Fresno's Mass Murder's son claims he is an Adventist

[Guest]

So as to appreciate His work on this planet..His experiences are to be our experiences...

He was the victim of prejudice, sterotyping, and misinformation....

"can anything good come out of Nazareth?"

[Stan]

Here is a question, that crosses my mind when things like this happen,

Should the adventist church step in and offer to do the funerals for the victims?

[Nicodema]

I think that should be left to whomever arranges for the victims' funerals. I think the church should do them if asked.

This kind of thing is totally out of my depth; I have no idea what would be the right thing for the church or its leaders to do in this kind of situation. I don't even know if we should stay "quiet" or give a response; get "involved" or keep out ... I can only pray God will give those who will make those decisions much wisdom, compassion and grace.

[cricket]

Stay quiet or get involved...

I guess simply by talking about this with our family and friends we are "getting involved."

I like what you wrote earlier about there being no such thing as bad press. It is an opportunity for us all to witness even more.

[Nicodema]

Yeah, well, that one came from the Lord! It's not too difficult to see the difference between His thoughts ... and my own ... !!

[Stan]

SOURCE http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/8190050.htm

Slaying suspect led nomadic life

FRESNO MAN, FAMILY MOVED AMONG SEVERAL LOCALES

By Crystal Carreon, Lisa Fernandez and Brandon Bailey

Mercury News

FRESNO - Mass murder suspect Marcus Wesson, the intimidating patriarch of a large and allegedly incestuous clan, lived an erratic, nomadic lifestyle on the fringes of society for more than 15 years.

While some family members defended Wesson as a loving father, others who encountered him over the years described him Sunday as controlling and stern. One neighbor said she heard Wesson lay down a chilling ultimatum on the afternoon that nine members of his extended family were found dead in his home.

``I'd rather kill them before I give them back to you,'' Linda Morales said she heard Wesson shout Friday, shortly before two women called police to say he was refusing to let them take their children from the house.

Wesson and his family had moved several times in recent years, from a small boat anchored at the Santa Cruz harbor, to a squatter's haven in the mountains outside Watsonville, before settling at the site of what Fresno police are calling the worst massacre in their city's history.

The scene inside that house, where bodies lay intertwined in a pile, was so ghastly that some of the first arriving officers have been placed on leave and given counseling, authorities said. Wesson, 57, is being held on suspicion of murder in the Fresno County Jail, with bail set at $9 million.

After announcing Saturday that Wesson had fathered two of the youngest victims by impregnating his own daughters, police had no more to say Sunday about what led to the killings.

But some acquaintances said Wesson's mental condition and physical appearance had begun to deteriorate in recent years.

``We would be talking about the roof,'' said Frank Muna, who sold a home to members of Wesson's family, ``and he would go off on a tangent about a social issue, like the system was bent against him.''

Muna also recalled complaints from neighbors that Wesson lived a polygamist lifestyle with four adult women, who dressed in black from head to toe and were always quiet in front of the older man.

``It was very clear that they were subservient to him,'' said Muna, who also came to believe that Wesson had a physically intimate relationship with the women. Wesson told Muna that two of the women were his nieces.

``They would walk behind him and look down,'' Muna added. ``Whatever he said, they would do. It was clear he was the one in control.''

Family members have denied allegations that Wesson committed incest. Police have said they are looking into the possibility of his having sexual relations with other family members in addition to his two daughters. Eliza Whitney, a longtime acquaintance and neighbor of Wesson's mother-in-law, said he had also impregnated two of his nieces and had a prior relationship with his wife's mother.

Wesson met his wife, Elizabeth, when his family lived near hers in East San Jose during the 1960s, according to Elizabeth's sister, Rosemary Solorio. In a brief interview, she described her sister's husband as religious, loving and a good provider for his family. Relatives say Wesson is a Seventh-day Adventist. In a press release issued Sunday, the Adventist church said it had no record of Wesson being a member.

Others who knew him over the years said Wesson appeared to be struggling to support his extended family.

In the early 1990s, Wesson apparently lived at the Santa Cruz harbor with a handful of young children in a battered, 26-foot sailboat that had no toilet or bathing facilities. Veteran harbor worker Tim Morely said he never saw the children's mother, but he distinctly remembers the kids scavenging cans and bottles for recycling.

Though Wesson was known as something of a ``character,'' Morely said, he was ``pretty mellow and easygoing. He's not somebody I ever thought would do anything violent in any way.''

Wesson was often behind in paying his slip rental fee, however. And the Santa Cruz Sentinel reported that he was briefly jailed on a conviction for welfare fraud in 1990.

In the mid-1990s, sometime after Wesson and his family left the harbor, residents in a remote area of the Santa Cruz Mountains recall that Wesson, his wife and 14 children began living in a deeply secluded patch of woods.

Neighbors believe the family was squatting illegally on the property, living in a vehicle or a trailer of some kind, according to Jennifer Wuthers, whose house is about a mile down an unpaved road from the site.

It's not unusual for drifters and even fugitives to camp out in the area, Wuthers said, and no one felt the need to notify authorities. But she said the family was memorable because Elizabeth Wesson seemed extremely quiet and was apparently schooling the children at home.

A few years later, Wesson surfaced in Fresno, where he first approached Muna as an ``adviser'' to four women who ultimately purchased a historic but dilapidated house that Muna owned.

Though he initially found Wesson to be intelligent and well-spoken, Muna said, he became frustrated because the group fell behind on a promise to restore the house and neighbors complained that they were living on the property in a tool shed that lacked plumbing.

It was about a year ago that Wesson and several members of his family moved to another house in Fresno, on Hammond Street. Neighbors say there were several children. The boys were allowed to play outdoors, but the girls were kept inside.

Two weeks ago, one of the women who lived with Wesson came to neighbor Linda Morales' home and pleaded to use her phone. Morales said Wesson came over a short time later and yelled at the woman, telling her to come home with him. The woman stayed until dawn before returning home.

Then on Friday, neighbors say, a number of adults drove up to the house where Wesson lived. There was shouting, followed shortly after by gunshots.

A coroner's official told Fresno television station KFSM that all the victims appeared to have been shot, and that authorities are still investigating the possibility that one victim may have also fired shots.

[Gus Foster]

Paul Harvey, who was raised in an Adventist home, in his noon news program did not mention the Wesson case by name. But instead, he quoted from the sermon of Pastor Charles White of the Phoenix, Ar. church from last Sabbath's service about being like migrating geese. It was very positive and shed marvelous light on Adventists and their teachings. Good for him, good for all of us.

[Stan]

SOURCE http://www.in-forum.com/ap/index.cfm?page=view&id=D81B281G1

Six of Nine Fresno Victims Were Shot

By JULIANA BARBASSA Associated Press Writer

The Associated Press - 03/15/2004

FRESNO, Calif.

At least six of the nine family members discovered slain in a Fresno home over the Weekend had been shot to death, the coroner's office said Monday.

Investigators were still working to determine the cause of deaths of the three others. The victims were found tangled in a pile of clothes when police went to the home about a child custody dispute Friday.

Marcus Wesson, thought to be the father and grandfather of the victims, walked out of the home covered in blood and was booked on suspicion of nine counts of murder.

Police said Wesson, 57, may have been involved in polygamy and is thought to have fathered children with at least four women, including two of his own daughters.

Police said Wesson has cooperated with the investigation, but no motive had been determined.

Wesson's arraignment was scheduled for Wednesday, and bail was set at $9 million.

Authorities expected to complete the autopsies later Monday and release the names of the victims: a 24-year-old woman and eight children ranging in age from 1 to 17.

Coroner Loralee Cervantes told the Fresno Bee that police conducted tests to determine if there was gunshot residue on the hands of one of the victims, indicating Wesson may have had help with the shootings. Police Lt. Herman Silva said that checking for residue is standard practice.

Acquaintances said Wesson and his family appeared to live a nomadic, insular existence. The family moved several times in recent years, from a small boat anchored off Santa Cruz to the mountains outside Watsonville, before settling in Fresno.

In the early 1990s, Wesson lived with a few children on a battered, 26-foot sailboat that had no toilet or bathing facilities.

During that time, he was jailed briefly after being convicted of welfare fraud, the Santa Cruz Sentinel reported. Wesson failed to list his boat as an asset on welfare forms. He also was frequently delinquent with his slip fees, the newspaper said.

Others acquaintances said Wesson appeared with women and children who seemed to be under his control. Frank Muna, a lawyer who once sold the murder suspect a house, said the women wore dark robes and scarves, walked behind Wesson and did not speak when he was present.

The children were home-schooled because Wesson did not trust public education, his sons said, and Wesson, who did not work, was supported by the women.

His sons, Dorian, 29, who lives in Santa Cruz, and Serafino, 19, who lived at the Fresno house, could not say whether he was married or how many children he has fathered, the Fresno Bee reported. They said the family belonged to the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Associated Press Writers Brian Melley and Brian Skoloff contributed to this report.

[Guest]

For me..it is always on a case by case basis.

I have had people think I was a Mormon or Jehovah Witness..

There are all different levels of personal knowledge out there.

In case a family member asks...I will respond depending on the words and tone of the question.

As far as the knee jerk emotion/reaction..to the news that Wesson was SDA...it was sort of like when a Marine heard that Lee Harvey Oswald was a former Marine...

[Stan]

SOURCE http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/8193849.htm

Coroner: All 9 Fresno victims were shot

By JULIANA BARBASSA

Associated Press

FRESNO, Calif. - All nine family members discovered slain in a Fresno home over the weekend had been shot to death, the coroner's office said Monday.

Investigators were still working to determine the relationships among the victims, who were found tangled in a pile of clothes when police went to the home about a child custody dispute Friday.

Marcus Wesson, thought to be the father and grandfather of the victims, walked out of the home covered in blood and was booked on suspicion of nine counts of murder.

Police said Wesson, 57, may have been involved in polygamy and is thought to have fathered children with at least four women, including two of his own daughters.

Police said Wesson has cooperated with the investigation, but no motive had been determined.

Wesson's arraignment was scheduled for Wednesday; bail was set at $9 million.

Authorities expected to release the names of the victims later: a 24-year-old woman and eight children ranging in age from 1 to 17.

Coroner Loralee Cervantes told the Fresno Bee that police conducted tests to determine if there was gunshot residue on the hands of one of the victims, indicating Wesson may have had help with the shootings. Police Lt. Herman Silva said checking for residue is standard practice.

The victims, who had six different mothers, showed no signs of physical or sexual abuse, Cervantes said Monday.

Acquaintances said Wesson and his family appeared to live a nomadic, insular existence. The family moved several times in recent years, from a small boat anchored off Santa Cruz to the mountains outside Watsonville, before settling in Fresno.

In the early 1990s, Wesson lived with a few children on a battered, 26-foot sailboat that had no toilet or bathing facilities.

During that time, he was jailed briefly after being convicted of welfare fraud, the Santa Cruz Sentinel reported. Wesson failed to list his boat as an asset on welfare forms. He also was frequently delinquent with his slip fees, the newspaper said.

Other acquaintances said Wesson appeared with women and children who seemed to be under his control. Frank Muna, a lawyer who once sold the murder suspect a house, said the women wore dark robes and scarves, walked behind Wesson and did not speak when he was present.

Muna said Monday police interviewing him said Wesson killed his children because he didn't want them taken away from him.

"He really thinks what he did was right," Muna said.

Silva, the police spokesman, refused to confirm Muna's account, saying only, "We're looking at every possible motive and not dismissing anything."

The children were home-schooled because Wesson did not trust public education, his sons said, and Wesson, who did not work, was supported by the women.

Police Chief Jerry Dyer said investigators will likely need DNA testing to determine the biological parents of all the victims. "We're in the very early stages of a very complex investigation," he said.

Wesson's sons, Dorian, 29, who lives in Santa Cruz, and Serafino, 19, who lived at the Fresno house, could not say whether he was married or how many children he has fathered, the Fresno Bee reported. They said the family belonged to the Seventh-day Adventist church. A church spokeswoman said Monday there's no record of Wesson's membership.

(Associated Press Writers Brian Melley and Brian Skoloff contributed to this report.)

[Bob Carmin]

I could not click on your link. I clicked it, but it did not work. I then noticed that the whole web address was not part of the link. I had to manually type in ,2933,114154,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114154,00.html

I pasted it here to see if it works. Maybe the problem is with my computer but just in case it isn't I posted this message.

[Stan]

FoxNews does someting different, they use commas, never seen that done before and it switches you back to the main page.

[Stan]

here it is []http://www.clubadventist.com/ubbthreads/attachments/116290-charges2.jpg[/]

[Stan]

SOURCE http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fresno19mar19,1,3161849.story?coll=la-home-local

CALIFORNIA

Family Tries to Fathom Killings in Fresno

FRESNO CA

MASS MURDERS

POLYGAMY

CALIFORNIA

FRESNO CA MASS MURDERS FAMILIES POLYGAMY

FAMILIES

By Mark Arax, Times Staff Writer

FRESNO — The man accused of killing nine of his children and grandchildren in a mass murder involving polygamy and incest grew up in a sheltered world shaped by two hard-working parents and the strict ways of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

People searching for clues to Marcus Wesson's alleged crimes need not look at his childhood, his elderly mother said Thursday.

"The Marcus Wesson on TV I don't recognize. That's not my son," Carrie Wesson told The Times from her home in Washington state. "The Marcus Wesson I raised was a brilliant, loving, God-fearing child."

One week after the worst mass murder in Fresno's history, as the image of the stout man with a face full of bushy hair and dreadlocks to his knees found its way across the globe, members of his family tried to fathom what forces might have pushed him over the edge.

His mother said he had called her two days before last Friday's killings to inquire about his father, who is fighting cancer. He sounded upbeat, she recalled, saying he was hard at work converting another school bus into a gleaming motor home so his younger children could see the country.

"He was so concerned about his father. He ended every conversation with 'I love you, Dad. I love you, Mom.' He never forgot our birthdays. Never forgot Mother's Day. And he felt the same way about those kids.

"To make him do this, there must have been some big trauma. Something that pushed him over," she said. "My son was not an animal. My son was loved."

Relatives said they remained baffled over a possible motive. Wesson never told them he felt cornered, that he was facing eviction from yet another house or that the estranged mothers of his young children were demanding custody.

"If Marcus is guilty, I would really feel disappointed in my country if it didn't make him face the penalty," his mother said. "But I'm a biblical person too, and I don't believe in capital punishment.

"What I would like for Marcus to do is sit in prison and think about what he's done and read the Bible. I think he will come back. Spiritually he will come back. Because I want to see my son in heaven someday," she said, sobbing.

Members of his family recalled the boy born in Kansas who could put together intricate puzzles that confounded adults, who constructed go-carts and electric cars out of parts picked up at flea markets and passed on this love of building to his children.

"My dad wanted his children to make something out of nothing," said his oldest son, Dorian Wesson, 29. "If I wanted a toy, he'd buy the wood and supplies and tell me to use my imagination and create what I wanted.

"He didn't trust the outside world. Public schools, kids taking drugs, gangbanging, computers and TV. That was considered corrupt. He wanted something better for us. I grew up feeling free."

Marcus Wesson lived an odd life, they acknowledged, fathering two sets of children — 16 altogether — in different parts of California. There was Dorian and an older group of sons and daughters who ranged in age from 17 to 29 and were raised by one mother. They grew up following their father as he moved from one renovation project to another, houses in San Jose, Santa Cruz and Fresno and boats in Marin County.

And there was a second group of children ages 8 and younger who were born to different mothers and lived with Wesson in a small house in a working-class neighborhood of central Fresno. Those children are now all dead.

His mother and oldest son said they were never aware that Wesson had a sexual relationship with two of his own daughters and that two of the deceased children were products of incest.

"I thought it was strange that my sisters had these babies and they never said who the fathers were," Dorian Wesson recalled. "They told me the kids came from artificial insemination, and I believed them."

As perverse as the family dynamic became, they said, Wesson held on to some of the core values he grew up with. He loved his children and tried to safeguard them from the more negatives aspects of American culture. Despite media speculation, they said, he wasn't a member of any fringe sect.

"Our family is a good family," Carrie Wesson said. "This is a Christian family. This is not a cult."

From the earliest age, she said, her son exhibited a nimble mind for building things and a big heart for rescuing animals. He was their first child — an earlier pregnancy ended in a still birth — and she and her husband, Benjamin Franklin Wesson, doted on him. They had a tall stack of gospel records, and she'd tell him she wanted to hear one song in particular and he knew exactly where to find it.

"He was only 2 years old and I'd say I'm in the mood to hear 'I Don't Possess Houses of Gold,' and that little Marcus would hunt through those albums in nothing flat and put it on the old-fashioned turntable."

He cared for lizards, snakes and toads and once found a dog left for dead in a trash can. "I told him, 'That dog's dead,' but he wouldn't believe me. 'Momma, I can hear a faint heartbeat.' He fed it milk all day and night and brought it back to life."

After the family left Kansas and moved to the San Jose area, they remained devoted members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They worshiped on Saturdays, didn't attend dances, dressed modestly and kept to a vegetarian diet.

"His entertainment was the church. He wasn't running around seeing what little girl he could catch," his mother said. "Instead, he'd be at the table eating food, always stuffing his face. That's why he got that big."

She said he grew up in a solid middle-class home with a father who had a steady job, though she declined to say what it was. "I want to keep our privacy as much as possible," she explained. In his teenage years, her son began to build all sorts of motorized vehicles out of shopping carts and scrap metal. One caught the eye of an engineering professor at Stanford, she said.

"I know I'm bragging, but this professor asked Marcus where he got his training to build it. Marcus told him he didn't have any degrees, no formal education beyond high school. He told him, 'It's a gift from God.' "

During the Vietnam War, Wesson was stationed in Germany and came home with a different political outlook, she said.

"We always liked nice things, nice furniture, but Marcus said we were too materialistic. He got married and kind of dropped out," she recalled. "I wouldn't say he became a hippie, but he had some of that hippie lifestyle."

Wesson met Elizabeth Solorio in San Jose and married her when she was 15. They had five boys — Dorian, Adrian, Almae, Marcus and Serafino — and four girls — Sebhrenah, Kiani, Gypsy and Elizabeth. Wesson has been charged with fatally shooting both Sebhrenah, 25, and Elizabeth, 17.

"Dad home-schooled us," Dorian said. "He taught us algebra and trigonometry. We kept to the Seventh-day Adventist teachings, but we didn't go to church as often."

They lived in a modest house his father built in the Santa Cruz Mountains and then sold the house for three acres nearby. "We flip-flopped from San Jose to Santa Cruz to Fresno when I was 10. And then we moved back to Santa Cruz."

Carrie Wesson recalls her son buying a bus and renovating it into a motor home. "It was a piece of junk when he bought it," she said, "and he turned it into something beautiful. It had a shower, beds and a laundry room with a chute for dirty clothes."

In 1998, Wesson and wife Elizabeth returned to Fresno, while Dorian and several of the older siblings found jobs and stayed on the coast. It was about this time that Wesson began living with several women — women related to each other — and having more children.

The women worked as hotel clerks and restaurant waitresses. Wesson had enough money to indulge his passion for expensive antique and reproduction furniture. He was a frequent visitor to Dugovic's antique store in Fresno, where 11 hand-carved coffins from Indonesia caught his eye in the late 1990s. He bought the coffins for about $5,000 with the idea of using their mahogany on one the boats he still owned in Marin County, said owner Lois Dugovic.

Wesson put a lot of dreams into a historic home in the middle of Fresno that had been gutted by fire, his family said. He and the women put a down payment on the house and began renovating it. He built an elaborate roof and did the framing by himself, but he ran out of money and defaulted on the loan.

They moved into the house on West Hammond, and he and the women began spending more time renovating a new bus — this one with bright yellow paint, gleaming chrome sides and even a spa in the back. It was halfway done when the killings stopped everything.

Wesson had kept the coffins, stacked in the living room, as part of a plan to move back to the coast and fix up the boats, family members say.

"He told me, 'Momma, you won't believe it. I'm back into another bus. This one's going to be as nice as the last one,' " his mother said. "He sounded good. He was a beautiful and caring man. Some big trauma. Something big pushed him over."

[Nicodema]

Quote:

---

Relatives said they remained baffled over a possible motive.

Wesson never told them

he felt cornered, that he was facing eviction from yet another house or that the estranged mothers of his young children were demanding custody

---

quote from above article ... emphasis mine.

I wonder if this statement holds the clue. I wonder whether "some big trauma" really did "push him over" the edge. I cannot help but think of how terribly great is the pressure in these "loving families" from "good Christian homes" to maintain a "status quo" of cheerfulness, warmth, and gentility while stuffing real problems, pains, lonelinesses, heartaches, doubts and difficulties beneath the surface in shame and fear. This story is all too familiar. I don't think it took a big trauma to push him over the edge. More likely it was the cumulative effect of a lifetime of having to hide beneath the required facade in the name of being a good Christian, a good son, a good family man, living up to the expectations of a mercilessly impeccable standard set as high as the heavens are above the earth, a standard that not only demands the 120% best of you 24/7, but foresight and insight typically possessed only by God Himself, an ability to read minds and predict the future (thus avoiding entanglement in things unawares), and the ubiquitous smile, cheery countenance, carefree demeanor, and total illusion of constant smooth sailing no matter how rough things really get or what you really feel. The opposite of authenticity.

This is the sort of thing I harp about because it is the sort of thing I see over and over again, and closer to home, recognize in myself. It is the sort of thing I do not WANT to get caught up into, but the way Christian society seems to operate it is all but demanded and emotionally extorted from you. I get terrified (and as a result -- defensive, paranoid, depressed, despairing and discouraged) when I feel myself being sucked in and pulled under by that tide. The devil hits me harder and more destructively there than with all the "pleasure" or "forbidden fruit" type temptations put together.

And then the attitude when someone finally admits the emperor is naked? They fell away -- they couldn't cut it -- they weren't up to snuff -- they weren't sincere enough or devoted enough.

Outsiders and non-believers look at us and can see this as plain as the nose on their own faces. In a vast quantity of cases this forms a central reason why they are not among our number.

Please...I'm begging my brothers and sisters in the church and in the faith: please, let's do something about this before it destroys more of us. (Even if it's not what happened to Marcus Wesson ... it is still happening to far too many of us on a regular basis.) Let's be people who value authenticity above appearance, image and reputation -- who value the experience of hearing another's troubles and bearing another's burden above our selfish need to have nothing but shinyhappyupbeat input from others all the time, 24/7, so that WE will "not be dragged down" (whatever THAT means).

[Jeannieb43]

Stan, You are amazing!!

Before I could even open my L.A.Times this morning, you had already posted the entire article! And at 3:00 a.m., too!

Anyway, I just came back to this thread to acknowledge that the mainstream press has now begun to include the SDA Church connection in its news reports of this tragedy.

I find it heartening that the L.A.Times at least waited until after the SDA Central California Conference had made its announcement [that some of Wesson's children were indeed SDA members, and that Wesson himself had actually attended SDA churches at some point] before beginning to include the SDA connection in its news reports.

I rely on this newspaper quite a bit to be fair and honest in its reporting, and this confirms that position for me.

--And of course, Stan, we all rely on you!

[Jeannieb43]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I cannot help but think of how terribly great is the pressure in these "loving families" from "good Christian homes" to maintain a "status quo" of cheerfulness, warmth, and gentility while stuffing real problems, pains, lonelinesses, heartaches, doubts and difficulties beneath the surface in shame and fear.

... I don't think it took a big trauma to push him over the edge. More likely it was the cumulative effect of a lifetime of having to hide beneath the required facade in the name of being a good Christian, a good son, a good family man, living up to the expectations of a mercilessly impeccable standard set as high as the heavens are above the earth,...

I get terrified (and as a result -- defensive, paranoid, depressed, despairing and discouraged) when I feel myself being sucked in and pulled under by that tide.

...

Please...I'm begging my brothers and sisters in the church and in the faith: please, let's do something about this before it destroys more of us. (Even if it's not what happened to Marcus Wesson ... it is still happening to far too many of us on a regular basis.)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Good point, Nico. We should all be more accepting of one another.

But please don't beat yourself up. Nobody knows what went on in Wesson's mind. We all deal with our own sets of stresses [demons may be too strong a word in most cases].... We all fight the good fight of faith, daily.

Holding another person to one's own standard is WRONG. We should each face God directly, with Scriptures in hand, and study for ourselves how we should act. (There are some even here on this board who attempt to set up standards for others. IMHO we must not take that literally, only as suggestions for further study.)

But from my vicarious contacts with the mentally ill (through my late husband's teaching and 45 years of psychiatric medical practice) I perceive that Wesson was not well mentally. He probably could have been helped with medication. But those who need it most sometimes refuse to seek it.

None of us should fear psychiatric or psychologic therapy, any more than we would fear consulting an orthopedist for a fractured arm. Oh that Mr. Wesson had had someone to steer him in that direction! [i keep wondering how this "home schooling" got past the State Dept. of Education authorities. My daughter-in-law homeschooled her children in kindergarten, and she had a prescribed curriculum and required documentation which had to be filed with the State. I just can't figure out how these kids slipped through the cracks. But that's another thread....]

[Nicodema]

Quote:

---

But from my vicarious contacts with the mentally ill (through my late husband's teaching and 45 years of psychiatric medical practice) I perceive that Wesson was not well mentally. He probably could have been helped with medication. But those who need it most sometimes refuse to seek it.

---

I definitely got that impression - that he was not well mentally.

It brings up an interesting spiritual dilemma -- not just the usual one about faith and "soft sciences" like psychology, but the question of how much "keeping oneself unspotted by the world" is too much. Everyone has a different idea of where the line between faith and extremes/fanaticism is drawn. I've seen some people draw it wherever they start to be personally inconvenienced or did not want to be persuaded to accept responsibility for their consumer choices, etc. and some even go so far as to insinuate that those who think we should be concerned about those kinds of things are being fanatical, extremist, or over the fringe so to speak. Everyday mainstream society certainly does seem to have an oppressive load of requirements and intrusions in order to live within its boundaries comfortably, and the temptation to retreat to a trailer in the desert is always there for folks who are sensitive, creative and intelligent, gifted in some way, as Marcus Wesson seems to have been; as David Koresh doubtless was too, and even Charles Manson. We don't typically think of activities such as homeschooling children or renovating older structures to serve as domiciles to be outre or bizarre ... so how are we to know where that line is drawn? Clearly before communal incest gets involved, obviously, but ... where?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

Outsiders and non-believers look at us and can see this as plain as the nose on their own faces. In a vast quantity of cases this forms a central reason why they are not among our number.

Please...I'm begging my brothers and sisters in the church and in the faith: please, let's do something about this before it destroys more of us. (Even if it's not what happened to Marcus Wesson ... it is still happening to far too many of us on a regular basis.) Let's be people who value authenticity above appearance, image and reputation -- who value the experience of hearing another's troubles and bearing another's burden above our selfish need to have nothing but shinyhappyupbeat input from others all the time, 24/7, so that WE will "not be dragged down" (whatever THAT means).

---

Certainly not wishing to give the impression there might not be numerous answers to help meet inquiring minds, nor that I have even a small modicum of those answers, it does appear that the labyrinthian courses to follow, formulated by the best intelligentsia man has to offer, is insufficient

to answer two of the critical mysteries of fallen man's experience.

[:"red"]"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work...." [/] 2 Thess 2:7

[:"red"]"...great is the mystery of godliness..." [/] 1 Tim 3:16

However since the mystery of lawlessness has only brought pain when pursued, it seemed the better part of wisdom to pursue the mystery of godliness.

[:"red"]"For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline(sound mind)." [/]

2 Tim 1:7

Man often draws two erroneous conclusions that cause great damage to the body of Christ. One is that just because I have failed my Master in certain points of conduct, all others have also, or at least things just as salacious.

The other erroneous conclusion is that just because I have failed to meet the goals set out for me by Jesus, all other of His professed followers are failing miserably also; they're just lying about their good conduct as any hypocrite would.

By drawing these conclusions we not only become 'accusers of the brethren' based on finding guilt by association, but we also make out God to be a liar, Who has promised victory over sin to those who submit to His rule.

[:"red"]"Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you...

Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exhalt you." [/] James 4:7,8

[:"red"]"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." [/]John 15:5

What does this have to do with Wesson. It reveals that one can be very religious as a member of any Christian body, and still sink to the lowest levels of depravity if Jesus is not a personal Friend as we personally seek and invite Him into our lives to gain the victory over mindless evil we have no control over. And that on a moment by moment experience.

And if we stumble???

[:"red"]"And you shall seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." [/]Jer 29:13

[:"red"]"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for He who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." [/]

Heb 11:6

[:"red"]"And this IS eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent." [/]John 17:3

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

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Man often draws two erroneous conclusions that cause great damage to the body of Christ. One is that just because I have failed my Master in certain points of conduct, all others have also, or at least things just as salacious.

The other erroneous conclusion is that just because I have failed to meet the goals set out for me by Jesus, all other of His professed followers are failing miserably also; they're just lying about their good conduct as any hypocrite would.

---

Generalizing about everyone from the particularity of oneself can indeed lead to error just as surely as it can sometimes lead to truth. However, I want to make something clear that seems to have been misread from my post (going by what was quoted of it as a preamble to these comments I have quoted above). First, while I have failed Christ in many things, and will readily admit to as much, the things I mentioned were not those particular areas, nor was I attempting to accuse anyone of anything, but rather were observations on a pattern, a theme, that recurs again and again.

Perhaps this partakes of these two mysteries you mentioned. I myself have no solid explanation for why a formula works in one family and fails to work in another -- why the same values, beliefs, and parenting styles can create a successful young man in one family while making a miserable, disturbed young man from another. Certainly it is tempting to take the easy way out and blame the parents -- to imagine that in the unfortunate family the answer is simple: surely the parents must have done something wrong. But I don't buy that.

What I do buy is that patterns that repeat don't lie. They have a story to tell, and that story is indeed that not every mind responds to a one-size-fits-all system of discipline, instruction, guidance, etc. The shame lies not with the individual mind here or there which cannot fit the one-size mold, but rather with all of us whose responsibility it is to recognize this, teach it, emphasize it, and work diligently to help people develop a variety of flexible models and skills that might be tailored to reach those whose minds, characters, and individual needs don't fit neatly into square holes like hewn pegs.

Second, I said nothing to indicate that I judged other Christians to be lying about their good conduct or playing the hypocrite. I accept that my brothers and sisters are imperfect beings -- like myself -- who don't have all the answers in the universe -- like myself -- and I don't have to look very far to find dozens who are better men or women than myself, either. But it is very easy to fall into the trap of keeping up appearances and living up to an image when that is the price one pays for acceptance. And there are people born into this enculturation who like all human beings are hungry for acceptance and a place among their family, community, peer group, etc. This may be the ties of real love or it may be the ties of the pecking-order, but whatever it is, it exerts a strong pull to keep one's problems and burdens out of the sight of others, even (and sometimes especially) those others that might actually be willing to help, because one does not want to burden the very people nice enough to actually care. And also because if one wishes to be generously disposed toward others, and through testing can determine that the flesh is weak where the spirit is willing when it comes to authenticity from another, one might elect to withdraw taking them up on such offers because one does not want to be the solitary destroyer to rob them of hope.

The burdens of the sighted are greater than those of the blind, and from he who wields great power to destroy, greater restraint is required. Selah.

[LifeHiscost]

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Outsiders and non-believers look at us and can see this as plain as the nose on their own faces. In a vast quantity of cases this forms a central reason why they are not among our number.

Please...I'm begging my brothers and sisters in the church and in the faith: please, let's do something about this before it destroys more of us.

---

One of the efforts evident in your post reveals a genuine desire to get the body of believers to act as mature adults, stop behaving in a manner that makes it more difficult for onlookers, both believer and non-believer, to live contented and satisfying lives. There is some evidence in the scripture that seems to actually encourage us to become involved in the lives of other brothers and sisters of the faith, hopefully to motivate to a higher and more noble ideal.

[:"red"]"I solemnly charge you...preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;

but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires;

and will turn away their ears from hearing the truth, and will turn aside to myths." [/]2 Tim 4:1-4

It seems up to each one of us to determine whether God has anointed us to fulfill those specific instructions. Judging from what has happened in the past to the servants of the Lord when accepting that position, we certainly are not kept in the dark about what to expect from those we might be asked to confront.

The most success I've had has been accepting 'seed sowing', as the more profitable, even in helping the disgruntled find hope in something better than actions motivated purely by selfish interests. And since my word is of no more importance than another's, it always seemed more appropriate to allow the Word to speak for itself, giving each the same freedom Jesus gives to me. To accept or to reject, as they feel so moved. I have, for the most part, found just taking care of my own life in moral correctness, as much load as I'm able to bear. And with a great deal more success than trying to manipulate others.

[:"red"]"The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road; and it was trampled under foot, and the birds of the air ate it up.

And other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.

And other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it, and choked it out.

And other seed fell into the good soil, and it grew up,

and produced a crop a hundred times as great.

As He said these things, He would call out,

'He who has ears to hear, let him hear.'" [/]

Luke 8:5-8

Notice how the last sentence gives freedom for people to hear, or not. The verses in the same chapter from 10-15 gives further info for the benefit of those who find Jesus'

words less than easy to understand. Never is there found in the Word of God, lordship of one human being over another, except where those who choose not the Way are a threat to God's plans for His chosen.

As for the difficulty of the task of those who submit to Christ's rule____

[:"red"]"Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls.

For My yoke is easy, and My load is light." [/]

Matt 11;29,30

It is the persons who separate themselves from God who find life difficult.

[:"red"]"Good understanding giveth favor, but the way of the transgressor is hard." [/] Prov 13:15 ASV

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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It seems up to each one of us to determine whether God has anointed us to fulfill those specific instructions. Judging from what has happened in the past to the servants of the Lord when accepting that position, we certainly are not kept in the dark about what to expect from those we might be asked to confront.

The most success I've had has been accepting 'seed sowing', as the more profitable, even in helping the disgruntled find hope in something better than actions motivated purely by selfish interests. And since my word is of no more importance than another's, it always seemed more appropriate to allow the Word to speak for itself, giving each the same freedom Jesus gives to me. To accept or to reject, as they feel so moved. I have, for the most part, found just taking care of my own life in moral correctness, as much load as I'm able to bear. And with a great deal more success than trying to manipulate others.

---

I don't feel that I am anointed by God to go around pointing fingers and telling everyone what's wrong with everything they do, if that's what you mean. Matter of fact, I don't accept that anyone IS anointed by God to do that. There was a time when I was very young and sure of myself and far more sure of my standing with God than I will ever be again, when I felt such a burden for how far the church had fallen from her divinely appointed commission that I could not restrain myself from making a fuss. This I viewed as "upholding the standard" and "blowing the trumpet as a watchman for Zion", etc. but the feedback I received from others taught me that I was mistaken and deluded. That it was I, not they, who was in need of transformation/reformation/whateveration, because I was a judgmental fanatic representing God falsely and without love. Granted, that was not how I experienced things inside myself -- I rather felt like the description given by Sister White: "tears were in His voice as He uttered His scathing rebuke" -- "sighing and crying for the abominations in the midst thereof", etc. -- but who cares what I feel when someone else's perceptions are at stake?? After all, I wasn't in it for me. That was the bottom line. So I had to accept their reality instead of my own, and despair that the "persecution" with which I was met was not to the honor and glory of God at all, nor due to my zeal and faith, but rather due to no greater fact than that I was a horrible person who deserved to be hated and rejected.

Sorry, didn't mean to do an ancient history dump on you.

Back to here and now: I have always felt however, that each one of us has his or her particular experiences for a reason, and that the body as a whole is meant to benefit from the shared transmission of learning and information gleaned from these. I suppose in this I am wrong as well. It would not surprise me. I seem to be wrong about everything these days. Well I sure wish someone would tell me what is right -- what is real, how I'm supposed to see things -- because I clearly do not have a clue. Most days I don't "see" anything -- I don't have any "thoughts" on anything -- I am pure sensorimotor awareness, wailing at being slapped, clinging to being hugged, wondering who's going to trick me next. The only message I seem to hear from people when I have anything to say is "shut up, you don't know what you are talking about, get lost" ... so ... maybe I should.

just.

shut.

up.

permanently.

[Nicodema]

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It is the persons who separate themselves from God who find life difficult.

[:"red"]"Good understanding giveth favor, but the way of the transgressor is hard." [/] Prov 13:15 ASV

---

That's a pretty confusing, "crazymaking" pronouncement to throw at people when, while seeking God earnestly, they still find life difficult. What do you intend such to do with that kind of blanket pronouncement? What conclusions are they to draw?

(a) that there is some secret, hidden way in which they are secretly, without even knowing it themselves, separating them from God, and so they should start tearing themselves to pieces trying to find it?

( that you take them to be lying about seeking God since, because they find life difficult, they clearly must be somehow doing something wrong?

© ??

[_david]

Remember what the topic is please...

... so stay on track

time to make a turn...

[Sylvia]

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[ so ... maybe I should.

just.

shut.

up.

permanently.

---

Hey Seems to me you've had several of us comment on how well spoken you are Cool off, girl The debate isn't worth it

I love you

Hugs in Christ,

Sylvia

p.s. so what if you're wrong? That's a good place to start, isn't it Peter was wrong before he was at his best. Saul was very wrong before he was right (and he still was wrong at times ) Nicodemus was wrong before he was right. etc. etc. etc.

So if there's anything you need to "shut up", perhaps it is the negative self-talk, my friend.

Just a thought