Is my take on God's Judgment Hour valid?

[hch]

While working on a Bible study slideshow about God's Judgment Hour, I came across David Gates video and Mark Finley's rebuttal that I shared in another discussion.

I still wonder how can two sincere ministers in the SDA Church be so close and yet so far? But I will leave that for you to ponder if you choose. No need to discuss it here.

I posted the following video about God's Judgment Hour with a clip from David and Mark included. In it I present what I understand about God's Judgment Hour.

The only thing I ask of you is that you watch the entire video before you tear it apart. Then if you have some constructive criticism, it would be a blessing to discuss it. 

The context of this video pose the question: The light is growing brighter, but are many of the shining stars in the Advent movement seeming to fade as the sparks of their own kindling is loosing its glimmer?

This is the link (after comments by David Gates and Mark Finley the Bible study begins):

[NOTE:  I have been notified today, January 15, 2019, that Elder Finley does not wish to have his video used in the manner that HCH has used it.  In addition, Elder Finley has requested that I remove any such use from viewing in this forum.   Therefore, I have removed the video that HCH has posted, and I will remove any other posting of such video.  Please see my additional post for further information--Gregory Matthews.]

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I appreciate the fact that HCH has posted this thread in a section of this forum where we allow him to post material that would not otherwise be allowed to be posted.

I am concerned that his 1 hour and 21 minute video contains material that violated the copyright  rights of Elder Mark Finley.  Therefore, I have sent Elder Finley an e-mail asking him  as to whether or not he has given HCH permission to so use his material.

This being Christmas day, and my contact point with Elder Finley is a business one, I may not receive an immediate response to my question.

So, in the meantime, I am  closing this thread.  If Elder Finley does  not object to the use of his material, I will re-open this thread.  If he objects, I will remove this thread from view as Elder Finley clearly has legal rights to restrict the use of his material.

HCH is welcome to send me a private e-mail through this forum.

Gregory Matthews

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I have been working to contact Mark Finley directly on this matter.  As a retired General Conference Vice President, I believe that the major issue here is an ethical one, rather than legal.

Today (January 2, 2018)  I spoke with a person in the General Conference who is closely associated with Elder Finley.  I have been assured that my concerns will be presented to Elder Finley and that I will be contacted.

 

My effort here has been to be fair to both HCH and to Elder Finley.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I have been informed today (January 8, 2018) that Mark Finley has been notified of the use that HCH has made of his video, and he has been given access to this thread so that's he can review the use that HCH has made of his video.

I would have wished for a faster resolution of this issue.  But, that has not happened.

Onan additional note, my major  issue is NOT a legal one.  I am very well informed as to teh "fair use" provisions of the U.S. copyright law.  I have a question as to whether or not the use of that video clip meet the requirements of the "fair use" provisions of the copyright law.  If I were an attorney litigating this issue, I could find reason to argue either a "yes" or a "no" answer.

My main objection is an ethical one which I have developed in my communication with Mark Finley.  It is on that issue that I am asking  Mark Finley to respond.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Today, January 15, 2019,  I have been notified that Elder Finley has objected to the use that HCH has made of his video and that HCH has requested that I remove that video from any posting in this forum.  I have done so and I will do so if there are any additional postings.

However, we set aside this section of this forum as a place where HCH can post material that would not otherwise be allowed to be posted.  On that basis, I will state, the conditions under which HCH may post his video.  

He may repost his video if he removes any portion of the clip of Elder Finley. 

I want to be very clear:  HCH believes that his use of the Finley clip was legal under the "fair use" doctrine.  I have questions about that.  I could argue either that it was or that it was not permitted.   My decision to remove the  video was not made due to a belief that HCH's use violated the "fair use" doctrine.  It was made for ethical reasons, and at the request of elder Finley. 

Does HCH have to remove the clip from David Gates?  Not at this time.  David Gates has not requested that we remove his clip and I do not believe that I need to contact him and ask if he wishes for us to do so.

Do I believe that the same ethical reasons exist in relation to HCH's use of a clip from David Gates?   At this time I do not.  Therefore, absent any complaint form David Gates, I do not concern myself with this aspect.

 

 

[hch]

When I have the time, I will edit the video and repost it. I have been so busy studying and writing.

And with the sudden death of my mom and everything else that has been happening, it is good to be able to study without interruption.

I'm praying for you Gregory.

[phkrause]

52 minutes ago, hch said:

When I have the time, I will edit the video and repost it. I have been so busy studying and writing.

And with the sudden death of my mom and everything else that has been happening, it is good to be able to study without interruption.

I'm praying for you Gregory.

Sorry to hear about your Mom. Praying for you and your family!!

[Gregory Matthews]

Death is never easy.

Blessings on you in this time of sorrow and stress.

 

[JoeMo]

18 hours ago, hch said:

And with the sudden death of my mom and everything else that has been happening,

My deepest condolences hch.  May God comfort you and your family.

[hch]

Thanks to one and all for you condolences.

It would be easier if she professed faith in Jesus.

[hch]

13 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I humbly submit these for your perusal hch, in the hope that you might experience more hope regarding your Mother. I do know that I have found these scriptures reassuring to the point where I now trust God to do what I cannot, and to do THAT even when I cannot from my viewpoint see the results: Of course, it is up to you to decipher your own personal application; I just know how its been for me:

Outcasts Received by Christ

The Lepers Mat 8:3

The Publicans and Harlots Mat 21:31, Luk 7:29

The Sinful Women Luk 7:47, Jhn 8:11

Despised Sinners Luk 15:2

The Dying Thief Luk 23:43

The Excommunicated Blind Man Jhn 9:35

Those who seek Jesus will find Him and He is merciful. Those who walk with the Lord and turn from Him (turning His holy Sabbath into a common work day) do not have any hope that their sins will be glossed over in the Judgment.

[It is still an festering sore. Time will heal the sadness, the anger, and the regret.]

[Gregory Matthews]

I am sorry that you see it that way.  

[hch]

When Paul admonishes Christians to put on the whole armor of God, rose colored glasses are not included in the attire.

[stinsonmarri]

On 1/16/2019 at 8:05 AM, The Wanderer said:

When I have the time, I will edit the video and repost it. I have been so busy studying and writing.

And with the sudden death of my mom and everything else that has been happening, it is good to be able to study without interruption.

I'm praying for you Gregory.

I am so very sorry about the lost of your mother Henry. I lost my mother two years ago and I still feel a loss. YAHWEH can truly fix it. With love and prayers!

Bless you, Henry!

[NOTE:  The quote above was stated by HCH.  It was not made by The Wanderer--GM.]

[stinsonmarri]

On 2/1/2019 at 11:37 AM, stinsonmarri said:

NOTE:  The quote above was stated by HCH.  It was not made by The Wanderer--GM.]

I am having a lot of problems with this web site only and I have written to Stan about it!

[hch]

I removed the content from the video that Gregory opposed. As soon as my computer updates the file, I will post the edited video.

Yesterday, when I discussed my latest book "The Last Trump Shall Sound OR Michael Stands" [whittling the title down to one or the other] with a prospective publisher, I was reminded that the 10 virgins all have the same opportunity, but 5 awaken in time and 5 awake too late to be admitted into the wedding celebration. It makes me wonder if those who are awake will be instrumental to awaken their fellow  sleeping virgins? Or if some of the sleeping virgins will arouse just enough to sooth their fellow virgins like a mother trying to quiet a baby so that it won't wake the others in the home? 

An FYI...Synopsis:

The Last Trump Shall Sound starts  by studying, who is Babylon? Is the Church that is steeped in the fornication scandal the Babylon that God has called His people to come out of? Then it takes a quick look at prophecy … Ellen White's role for us today. Then it considers rightly dividing the word of truth. It reviews some surprising revelations from Daniel and Revelation, and it concludes with Michael standing for his people. The Appendix is Elihu and the Sabbath. 5 chapters 160 pages. [The publisher I consulted read it overnight and stated, "I agree with many of your conclusions... You will not have any difficulty finding a publisher for this material, but I am not able to publish it....] An Amazon book? A different publisher? An e-book? With much prayer, I will go forward!

[phkrause]

2 hours ago, hch said:

I was reminded that the 10 virgins all have the same opportunity, but 5 awaken in time and 5 awake too late to be admitted into the wedding celebration.

Here's the parable and you tell me where it says that 5 woke up and 5 woke up late?? From what I read it says they all woke up together!!

1 "The Kingdom of Heaven at that time will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom. 

2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible. 

3 The foolish ones took lamps with them but no oil, 

4whereas the others took flasks of oil with their lamps. 

5 Now the bridegroom was late, so they all went to sleep. 

6 It was the middle of the night when the cry rang out, `The bridegroom is here! Go out to meet him!' 

7 The girls all woke up and prepared their lamps for lighting. 

8 The foolish ones said to the sensible ones, `Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.' 

9 `No,' they replied, `there may not be enough for both you and us. Go to the oil dealers and buy some for yourselves.' 

10 But as they were going off to buy, the bridegroom came. Those who were ready went with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. 

11 Later, the other bridesmaids came. `Sir! Sir!' they cried, `Let us in!'

12 But he answered, `Indeed! I tell you, I don't know you!'

[hch]

phkrause ,

Did a word study of verse 5 "slumbered and slept" some years ago

slumbered:

1) to nod in sleep, to sleep 
1a) to be overcome or oppressed with sleep 
1b) to fall asleep, drop off to sleep 
2) to be negligent, careless 
2a) of a thing i.e. to linger, delay

slept:

1) to fall asleep, drop off to sleep 
2) to sleep 
2a) to sleep normally 
2b) euphemistically, to be dead

There is a big difference between those who dose off and those who are dead. If the foolish virgins woke up to their need earlier and sought the Character of Jesus, they would have found Him. "Seek and ye shall find." There is hope that the frozen chosen dozen  will wake in time, but the dead won't wake in time. They will have to await the resurrection that comes after the marriage supper. That is how I read it. Do a complete word study and surprise yourself with some of the things that are hidden in this parable. The KJV is very inconsistent with its translation.

From Daniel's perspective, the foolish virgins are classed among the wicked. Daniel says that the wise will understand, but the wicked will not. If ever there was a chance that we were asleep, now is the acceptable time to check out our status. 

The Laodicean message is one of recognized need vs needs that are not recognized in time to be met. Note that the parable of the 10 virgins is linked with Laodicea in this quote.

Quote

Although the oil in the lamps is almost consumed, and they have not been replenished, still you have not yet reached that desperate position described in the parable of the foolish virgins. They slumbered long, until their lamps were gone out, and they had made no provision for the time of need; and when the Bridegroom came, they were seeking, too late, to replenish their lamps: for the door was shut, and they were left to outer darkness and despair. But the counsel of the True Witness is full of encouragement and comfort. The churches may yet obtain the gold of truth, faith, and love, and be rich in heavenly treasure. "Buy of me gold that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear." The white raiment is the righteousness of Christ that may be wrought into the character. Purity of heart, purity of motive, will characterize every one who is washing his robe, and making it white in the blood of the Lamb.  {RH, July 24, 1888 par. 3}  

The message of the Investigative Judgment is get right with God NOW while Jesus in interceding in the Sanctuary. Do not wait until He leaves the sanctuary. So perhaps I have combined the three messages in my mind to come to the conclusion that the foolish virgins will not wake in time!

That is how I read it.

[hch]

22 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

well; all I know is I am not a virgin and I never will be one so I guess I lucked out on this parable.

Your attempt at humor is noted

[Gregory Matthews]

I consider that there are some things that the public just does not need to know about me.

[hch]

The video was delayed because of technical difficulty. But that has been resolved. Thanks for your patience.

 

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, hch said:

The video was delayed because of technical difficulty. But that has been resolved.

((( GROAN!!!)))

Henry,

You are obviously very sincere about your message;  but I say with all sincerity and concern that - IMHO - you continue to bark up the wrong tree.  As I search scripture, nowhere do I see any country explicitly named in scripture that is outside of the Middle East, North Africa, or Asia Minor.  When I look at maps of the succession of empires in world history, I see the Kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece overlapping each other.  The suddenly Rome shows up and the region of the Empire moves 1500 miles to the west?  The Kingdoms previous to Rome all encompassed Asia Minor.  Go ask Iranians (Persians) or Iraqis (Medes) if Rome succeeded Greece as ruling over them.  They will say "no ; the Parthians succeeded Greece in ruling over them; and then is was the Ottoman Empire".

We western Christians interpret scripture from a western POV, forgetting that the Bible was written predominantly about Israel, by Israelites, to other Israelites.  Almost all events documented in scripture take place in the Middle East and Asia Minor.

If Rome is such a big deal in eschatology, why is it never mentioned explicitly in scripture?  John most certainly knew all about Rome; he lived in times of Roman occupation and was imprisoned and tortured by Romans.  If Rome is the big Bad Guy, why doesn't he name them explicitly?  God had no problem naming Cyrus explicitly hundreds of years before his reign.  He had no problem naming Medo-Persia or Greece as empires to succeed Babylon.  So it seems if Rome were the big Bad Guy, he would have directed John to name them specifically.

I'm not saying that Rome or the U.S won't have any role in the end times, just saying that currently, I only see them as players rather than the main villain.  You (and anyone else) is free to disagree.  I am simply expressing an opinion; not a dogma.

[hch]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

((( GROAN!!!)))

Henry,

You are obviously very sincere about your message;  but I say with all sincerity and concern that - IMHO - you continue to bark up the wrong tree.  As I search scripture, nowhere do I see any country explicitly named in scripture that is outside of the Middle East, North Africa, or Asia Minor.  When I look at maps of the succession of empires in world history, I see the Kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece overlapping each other.  The suddenly Rome shows up and the region of the Empire moves 1500 miles to the west?  The Kingdoms previous to Rome all encompassed Asia Minor.  Go ask Iranians (Persians) or Iraqis (Medes) if Rome succeeded Greece as ruling over them.  They will say "no ; the Parthians succeeded Greece in ruling over them; and then is was the Ottoman Empire".

We western Christians interpret scripture from a western POV, forgetting that the Bible was written predominantly about Israel, by Israelites, to other Israelites.  Almost all events documented in scripture take place in the Middle East and Asia Minor.

If Rome is such a big deal in eschatology, why is it never mentioned explicitly in scripture?  John most certainly knew all about Rome; he lived in times of Roman occupation and was imprisoned and tortured by Romans.  If Rome is the big Bad Guy, why doesn't he name them explicitly?  God had no problem naming Cyrus explicitly hundreds of years before his reign.  He had no problem naming Medo-Persia or Greece as empires to succeed Babylon.  So it seems if Rome were the big Bad Guy, he would have directed John to name them specifically.

I'm not saying that Rome or the U.S won't have any role in the end times, just saying that currently, I only see them as players rather than the main villain.  You (and anyone else) is free to disagree.  I am simply expressing an opinion; not a dogma.

Brother JoeMo,

Rome is mentioned in Daniel 7 when the prophecy transitions from the pagan Roman empire to papal Roman. The little horn that comes to power is the pope when three horns are plucked up. And Revelation 13 focuses on the papal sea-beast that yields its authority to the earth-beast with the lamblike horns.  So if you are not seeing the papacy in Bible prophecy, perhaps you are not reading it as I do and as the SDA Church has been trying to preach it since the 1800's. Knowledge has increased. 

Now that we are at the end of the prophecy, so much more is understandable now than ever before.

Christian Regards,

[hch]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

I think you would likely be quite shocked at the spirit of prophecy phrase "sparks of their own kindling" and how it applies to each of us very personally.

I notice that your messages consistently like to quote phrases and snippets that would make it seem as though somehow, what you are saying, is superior to most anyone else. Regardless of what your intent is; thats exactly how it comes across....which leads us right back to those "sparks..."

It can be noted that sparks generate a lot of heat and go out quickly, as opposed to Light which shines continually in the dark. And thats just what prophecy is: a light that shineth in the dark." (2 Pet 1:19), and THATS why its called "a more sure word."  Regretfully, the message you are posting is NOT in the "more sure" category.

Perception is in the eye of the beholder.

I know what I know and I know it because I have studied it rather than feasting on Pablum predigested by those who are passing it along without verifying all the details along the way. I do not have a problem with others disagreeing with me if they are knowledgeable about what they are saying. I find it sad that some folks come across as being knowledgeable when they clearly do not know what they are talking about.

So I present what I know at the time and hope that the fact checkers will look at the facts and tell me if I am out of sync with reality. Though I rarely get loving feedback that is fact based, I get plenty of opinion that is inconsistent with Scripture. 

Regarding my snippets. Rightly dividing the word of truth is more valuable than a chain of false assumptions.

My newest manuscript is so short and to the point that it cuts across a lot of this traditional nonsense that has crept into the church since 1844. But it is not for everyone, because many are called but few are chosen. 

It is written that Christ's sheep hear His voice and follow Him. That is my goal. I hope it is yours tool

Christian regards

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, hch said:

The little horn that comes to power is the pope when three horns are plucked up.

Where does it say "the pope" or "Rome" explicitly?  Where is the mention of any countries or people groups outside of North Africa, Asia Minor, or the Middle East mentioned in eschatology?

Again, I'm not saying that the West or the Pope don't have a role in end-time prophecy;  I just can't accept your view of things.  It's just too convoluted.  I also trust that if by some chance you are correct, that God loves me enough that He will show it to me before the end.