Who's fooling who?

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH, your tell us that you are open to our proving from the Bible that you are wrong.

As I think of this, I think of a 5 YO child who might come to his Father and say:  Daddy, the moon is  made of blue cheese and I just ate a piece of blue cheese.

In response to what the Father might say, the child might say:  But, Daddy, I just ate a piece of blue cheese.  That proves that what I said is correct.

 

 

[JoeMo]

Concerning the 3 Angel's Message - where does it say in that message that we are to worship the God who created heaven and earth on Sabbath?  Frankly, I think we should worship the Lord every day.  End-time controversy will be much larger than Saturday vs. Sunday.  It will be whether or not one accepts the Beast's authority or remains faithful to the authority of the Creator.  If one accepts the mark of the Beast so they can feed their families; yet discretely keeps the Sabbath, are they saved?  If one "worships" the Beast outwardly, but says in His heart "God, I still submit to You; I'm only doing this to preserve my life and that of my family - I'm sure you understand", if that person saved?  Will the RCC and papacy be involved? Maybe.  Will Islam be involved? Maybe.  Will the "deep state" be involved? Maybe. Will the world-wide web be involved? Maybe.  No matter what the scenario or when it happens , should we be spiritually ready for Jesus to come? Absolutely!

[hch]

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I think we should worship the Lord every day.

We should worship God every day. In the beginning, He blessed every day. But there is only one day that He sanctified or set apart for holy use. It was in today's Sabbath School lesson.

It is like taking a train ride. The train leaves every day from your city at 9  AM and returns at noon. You have a free ticket to take the train every Saturday, but it is only free on Saturday. You can take the train any day and every day, but you can only use the free ticket on Saturday.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. His custom was to go to church on Sabbath and Isaiah says that in the New Earth, we will meet on Sabbath. So why would anyone want to go to church on a day that Jesus is not there? Some pick Friday some pick Sunday, but Jesus is there on Saturday. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and of Sabbath keepers.

What it really boils down to is obedience. We have enough evidence to know that Jesus is going to meet with us on the day that He sanctified (He is Lord of the Sabbath) and we can meet with Him when He is there or we can choose a day when He is not there.

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

If one accepts the mark of the Beast so they can feed their families; yet discretely keeps the Sabbath, are they saved? 

Revelation 14 says no (study it). As it was in Noah's day some folks probably believed Noah's message, but did not get into the ark. They were lost in spite of their belief. When Moses raised the serpent on the pole in the wilderness; only those who looked lived. Those who believed that God would save them, but who refused to look ...died!

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Will the RCC and papacy be involved?

Apostate Protestantism is the last power to wage war against God's people.

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Will Islam be involved?

Islam does not teach salvation through Christ. They teach salvation independent from Christ. They will be involved as will all apostate religions: Jews, RC, Islam, evolutionists, Buddhists, secularists, etc. 

 

[JoeMo]

hch,

I appreciate the clarity of your answers to my questions in your post above.  I also generally agree with them.

[8thdaypriest]

    1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”

Acts 4:12 [Peter speaking] “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

    John 3:17-18 [Jesus speaking] “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Choosing to rest on the 7th day is part of acknowledging Jesus as God's Son, as Creator, as our King, as Lord of the Sabbath. 

When Jesus was raised from death by His Father, He was STILL "Lord of the Sabbath".  That didn't change. 

Let me just say here, that millions have lived and still live today, who have not heard the truth of Jesus and His death for us.  I believe they must be given the opportunity to make an informed choice - to believe and serve God and His Son, or to refuse.  I do not believe our Savior will leave them behind, as if they never existed.  He died for them.  This is why I believe that the 8th millennium will be for those who were not able to make that informed choice (for whatever reason - immaturity/disability/circumstances).  They will be "the rest of the dead". 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 7/20/2019 at 9:43 AM, JoeMo said:

Concerning the 3 Angel's Message - where does it say in that message that we are to worship the God who created heaven and earth on Sabbath?  Frankly, I think we should worship the Lord every day.  End-time controversy will be much larger than Saturday vs. Sunday.  It will be whether or not one accepts the Beast's authority or remains faithful to the authority of the Creator.  If one accepts the mark of the Beast so they can feed their families; yet discretely keeps the Sabbath, are they saved?  If one "worships" the Beast outwardly, but says in His heart "God, I still submit to You; I'm only doing this to preserve my life and that of my family - I'm sure you understand", if that person saved?  Will the RCC and papacy be involved? Maybe.  Will Islam be involved? Maybe.  Will the "deep state" be involved? Maybe. Will the world-wide web be involved? Maybe.  No matter what the scenario or when it happens , should we be spiritually ready for Jesus to come? Absolutely!

Let's do another example, set back in the days of Roman persecution of early Christians. 

Let's say the Romans demanded a man bow down and worship Zeus or Diana or the Emperor, or another of the Roman/Greek gods.  They threaten death or severe pain if the man refuses, and slavery for his family.  If the man - in his mind - prays to the LORD for forgiveness, while he bows to the Roman god, will he be "saved" ? 

We can't really know - can we?  The use of force - real persecution, changes the whole equation.  

Peter denied Christ and then ran away, because he was afraid.  Was he forgiven?  Yes! 

I do believe those who stand firm in faith, and suffer for Christ will be rewarded in a special way.  Doesn't mean that folks who were "weak in faith" won't be there.  It's not all or nothing.   We are all at various stages of growth.  

The folks outside of the Ark were not threatened with painful death for getting aboard.  So far as we know, ridicule was the only "force" used.  I realize that loss of social acceptance is a powerful motivator for some folks, but I doubt the LORD has it very high up on His "extenuating circumstances" list. 

 

[hch]

12 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Acts 4:12 [Peter speaking] “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Bringing Peter into the conversation is a great example of GRACE and MERCY. It reminds me of the purpose of the endtime warnings in the Third Angel's Message.

People may think that I focus too much on "fearful warnings"

Quote

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Revelation 14 :9-10)

But the example of Peter reminds me of Christ's intention for Peter to have victory:

Quote

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:  But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. (Luke 22:31-32)

During the final conflict, Christ's repeated invitation to Peter was to pray with Him for "one hour".  It fell on the ears of a sleeping disciple. Though Jesus came to him 3 times and encouraged him to "watch and pray" Peter failed to stay awake. He slept when it was most critical that he watch and pray. The consequences was that he failed when the test came upon him. And in mercy, Jesus forgave him.

We too are getting a "final warning" to "watch and pray". With our warning, we see prophecy being fulfilled (but not all GM, who is on record with his discouraging words).

But there is a  major difference between those of us who live in the endtime and Peter. Peter had Jesus to intercede for him after he failed. If we fail to watch and pray at the time when Christ leaves the Most Holy place in the Heavenly Sanctuary, we will not have an advocate to intercede for our forgiveness. 

That is why it is so important to watch and pray that our faith fail not. To be sustained by Christ's keeping power is NEEDED NOW rather than to be restored by His forgiving power later as in Peter's situation because that cannot happen when Christ is no longer ministering in Heaven's Most Holy Place. 

Quote

Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages (Isaiah 49:8)

 

[Gregory Matthews]

In the quote below, HCH has introduced a thought, that carried to its logical conclusion, is rejected by the majority of Seventh-day Adventists today.

It is not my intention to get into a point by point discussion with HCH as to what he said below.  Rather I simply think it appropriate to inform those reading  this thread that this  is just an additional point in the body of material that HCH has posted that is rejected by the majority of SDAs today.

 

Quote

But there is a  major difference between those of us who live in the endtime and Peter. Peter had Jesus to intercede for him after he failed. If we fail to watch and pray at the time when Christ leaves the Most Holy place in the Heavenly Sanctuary, we will not have an advocate to intercede for our forgiveness. 

[Gregory Matthews]

NOTE:  There is no time, in this human life, prior to the 2nd Advent when any human can stand on their own merit outside of the salvation provided by Christ.  Period.  End of discussion.  

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, hch said:

But there is a  major difference between those of us who live in the endtime and Peter. Peter had Jesus to intercede for him after he failed. If we fail to watch and pray at the time when Christ leaves the Most Holy place in the Heavenly Sanctuary, we will not have an advocate to intercede for our forgiveness. 

This is pure legalistic heresy.  No one could EVER be saved in the past, present, or future without having Christ as an Advocate.

[stinsonmarri]

On 7/20/2019 at 10:43 AM, JoeMo said:

Concerning the 3 Angel's Message - where does it say in that message that we are to worship the God who created heaven and earth on Sabbath?  Frankly, I think we should worship the Lord every day.  End-time controversy will be much larger than Saturday vs. Sunday.  It will be whether or not one accepts the Beast's authority or remains faithful to the authority of the Creator.  If one accepts the mark of the Beast so they can feed their families; yet discretely keeps the Sabbath, are they saved?  If one "worships" the Beast outwardly, but says in His heart "God, I still submit to You; I'm only doing this to preserve my life and that of my family - I'm sure you understand", if that person saved?  Will the RCC and papacy be involved? Maybe.  Will Islam be involved? Maybe.  Will the "deep state" be involved? Maybe. Will the world-wide web be involved? Maybe.  No matter what the scenario or when it happens , should we be spiritually ready for Jesus to come? Absolutely!

Joe: In Revelation, it clearly states that the remnant will keep all of YAHWEH THE FATHER'S Commandments and have the Testimony of YAHSHUA. It does not specify just the Sabbath. I love someone to show me that it states that. Secondly, in Revelation Chapter 14, the whole chapter is actually dealing with the 144,000. I do not understand why we can not see they are receiving their reward for the work they have done. Then the Chapter shows what they did and if you notice Verse 12 states clearly about the patience of the saints and again those who keep the Commandments of THE MOST HIGH! I see nothing at all about the Sabbath vs. Sunday nor is their persecution. Chapter 11 speaks about the Two Witness which has been identified as the Bible or Gospel. Well, the remnant will have the Gospel and will have the power to shut down the rain and other powers. So I ask anyone if they have this power how is there going to be any persecution.

You and I both agree that the beast and the whore are two different foes. Chapter 17 speaks early about the whore and then the angel showed the mystery of both the whore and the beast. The rest of the chapter is mainly on the beast and how he gains power and the now the 10 kings he makes along with him hate the whore and it is the fulfillment of YAHWEH!

Chapter 18 deals with a city and specified the city in Rev 11:8 stating the Great City! This great city is where YAHSHUA was crucified so that would be Jerusalem. Rev 17:18 states again the great city or Jerusalem. Then Chapter 18 tells what will happen to Jerusalem. It will be the habitation of uncage unclean and hateful birds! This chapter calls the whore's daughters unclean and hateful birds! But look at the description of the city being destroyed. This is the city that killed the prophets and apostles, what great clue that this is Jerusalem. Paul before becoming converted killed the saints! It is also called the great city and it is being destroyed and an angel finishes the city destruction by using a milestone and casting it into the sea. The proof that the beast and the papacy will war for dominance is Rev 16:13, 14 is exactly like Rev 18:2 and Rev 16:16 is the battle between the two that will be Armageddon!

So according to Revelation, the Sabbath is included in the Commandments and nowhere does it show that the remnant will be persecuted. The word "tsârâh:"

Strong's Concordance: tsarah: straits, distress

NAS Exhaustive Concordance-Word Origin: fem. of tsar-Definition: straits, distress

I would love if someone can show me the Sabbath and persecution in Daniel Chapter 12 or Revelation and I stand and accept it. Please, no hidden agenda is must be plain and clear! 

My faith will always be SDA but according to the original description, the pioneers wrote and believed!

Blessings!

[hch]

On 7/22/2019 at 8:35 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

NOTE:  There is no time, in this human life, prior to the 2nd Advent when any human can stand on their own merit outside of the salvation provided by Christ.  Period.  End of discussion.  

Gregory, It is evident that still do not understand what you are talking about. You continue to spin rubbish that is contrary to the points that I am making though they are the very waymarks that are so clear in the Bible and Spirt  of prophecy. Then to assert that Adventists not longer believe Present Truth that has been established by the word of God. Truth that will stand though the heavens  fall. Many will fall away!

Quote

And when the truth calls for working men and women, when sacrifices have to be made for the truth's sake, they are somewhere else; and when trials and persecution come, they fall away because they have no depth of earth. The truth, plain, pointed, and close, is brought to bear upon the heart and reveals the deformity of character. Some will not bear this test, but frequently close their eyes to their imperfections; although their consciences tell them that the words spoken by the messengers of God, which bear so closely upon their Christian characters, are truth, yet they will not listen to the voice. They are offended because of the word and yield the truth rather than submit to be sanctified through it. They flatter themselves that they may get to heaven an easier way.  {3T 112.1}   

 

Quote

Jesus is in His holy temple and will now accept our sacrifices, our prayers, and our confessions of faults and sins and will pardon all the transgressions of Israel, that they may be blotted out before He leaves the sanctuary. When Jesus leaves the sanctuary, then they who are holy and righteous will be holy and righteous still; for all their sins will then be blotted out, and they will be sealed with the seal of the living God. But those that are unjust and filthy will be unjust and filthy still; for then there will be no Priest in the sanctuary to offer their sacrifices, their confessions, and their prayers before the Father's throne. Therefore what is done to rescue souls from the coming storm of wrath must be done before Jesus leaves the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary.  {EW 48.1} 

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 7/22/2019 at 7:06 PM, hch said:

Gregory, It is evident that still do not understand what you are talking about. You continue to spin rubbish that is contrary to the points that I am making though they are the very waymarks that are so clear in the Bible and Spirt  of prophecy. Then to assert that Adventists not longer believe Present Truth that has been established by the word of God. Truth that will stand though the heavens  fall. Many will fall away!

HCH: It truly grieves me how disrespectful you write. Again, I want to make it very clear that Pastor Matthew and I see things differently. But when I write to him, I tried to be respectful. First he is the moderator, secondly, I respect his position and his degree. I feel that he truly believes and is sincere in his belief. We do understand each other even in our disagreement. I will not say I am happy with some of our disagreement, but that does not give me the right to disrespect him. What he wrote is this:

NOTE:  There is no time, in this human life, prior to the 2nd Advent when any human can stand on their own merit outside of the salvation provided by Christ.  Period.  End of discussion.  

All of the quotes you provided by EGW actually states the same thing. The saints of THE MOST will stand on their own merits. My understanding of this is we have the power of choice which is outside the salvation provide by YAHSHUA. We must choose to be saved and then salvation is free and then given to us by our minds changing. Each every one of us has to choose to let this mind be in each one of us which in YAHSHUA through THE HOLY SPIRIT who will seal us. Just like the Adam's on their own merit chose to sin, we must choose to accept the truth! We must choose to become a living sacrifice ourselves. You do not understand that we have power and that power is choice! We are not robots and YAHSHUA automatically covers us, we must make the decision to be cover.

Your problem is when someone disagrees with you then your pride takes over. You then say some unkind words: "You continue to spin rubbish that is contrary to the points that I am making though they are the very waymarks that are so clear in the Bible and Spirit  of prophecy." To be honest, who are you or anyone to say what someone comment is rubbish. Even though I do not agree with you, I try to respect you. But you do not do the same, either your way or no way. You are even allowed a part of this forum site to voice your views. Yet, you do not show humbleness and kindness for the Moderator who is to supervise YOUR forum comments. Please stop! Let's us all pray and agree with love and kindness, most of all humbleness through THE POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT to disagree!

Thank You with Love and Blessings!

[JoeMo]

6 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

To be honest, who are you or anyone to say what someone comment is rubbish. Even though I do not agree with you, I try to respect you.

Amen, Marri!

7 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

The saints of THE MOST will stand on their own merits.

This part I must disagree with.  I am absolutely positive that it is the merit of Jesus Christ alone - none of my own - that will gain me eternal life.  Our robes are washed white by the blood of the Lamb.  We overcome by the blood of the Lamb.  Even if I overcame every known sin (which I haven't), my own righteousness would look like filthy rags to my God.  It is only when the Father sees the perfect righteousness of Christ covering my filthy rags that I will be deemed worthy of the undeserved gift of eternal life in the Kingdom.

I do agree that - after we have been changed at the Second Coming - we will probably have to stand on our own righteousness.  But we will no longer have a genetic inclination towards sin and rebellion, like we have now.

[Gregory Matthews]

JoMo:  In light of the above statement you have made in response to a previous post by Stinsonmarri I have reviewed her post and your response. I am confused as to exactly what Stinsonmarri said in her post.  It looks to me like she may have made a type of a typo that I sometimes make in which I fail state my thinking in a clear manner.  In brief, the manner in which Stinsonmarri made her statement leaves me unsure as to exactly what she believes on the point on which you comment.  IOW, I am not certain that your statement of disagreement is actually her position.   Perhaps it is.   Perhaps it is not, as I do not fully understand her comment.

[JoeMo]

I have high respect for Marri.  It is not important to me that we agree on everything.  IMHO, she is a sincere and educated believer.  I can empathize with those who think we must be sinless at the Second Coming.  I believed that myself for several years.  Recent experience has taught me that relying on Jesus to overcome rather than my own strength of will is much more successful.  His grace enables me to do good.  My so-called good does not enable Him to give me grace.  Grace is undeserved merit.  I don't deserve it.  Thank God for His love, mercy, and forgiveness!

[hch]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I have high respect for Marri.  It is not important to me that we agree on everything.  IMHO, she is a sincere and educated believer.  I can empathize with those who think we must be sinless at the Second Coming.  I believed that myself for several years.  Recent experience has taught me that relying on Jesus to overcome rather than my own strength of will is much more successful.  His grace enables me to do good.  My so-called good does not enable Him to give me grace.  Grace is undeserved merit.  I don't deserve it.  Thank God for His love, mercy, and forgiveness!

JoeMo,

You sound like me. Rely on Christ's keeping power.

When we arrive at the time when He is not present to make atonement for us, His power to keep us from sinning is essential.

[JoeMo]

23 minutes ago, hch said:

we arrive at the time when He is not present to make atonement for us, His power to keep us from sinning is essential.

Where we disagree is when that will occur.  From my understanding, your view is that this will happen before Christ's second Coming, while we are still in this sinful flesh.  My view is that this happens at Christ's Second Coming, when this corruptible flesh is made in corruptible.  Until we are translated, His grace and forgiveness will always be available to those who believe and trust in Him.  Jesus and the Father are looking for reasons to save us; not destroy us.  He loves us unconditionally.  That being said, Jesus won't drag us into the Kingdom kicking and screaming if we choose not to be there.

Were all 8 people on the ark sinless for the entire week after the door to the ark was shut?  I have a hard time believing that.  Only Noah was declared perfect in his generation.  Nothing said about the other 7.  If probation was "over" for the antediluvians, why wouldn't someone the ark who sinned be kicked off the boat? 

[hch]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Where we disagree is when that will occur.

My understanding is this: Jesus pleads for us in the Most Holy until He declares "It is done." He throws down His censor, changes His robes, and comes for His saints. There might be a span of 7 days from His leaving Heaven until He arrives to the earth for His saints.

[stinsonmarri]

18 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Amen, Marri!

This part I must disagree with.  I am absolutely positive that it is the merit of Jesus Christ alone - none of my own - that will gain me eternal life.  Our robes are washed white by the blood of the Lamb.  We overcome by the blood of the Lamb.  Even if I overcame every known sin (which I haven't), my own righteousness would look like filthy rags to my God.  It is only when the Father sees the perfect righteousness of Christ covering my filthy rags that I will be deemed worthy of the undeserved gift of eternal life in the Kingdom.

I do agree that - after we have been changed at the Second Coming - we will probably have to stand on our own righteousness.  But we will no longer have a genetic inclination towards sin and rebellion, like we have now.

Joe: Let me explain, first I said: "My understanding of this is we have the power of choice which is outside the salvation provide by YAHSHUA." I want to let all know that I present and each and everyone of you have a right to agree or disagree with me, that's choice! I also want to delve a little deeper in why I make this claim. I take a stand that salvation is also a merit but allow for one moment what merit means:

Merit (v.): late 15c. (Caxton), "to be entitled to, be or become deserving of, earn a right or incur a liability," from Middle French meriter (Modern French mériter), from merite (n.), or directly from Latin meritare "to earn, yield," frequentative of merere, mereri "to earn (money);" also "to earn pay as a soldier" (see merit (n.)). Etymology Dictionary

You know I am a person who like to break down words to their original meaning. This assist us in better understanding the presentation. 

The adjective entitled means you have a legal right to something. How do we become entitled?

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:15 

For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon YAHWEH, they shall inherit the earth. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. For such as be blessed of HIM shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of HIM shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever. Psa 37:9, 11, 22, 29

And he said, A certain man had two sons:  And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!  I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against Heaven, and before thee,  And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.  And he arose and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.   And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against Heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.  But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:  And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:  For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Luke 15:11-24 

Over and over in the Bible, it states clearly that we earthly flesh are sons and daughters of THE MOST HIGH. HIS SON did HIS WILL by creating us in THEIR IMAGE and LIKENESS! Our first created parents original had Righteousness, they also inherited the earth, they were Commanded to take care of it. Righteousness was giving to us by THE ALMIGHTY ONES and they lost it. They were told not to eat from a specific tree and if they did they would die! They had to make the choice to obey and live forever or to disobey and die. They choose the latter which they were entitled to do. They were entitled to love THE ALMIGHTY ONES,  but they chose not to love THEM but themselves instead. It is just like the story above of the prodigal son and inheritance. He chose to take it early and to waste it. He realized after wasting it that he had not right base on the choice he made. However, this is what makes the merit of grace so great!

For YAHWEH so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten SON, that everyone believing into HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Everlasting life is return to all flesh beings that believes in HIM. How do you believe by choosing to obey. Joshua said choose who you will serve. All the animals sacrificed throughout the centuries could never TAKE AWAY SIN! Only THE SON dying, but we still must accept HIS death under the original requirement, obedience! We don't have Righteous we don't even earn it. It is a gift that was given to our first parents and it will be given to all who will choose to obey.

Finally, I present to you the problem that most miss, our ways and thoughts are not like THE ALMIGHTY ONES. It is THE HOLY SPIRIT that opens the mind to receive the renewing of the mind! It has been said, that the mind is a terrible thing to waste. We waste it on Greek philosophy and that not the way THEY came. They came through an ancient language to signified THEIR RIGHT as OUR CREATORS! THEY made it simple, we make it complicated. We uplift Greek theology which is the study of theos and not of THE ALMIGHTY ONES! We need to define what words means and how we use them. I am a simple person, I don't know everything! But, I do know that I must choose and I have to love THEM and accept THEIR WORD and follow it. That's my choice! This merit was given to us at creation and our parents lost their right to rule this earth because they choose to actually lose their power. So there you have it what I Marrian understand and choose to accept! I only can present to you all in the best way that I can simple and to the point. I truly hope that I made my presentation more clear.

May You All be Blessed!

 

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, hch said:

My understanding is this: Jesus pleads for us in the Most Holy until He declares "It is done." He throws down His censor, changes His robes, and comes for His saints. There might be a span of 7 days from His leaving Heaven until He arrives to the earth for His saints.

This is the traditional SDA teaching; I understand why you understand this way.  However, I understand differently. I understand that Jesus will have already gathered His saints prior to His announcement of Rev. 22:11:

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

[hch]

10 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I understand that Jesus will have already gathered His saints prior to His announcement of Rev. 22:11

Be sure to Share the Scriptures that lead you to this view.

[JoeMo]

8 minutes ago, hch said:

Be sure to Share the Scriptures that lead you to this view.

Rev. 14:14-20 describes the harvest of the earth immediately prior to the seven bowls of God's wrath falling in the earth. First the saints of the earth are harvested, then those who remain are put into the winepress of God's wrath.  Rev. 15 and 16 expand on God's wrath.  These are those who are filthy still.

Yet, this is not the end of sin.  at the end of the millennium, evil will once again raise it's ugly head.  Those who went to the grave in conscious rebellion against God will arise still in rebellion.  They remain filthy still.  They will all perish.  Then only the righteous will remain righteous still - for eternity.

[hch]

1 minute ago, JoeMo said:

Rev. 14:14-20 describes the harvest of the earth immediately prior to the seven bowls of God's wrath falling in the earth.

This is true, but should it be read sequentially? 

Notice this passage in Rev 12:1-4

Quote

¶  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

If that was read sequentially, it is out of harmony with the events that it describes. When verse 1 & 2 are understood to be the intro,  vss 3-4 a caveat to explain what led up to those events, it makes sense. But to take the sequence as it appears would be a wrong reading.

Does a correct understanding of how to read Rev 12 shed any light on how Rev 14 is written?

[stinsonmarri]

16 hours ago, hch said:

My understanding is this: Jesus pleads for us in the Most Holy until He declares "It is done." He throws down His censor, changes His robes, and comes for His saints. There might be a span of 7 days from His leaving Heaven until He arrives to the earth for His saints.

HCH: May I ask you where did you read that YAHSHUA cast down the censer? This is what I read:

And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. Rev 8:5  

This is the beginning of the Seven Trumpets and if we just read the Chapter just like it states we will understand what it means. Look, I know SDA has taken the view that YAHSHUA is about to come, but they misunderstood. We were told it will be understood in our time.

This Chapter begins with Heaven being silent for an half hour. I present to you that this silence is because what is about to happen. The half hour in prophetic time is 30 days here on earth. If YAHSHUA was returning to the earth all the angels are going to come with HIM! Instead, we see 7 angels with 7 trumpets getting ready to blow. These are angels are presenting events that are about to take place on this earth. If you just allow me to go back to Chapter 6:14-17 and present that during this time YAHSHUA was about to come! But then Chapter 7:1, 2 four angels are holding the four corners of the earth that the wind will not blow on the earth, the sea, and any tree! Then there is an angel flying swiftly from the east with the seal of THE LIVING MOST HIGH, crying aloud to those four angels to not let the wind blow until all the servants of THE MOST HIGH are seal!

Then you see who are seal, two groups; the first is the 144,000 and the second is the great multitude. I will say briefly IsraEL means to overcome so this not talking about the ancient people and those who says they are Jews says they are not the ancient Hebrews call IsraEL. (Please read 1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3) So, I am saying that the angel stop the events of Rev 6:14-17 to take place because the seed of the woman in both Gen 3:15 and Rev 12:17 had not been sealed! The 144,000 must be seal before the 7 trumpets can blow! Why because the first four trumpets begins the Time of Trouble which is distress actually on the entire earth!

Four trumpets are the Wrath of THE MOST HIGH on the earth rebellious people denying  who HE IS! The 144,000 and those in Dan 12:2 will now wake up the great multitude which in Chapter nine! The three woes deals with the release of the evil angels from prison, their torture on the wicked who want to die but can't and the beast revealing himself. Once this happen the final woe reveals the coming of YAHSHUA. Each chapter after explain the scene to take place a little more detail until 19. That Chapters see YAHSHUA comes with all the angels and the beast and the false prophet is place in the Lake of Fire. Chapter 20 show that now Satan also is place in prison along with the angels for a thousand years. 21-22 reveals the New Jerusalem, the saints and YAHSHUA returning and the reward of both the righteous saints and the wicked are going to take place. The wicked will burn  (that their reward) and the righteous saints reward is the new earth, THE FATHER, THE SON, THE HOLY SPIRIT will live with them in Jerusalem. The Temple in Heaven will now be on this earth made new and sin will be eradicated forever!

I urge all to just read it first and follow the sequence. 

Blessings!