La Sierra University Church Now Has a Sabbath School For Homosexuals

[Bravus]

Some of us experience that as progress...

[Gregory Matthews]

I do not want to side-track this discussion began by Bavus.  I consider  it to be of value and I am delighted that    he has begun it.  But, I will make a  couple of comments,  that that  may not be related to each other.

The SDA denomination has published on  this issue,, for informational purposes, I will cite a couple of those publications.

Ronald M. Springett, Homosexuality in History and the Scriptures, was probably the first major publication.  It was authored by a conservative professor in the Religion Department of Southern.  From this perspective   it can not be considered to be a liberal publication.  It was first published about 1980 (I have not checked.) and was 164 pages in length.  Its 1999 edition was 183 pages in length.  It was groundbreaking in part due to the fact that Springett argued that  several of the Biblical verses commonly used against homosexuality were improperly used.  To be clear, he supported the common usage of other Biblical verses.  I will say that this is important. If someone argues that a specific verse should not be used as it has been used in the past, that does not mean that  one is taking an overall position on homosexuality.   In addition, I believe that this book is of value in that it alerted me to the fact that  the    meaning of the word “homosexual” is defined differently by people who use the word.  This is important in that sometimes in our conversations we simply are talking over the head of the other and the communication is not based upon a common understanding.

In 2012 Andrews University published a the 578 page book: Homosexuality, Marriage, and the Church:  Biblical, Counseling and Religious Liberty Issues.  It has about 17 different authors.  While I do not consider everything to be of value,  It has much of value.  This includes how we treat people and that homosexuals are God’s children and loved by  God.  It addresses a large number of issues.

As a personal statement:  I do not believe that homosexuality is a choice.  I did not chose to be a heterosexual.  I do not believe that one choses to be a homosexual.   I am firmly committed to this position.  In my understanding, homosexuality is not defined by activity.  Rather, it is defined by gender preference.  So in my understanding, a celibate homosexual remains a homosexual.

Now back to looking at the Biblical verses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The following image includes a published review in 1990 that I wrote of the Springett book.

After you click on the link, you may need to rotate the image.

CCF04192019.pdf

[Gregory Matthews]

Your computer should be able to rotate the image.

Once you have an image  in view, click on "view" on your computer,  then click on "rotate image," until it is correct on your computer.

 

[B/W Photodude]

The original point of this thread was that of the church setting up of a Sabbath school for gays and in such a way as to be affirming. This coupled with the general impression gaining ground that by "being born it is acceptable to engage in gay activites," should lead one to have serious concerns for our church.

Assimilation is a law of human nature. Satan works with untiring perseverance to use this law, ordained by God to be a power for good, to forward his plans. He seeks to blend together righteous and unrighteous principles in order that through this union sin may lose its offensive appearance. 

The righteous should associate with the wicked only to restore the principles of truth which have been almost obliterated. He who seeks to help and bless others must depend wholly upon the unseen yet all-essential supply of grace and strength.

Christ saw Satan patterning after heaven by the use of human association, thus extending the contagion of evil, and He determined to make His church a resisting element.

Untold good may be accomplished by the righteous working with and for the wicked; but too often those who ought to lead sinners to God do not draw with Christ.... Church members are under a solemn pledge to form characters different in every way from the characters of worldlings. If a change does not take place in them prior to their union with the church, there is danger that, though they have joined the church, they will assimilate with worldlings. —Manuscript 27a, April 19, 1900, “God's Purpose for His People.”

The last sentence is why a change in behaviors and characters should occur before membership and leadership is extended to those who have engaged in a wide variety of lifestyles including homosexuality.

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Very well-placed quote BW!

I find I usually do not have to go looking for quotes.  Ellot Waggoner was talking about this and he said not to study the Bible topically. I suspicion that looking for quotes is similar to topical Bible study.

Usually they come in whatever I was going to be reading that day. Almost like I was going down the highway to the store to buy something and sitting right by the road all wrapped up was what I wanted to buy. Still trying to figure that out. This has been going on for a long time, but most of the time I don't post them. Of course, not all  of them are related to this forum.

[Gustave]

Here is what my Church Officially says about homosexuality. 

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,¹⁴¹ tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."¹⁴² They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

So, as I understand this a homosexual has as much right as anyone to claim the merits of Christ & do their best to live according to the Christian Faith. It's the homosexual ACTS, that under no circumstances, can be approved. 

To say it another way a homosexual is to refrain from homosexual acts LIKE A HETROSEXUAL is to refrain from sexual acts outside of marriage. The caveat here is that there isn't a mechanism to justify or validate homosexual acts because EVEN IF a homosexual marries another homosexual the sex acts are disordered  and contrary to the natural law. 

As one guilty of violating #2253 & #2254 I can appreciate how difficult this "sentence" would be for a gay person who has genuine same sex attraction because unlike heterosexuals - - marriage does not make the homosexual sex acts complaint with Christianity. This is a tough deal for queers and easy for us heterosexuals to  waltz off into the sunset with our spouses not even attempting to quantify how this feels for gays. 

I've had the privilege to work around many gay people and several of them told me they realized they were gay at a very early age and wanted more than anything to not be - I especially feel sorry for these folks. Jesus died for them as much as He did for me and at the end of the day perhaps Jesus will forgive them for momentary failures like I think and hope He has forgiven me for mine.

I didn't want anyone to think I hate queers or anything like that because I don't.  LGBTQQ has been around since humans started walking the planet and they are here to stay - it's just that with the internet and modern tech they have more of a voice than they used to and are more brave in showing themselves out in the open. I believe that there is a good and bad part to this. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The majority of SDAs would agree with the position that Gustave has stated.  They would probably disagree with the idea that in a heterosexual relationship sexual intercourse should only take place in a context in which life could result.  SDAs generally allow for birth control that  is not allowed by Roman Catholics.  In addition, SDAs would be willing to say that homosexual relationships can occur in a relationship that has affection.

Catholics and the majority of SDAs agree that the homosexual condition, even if a result of sin, is not sinful itself.  Rather, it is the homosexual activity that is sinful.  

Yes, these majority positions of the SDA denomination are being challenged today by some.

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

 In addition, SDAs would be willing to say that homosexual relationships can occur in a relationship that has affection.

Catholics and the majority of SDAs agree that the homosexual condition, even if a result of sin, is not sinful itself.  Rather, it is the homosexual activity that is sinful.  

Yes, these majority positions of the SDA denomination are being challenged today by some.

I would really disagree with you here. In the near-sighted view of many in the NAD and of the progressive wing of the church might take that view, but the church is a world wide church and I hardly believe that "homosexual relationships can occur in a relationship that has affection" is part of the whole world wide church belief system. It has been said that in the end times the world would be much like Sodom and Gomorrah. I never dreamed that in certain places the church would also have the mind of Sodom.

While the homosexual condition is a result of sin and should be considered a character flaw, the promise of God is that characters will be repaired even in this life time. Paul speak of doing a work in us before Jesus returns. While the flaw of homosexuality and other perversions can be repaired, that does not necessarily mean people will become "straight." Paul even invited people to not become involved in any relationships.

Paul also spoke convincingly, at least to me, of waiting for Jesus to be reproduced in us. "Have the mind of Christ" and "put on Jesus." If that is done, there will be no room for homosexuality and other perversions. Having the love of God will also lead one to care enough for others to not allow themselves to lead another person into sin and eternal loss.

I realize that many do not believe that people will be changed before Jesus comes, but I do not understand why. It is really so simple that even a caveman should be able to understand it.

[Gregory Matthews]

The Wanderer asked in the quote below:

Please note that I did not say that there was an official position.

Rather, I said in part:  ". . . the majority of SDAs agree that the homosexual condition, even if a result of sin, is not sinful itself.  Rather, it is the homosexual activity that is sinful."  There is a wealth of material available that supports what I said.  If I were to attempt to cite this large amount of material, I would take far more space that I can  take in this forum.   You may not agree with my statement.  But, you surely are aware that I am correct.

So, I will only cite one statement, by a member of this  forum, Inge Anderson, who, if you are aware, is a recognized SDA authority in this matter:  "It is crucial for homosexually oriented persons to understand that having a homosexual orientation does not make them guilty of any sin. It is literally a life-and death matter that we distinguish between a homosexual orientation and homosexual sexual activity."    As printed in:  Inge Anderson.  "Good News for Adventists attracted  to their Own Sex."  Homosexuality, Marriage, and the Church: Biblical, Counseling and Religious Liberty Issues.   Andrews  University Press, 2012, page 446.

In asking your question, your should probably tell us what you mean by an "official Adventist position in writing."  If you mean as voted   by a GC Session, no  such a subject has never come to a vote.

Quote

Is there an official Adventist position in writing about this somewhere?

[Gregory Matthews]

SDAs have different understandings of what is mean by "an official SDA position."    In fact, I use that phrase in more than one way.

I did not understand what you meant by your use of that phrase,  so I asked you to clarify and help me to better understand.  That is not being judgmental.  It is simply my attempt to better understand you, so that I could be more accurate in my response.

If you are not willing to help me to better understand what you are asking,  I guess that either I should not respond to your questions, you should not ask them.

The bottom line is that your question was not and continues to not be clear to me.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Photodude previously mentioned Ellet Waggoner:  Ellet J. Waggoner and Alonzo T. Jones were major figures at that 1888 General Conference and played a major role in SDA theology during that period of time.  On the positive side, they helped the developing SDA Church to better understand Righteous by Faith.  However, not everything that they proposed has been accepted today.

[phkrause]

Here's something that I found on this issue:

https://family.adventist.org/seventh-day-adventist-position-statement-on-homosexuality/

here's another one:

http://drpipim.org/homosexuality-contemporaryissues-47/38-the-official-seventh-day-adventist-position-on-homosexuality.html

another:

https://searchlight.vc/searchlight/our-readers-opinions/2018/09/11/the-seventh-day-adventist-church-position-on-homosexuality/

one more:

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/official-statements/statements/article/go/-/same-sex-unions/

There are more, but it seems most are pretty much the same!!

[Bravus]

Here's a thought: if the official SDA position is anti-human, it's wrong.

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, Bravus said:

Here's a thought: if the official SDA position is anti-human, it's wrong.

Here's another thought: it will be even more wrong if it is ungodly.

[Bravus]

You may be crossing your wires as to threads: prior to that one sentence post, there were 17 posts from other people since my last one sentence post in this thread.

I've already abandoned the other thread, since it's clear no-one is interested in actively engaging on topic. A litany of poorly-founded homophobia is not a discussion.

Nothing I have posted is anti-Adventist. There is an 'if' in my most recent post. 

[Bravus]

I'm a straight man, married to the same woman for over 31 years. I'm not anti-hetero, that's a bizarre suggestion.

I'm pro-human. All human beings, regardless of colour, creed, gender, sexuality, orientation or politics are inherently valuable.

I will resist people who try to diminish the value of other human beings. I do not do so by diminishing the value of those people, I do it by challenging their ideas.

You will note I have called ideas homophobic, not people. 

I am not trading in insults. I am accurately describing ideas. If you cannot see that the exaggerated claims about the threats posed by homosexual people toward children are examples of fear of homosexual people... then perhaps you need to think on what you understand 'homophobia' to mean.

[Gregory Matthews]

The following quote is an example of a post that does not make a contribution to the discussion.  It probably shuts down discussion by people other than the one to which it was intended, as few people would appreciate such said about them.

 

This is a litany of Hetero-phobic insults. I wonder how many brownie points you gave yourself for this?

[Daryl]

It seems that they also have another class:

Journey

Ministry Center (education wing)

Currently discussing the book Outside the Lines: How Embracing Queerness Will Transform Your Faith by Mihee Kim-Kort.

[Bravus]

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

This has nothing to do with me; I never commented once on this.

And my comment was not about you.

I'll bow out here.

[B/W Photodude]

18 hours ago, Bravus said:

I'm a straight man, married to the same woman for over 31 years.

Lots of women found that their "straight" husbands had given them HIV in the early days of the AIDS epidemic!

18 hours ago, Bravus said:

All human beings, regardless of colour, creed, gender, sexuality, orientation or politics are inherently valuable.

That is why God calls it a strange act when He speaks of the final destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire. And their "inherent value" will not save them. 

18 hours ago, Bravus said:

I will resist people who try to diminish the value of other human beings. I do not do so by diminishing the value of those people, I do it by challenging their ideas.

Your ideas are part of who you are. Trashing someone's ideas is the same as trashing them.

18 hours ago, Bravus said:

You will note I have called ideas homophobic, not people. 

Homophobic is such a disgusting term. It was primarily invented to shame people into cooperating with evil. The vast majority of people who would qualify for the term "homophobic" are not afraid of gay people, but they are disgusted by their behavior. Even some men who are attracted to other men are disgusted by the activities of the larger gay community.

[B/W Photodude]

3 hours ago, Daryl said:

It seems that they also have another class:

Journey

Currently discussing the book Outside the Lines: How Embracing Queerness Will Transform Your Faith by Mihee Kim-Kort.

Let's see. A lesbian pastor from another denomination writes a book promoting homosexuality and it is now being studied in a SDA church, which has a lead pastor who is female. What could go wrong with that?

 Ye have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment? Malachi 2:17

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 How fast a large part of the church is descending into the condition of Sodom!
 
 

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, Daryl said:

It seems that they also have another class:

Journey

Ministry Center (education wing)

Currently discussing the book Outside the Lines: How Embracing Queerness Will Transform Your Faith by Mihee Kim-Kort.

 

I might accept gayness as part of who people are, but I won't ever embrace it or celebrate it.  I'm not wired that way.  If LGBTQT+ folks are seeking a relationship with God, they are welcome to worship at my church; but please don't openly display your "gayness" at church, and please don't ask us to have a wedding for you.

[Bravus]

See, insinuating that I might be gay seems like an insult to you, because you consider gay people to be lesser human beings. I'm not gay, and I don't need to convince anyone of that, but it is not insulting to me, any more than someone suggesting I was secretly a Jesuit, or a black person 'passing', or... I mean, it's factually wrong, and adds nothing, but it simply compares one human with another, for those of us who consider all human beings to be fully human.

[Gregory Matthews]

The idea that some seem to be making that a SDA Sabbath School class study of a book said to promote homosexuality (whether correct or incorrect) is simply an assumption that  may be wrong.

While living in Colorado, for many years my wife and I were members of a SS Class that discussed various issues and books.  We had people representing various religions, Christian, Jewish and even pagan discussing with us what their religion taught.  We did not do this because we wanted to promote that   group, and potentially understand better how to relate to them.

We discussed books that included books published  within Adventism, because we wanted to better understand the issues that those books raised within the context of SDA and Biblical teachings.

On occasion, we would take the Sabbath day off, so to speak and spend the day attempting to understand the strata of geologic formations in the Colorado area.

Pundits may argue that he SDA class in question is attempting to promote homosexuality.  However, the lack of evidence provided and the failure of any to state that they have actually attended the class leads to  that their claim is simply a pre-conceived assumption and does not have supporting evidence.

Further, it may take time to develop evidence and for the appropriate people to act.  I am reminded of a SS class  that did promote ideas outside of Adventism.     I know, because I attended that class.  Eventually denominational authorities were able to put a stop to it.  But, it took time and more time than some people were willing to give.