Gossip In The Church

[Dr. Shane]

Let's say I was argueing with a subcontractor, one of his employees called the police, and when the police arrived I was so short with him that he arrested me. Let's say I was charged with assault resulting in bodily injury and assualt on a law officer resulting in bodily injury - even though no assualt occured and no one's body was injuried. Let's say $10,000 bail was set for me to get out of jail.

Now let's say I was indited and hired a lawyer. Let's say it was drug through the courts for a couple of years before the charges were finally dismissed.

Would it be appropriate for the brothers and sisters in the church to talk among themselves about this?

Does gossip have to be false in order to be gossip?

Dictionary.com: GOSSIP

1. Rumor or talk of a personal, sensational, or intimate nature.

2. A person who habitually spreads intimate or private rumors or facts.

3. Trivial, chatty talk or writing.

4. A close friend or companion.

5. Chiefly British. A godparent.

According to that diffinition spreading intimate facts is gossip. I think Jesus taught us how to deal with such "intimate facts"

Matthew 18:

"15. Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

[LynnDel]

Shane, this is an important consideration. Just because an item of information is true does not take it out of the realm of gossip. I forget the sequence of questions my mother used to tell me to consider before saying anything about someone else, but it started something like, "Is it true? Is it kind?" etc. Rather than rely on my memory of those considerations, it's easier to remember Philippians 4:8:

[:"blue"] Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honorable, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue, and if there is any praise, think about these things. [/]

[olger]

Dear El Shane:

If the scenario above brought reproach upon the people of God, the body has an obligation to hold you accountable for it in love. Gal. 6:1 is speaking of such accountability.

Gossip is repeating a matter out of a carnal desire to make yourself look good. I have a brother-in-law who is an industrial strength gossiper. He is also very feminine (might there be a link..? I don't know...)

"Where there is no talebearer, strife ceaees" (Proverbs 20:20).

1 Timothy 5:13 is also helpful.

gcw

[LynnDel]

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He is also very feminine (might there be a link..? I don't know...)

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Do you realize the dangerous ground on which you tread, gcw? Hmmm????

LD

[Dr. Shane]

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If the scenario above brought reproach upon the people of God, the body has an obligation to hold you accountable for it in love.

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OK, let's entertain that. Let's say that I am a local church elder, a known Adventist businessman and the story gets printed in the local paper. Let's say our pastor and church board follows Christ's instruction in Matthew 18. They talk to me. I provide my explantion of what happened and my lawyer, who also happens to be a member of the church, explains it is all a misunderstanding due to me losing my temper and the policeman having a bruised ego. After hearing all this, the church board and pastor decide to do nothing.

Once the situation has been handled by those in the church with the authority to handle the situation, should members of the church still discuss the situation among themselves? What if they disagree with the desicion made by the church board and the pastor?

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Gossip is repeating a matter out of a carnal desire to make yourself look good.

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I think two old men playing checkers can gossip just to pass the time of day. I don't think they need to be trying to make anyone look good.

[Nicodema]

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olger said:

I have a brother-in-law who is an industrial strength gossiper. He is also very feminine (might there be a link..? I don't know...)

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I doubt it, but apparently (as demonstrated above) there is a link between "masculinity" and ignorant, rude, sexist comments.

(Hint: the only correct response to this is something along the lines of "I'm sorry, I was way out of line." If you're thinking of writing something self-justifying and in defense of making your ignorant sexist comment, don't bother. You'd be wasting your own time as well as mine.)

I happen to be female -- a biological fixed fact which I neither requested nor was consulted for my opinion prior to it being established -- and I happen to detest gossip, and think talebearers should have their mouths sewn shut.

After we get done sewing the mouths shut of those who make ignorant sexist comments, that is.

[olger]

Shane. I understand the scenario better, thanks. I know of no mechanism that can gag people from talking about a thing.

A more effective method might be provide a brief format where the person involved could address the church for a few minutes candidly. If he was to make an acknowledgement, ask the forgiveness of the church for the reproach, I'll bet he would find many friends that he didn't realize he had. And all would get in on the healing process. Following that, it would be appropriate for the pastor to make an appeal to put the issue to rest for the good of God's work in our world. We can't force people, but appropriate appeal is all right.

We tried this in our church for a fornication case in 2001, and it worked pretty well.

gcw

[LifeHiscost]

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Shane said:

I think two old men playing checkers can gossip

just to pass the time of day.

I don't think they need to be trying to make anyone look good.

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Out of all the commandments, there probably are none broken with impunity as much as the ninth, [:"red"] "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." [/] While most people refer to this commandment as saying, Thou shall not lie", that isn't what it says. And what it says not to do, is the greater percentage of gossip since gossip seldom involves accuracy about events.

There doesn't seem to be any injunction against talking about people unless it is against them, as in a lie about them.

[Gail]

I hate gossip as well

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Shane,

I don't like gossip at all. I hear people talking about Danny Shelton or Linda Shelton and it's really sad that people's minds have sunk to a soap opera mentality.

I believe we all live in "Glass Houses" and should be careful about what we say. I think of the time Aaron and Miriam spoke against Moses and God dealt severely with Miriam because of her part in this. Some of us may have to reap what we have sown and it won't be pleasant.

Gossip reveals a pattern in the life, a sick pattern that is poison to your own self, folks. I'm not saying it's wrong to discuss certain matters but some of the stuff floating around is not worth repeating. Think of when Jesus was disputing over the body of Moses, He could have said that Satan was an evil liar and called him every name that truly applies to Him. Jesus did not do that; In His nobility Him simply dismissed (rebuked) Satan and went on about the business of dealing with Moses.

We are sinful and fallen, are we better than Jesus? Do we have the right to talk about people who are going through a rough time in their lives? (Even if they may have done worng) I'm sure we all have our own issues that we could deal with and would better occupy our time. Spend this time and energy spreading the Gospel and we'll all be better off for it.

Sorry about the bla bla bla on this, but this is snaring some people and we can't see it and don't think there's anything wrong with it.

Ok, I've got it out now

Love ya'll

Norman

[Amelia]

* tacking on

ANyone ever play the whisper game? Well its just like gossip. One person starts by whispering a sentence to the next person. And then that person to the next on down the line. Then the last person says the sentence out loud and everyone get a good laugh at how much it changed with each repeating.

[Johann]

Jesus once told the tale of bruised person by the roadside. He mentioned what the Levite and the priest had done to him. Was Jesus partaking in the whispering game, or gossipping?

What do you do when you see a mortally bruised person by the roadside? What do you do when you see the original robber returning insulting and hurting his victim to no end?

You plead with the robber to let his victim alone, but he refuses. Is it then your CHristian duty to act like the Levite for fear that someone will accuse you of gossipping?

[Dr. Shane]

WWJD? That is the ultimate test.

There are a few questions I ask myself before repeating any story. I suspect Jesus asked Himself too.

1. Is the story true?

2. Are my facts undisputable? (if they are disputable I need to state they are disputable if I repeat them)

3. Will repeating the story harm anyone?

4. How will repeating the story glorify God?

5. Do I want the person I am telling to tell others and let them know I am the source of their information?

6. What is my purpose for repeating the story? What do I hope to achieve?

7. Does the person I am talking about know I am talking about them?

After prayerfully answering these questions, I am normally in a good position to answer WWJD.

[Parade Orange]

Olger

Feminine as in a catty gossipper?

Kitty likes to scratch ,huh??

or feminine as a man leading a straight life and yet suffers from SSA(same sex attraction). Homosexual tendensies but not acting on them.

Feminine as in a man who struggles with homosexualty but feels unsafe to go to God's house for accountabilty,prayer and true fellowship cause of gossip, fear and isolation(CAUSE HE GOT TO KNOW THEM FIRST AND IT DONT LOOK WELL).

Feminine as in a shattered and broken masculinity due to abuse and alienation from the same sex parent or authority, and inside uncomfortable around other men and prefers the company of woman.

Feminine as in one who hangs around public restrooms and wears a cowboy hat. Has a tattoo saying 'BRONCO' on his right huge bicep and a square jaw.

Feminine as in feeling inside like they maybe in the wrong body and feel trapped and angry at God.

Feminine as in going on the internet for gay porno and fantasizing about men.

Feminine as in a man who picks out curtains with another man and twin matching throw pillows(its amazing! he just throws the pillow and it lands perfectly positioned on the davenport!).

Feminine as in a man who has long delicate fingers and prefers the arts to football. when really he is a straight man who is attracted to woman and not married yet and the caveman in the region dont know how to deal with a man that is different than them therefore they label him as feminine.

What do u mean by feminine?

just asking

[Johann]

What would Jesus DO? is the great and ultimate question, as long as that question is not turned into a bias to bolster sin and evil.

Lets use as an illustration that you have a son who performs a great evil, and he thinks he can hide that he is the one who does it. Evidense of the deed is everywhere, but he tells you and everybody else that his sister has done it. Your daughter denies having done it, but you think your son is telling the truth. You punish your daughter for the evil deed, and she has to carry the shame before family and friends. When she insists she has not done it her brother insists she is a perpetual liar, and he even invents several proofs that she does not always tell the truth.

Then your own brother comes to you and tells you he witnessed the whole act. He saw your son doing it, and he tells you your daughter was not involved in it at all. But since you already have punished her for the deed, you have a hard time changing your opinion, and you still insist your son is telling the truth. You have decided your son is going to take over your business after you, but if he really was the guilty one, he could not run your business. So you still believe he is the innocent one, and your daughter has to carry the guilt for the rest of her life. This mars her reputation and prevents her from getting ahead in school and reaching her goals in life.

If your brother was trying to do as Jesus would do, would he then hide his head in the sand and say nothing? Since you do not believe he is telling the truth, is he a pagan for trying to get others to support your daughter, so she can get ahead in life?

Tell me, what would Jesus do? Shouldn't even you be "punished" for refusing to listen to a reputable witness of your daughter's innocense? Should there not be any fairness among Christians because we live in a sinful world? What Would Jesus Do?

[Dr. Shane]

The above example has so many twists and turns it is hard to follow. If I follow it correctly, the father's brother, which is the son's uncle, witnessed the act and has first hand knowledge. Even with first hand knowledge he should ask himself the questions I listed above or others simular.

Now others, besides the uncle, would have no first hand knowledge. So if they listen to what the uncle claims he saw, and repeat it, it then becomes hearsay. They do not know if the uncle is actually being truthful in his report of what he saw. Since it is hearsay, anyone repeating is should clearly state that it is hearsay as indicated above with the question #2 regarding if something is disputable.

Jesus, of course, knew all truth, and didn't have to worry about whether or not something was disputable.

[Johann]

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Shane said:

The above example has so many twists and turns it is hard to follow.

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So are often the encounters we meet in life. Does that mean that we must act like the Levite and turn our backs on the bleeding Samaritan on the wayside. Who should help us in the twists and turns of life if not our Saviour Jesus Christ, and by reading His Word?

[Guest]

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Shane said:

Let's say I was argueing with a subcontractor, one of his employees called the police, and when the police arrived I was so short with him that he arrested me. Let's say I was charged with assault resulting in bodily injury and assualt on a law officer resulting in bodily injury - even though no assualt occured and no one's body was injuried. Let's say $10,000 bail was set for me to get out of jail.

Now let's say I was indited and hired a lawyer. Let's say it was drug through the courts for a couple of years before the charges were finally dismissed.

Would it be appropriate for the brothers and sisters in the church to talk

among themselves

about this?

Does gossip have to be false in order to be gossip?

---

I would probably come and ask you what happened and if you really did what they said you did... but then again I am nosy like that....

[LifeHiscost]

Hypothetical circumstances considered for determining what one should do seldom lead to truth as one cannot determine truth from that which is not true.

A safe option that would sometimes suffice when confronted with a question from someone asking for hearsay would be to answer with referance to giving information on a "need to know" basis.

[:"red"] "Where there is no wood, the fire goes out; And where there is no talebearer, strife ceases." [/] Proverbs 26:20 NKJV

[ChildofChrist]

Just tacking on here.

About 55 or so years ago, gossip drove a woman out of the church. Seems that her naturally red lips was thought to be lipstick. This lovely woman who played the organ every week was driven from the church.

I recall my grandmother and aunt discussing the matter and how we should not pre-judge anyone. My grandmother knew for a fact that it was only gossip. As I drew closer, she turned to me and said quite simply and quietly, "I hope that you never behave in such a matter when you grow up."

I wish that I could say that never was my experience...As I grow more mature and I hear stories, they don't go past me.

[Naomi]

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Hi Shane,

I don't like gossip at all. I hear people talking about Danny Shelton or Linda Shelton and it's really sad that people's minds have sunk to a soap opera mentality.

I believe we all live in "Glass Houses" and should be careful about what we say.

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Amen

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/seenoevil.gif" alt="" />

[Gail]

The danger to gossip is that so many times it is a means of destroying rather than building up

Whose work is it when we are instruments of destruction?

[Dr. Shane]

Some people defend their toungue wagging by saying that some things need to be talked about and not swept under the carpet.

Let's consider the Catholic phedophilia scandel. Now let's imagine our church had something like this going on. Let's say we had this kind of thing happening with our teachers in universities and academies and the conferences were moving teachers around and covering it up.

Well let's ask the questions I listed:

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1. Is the story true?

2. Are my facts undisputable? (if they are disputable I need to state they are disputable if I repeat them)

3. Will repeating the story harm anyone?

4. How will repeating the story glorify God?

5. Do I want the person I am telling to tell others and let them know I am the source of their information?

6. What is my purpose for repeating the story? What do I hope to achieve?

7. Does the person I am talking about know I am talking about them?

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The way I answer them, I would have to discuss such a grand scandel in hopes of reforming the church. But that is quite different than discussing a single member's sin that I do not believe was dealt with propper by his or her local church. (like my original example)

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Let's say I was argueing with a subcontractor, one of his employees called the police, and when the police arrived I was so short with him that he arrested me. Let's say I was charged with assault resulting in bodily injury and assualt on a law officer resulting in bodily injury - even though no assualt occured and no one's body was injuried. Let's say $10,000 bail was set for me to get out of jail.

|

Now let's say I was indited and hired a lawyer. Let's say it was drug through the courts for a couple of years before the charges were finally dismissed.

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[bevin]

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Let's consider the Catholic phedophilia scandel

...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

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Is the story true?

2. Are my facts undisputable? (if they are disputable I need to state they are disputable if I repeat them)

3. Will repeating the story harm anyone?

4. How will repeating the story glorify God?

5. Do I want the person I am telling to tell others and let them know I am the source of their information?

6. What is my purpose for repeating the story? What do I hope to achieve?

7. Does the person I am talking about know I am talking about them?

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Yep - those were exactly the arguments used to suppress the paedophilia "gossip" for so long - and also the arguments used for quietly shuffling the problem priests around...

Important accusations require appropriate investigation.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

OK, let's look at it from an organizational stand point. An academy teacher is accused of having an affiar with a student.

Q: Is the story true?

A: We need to investigate.

Q: Are my facts undisputable?

A: If the student claims they are, it needs to be reported to the authorities so the facts can be established.

Q: Will repeating the story harm anyone?

A: If handled properly the only harm should be to the guilty party.

Q: How will repeating the story glorify God?

A: By reporting the incident to the authorities justice can be served.

Q: Do I want the person I am telling to tell others and let them know I am the source of their information?

A: Yes, when the press finds out it is best that everyone know the organized church reported the incident to the authorities.

Q: What is my purpose for repeating the story? What do I hope to achieve?

A: Hopefully justice will be served and others will be protected.

Q: Does the person I am talking about know I am talking about them?

A: Yes, he or she was interviewed and asked about the accusations and told what the organized church was going to do (report it to the authorities)

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Now let's look at it from the individual member's prespective that hears rumor that an academy teacher has an affair with a student.

Q: Is the story true?

A: I guess I need to asked the student and school administration.

Q: Are my facts undisputable?

A: If the student and administration deny it they certainly are. If only the administration denies it there is reason for concern.

Q: Will repeating the story harm anyone?

A: Perhaps both student and teacher could be harmed if it is not true. However if the student claims it is true and the administration isn't doing anything, someone needs to report it to the aurthorities (but not whisper it through the church pews).

Q: How will repeating the story glorify God?

A: If it is not true it won't. If it is true it should only be repeated to the authorities and let them take care of it.

Q: Do I want the person I am telling to tell others and let them know I am the source of their information?

A: If the authories release my name to the press as the whistle blower, I can live with that.

Q: What is my purpose for repeating the story? What do I hope to achieve?

A: So the authorities can investigate and justice be served.

Q: Does the person I am talking about know I am talking about them?

A: They may not but it doesn't bother me if they find out either.