat, drink and abuse their bodies. Medical care is the diagnosis & treatment of disease, usually with prescription drugs that are a leading cause of illness and death. (Google). 

HEALTHCARE is what we do for our selves. Dr. Breslow of UCLA found 7 health habits gave a 30-year advantage compared to people who broken the rules and depended on prescription drugs. By a strange coincidence, the 7 health habits coincide well with Ellen White's natural remedies from Ministry of Healing, p 126 that are summarized by NEW START (Nutrition, Exercise, Water, Sunlight (wasn't in Breslow's study) Temperance, Air (no smoking) Rest and Trust in God & nature. 

HEALTHCARE IS A DUTY to keep our bodies as God's temple. It is God's right to require it of us. 

 

I suppose you want to disallow payment for mammograms to detect cancer, and vaccines to prevent diseases which killed or maimed millions in the past.  Do you also want all old folks to simply languish and die, rather than living 20 years longer without horrendous pain.  In the Middle Ages, women lived (on average) 40 years, mostly because of the dangers inherent in childbirth.  Do you want to go back to those days? 

[8thdaypriest]

8 hours ago, debbym said:

Can you imagine police coming and dumping soup pots and grinding sandwiches into the dirt during the great depression of the 20's?  They have done that now in communities where they have made it illegal to feed those who have no food.

Things that used to be expected and supported and understood are now challenged and denied.

Are you talking about feeding "street people" ? 

You do realize that feeding them attracts more and more and more of them.  Right?  The more services available, the more will show up to avail themselves of the FREE services - BECAUSE they are parasites. 

We stopped feeding the deer on our place, when the herd grew to 50 and they began fighting over the food. 

2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat." (NIV)

I am DEFINITELY in favor of Work-fare.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

Wanderer: We have a duty to help our fellow man, but real help should be with real healthcare--help them change their habits so they can be well--the body is designed for self-healing if we cooperate. To tax people for other's medical care has no saving value. The world wants to eat and drink as they please and take a pill to relieve symptoms. Paying for their medical care is not a good use of funds when there are hungry children in Africa, India, etc. Isn't this a better focus on "who is my neighbor"? 

IMO - your view is too narrow.

Yes - teach good health principles.   Share them with the people closest to you - (or with your patients if you are a medical services provider).  That's all well and good.  But there ARE situations and conditions which need remedy - through the care of medical service providers. 

Even back in Mrs White's day, individuals were born with birth defects - club foot, cleft pallet, etc. etc. etc. etc.  Her message of health did not help with those things.  Poor immigrants in the 1700s - 1800s were crammed into steerage, where they were exposed to TB, etc. etc. etc.   Should they NOT have come?  Mrs White did not say they should have stayed where they were - persecuted and dirt poor. 

Preaching the health message at someone who is truly suffering, will NOT HELP, any more than preaching a Bible sermon at someone who has just been injured in a car accident.

I'm 70 now.  I grew up in Arizona and So. Calif.  We loved to be outdoors.  Got lots of exercise.  No one used a lot of sunscreen back then.  Now I have a cancer on my lip.  (Going to see surgeon next week.)  To hear you talk about healthcare, makes me think you would deny me any help, because I should have known.  I've eaten vegetarian for 30+ years, never smoked, never drank, not overweight, etc. etc. etc. 

After the flood of Noah, the atmosphere was changed.  Humans were exposed to a high amount of radiation, which causes degeneration of DNA.   No amount of healthy diet is going to change that effect.  People with pale skin should not live in high desert or very sunny climates, unless covered with clothing, wide brimmed hats, and sunscreen.  Now we know. 

There are millions who grew up NOT KNOWING about health principles.  Should they be penalized - denied services - because they should have known?   I don't think so!

I know of a toddler whose mother is a lazy teenager.  She feeds him junk food - whatever is readily available.  Should that child be penalized because his mother is at fault?  No. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

24 minutes ago, RichardRuhling said:

At 76, I've had one Rx in my adult life, for intestinal flu on a trip and I'm thankful I've done it right in spite of hamburgers and ice cream as a child. 

So you inherited good genes.  What does that have to do with denying medical care to those who did not?

[8thdaypriest]

23 minutes ago, RichardRuhling said:

8thdaypriest:  I wouldn't deny anyone medical care who wants it, and cancer on the lip sounds like a good reason, but I'm against people who think they have a right to it and someone else (other than your medicare at 70) should pay for them. I'm for healthcare, but to call medical care "healthcare" is a misnomer because it is all about diagnosis and treatment of disease, usually by drugs which do not cure and which always have the potential for adverse reactions that are a leading cause of death, and I can say that having been board-certified in Internal Medicine and taught Health Science at Loma Linda. 

 

I was certified at Loma Linda also, and I'm married to a family practice, internal med service provider for last 38 years. 

I doubt they will call it something other than "health care", but you can certainly try. 

[8thdaypriest]

20 minutes ago, RichardRuhling said:

if they are not prepared to pay for it, they should not expect others to pick up the bill.

Do you not believe in buying health insurance?  Insurance is all about sharing the risk - right.  

Some auto insurance companies monitor their customers, and give "safe driving" bonuses.  Maybe health insurance companies could give bonuses for NOT going to the doctor, for defined periods (except for preventive things).  But that might drive up premiums for those with conditions that require more frequent visits.  I think THAT is what high-risk pools are all about - keeping premiums down for everyone without such conditions.  

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

27 minutes ago, RichardRuhling said:

if they are not prepared to pay for it, they should not expect others to pick up the bill.

Cigarettes ARE TAXED to help pay for treatment of things like COPD and lung cancer.   Personally - I am in favor of a TAX on high sugar foods, sodas, high risk sports equipment etc. etc.  The question is whether the government would actually use the money for healthcare, or just move the money to pay for other things.

More recently the government has been passing the bill for rescue operations on to those who knowingly engage in dangerous activities.   It would be good if insurance companies would exclude coverage for such injuries too, forcing those who wish to engage in dangerous sports to PAY EXTRA FOR special "dangerous sports coverage".  

Folks who want to live in flood-plains, buy flood insurance.  Race drivers pay for special insurance.  Those living in high crime areas, pay more for home or renters insurance. 

But all of this is talking about folks who CAN AFFORD to BUY insurance.  Some cannot.   How to provide for them - and HOW? 

[CoAspen]

Quote

Are you talking about feeding "street people" ? 

You do realize that feeding them attracts more and more and more of them.  Right?  The more services available, the more will show up to avail themselves of the FREE services - BECAUSE they are parasites. 

Talking about a 'narrow view'!  So you know why every single person is homeless? Really enjoying the mix of God fearing piety and calling people, Gods creation, parasites. Reckon that is how God looks at us!

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Valerian give some people really bad dreams.

I have not experienced that at all.

[JoeMo]

21 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Obviously, civil authorities do not make a special effort to adhere to EGW counsel; but this is what I have been talking about. Jesus sets the example for us to follow

One difference between Jesus' resources and ours.  His were (and still are) infinite.  In this age, mine are still finite (and growing more finite all the time).

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, bonnie said:

Do we have right to free food, free housing, free transportation, etc on de mand?

Nope.

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I was focused just on helping people, not based on whether or not they merit help; but simply because they need the help

I must admit that many times, I help people not based on their merit, but out of the pity and compassion I am feeling for them at the moment.  Could that "feeling" be God telling me "Help that person"?  I kinda like to think so.

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

Is Healthcare a Right? ...

Maybe I missed it, but what happens to your right when no one is present or willing to provide the healthcare you feel you have a right to? Will we then enslave the healthcare providers and force them to provide this service?

[B/W Photodude]

47 minutes ago, RichardRuhling said:

I am not against anybody, but I'm against laws that would force other people to be taxed to pay for medical care for people who cannot afford to pay for it themselves.  For the most part, they chose to eat, drink and smoke so that their problem is the just reward in most cases, and the Good News is that if they repent early, the body is designed for self-healing and most disease is reversible.

It has been estimated that the price tag for bad health habits runs into the hundreds of billions of dollars annually. Add on to that unnecessary medical treatment and the tag goes even higher. Then when hospitals & physicians charge so much for services that they are making huge salaries compared to other countries because of insurance and government payments you can see how the greed factor comes in (one physician even own a professional football team. OK, it was the WFL, but still that was a lot of money.) I was speaking to a family member in another country who had his own health insurance for his family of four. I asked how much he paid for insurance and it was about $1200/year (Some people under Obamacare are billed three times that much per month! And I am not sure they even got to keep their same doctor.). If you need surgery, you can now go to a foreign country and have a knee replacement for about 1/5 of what it costs in the US. So, between bad habits and greed, health care costs are very high in this country and are not likely to improve any time soon.

[B/W Photodude]

15 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Maybe I missed it, but what happens to your right when no one is present or willing to provide the healthcare you feel you have a right to? Will we then enslave the healthcare providers and force them to provide this service?

13 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

lol, well if no one was present whom exactly would we "enslave?"

Think outside the box. Military style draft and forced labor in the hospital? Bang on someone's door at 3am and drag someone to the hospital to work? After all, some poor patient's rights are being violated!

[B/W Photodude]

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

really? lol Wow. What comic book did that come from?

Well, no one has attempted to answer my question of "What will happen when someone shows up in the hospital needing medical care that is their "right" to receive and no one is there to provide it? Did they have a right? Are we really understanding what a right is in this thread?

[B/W Photodude]

21 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

lol, well I cant really imagine a hospital with no one in it to provide health care. Do YOU really understand what a hospital is?  

You and I have both worked for years in  hospitals; and you sound like you are a very good nurse. What has your own, personal experience said to your question?

I believe I wrote earlier that a very large segment of the healthcare workforce is nearing a retirement age. Schools can not push out new grads fast enough. With all the craziness in healthcare funding and all the other regulations and paperwork, many are just tired of it and hanging it up. When it comes to nurse staffing it was not unusual to be short staffed with the result of putting patients in danger of nurses just too busy to keep up with the demands. Coming on shift was often catching up with what the last shift couldn't get done. I have also seen situations where the populations was so sick that in a busy metro area with many hospitals there was not an open ICU bed anywhere to be found. Not unusual to see patients flown out to the next nearest metro area 400 miles away (Phoenix to San Diego) for a critical care bed. Try working in a critical care area sometime where patients are being cared for in hallways surrounded by sheets hung as curtains for "privacy".That was not safe for many many reasons. I suspicion I have an idea about hospitals after almost 35 years at bedside in intensive care. So, now try and answer my question!

[8thdaypriest]

Then there's the issue of expense.  Should we spend $100,000 on transplants or new expensive cancer treatments for aging citizens, when the money could be used to give immunizations to a hundred thousand children?  When does a treatment (or medication) become so expensive, that it should be denied - at least by government insurance where the expense will be borne by taxpayers?

IF it can be clearly shown that Medicare will inevitably bankrupt the government,  should we begin to cut some of the most expensive services?  Or should we keep up the services until we all go down with the ship together?

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/6/2018 at 3:01 PM, RichardRuhling said:

I have never paid for life insurance, fire insurance unless required by lender, car insurance except as required by most states now, and I paid for hospitalization when my wife was pregnant 45 years ago, none since. I understand risk and try to be careful and God has been good. In Bible times, people didn't pay unless they hurt someone, like if they fell off a porch with no railing, etc. Traffic tickets are from the dept. of safety, but I have driven all my life safely and society has built around "what if..." that with God's blessing never happens. 

You seem to be saying that illness, accidents, and crimes against them are the FAULT of the ill or injured person's, because they did not obey the LORD well enough, and they did not have enough faith.  If they had more faith, or were more obedient, then God would bless them and protect them more.   I can't go with that one.

The LORD sometimes allows illness or injury or some other trial, to test our faith.  Job's disease and loss were NOT HIS FAULT. 

It is interesting that Job's "friends" did not offer to rebuild is estate, at their own expense - at least not that we know of.