Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted May 19, 2006 Members Share Posted May 19, 2006 Okay, I realize there's a lot of denominations because of various ideas about God and the Bible. But if certain issues are NOT *salvational* issues (whatever *that* means), then why in the world are there so many denominations? I know the question isnt very clear...I can't figure out how to phrase it to ask what I mean... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I guess I'm wondering about beliefs....what makes them a salvational issue and what makes them a non-salvational issue? And if they arent salvational, then why bother with them?? egads...that's about as clear as mud, huh? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted May 19, 2006 Administrators Share Posted May 19, 2006 Like your avatar... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think that one reason might be the evolution of our knowledge of truth, and one reason might be the acceptance of falsehood over time Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 Pam, I think there are so many denominations because people are looking for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If there is error in any part of a belief system, that opens the door to the notion that there might be other falsehoods. If there is a falsehood in a non-salvific issue, isn't there, then, a greater likelihood that a salvific belief might be in error? Just thoughts, Chrys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 My Congregational Church friend describes it as being largely personal preference based From his point of view, there is no significant spiritual difference between any of the main stream denominations, all the way from SDA to Roman Catholic. You join the one that suits your current spiritual walk best. I know this sounds terrible to SDA, who see the doctrinal differences as the difference between The Remnant and Those With The Mark Of The Beast. About the only question his wife had us answer was "is Jesus God and Lord of your life?" - since we said yes, she accepted us as fellow believers regardless of Sabbath/Sunday Pork/NoPork ... /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted May 19, 2006 Author Members Share Posted May 19, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Like your avatar... <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> thanks, Skipper! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> I think there are so many denominations because people are looking for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If there is error in any part of a belief system, that opens the door to the notion that there might be other falsehoods. If there is a falsehood in a non-salvific issue, isn't there, then, a greater likelihood that a salvific belief might be in error? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> hmm. Do you think *anyone* has the whole truth? I'm not sure there's really any way to know whole, complete *spiritual* truth. It seems more abstract and nebulous than scientific certainties that can be measured and proven. I dunno.. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> My Congregational Church friend describes it as being largely personal preference based <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> maybe denominations are like flavors of ice cream - you pick what suits your fancy? []http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/headscratch.gif[/] I guess it just seems to me that unless there's a specific and God-given reason to believe something as necessary for salvation, then why have other nonessential beliefs tacked onto the important *essential* one(s)? The nonessentials seem so divisive. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> But then, what would be the basis for knowing what is *essential*?? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" /> Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockey Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 It also seems like there is a merging of denominations lately, with the development of megachurches i.e. Saddleback, Lakewood etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted May 21, 2006 Moderators Share Posted May 21, 2006 Here are some reasons as I see it. 1. Moral conflict. Henry VIII didn't like the moral stand of the RCC vis-a-vis his womanizing, so he had the English church break away. There is a Mormon off-shoot that persists in polygamy. 2. Rejection of further light. This is probably the most important one. Luther had no intention of starting another denomination. The RCC simply refused to correct the abuses or shed the pagan practices and errors that crept into the church. When others saw more light, the Lutherans refused to go further either, and so those others would start their own churches, who in turn refuse further light. And so it goes on & on. The early Adventists during the advent awakening of the 1840's did not want to leave their churches either. 3. False prophets/misguided people who are so far out that all the established churches reject them and so they have to start their own. 4. Schism over doctrinal issues perceived to be foundational. 5. Nationalism. 6. Economics? As to the question, when does a doctrinal issue become a salvation issue, is more complex, and would make a good discussion subject. However, I believe that anything that affects one's relationship with God is salvational. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 The various denominations are evidence that there is a devil. The devil works hard to prevent us from discovering truth. In Christianity there should be only a handful of denominations. 1. The beleif in the pope results in a distint denomination for Roman Cathoics. 2. The distinct belief in ecclesiastical authority outside the Bible and without the pope results in a distinct denomination for the Orthodox churches. 3. Belief in the Bible as the only rule of faith creates yet another distinct denomination. The fact that we have over 500 denominations is a testimony that the devil is working to delute and prevent people from discovering truth. It is intesting to compare it with other religions. There are five major Jewish sects: Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Hasidism and Kabbalah. There are twelve Islamic sects: Sunnis, Shi'ites, Sufis, Kahrijites, Wahhabis, Ismailis, Zaidis, Fatimids, Nizari, Alawis, Druze and Baha'i. There are four Hindu sects: Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism and Smartism There are many Buddhist sub-sects simular to the many of Christianity. There are three major sects: Theravada ("Way of the Elders"), Mahayana ("Greater Vehicle") and Vajrayana ("Diamond Vehicle"). There are no sects within Confucianism. There are two main sects in Taoism: Zhengyi and Quanzhen. Although like Buddhism, it has many subsects. Buddhism has 360 million followers Christianity has 2 billion followers Confucianism has 5.5 million followers Islam has 1.3 billion followers (Sunni: 940 million) Judaism has 14 million followers Taoism has 20 million followers Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 IMO all belief systems contain error... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 5, 2006 Moderators Share Posted June 5, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> claborn1960 said: IMO all belief systems contain error... <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> [:"blue"]Some have a lot more than others. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 Hi Pam, I've come to understand this as comfort levels in some cases and desire levels in others. Then there are transitional folks. Let's say I am a seeker and have not found God yet. In my heart I desparately want God to guide me into all truth. I read my Bible, pray and study with people. God will not let me be lost in the confusion. Here's a real life story: A guest pastor was on the radio about 3 months ago and giving counsel to callers. A woman calls up and says she's wanting to make a commitment to God with her finances but her live in boy friend is not for that. She wants to honor God in this way and wants to know what to do. Pastor tells her to honor God as God is leading her in this direction and boyfriend will see the light. Mean while I driving down the road thinking, is that it? What about telling that she's living in sin and no matter what she does God will not accept her money until she lives right in regards to adultery. Now if I have a girlfriend that lives with me, I know what I can expect at his church and would gladly go and support his ministry. If I really want change in my life I would say to the girlfriend living in my house, "You have to move out honey, here's some money to stay in a hotel till you can find your own place and then let's talk about marriage." The point is we all have our comfort levels and I believe that this is a large part of the reason for so many denominations. There's more to it than this but I don't have time right now to go on. In short, doctrine or teachings of the Bible reveal the character of God. If one believes in an eternal burning hell fire when they die, for those who reject Christ , they have a certain picture of God and that picture will change them into that which they behold. So we want to be and live a certain way and accept that image of God which allows us to be what we are and refuse to be changed. This is dangerous and a product of Satan the murderer and father of lies. God's true children will not be satisfied with this type of religion asd we are not seeking to satisfy self but to please God and be pleased with God as He truly is. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 5, 2006 Moderators Share Posted June 5, 2006 I believe the Holy Spirit will convict her in due time that she is living in an adulterous relationship. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 5, 2006 Author Members Share Posted June 5, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> So we want to be and live a certain way and accept that image of God which allows us to be what we are and refuse to be changed. This is dangerous and a product of Satan the murderer and father of lies. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> That's very thought provoking. A false image of God used to maintain a personal status quo. Gotta think 'bout this one! Thanks Norman! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 Living with your boyfriend is NOT the same as living in adultery There is no Biblical requirement to have any specific ceremony before you can live with someone Leaving such as relationship is, however, divorce /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 Actually, I think the reason for "so many denominations" is relatively straightforward. On October 31, 1517, Martin Luther nailed the 95 theses to the door of the Wittenburg church. Theses are debating points. I believe this event ignited a debate which has lasted for nearly 500 years, and is nearing its end. The church had been dominant in Europe from about the year 1000, when Harald Bluetooth converted and brought Scandinavia into Christendom. From 1000-1500 had been the great castle and cathedral building era. The church had allowed little else. After Luther, there would be little besides arguing. This debate was necessary, because truth had been lost. But long after the most important truths had been recovered, the argument went on. This debate has resulted in more and more denominations, splitting over sometimes small differences. So the Anglican church split from the Roman church. The Puritans, the Separatists,and eventually the Methodists split from the Anglican churh. Then the Nazarene church split from the Methodists. This progression can be seen in a great many such lines. In the last 40 years or so, non-denominational and independent churches have become dominant in the US. Each church has become "a denomination unto itself." Often because of small disagreements. In a nearby town, three independent churches separated, serially, from an original independent church. Post modern believers claim to be the "Emerging Church," but in reality they are the last gasp of the great argument. They have essentially repudiated the search for truth. Now all truth is personal. This is the ultimat atomization of the church, each person being "a denomination of one." But the rise of so many independent churches, the postmodern "emerging" movement, even those "losing religion" as being discussed on another thread, herald both the final end of the 500 year argument, and the slowly forming new kind of church. And let me say here, that every denomination--including the Roman Catholics--have taken up the 500 year argument. But most of the arguments, and all the young people, are exhausted. In fact, the quickest way to frighten off sincere young believers is with a declaration of "the truth." They don't want to hear about it any more, don't want to argue at all. Because they have been the ultimate victims of all the arguing. Their churches have split, their country's body politic has split, and about half of their homes have split, all because of this urge to argue. They're looking for something else, and the denominations and congregations that begin to offer it will be the beneficiaries of this young generation's devotion. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Bevin, </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Living with your boyfriend is NOT the same as living in adultery <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> ok then fornication would be the issue. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> There is no Biblical requirement to have any specific ceremony before you can live with someone <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> If what you say is true then how does Paul know who is committing fornication and who is truly married? What would set people apart from others just living together? Look at what he says below. In the Bible "giving in marriage" is a public ceremony and it will be happening till Jesus returns. Heb 13:4 Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. To help us see this further Paul also uses the church and Christ so we can understand what a marriage is and how we get married. With Christ we first have a public committment by baptism, then we daily commit ourselves to Him. Likewise in marriage (save the baptism). 2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. There are other texts that I could have posted for you but I wanted to keep this short. Take care and God bless. Norman (Sorry Pam, I got off topic) Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin mccarty Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Consider Isaac and Rebecca mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> In fact, the quickest way to frighten off sincere young believers is with a declaration of "the truth." They don't want to hear about it any more, don't want to argue at all. Because they have been the ultimate victims of all the arguing. Their churches have split, their country's body politic has split, and about half of their homes have split, all because of this urge to argue. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I basically agree with your analysis - but see an extension of it. The urge is not one of arguing, so much as it is a requirement to have "the truth". Those churches that tolerate a wide range of opinions on serious issues - such as evolution v short-age creation - are more Scriptural and more sensible than those that insist on members toeing the party line on a wide range of issues. Look at the incredibly short list of requirements that the Jerusalem believers ended up requiring of the non-Jewish believers. Then look at the actual requirements imposed today by the RC, Episcopalian, SDA, or JW denominations on their adherents. Centuries of arguing and internet access have resulted in a generation that understands just how weak the arguments being presented are, and just how irrelevant they are. They then reject denominations that try to impose weakly supported irrelevant beliefs and behaviors on their members - and instead head towards those that don't major on the minors. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Actually, it's a generational thing. You still want the truth, and are concerned about "weak arguments" Gen-Xers and younger believe only in "personal truth," which makes arguing unnecessary. And for them that is key. For too many of them, their parents argued about the "truth" of who was at fault for splitting the home. Maybe Dad had an affair--that was the truth. But all the kids saw was the arguing, and, in the end, arguing over the truth still split their parents. So they immediately reject arguing, period. They don't care who's right. For them, anyone arguing is wrong. THat's their truth. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 6, 2006 Moderators Share Posted June 6, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Centuries of arguing and internet access <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I know what you meant, but this just tickled my funny bone. You mean Al Gore *didn't* invent the Internet? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Mel, I reviewed the story and do not see that there was no ceremony. What I read reveals that they had the ceremony at Rebekah's before they left. Gifts were given and a meal was had. There was consent by Rebekah and this was not a regular marriage. This was arranged by God, unlike many of the shacking up that takes place today. So if you are suggesting that this is an example that people did not have ceremonies I can't agree with that. Also please don't think that as soon as they saw each other that they ran into Isaac's mother's tent and had sex. It may appear that way but this was not what was done. Gen 24:49 And now if ye will deal kindly and truly with my master, tell me: and if not, tell me; that I may turn to the right hand, or to the left. Gen 24:50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, The thing proceedeth from the LORD: we cannot speak unto thee bad or good. Gen 24:51 Behold, Rebekah is before thee, take her, and go, and let her be thy master's son's wife, as the LORD hath spoken. Gen 24:52 And it came to pass, that, when Abraham's servant heard their words, he worshiped the LORD, bowing himself to the earth. Gen 24:53 And the servant brought forth jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment, and gave them to Rebekah: he gave also to her brother and to her mother precious things. Gen 24:54 And they did eat and drink, he and the men that were with him, and tarried all night; and they rose up in the morning, and he said, Send me away unto my master. Gen 24:55 And her brother and her mother said, Let the damsel abide with us a few days, at the least ten; after that she shall go. Gen 24:56 And he said unto them, Hinder me not, seeing the LORD hath prospered my way; send me away that I may go to my master. Gen 24:57 And they said, We will call the damsel, and inquire at her mouth. Gen 24:58 And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go. Gen 24:59 And they sent away Rebekah their sister, and her nurse, and Abraham's servant, and his men. Gen 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them. Gen 24:61 And Rebekah arose, and her damsels, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man: and the servant took Rebekah, and went his way. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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