Who's fooling who?

[hch]

The 2300-year Prophecy

The 457 BC cleansing of the Sanctuary foreshadows a more complete final fulfillment of Daniel 8:14 that occurs at the end of 2300 years, which in turn foreshadows a more complete final fulfillment. The Temple in heaven will be completely cleansed, only when Jesus stands and declares:

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He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward [is] with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be (Revelation 22:11-12).

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From the date of the decree of the king of Persia, found in Ezra 7… given in 457 before Christ, the 2300 years of Daniel 8:14 must terminate with 1843.[1]

2300 years Starting                                             -457 BC Ending                                              1843 AD

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The 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them.[2]

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Those faithful…ones, who could not understand why their Lord did not come, were not left in darkness. Again, they were led to their Bibles to search the prophetic periods... They saw that the prophetic periods reached to 1844, and that the same evidence they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time. --If the vision tarry, wait for it. --In their love for Jesus’ immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones.[3]

Does the same evidence about the 2300-year prophecy that began in 457 BC and ended in 1843 prove that it will end in 1844? For the same evidence to prove both dates to be true, the 2300-years must have more than one fulfillment.

When Christ did not come in 1843, when the 2300 years were fulfilled, the Adventists assumed that the date was the error rather than the event, which was the real problem because  of the traditional view that the earth was the sanctuary. They went back to the Bible to learn that when BC changed to AD, there was no year zero. When the missing year was added, the prophecy ended in 1844. Therefore, the 2300-year prophecy that had one start date, had two end dates. Further Bible study revealed that the sanctuary that was to be cleanse was in Heaven.   

70 x 7 weeks/years allotted to Jews              490 years Starting                                                              -457 BC 490 years ended                                                 33 AD No year zero between BC/AD                          +1 Stoning of Stephen/gospel to the gentiles   34 AD 2300-490=years remaining                       +1810 years 2300 years ended                                          1844 AD

It is like friends in Nashville and Chattanooga (separated by a time zone) doing lunch at noon. The time zone must be specified or one may be an hour early or an hour late. From the BC perspective, the 2300 years ended in 1843. From the AD perspective (on the other side of the time zone), they ended in 1844. Thus, both dates are correct and important.

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They were correct in their reckoning of the prophetic periods; prophetic time closed in 1844, and Jesus entered the most holy place to cleanse the sanctuary at the ending of the days.[4]

The 2300 days were fulfilled twice in long time, i.e., the 2300 years ran concurrently from 457 BC to end in 1843 & 1844. They had a partial fulfillment when they ended the first time in 1843, and a more complete fulfillment, when they ended the second time in 1844: The final long-time fulfillment began and ended on the Day of Atonement.

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The decree of Artaxerxes for the restoration of Jerusalem, which formed the starting-point for the period of the 2300 days, went into effect in the autumn of the year B. C. 457... Reckoning from the autumn of 457, the 2300 years terminate in the autumn of 1844.[5]

God’s timing is perfect! From 605 BC, the 70 years that Jeremiah prophesied were doubled: The 140 years ended in 465 BC. A tarrying time intervened. After 2300 days; the rebuilt Sanctuary was cleansed as Daniel had prophesied. Thus, God established 457 BC to end the Temple’s desolation and to start the 2300-year countdown to 1843 and 1844 AD with a brief tarrying time included to try the faithful. Thus, God made an allowance for the transition between BC and AD. In 1844, in the fulfillment of the 2300 years of Daniel 8:14, Christ stood for His people, and the cleansing of the Sanctuary in heaven began. God’s word was and is True.

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[1] LS80 185.2, ed

[2] ExV 61.1

[3] 1SG 138.1, ed

[4] EW 243.2

[5] GC88 398.3, ed

[Gregory Matthews]

To subtract 457 from the 2300 figure to obtain a date of 1843 is a common mistake that is made by people who do not understand  the BC/AD dating system that we have today.  That actual data obtained by such is not 1843.  

Ignorance of the issue involved here can not be excused as a technical issue that should only be expected to be known by scholars.  This issue has been published so widely that we can expect that everyone who comments on this date would be aware of the issue and make the appropriate adjustment to the date obtained.

The actual date is 1844.

The adjustment that is required to be made is due to the fact that there is not a "zero year" that exists between a BC and an AD date.

The following website is one place where one can   become informed as to this  issue.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_zero

 

NOTE:  My comment here is NOT focused on HCH.  He has  quoted from people who have used the 1843 date as well as the 1844 date.

 

 

[hch]

Repeated Prophecy is Fulfilled Again!

God gave His people prophetic time to lead them step-by-step to 1844. Seeing how God led His people in the past, should we expect Him to lead us differently now?

History confirms that the prophecy of Daniel 8:14 repeated itself. This prophecy has been fulfilled multiple times. From the same evidence, i.e., from the same prophecy that God fulfilled the 2300 literal days in 457 BC; God ended this long time (day for a year prophecy) in 1843 and again in 1844. To deny that God fulfilled Daniel 8:14 twice in long time (once in 1843 and again in 1844), is to deny the tarrying time. The beginning date of the tarrying time (1843) and its ending date (1844) confirms: God’s word is true!

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For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry (Habakkuk 2:3).

Jesus/Michael stood to confess His people before His Father and His angels in heaven (Revelation 3:5) in 1844 at the end of the 2300 years when the Investigative Judgment began. This partially fulfilled Daniel 12:1 (Michael shall stand), only partially, because the Great Time of Trouble did not begin in 1844. When Daniel 12:1 meets its final complete fulfillment, Christ will again stand to declare: It is done, as the final Great Time of Trouble is engulfing the world.

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The Lord has shown me in vision, that Jesus rose up, and shut the door, and entered the Holy of Holies, at the 7^th month 1844; but Michael’s standing up (Daniel 12:1) to deliver His people, is in the future.[1]

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He that overcometh…I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels          (Revelation3:5).

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[1] WLF 12.4, ed

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, hch said:

Jesus/Michael stood to confess His people before His Father and His angels in heaven (Revelation 3:5)

I'm confused.  I thought Michael was Michael Pence?

[hch]

12 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I'm confused.  I thought Michael was Michael Pence?

That will get cleared up in a while.

Michael is a heavenly name for Jesus, but before He stands for His people the final time: Satan will work some deceptions.

Michael Pence is one of those unfortunate counterfeits (as I read it). The facts will be shared soon.

[hch]

Prophetic Time

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“Active preachers and exhorters in 1844, now seemed to have lost their moorings, and did not know where we were in prophetic time; they were fast uniting with the spirit of the world.”[1] “Many of them have denied the prophetic time and the fulfillment of prophecy, because the time passed in 1844, and did not bring the expected event.”[2]

What expected event? Christ’s Second Advent! What is the spirit of the world that is affecting their moorings?

In the writings of Ellen White, she ALWAYS uses the terms definite time and prophetic time in the context of Christ’s Second Coming. This prophetic time ended in Revelation 10: “The angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. This time which the angel declares … reaches to the autumn of 1844…in regard to the time of the advent of our Lord…”[3] “Prophetic time…for the coming of the Lord.”[4]

What is the spirit of the world that was overcoming the disappointed ones? The world denies all time prophecy.

The longest prophetic time in the Bible that identifies Christ’s Coming was fulfilled in 1844. If Christ had come, the prophetic time that foretold His Coming would have met its perfect fulfillment. The term prophetic time, as White used it, NEVER means all time prophecies. Prophetic time is time prophecy that gives the definite time of Christ’s Coming. After 1844, there are no messages in the Bible of prophetic time that gives the definite time of Christ’s Coming.

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I was a firm believer in definite time in 1844, but this prophetic time was not shown me in vision... There were many proclaiming a new time after this, but I was shown that we should not have another definite time to proclaim.[5]

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The world placed all time proclamation on the same level... Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of the Lord’s coming. We do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that Christ is at the door.[6]

White’s statement: With no time proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of the Lord’s coming, is being confused with the world’s view that places all time proclamation on the same level. In context, she clearly intended the term time proclamation to mean the definite time of the Lord’s coming. She is saying that no proclamation of the definite time of Christ’s coming is to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the Lord’s Coming. White NEVER cites prophetic time as meaning all time prophecy. Yet even authorities, who diligently study her writings, have confused her view about no prophetic time with the world’s view about all time prophecy. White’s view of the ending of prophetic time in 1844 cannot be understood correctly without understanding that White used the term prophetic time to mean the definite time of Christ’s Coming; not as the world, as: All time prophecy.

Since White repeatedly dealt with people, who were setting times for Christ’s Coming, she wrote quite a bit of counsel warning of their error. That counsel has been misunderstood and misapplied to all time prophecy.

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Time after time will be set by different ones which will pass by; and the influence of this time-setting will be to destroy the faith of God’s people.[7]

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Again and again have I been warned in regard to time setting. There will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time. We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ.[8]

In context, White is warning: Regarding time setting, there will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ.

While assuring believers that there are no other time prophecies giving the definite time of Christ’s Coming, White focused on true time prophecies that were founded on solid Bible study. But while rebuking time setters, did White teach (as some believe) that ALL time prophecy stopped in 1844?

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There will always be false and fanatical movements made by persons in the church who claim to be led of God—those who will run before they are sent, and will give day and date for the occurrence of unfulfilled prophecy. The enemy is pleased to have them do this, for their successive failure and leading into false lines cause confusion and unbelief. There is enough revealed and substantiated by the Word of God to show the lines upon which they can work.[9]

Likewise, White is not saying that Bible students never will give the correct day and date for the occurrence of unfulfilled prophecy. God has and will continue to send faithful Bible students to rightly divide the word of Truth.

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The Revelation is a sealed book, but it is also an open book, recording marvelous events that are to take place in the last days of this earth’s history. Its teachings are definite, not mystical and unintelligible, and God would have us understand it.[10]

Thus, the times in Revelation are definite, not mystical and unintelligible. God would have us to understand them.

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In the year 1840, another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the Second Advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and specifying not only the year but the very day on which this would take place. According to this exposition, which was purely a matter of calculation on the prophetic periods of Scripture, the Turkish government would surrender its independence on the eleventh day of August, 1840. The prediction was widely published, and thousands watched the course of events with eager interest.

At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the Advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended.[11]

 

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[1] LS88 205.1

[2] LS88 221.1

[3] 1MR 99.3-100.1, ed

[4] LS 57.3, ed

[5] 16MR 177.2, ed

[6] 16MR 178.2, ed

[7] LS80 221.1

[8] 1SM 188.1, ed

[9] Lt28-1897.15

[10] ST, January 11, 1899 par. 5

[11] GC88 334.4-5, ed

[JoeMo]

I've said this before and I'll say it again ... IMHO applying the "day for year" concept to all prophecy is a mistake. That concept only applies to the specific prophecies (judgements, actually) where it is mentioned.  1844 was just another year.  Also, 1844 would NOT be the last time related prophecy (if it was indeed a time-related prophecy).  I have posted previously a time prophecy which makes proper use of the Ezekiel's "day for year" prophecy that foretold the reestablishment of Israel as a nation in 1948.  That actually did happen as prophesied.  While that prophecy may not foretell the exact time of Jesus' return, it does indicate that the time of the end may be at hand.

[hch]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I've said this before and I'll say it again ... IMHO applying the "day for year" concept to all prophecy is a mistake. That concept only applies to the specific prophecies (judgements, actually) where it is mentioned.  1844 was just another year.  Also, 1844 would NOT be the last time related prophecy (if it was indeed a time-related prophecy).  I have posted previously a time prophecy which makes proper use of the Ezekiel's "day for year" prophecy that foretold the reestablishment of Israel as a nation in 1948.  That actually did happen as prophesied.  While that prophecy may not foretell the exact time of Jesus' return, it does indicate that the time of the end may be at hand.

It appears that you are following my postings.

Thus, you are familiar with the evidence shared a few posts earlier that the destruction of the Temple predicted by Ezekiel was specifically linked to the day for a year principle. And that a literal 2300 day period of time has been discovered at the end of the 140 allotted for the Temple's destruction. The restoration of the Temple came about immediately after the fulfillment of the140 years and the  2300 literal days that followed them. And the cleansing of the Temple in 457 BC could not have fulfilled the prophecy since beginning in 457 BC and continuing until the Temple was destroyed, it was cleansed yearly. 

It is like washing the dishes. I am washing them while I am washing them, but the dishes are not washed until I am finished washing them. The sanctuary that was cleansed yearly, was not completely cleansed before it was destroyed, nor can any Temple  be cleansed until the process is finished, when Christ says "IT IS DONE!"

From Ezra's account of the 3 kings in Persia that issued decrees and that the last decree took affect in 457, it confirms that this is the starting date that Ellen White,  and so many others have written about. 

The evidence … Based on the historical data, the prophecies, Ellen White, and others that have utilized the start date of 457 BC, a thorough study of the facts understood thus far allow no other beginning or ending dates (1843 & 1844).

For you to suggest a 1948 date, you must of necessity be using a different start date. To do so you would need scriptural support and historical evidence to validate such. 

The flack that I generally encounter is that even though EGW declares that the date 1843 is as God would have it on the historical chart and though she states that 1844 is when Jesus began to stand for His people, there are many SDA;s that refuse to consider that the tarrying time was of a specific duration and that the dates that show when it started and ended historically prove that the 2300 years ran concurrently and ended twice. Thus they tend to toss out 1843 and make a big deal of 1844. By tweaking the facts...that does away with an awkward  "wrong in 1843" and the dual application to the 2300 years, etc.

As the study continues, it will prove that Israel was established in 1948, but that will not be linked to the 2300 years.

 

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, hch said:

As the study continues, it will prove that Israel was established in 1948, but that will not be linked to the 2300 years.

I never said it was linked to the 2300 days.  The Bible never explicitly links the 2300 days to the "day for a year" concept.  The prophecy establishing Israel as a country explicitly ties Ezekiel's "day for year" prophecy (or is it judgement?) to Israel's establishment. Rather than give a summary explanation myself, I refer you to the following website:

http://www.theprophecies.com/the-return-of-israel-and-jerusalem/

[hch]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I never said it was linked to the 2300 days.  The Bible never explicitly links the 2300 days to the "day for a year" concept.  The prophecy establishing Israel as a country explicitly ties Ezekiel's "day for year" prophecy (or is it judgement?) to Israel's establishment. Rather than give a summary explanation myself, I refer you to the following website:

http://www.theprophecies.com/the-return-of-israel-and-jerusalem/

JoeMo,

Thank you for sharing that link. IMHO, their reasoning is rather convoluted.

It reminds me of the schedules the tax man has us fill out so that we can calculate our day care deductions, etc.

Do you suppose that they came up with the formula and then tweaked the math to make it sound biblical?

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, hch said:

Do you suppose that they came up with the formula and then tweaked the math to make it sound biblical?

If they did, I can't find the error.  These folks aren't the only ones who have come up with this "fulfillment" of prophecy.  I have heard Dr. Chuck Missler speak of it, as well as several other preachers, including some Messianic Jews.  That being said, just cuz I don't see any scriptural or logical errors in it, doesn't mean there is nothing there.  I'm no expert.  It makes more sense to me than the 2,300 days/years; and it doesn't rely on an alleged prophet to guide us through the math.

Your posts are often mathematical.  If you see any "tweaked" numbers, feel free to point them out to me.

[hch]

13 hours ago, JoeMo said:

If they did, I can't find the error.  These folks aren't the only ones who have come up with this "fulfillment" of prophecy.  I have heard Dr. Chuck Missler speak of it, as well as several other preachers, including some Messianic Jews.  That being said, just cuz I don't see any scriptural or logical errors in it, doesn't mean there is nothing there.  I'm no expert.  It makes more sense to me than the 2,300 days/years; and it doesn't rely on an alleged prophet to guide us through the math.

Your posts are often mathematical.  If you see any "tweaked" numbers, feel free to point them out to me.

JoeMo,

I did not object to their use of math. That website had a bit of truth. I was surprised to see some of my own research tucked into their presentation (though out of context). The flow of their logic is problematic.

For example: That website took the 430 years of Ezekiel's prophecy and cut 70 years off from it. [Ezekiel's day for a year prophecy linked to the third siege of Jerusalem and the final fall of the temple.] The 70-year judgment had already started it countdown from the first fall of Jerusalem (605 BC). Then the website multiplies the remaining [430-70=] 360 years by a 7x factor that comes from who knows where? Why did they not multiply the entire 430 years by this mysterious 7x number before subtracting the 70 years?  The desired results would not have been achieved if they had been consistent in their application of the mysterious 7x factor.

The numbers are being tweaked to get the prophecy to say what they want it to say.

 

[hch]

JoeMo,

After I made the comment above about the website that you shared, I remembered the 70-year prophecy.

It was doubled, as I showed from Jeremiah, They should have taken 140 years from the 430.

When that happens the math won't work.

[hch]

Repeating the Time prophecy in Revelation 13

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“Power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.” And, says the prophet, “I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death.” And again, “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity; he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.” The forty and two months are the same as the “time and times and the dividing of time,” three years and a half, or 1260 days, of Daniel 7, —the time during which the papal power was to oppress God’s people. This period… began with the establishment of the papacy, A. D. 538, and terminated in 1798. At that time, when the papacy was abolished and the pope made captive by the French army, the papal power received its deadly wound, and the prediction was fulfilled, “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity.”[1]

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The word of God teaches that these scenes are to be repeated as papists and Protestants shall unite for the exaltation of the Sunday [Revelation 13:11, 12].[2]

When the scenes in Revelation 13 repeat, they are not isolated from the 42 months. Hold that thought for a moment. The Bible explains itself about the meaning of this time prophecy of the deadly wound and going into captivity.

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[1] GC88 439.2, ed

[2] 4SP 396.2

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, hch said:

hat website took the 430 years of Ezekiel's prophecy and cut 70 years off from it. [Ezekiel's day for a year prophecy linked to the third siege of Jerusalem and the final fall of the temple.] The 70-year judgment had already started it countdown from the first fall of Jerusalem (605 BC). Then the website multiplies the remaining [430-70=] 360 years by a 7x factor that comes from who knows where?

 “‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. (Lev. 26:21).

This and several other verses in Leviticus 26 talk about the punishment being multiplied 7 times over.

It appears that they assumed the seven-fold punishment would begin after the 70-year Babylonian captivity.  I found it interesting that, using the same math, even assuming different start dates. If you start with the year Cyrus released the Israelites from Captivity (536 BC)  you end up in 1948 - the year Israel became a nation.  If you start from the year Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (587 BC  add in the 70 year captivity (taking you to 517 BC 70, You end with the year 1967 - the year Israel recaptured Jerusalem and the Temple Mount for the first time since 70 AD.)

Being open minded, Leviticus talks about three separate times Israel's punishment would be multiplied 7 times over (vs.18, 21, and 23).  Are they the same 7, or 7 X 7 X7 = 343 times?  Furthermore, does it mean the length of the punishment would be extended by 7 times; or the severity of the punishment would be increased by 7 times?

So many questions; so few answers.  I can't wait to hear the "truth" directly from the mouth of our Savior. He is the Truth!

[hch]

The Counterfeit

The rise of the papacy counterfeited Christ’s anointing. This is what happened: The three horns of Daniel 7 were plucked up. Alaric I led the Visigoths’ invasion of the Western Roman Empire. The Arian Heruli invasion followed, under King Odoacer, who deposed Romulus Augustulus, the Western Emperor, in 476 AD. When Odoacer began moving toward the Eastern Roman Empire, its Emperor, Zeno, made the Arian king of the Ostrogoths, Theodoric the Great, the king of Italy. To secure his grasp on Italy, he fought the Heruli and killed King Odoacer. Soon after that (506 AD), the Arian, King Clovis (the Frank) became a Catholic.^[1] After he renounced Arianism, only three of the ten tribes that had invaded the Western Roman Empire retained their Arian Christian beliefs: the Visigoths, Vandals, and Ostrogoths.

After Alaric I died. King Clovis of France, attacked Alaric II; thus, beginning the war upon which “the prevalence of the Catholic or the Arian creed in Western Europe depended.”^[2] When Alaric II, the king of Spain, died during the war, his illegitimate son, Gesalic, succeeded him as the king of the Visigoths. In the meantime, King Theodoric, who was Alaric II’s father-in-law and grandfather of Alaric’s other son (Prince Amalaric), sent an army from Rome in 508^[3] to help the Visigoths defeat the Franks. Theodoric’s army deposed Gesalic, who fled to North Africa to get help from the Vandals to regain his kingdom.

Thus, in 508, Theodoric (an ally of the Eastern Roman Emperor) plucked up the Arian king, Gesalic, to secure the Visigoth throne for his grandson, Prince Amalaric. The 508 victory over King Gesalic begins the 30-year countdown to the rise of the papacy that counterfeited Christ’s 30 years before He was anointed as the Messiah.

On April 7, 529, the Eastern Emperor, Justinian, issued a draft of Codex Justiniani. It began mingling Church and state. “The provisions…influenced the Canon Law of the church since…the church lives under Roman law.”^[4]

Shortly thereafter, the king of the Vandals, Hilderic, became a Catholic. When his Arian cousin, Gelimer, deposed him, the Eastern Roman Army invaded North Africa:

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In June, 533…Belisarius, invaded North Africa, and victory came fast. Belisarius defeated the Vandals by December 533… Churches confiscated by the Vandals were to be returned to Catholic worship, and anyone guilty of having been an Arian Christian was to be excluded from public office.^[5]

King Gelimer was the 2^nd horn plucked up by the pope’s allies in the 30 years between 508—538. The king of the Goths was soon to be the third horn to be plucked up in 538.

After Theodoric the Great died, his daughter, Queen Amalasuntha (an ally of Emperor Justinian) merged the Goths into Roman society. The Gothic nobility opposed giving up their culture. Her husband and son died. To keep her throne, she was compelled to appoint a male figurehead, King Theodahad. He seized power and banished her. Meanwhile, Emperor Justinian (Codex Justiniani 534) made the pope, John II (533-535), the head of all the churches.

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Paying honor to the Apostolic See and to your holiness, as always has been and is our desire, and honoring your blessedness as a father, we hasten to bring to the knowledge of Your Holiness all that pertains to the condition of the churches, since it has always been our great aim to safeguard the unity of your Apostolic See and the position of the holy churches of God which now prevails and abides securely without any disturbing trouble. Therefore, we have been sedulous to subject and unite all the priests of the orient throughout its whole extent to the See of Your Holiness. Whatever questions happen to be mooted at present, we have thought necessary to be brought to Your Holiness’s knowledge, however clear and unquestionable they may be, and though firmly held and taught by all the clergy in accordance with the doctrine of your Apostolic See; for we do not suffer that anything which is mooted, however clear and unquestionable, pertaining to the state of the churches, should fail to be made known to Your Holiness, as being the head of all the churches. For, as we have said before, we are zealous for the increase of the honor and authority of your See in all respects.^[6]

The title Augustus signified that the Eastern Roman Emperor, Justinian, considered himself to be Pontifex Maximus/High Priest Emperor, the head of church and state. Justinian as ever Augustus, head of church and state, made it clear that the Bishop of Rome/the pope, John II was his subordinate. Justinian clearly intended that the pope: 1) Receive honor, 2) Take charge of all the churches, 3) Extend his influence to the orient, 4) Institute doctrines for the entire church, and 5) To have his authority increased.

After Justinian had put all of the churches under Pope John II and had given him authority as his subordinate, John II died. Agapetus became pope. Queen Amalasuntha was assassinated, and King Theodahad pleaded with Pope Agapetus to go to Constantinople to pacify Justinian.[7] Agapetus died in Constantinople, and Silverius was “made pope through the influence of the King of the Goths.”^[8] After Theodahad had meddled with the selection of Pope Silverius, Emperor Justinian reasserted his authority over the Catholic Church in Rome: The court at Constantinople gave Vigilius 700 pounds of gold and sent him to Rome to be pope.

In the meantime, Justinian’s Army had returned to Italy from plucking up King Gelimer, in Africa. King Theodahad was killed. The Ostrogoths made Witigis king. He left Rome to fetch Theodoric’s granddaughter, Matasuntha to be his wife. When he got back to Rome, the Eastern Roman Army was camped outside the city: He attacked it. Pope Silverius subsequently allowed Justinian’s army to enter Rome. General Belisarius then turned on Silverius and installed Vigilius as pope. General Belisarius broke Witigis’ siege of Rome in 538 and captured him. King Witigis apparently died in Constantinople. As Daniel prophesied, three horns were plucked up: Kings Gesalic (Visigoth), Gelimer (Vandal), and Witigis (Ostrogoth). They were the first Germanic tribes of the original ten that accepted Arian Christianity, and the final three to be changed to Catholicism.

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The Visigoths first embraced the gospel as a nation; they were followed by the Ostrogoths; with these the Vandals... At the close of the fifth century, the Franks were converted…[9]

Then Pope Vigilius (the head of the Roman Catholic Church) was enabled to implement the Eastern Roman Emperor’s plans as set forth in Codex Justiniani.

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The vast empire of Rome crumbled to pieces, and from its ruins rose that mighty power, the Roman Catholic Church.^[10]

As much as God would allow, the papacy counterfeited Christ’s life and ministry. As Jesus lived for 30 years before being anointed, the papacy gradually increased in favor with men for 30 years from 508-538. As Jesus had victory over three temptations before beginning His ministry, the papacy’s allies plucked up three Arian kings to enable the pope to be anointed as a subordinate of the state. As Christ’s ministry continued for 3.5 years/1260 days, the papacy reigned 1260 years (with a day being symbolic of a year) from 538 to 1798. Then the papacy received its deadly wound.

As the rise and reign of the papacy counterfeited times and aspects in Christ’s life and ministry, it counterfeited Christ’s deadly wound: Jesus recovered from His death at His resurrection when He came back to life.

Jesus was betrayed by a friend. Likewise, the French had befriended the papacy and had been foremost in fighting for the pope’s supremacy: They betrayed Pope Pius VI. As Jesus was jailed, Pius VI was taken captive. Jesus was taken on Thursday and died Friday. Pope Pius VI was jailed in 1798 and died in 1799. Jesus rested in his tomb on Sabbath. There was not a pope for the balance of 1799: The papacy rested. Jesus rose on Sunday, the first day of the new week. Pope Pius VII was installed in 1800, the first year of the new century. Prophecy was fulfilled: The papacy counterfeited Christ’s deadly wound that was healed!

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[1] Some scholars date Clovis’ baptism 496, 506, or as late as 508

[2] https://openlibrary.org/books/OL23435375M [The Franks, from Their First Appearance in History to the Death of King Pepin, 1857, WC Perry] p. 85 Cf The Merovingian Kingdoms 450-751, Ian Wood, p. 47

[3] http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/siege_arles_507.html

[4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Byzantine_Empire/Selected_article, ed

[5] http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h01const.htm, ed

[6] Codex Justiniani, lib. 1, tit. 1; translation given by R. F. Littledale, The Petrine Claims, p. 293

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Agapetus_I#cite_ref-6

[8] http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15427b.htm, “Pope Vigilius”

[9] Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald. September 21, 1886, Periodical Issue, Seventh-day Adventist Publishing Association Triumph of Christianity 1

[10] YI, September 22, 1903 par. 6

[JoeMo]

From an Eastern Orthodox and Middle Eastern perspective, the Roman Empire existed until the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople (named after the Roman King Constantine) in the 15th century.  All of the history above is taken strictly from a western perspective.  The Bible was written from an Eastern/Oriental perspective.  Islam considered Constantinople part of the Roman Kingdom until they conquered Constantinople and renamed it Istanbul.

[hch]

11 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

From an Eastern Orthodox and Middle Eastern perspective, the Roman Empire existed until the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople (named after the Roman King Constantine) in the 15th century.  All of the history above is taken strictly from a western perspective.  The Bible was written from an Eastern/Oriental perspective.  Islam considered Constantinople part of the Roman Kingdom until they conquered Constantinople and renamed it Istanbul.

The Eastern Roman Empire will have its day in the sun a little later in this thread.

[hch]

Repeated Time Prophecy is Fulfilled

White acknowledged that the papacy had counterfeited Christ’s 1260 days of ministry during the 1260 years of papal supremacy from 538 to 1798. She stated: “Pius VI…the pope specified in prophecy…received the deadly wound.”[1] White later wrote that the Revelation 13:5, 3, & 10 were to be fulfilled in the future.

Yes, White wrote that the time in Revelation 13:5 and the persecution in 13:11-12 would be repeated! Thus, after she wrote that Revelation 13:5, 3, & 10 had been fulfilled in the past, she also placed 13:5 (42 months), 13:10 (captivity, i.e., the deadly wound), and 13:3 (its healing) in the future:

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In the last days...will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator’s prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.][2]

Does White’s statement above really mean that the 42 months (13:5) will be repeated before Jesus Comes in glory? White did not just say that the events in Revelation 13 would be repeated. She wrote out the passage in longhand including the verse containing the time in the prophecy that is to be repeated when the prophecy has its final fulfillment!

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The reference you asked about {In the last days... will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator’s prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.]} is correct. When you see an item like this in the Manuscript Releases, enclosed in square brackets, it means that in Ellen White’s material, she quoted the named passage, but for economy of space, we will not quote it here, but merely give the reference so that the reader can look it up and read it, if desired. So, it does indeed refer to these verses in Revelation 13, and this is the prophecy that she mentioned just before the reference. …I confirmed it by going to the manuscript, where the verses were written out.[3]

Some allege that White said all time prophecy stopped in 1844. If that were so, White would not clearly place the final fulfillment of the 42 months (Revelation 13:5) in the last days. She made her position clear:

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“And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” Revelation 13:4-10. This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place.[4]

After 1844, White stated that the 42 months WILL SURELY TAKE PLACE in context: This will happen in the future… After 1844. This time prophecy is to have a final complete fulfillment. It has been fulfilled in recent history. (It will be examined in detail as this Bible study continues.)

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[1] 5MR 318.1, ed

[2] 19MR 282.1, ed

[3] William Fagal, Associate Director, Ellen G. White Estate, 12501 Old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, MD 20904-6600 U.S.A.

[4] 7BC 979.10, ed

[stinsonmarri]

On 6/1/2019 at 8:23 PM, hch said:

How can God’s people be sure that they are rightly dividing the word of truth with so many counterfeit and contradictory teachings existing? All of it cannot be right.

How true these words, that's why the Bible did not select a religion or a church.

ONE MASTER, one belief, one immersion, Eph 4:5 TS2009

All churches claim they are correct and their leader or leader is the proof base on what they write and what they say concerning the Bible! All the religions make the same claim with their traditions and doctrines. They also claim the proof is their writings and their interpretation of the Bible. I say none is right according to the Bible.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Pe 1:20 

Well here we go, everyone, says well Marrian, don't you interpret the Bible. I will say no because I accept it just as it says in its original meaning! There is a difference in interpretation and understanding. I give an example, Rev 13 666 for years I thought or agreed with the SDA doctrine or tradition that this number was only the beast and yes the pope! Well, the first thing I realize that the papacy cannot be riding the beast and also be the beast at the end. The papacy is the whore and Gabriel told John this:

And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. Rev 17:7 

The angel said two things the mystery of the woman and the mystery of the beast. So I read and understand that they both are a mystery. Who's mystery earthy beings or YAHWEH?  Why YAHWEH of course. Next, the beast carries the woman and the beast hath the seven heads and ten horns. So, they are two separate entities they play important roles. However, we are only concern with the beast at this moment!  I notice that these Scriptures Gabriel was dealing only with the beast.

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.  And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. Rev 17:8-11

Here are the things I notice:

The beast was, is not and then ascend out of the bottomless pit,

It goes into perdition which means destruction,

All who wonder or follow after the beast is not in the Book of Life,

Now, the beast was, is not and yet is-again three specific time periods. The proof was is past, is not means you are not now, yet is mean now you are here!

Here is the mind that has wisdom is YAHWEH'S intellect or understanding.

This beast that was present in three different periods of time is the of the seven but he actually the eighth and final one that goes into destruction. 

I also realized that Daniel had to say the same thing:

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. Dan 7:7, 20

What I also notice is that the little horn was at one time in the fourth beast head and the fourth beast was exactly like Rev 13:1, 2 and the horn became a head of the beast or mature and this seventh head was wounded and its wound was so great it almost killed off the beast! I see also that the beast was giving to burning flames in both Dan and Rev. So how do 666 connect? I notice that the beast was in the past or last say was the beginning of all major problems on the earth. There were seven major empires of the world: Assyria, Egypt, Neo-Babylon Greece/Rome, and Papal Rome. If you notice in the fourth beast of Dan the beast had iron teeth only. As great as Rome was it base everything on Greece, it was a shadow of Greece and so are we even today! Our political structure is shaped from Greece all the way to our beliefs system we use Greek words. We only use Latin words for medicine and Catholic change Latin words into it liturgy only!

I realize that even EGW said that we will have to let things go to understand the truth. I then realize that why of course 6 is us because we all fail from being perfect which is seven! So when did the beast begin, it was Nimrod, then again showing himself but is not so powerful as it was in the beginning? That was the papacy who never had the power of Nimrod but was mighty in her own right, had daughters but they didn't actually rebel because they kept her major belief she taught them. Sunday over the Sabbath! She sent them out to have fornication with the leaders of the world and back they are coming. Even SDA who gave her a medallion and Arthur Maxwell received a special gift of sin from her, you need to read about it! She lost her kingdoms but not her ecclesiastical powers! She was almost taken out by Napoleon but Mussolini brought her back only as the world church! This almost killed the person that YAHWEH had for showing up the beast. Satan always wants to destroy the prophecies like he doing today! But, the beast was wounded almost to death but he was healed. He allowed the horn in his head to take over but she was trying to become him! That is not in YAHWEH'S Plans and he realizes who she was and left for someone who had unbelievable power, a kingdom where seat authority reign supreme! Why of course Satan who now nourishes him for the world biggest surprise! The beast will return to rid the lesser power and think to be worship for a moment until the image/Satan comes alive!

Presentation people, read and study for yourself because there is only one truth!

Happy Sabbath and be blessed everyone!

[hch]

Marri,

Thanks for sharing the post above.  As you have been following the thread, you have seen that some of this material has been covered, And some of it is yet to come. But as we study, some differences may be mentioned that will take more study.

[JoeMo]

49 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Well, the first thing I realize that the papacy cannot be riding the beast and also be the beast at the end.

AMEN! ?

 

51 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

There were seven major empires of the world: Assyria, Egypt, Neo-Babylon Greece/Rome, and Papal Rome

First Issue is you only list 5 or 6 kingdoms here.

53 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.  And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. Rev 17:8-11

I divide the Kingdoms as follows: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece (the 5 kingdoms which have fallen), Rome (the Kingdom that Is), and Islam (the 7th (Ottoman Empire) and 8th (Global Islam) Kingdoms.  It's happened in the Middle East and North Africa; and is now spreading across Europe; and if left unchecked, the map of the modern Islamic Kingdom will look a lot like the Ottoman Empire did at it's height. 

[hch]

Making White Contradict Herself

White is not contradicting herself: No time prophecy after 1844. People are misunderstanding and misinterpreting her statements to make her say what she did not say:

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They put their own interpretation upon the Word and make it contradict what the Lord has revealed in the testimonies.[1]

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If we are the Lord’s appointed messengers, we shall not spring up with new ideas and theories to contradict the message that God has given through His servants since 1844. At that time many sought the Lord with heart and soul and voice. The men whom God raised up were diligent searchers of the Scriptures. And those who today claim to have light, and who contradict the teaching of God’s ordained messengers, who were working under the Holy Spirit’s guidance, those who get up new theories, which remove the pillars of our faith, are not doing the will of God, but are bringing in fallacies of their own invention, which, if received, will cut the church away from the anchorage of truth, and set them drifting, drifting, to where they will receive any sophistries that may arise.[2]

By changing the meaning of prophetic time from the definite time of Christ Coming as White used it, to mean all time prophecy, some teachers within the church have cut the church away from the anchorage of truth, and have set it adrift, to where it has received many sophistries that have arisen. Those who have been deceived by the idea that ALL time prophecy stopped in 1844 (a theory that contradicts the message that God has given through His servants after 1844) have removed a pillar of our faith. They are not doing the will of God. They are in darkness. They are casting their shadow upon the paths of others and blocking White’s writings from doing their appointed work as the lesser light.

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Increased light has come to me as I have imparted the light given me. I have very much more light on the Old and New Testament Scriptures, which I shall present to our people if my way is not blocked…[3]

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It is the nobler work to build up; to present the truth in its force and power, and let it cut its way through prejudice, and reveal error in contrast with truth.[4]

People misunderstand White. They misquote her:

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My words are so wrested and misinterpreted that... What I say is reported in such a perverted light that it is new and strange to me. It is mixed with words spoken by men to sustain their own theories.[5]

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With their distorted views of the matter they have discussed the question…until their spiritual vision has become so confused that they can only see men as trees walking. They have thought they could see a contradiction in my article… and that article on the same subject... I must contend that I am the best judge of the things which have been presented before me in vision; and none need fear that I shall by my life contradict my own testimony, or that I shall fail to notice any real contradiction in the views given me.[6]

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When the word of the Lord comes to churches and to individuals, there are always those who refuse to hear aright or to see aright. Their defective hearing and seeing puts them far out of the way... those who would misinterpret my words to mean what they want them to mean. Their eyes are so blinded that they cannot see; their ears are so dulled that they cannot hear. They circulate reports as being what Sister White has said, when I said no such thing.[7]

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Do not quote my works again as long as you live until you can obey the Bible. When you make the Bible your food, your meat and your drink, when you make its principles the elements of your character, you will know better how to receive counsel from God. I exalt the precious word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, “Sister White said this,” and, “Sister White said that.” Find out what the Lord God…says, and then do what He commands.[8]

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The word of God covers a period of history reaching from the creation to the coming of the Son of man in the clouds of heaven… Through all these centuries the truth of God has remained the same. That which was truth in the beginning is truth now. Although new and important truths appropriate for succeeding generations have been opened to the understanding, the present revealings do not contradict those of the past. Every new truth understood only makes more significant the old.[9]

“There is nothing in the word of God to be thrown aside...”[10] “The Bible must be your counselor. Study it and the testimonies God has given; for they never contradict His Word.”[11] White’s statements agree with the Bible!

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[1] 10MR 311.2

[2] 4MR 247.2

[3] 9MR 23.2, ed

[4] 20MR 136.3

[5] 2MR 152.2, ed

[6] 1T 462.3, ed

[7] 21MR 428.1, ed

[8] 5MR 141.1, ed

[9] RH, March 2, 1886 par. 6, ed

[10] ST, June 3, 1886 par. 13, ed

[11] 3SM 32.3

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, hch said:

White is not contradicting herself: No time prophecy after 1844. People are misunderstanding and misinterpreting her statements to make her say what she did not say:

Frankly, I don't consider EGW as highly as you do.  I don't misinterpret her; I just don't swallow everything she has to say; especially where prophecy is concerned.  She is no more a prophet than Billy Graham or Martin Luther.  Even Paul and Peter got stuff wrong concerning the second coming.

I don't think EGW contradicts herself, either.  I think her theology evolved, just like ours (or at least mine) has in the past 30 years.

[Lone Ranger]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I don't think EGW contradicts herself, either.  I think her theology evolved, just like ours (or at least mine) has in the past 30 years.

As an aside and not to de- rail the thread,  I DO think EGW contradicts herself. I hold this point of view because, IMO, although her theology can be characterized as "evolving over time" at the same time some of her books contain contradictory statements within the same book.