Who's fooling who?

[stinsonmarri]

5 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The minority is not always wrong.

However the fact remains that you are in the minority in the position that i cited.  If you think otherwise you simply do not understand.

Again, it makes me sad for you to say I do not understand. I understand quite well that you now state: "the minority is not always wrong." This statement was made because I stated about the pioneer was the minority in the Millerites Movement. I understand that you stated; "You have posted well the argument in favor of that position." Then said; "However, that argument is not as well grounded as you may think." So I am not capable to understand that you presented a mixed message as if I need to be patted on the head and then still reprimanded. I think not sir! I have a degree just like you have, no I did not complete my Master, instead, I had to stop and take care of my parents. I understand very well even if I am a woman. 

When one chooses not to read or study the facts and reasons why the majority goes against the reasons you will see it over and over in the Bible. Allow this person whom you seem to think do not understand. The majority did not believe there would be a flood, a majority followed Nimrod, the majority of brothers sold Joseph,  the majority worship the golden image,  the majority of Israelites never enter Canaan, the majority of Israel over and over worship Baal! The majority formed the Kingdom of Israel, many left the Kingdom of Israel and join Judah in Hezekiah days, but the majority of the Kingdom of Israel was scattered as YAHWEH stated! The majority never return to Jerusalem, they remain in Babylon and then was scattered over the earth. The majority crucified YAHSHUA, the majority refused to accept the message of YAHSHUA. The majority formed the false religion call Judaic from the Pharisees, the majority accepted the Catholic faith, the majority of Protestants worship on Sunday, the majority of SDA ministers went against Jones and Waggoner, the majority of ministers accept the book called Evangelism that Froom wrote and not EGW! The majority of SDA believe in the trinity and try to claim it is not like the Catholic Church and if you read the emblem it is! I could go on and on but I will let the Bible speak for me:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at:  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mat 7:13, 14

Pastor, you are right I refuse to understand scholars today who think they know more than their  CREATOR just like the antediluvian world! I follow the knowledge that YAHWEH said to follow:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the Law of thy ELOHIIYM I will also forget thy children. Hos 4:6 

It appears that ELOHIYM people seem to be the majority here as we see who reject HIS Knowledge and Understanding. I choose to accept and to reject those majority of scholars you accept. I choose the narrow gate which is the minority and I choose to join the remnant a minority and the saints saved is a minority against the majority of the wicked who will be lost. So yes I will take a stand and the majority will not like my stand or my choice but I am glad that YAHWEH does!

Blessings on you Pastor!

[Gregory Matthews]

Stinsonmarri:  I did not intend to reprimand you.  I did not intend to cast aspersion on your mental abilities.  I did not intend to devalue you as a woman.  I did not intend to make any negative suggestion as to your racial background. If in any way, I did any of that, I apologize for doing so.  Such was not my intent.

Yes,  I did suggest that you do not understand some of the aspects of the issues that you write about.  I did so not because of any lack of mental ability on your part.  As you well know, I have given you material privately, that I thought would be helpful to you.  It was only out of respect for your mental abilities that I gave you that material.  I can assure you that if I had thought that you lacked mental ability, I would never have given you that material.

So, why do I say that at times I do not believe that you understand something, because of the manner in which you write as you communicate your thoughts.  You often write in a manner that leads me to think that you do not understand some aspect of the issue on which you are writing.

I respond in telling you that I do not believe that you understand because I do think that you have the mental ability to deal with it..  If I did not think that, I would ignore you.  The fact that I challenge you is evidence that I believe you have the mental abilities to deal with it.

 

  

 

[hch]

Prophecy Identifies who’s who

We are blessed to know so much more today than what was known a hundred years ago while Ellen White yet lived. But we are dependent on the word of God and the Holy Spirit to understand what God is revealing...

The back story in Revelation 12

Prophecy lays the foundation to the identity of the sea-beast/papacy and the earth-beast/America:

Quote

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him (Revelation 12:5-9).

The sequence is important. Obviously, this narrative is not following the historical sequence because here the woman gave birth to the child, who was taken to heaven, but the true sequencing is: First, there was the war in Heaven. Second, Satan and his angels were ejected from heaven. Thirdly, the 1260 years for Israel’s wilderness journey from Moses until Christ was born. Lastly, Christ’s ascension.

Among scholars, the date of the Exodus varies by 100 years or more depending upon the archeologist. William F Albright dated Israel’s Exodus as late as 1200 BCE.^[1] If his date is off, not by a hundred years, but by as few as 20 years, a 1220 BC Exodus places the Egyptian Death Decree and Moses’ birth at 1260 BC. Thus, Moses was 80 years old when he led Israel from Egypt in 1220 BC, and the 7 heads/ kingdoms on the dragon in Revelation 12 are: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Imperial Rome (aligning with Christ’s birth/ascension), and papal Rome that followed.

Satan’s seven heads described in Revelation 12 are the kingdoms that waged war with God’s people for 1260 years. 1) Egypt, the first nation to issue a death decree against the Hebrews. 2) Assyria, it did away with Israel and attempted to annihilate Judah. 3) Babylon, it castrated Jewish princes and killed others {Satan’s effort to prevent Christ’s birth through David’s line}. 4) Medo-Persia, it issued Haman’s death decree against the Jews. 5) Greece, Antiochus IV Epiphanes attempted to eradicate the Jews and Judaism. 6) Imperial Rome {Herod massacred the babies in Bethlehem, and Pilate killed the Man Child, Jesus, who then ascended to Heaven to make intercession for God’s people}. The 7^th head on this dragon beast in Revelation 12 is the kingdom of papal Rome. The seventh head, the papacy professed belief in Christ, but it diverted worship from Christ to the priest.

Quote

“Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.” This scripture has been interpreted to sustain the practice of going to the priest for absolution, but it has no such application. Confess your sins to God who only can forgive them, and your faults one to another... The case is not brought before the priest at all, but before the only true Mediator, our great High Priest [Christ], who “was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin,” and who is “touched with the feeling of our infirmities," and is able to cleanse from every stain of iniquity.[2]

Chapter 13 repeats and enlarges the prophecy in 12 and Daniel 7. It describes the dragon/beast/papacy: A beast with 7 heads. The symbolism is exact. In Bible prophecy, a king can be interchanged with his kingdom as Nebuchadnezzar was in Daniel 2 and 4. The dragon’s heads, kingdoms in Revelation 12, depict kings in 13 that bond with ten horns, which also depict kings. One of the dragon's heads/kings is allotted 42 months to persecute God’s people. This sea-beast with 7 heads and 10 horns receives power and authority from Satan. When Daniel 7 explained the rise of papal Rome, it had “ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell” (Daniel 7:20). Horns are kings: “the great horn…is the first king” (8:21).

When Imperial Rome split into the Western and the Eastern Roman Empires, the Western Empire was invaded by ten tribes: Visigoths, Franks, Ostrogoths (Goths), Heruli, Suevi, Alamanni, Lombards, Burgundians, Vandals, and Saxons. Three of their kings were plucked up by allies of the Eastern Roman up to facilitate the rise of the papacy between 508 to 538. The Eastern Empire that continued after the Western Empire fell was later carved up by ten tribes: the Sassanids, Visigoths, Bulgars, Magyars, Seljuks, Normans, Serbians, Ottoman Turks, Franks, and Arabs.[3]

In the endtime, within the territory that had been the Eastern Roman Empire, America fell two Muslim kings/ leaders (Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein), i.e., two kingdoms: Afghanistan and Iraq, with a third (Iran), soon to fall. As a conflict between Arian Christians and Catholics fulfilled Daniel 7, history is repeating between Islam and American Protestants.

When Revelation 12 moves to 13, it is focusing on the leopardlike beast in Rome that followed the power that crucified Christ: This sea-beast is the papacy. Daniel 7 in conjunction with Revelation 13 positively identifies it.

As Daniel 2 began with Babylon, the four-winged lion in Daniel 7 depicts King Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom. The Medo-Persian kingdom that arose next is depicted as a bear with three ribs in its mouth. The rib symbolism links to Adam and Eve: God took Adam’s rib to fashion Eve around it. The Medo-Persian Empire was created when the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon, Lydia, and Egypt. Similarly, the four-headed four-winged leopard beast was symbolic of Greece. Alexander the Great, created an empire that was divided among his four generals when he died. The indescribable beast with the iron teeth depicts pagan Rome and the ten horns depicts its transition to papal Rome. From papal Rome, the interpretation of Daniel 7 moves to the kings from the EARTH. Likewise, Revelation 13 moves from the sea-beast to the earth-beast: The USA.

Quote

“And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away.” Daniel 7:13, 14. The coming of Christ here described is not His second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of Days in heaven to receive dominion and glory and a kingdom, which will be given Him at the close of His work as a mediator. It is this coming, and not His second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844. Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man--to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.[4]

Yes, the coming of Christ to His Father to commence the Investigative Judgment in 1844 fulfilled Daniel 7:13, 14, but only partially. A more complete fulfillment follows.

Quote

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] His wheels [as] burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him (Daniel 7:8-13).

Daniel did not understand the vision. He asked someone within his vision to explain it to him. He explained it:

---

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

[2] ST, March 16, 1888 par. 9, ed

[3] http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/romans.html

[4] GC 479.3

[Gregory Matthews]

In the post above, HCH gives a citation to Dr. W. F. Albright.  That citation does not mention Dr. Albright, contrary to the inference of HCH.

HCH gave:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

Also, HCH tells us that the date for the Exodus varies by 100+ years among scholars.  Generally scholars vary a date for the Exodus by 200 to 300 years.   However, in actuality the range  extends up 600 years by scholars who are on the outer ends of the range.

In suggesting a date for the Exodus in the 1200s BCE, HCH is consistent with a more liberal interpretation of the Biblical story.

SDA scholars have often placed the Exodus about 1445 BCE, in contrast to the date HCH  suggests.

As I say there is considerable disagreement as to a possible date, for those who believe that it actually happened.  Absolute proof does not exist for any date.

 

[hch]

31 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

In the post above, HCH gives a citation to Dr. W. F. Albright.  That citation does not mention Dr. Albright, contrary to the inference of HCH.

HCH gave:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

 

Thank you for finding the reference that got changed. With Wiki getting edited as it does, some facts get downplayed  in later editions. I googled it and found other references to Albright and the 1200 BCE exodus. I'll look at some of my original notes and see the best reference to use. Thanks

But don't  take too much consolation from the changing data in an online reference the fact is that Albright has dated the Exodus as late as 1200 BC and that does not change.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, Albright has dated the Exodus as late at 1200, or so.  But, this is not a date held by conservative scholars.

Are you aware of the number of dates that Albright changed in the later years of his life as he moved from a more liberal view of scripture to a more conservative view of Scripture?  So, are you telling us that until the end of his life, Albright held to a date for the Exodus of about 1200, or so, BCE?

 

NOTE:  Do not conclude from the above that Albright totally abandoned his liberal views of scripture and became a conservative, even though he did move to a more conservative view in a number of areas.

The following is an interesting article on Albright that does NOT address the issue his view on the date of the Exodus.

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1973/02/quotations-from-prof.-w-f.-albrights-writings

 

 

[hch]

5 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Yes, Albright has dated the Exodus as late at 1200, or so.  But, this is not a date held by conservative scholars.

Are you aware of the number of dates that Albright changed in the later years of his life as he moved from a more liberal view of scripture to a more conservative view of Scripture?  So, are you telling us that until the end of his life, Albright held to a date for the Exodus of about 1200, or so, BCE?

 

NOTE:  Do not conclude from the above that Albright totally abandoned his liberal views of scripture and became a conservative, even though he did move to a more conservative view in a number of areas.

 

GM

I appreciate your point and your thoroughness on this issue.

As I reread my earlier reply, I see that it could come across as being short or even rude. For that I apologize. It was not my intent, nor I do want it to come across that way.

Albright's questioning the dating of the Exodus was essentially because of events described in the book of Joshua. Albright could not find archaeological evidence of the conquest that Joshua described that aligned with the historical timeframe that most archaeologists were dating the Exodus. In other words if the exodus was in 1445 BC and the Israelites toppled a specific city as they were expanding into the promised land, the excavation of the city's ruins should show that it was toppled at the time of the Exodus. But the archaeological dates uncovered in the excavations of the cities were not agreeing with the date that had been ascribed to the Exodus. 

One article that I read states that the modern archaeologists are generally going with the idea of a "late  exodus" except Evangelicals and you appear to be adding Adventists to that group? interesting bedfellows.

Based on you feedback, I'll reword my statement to be more clear and use a different reference.

Christian regards,

Hch

[hch]

30 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

So, are you telling us that until the end of his life, Albright held to a date for the Exodus of about 1200, or so, BCE?

No.

I am saying that Albright discovered the 1200 BC date at one point in his career. And if that date is off not by hundreds of years, but by as few as 20 years, a 1220 BC Exodus places the Egyptian Death Decree and Moses’ birth at 1260 BC. Thus, Moses would have been 80 years old when he led Israel from Egypt in 1220 BC, and the 7 heads/kingdoms on the dragon in Revelation 12 are: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Imperial Rome (aligning with Christ’s birth/ascension), and papal Rome that followed.

[Gregory Matthews]

I did not consider your response to me to be either rude or offensive.  No apology needed.

Yes, SDAs generally consider the Exodus to have occurred earlier than the 1200 date.

The evidence for any specific date is not conclusive.  No date can be stated to be certain.

But SDAs have generally considered a date of about 1445 BCE to be the best date.

[Gregory Matthews]

For those who have wondered as to the method that HCH and I have used at times:

BCE and BC are the same periods of time, simply stated differently by people.

CE and AD are also the same periods of time, simply stated differently by people.

 

[stinsonmarri]

6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

But SDAs have generally considered a date of about 1445 BCE to be the best date.

Pastor, I agree with the dating and more so what Exodus Chapter 1 and history that proves it. Ahmose I (Ancient Egyptian: jꜥḥ ms(j.w), Egyptological pronunciation Ahmose, sometimes written Amosis I  was a pharaoh and founder of the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This is the king that knew not Joseph and there is historical fact to prove this. Joseph lived during the time of the Hyksos.

While much is misunderstood, we know the Hyksos comprised a small group of West Asian individuals who ruled Northern Egypt, especially the Delta, during the Second Intermediate Period. The Hyksos; By Danielle Candelora; University of California, Los Angeles 

The true Egyptians took back their land and Moses name is actually an Egyptian name. Many of the Pharoah had part of their name mose or mosis just like Moses which make sense! The truth of the Bible proves history and dating!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

 

 

 

 

3

On 6/30/2019 at 11:30 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Stinsonmarri:  I did not intend to reprimand you.  I did not intend to cast aspersion on your mental abilities.  I did not intend to devalue you as a woman.  I did not intend to make any negative suggestion as to your racial background. If in any way, I did any of that, I apologize for doing so.  Such was not my intent.

Yes,  I did suggest that you do not understand some of the aspects of the issues that you write about.  I did so not because of any lack of mental ability on your part.  As you well know, I have given you material privately, that I thought would be helpful to you.  It was only out of respect for your mental abilities that I gave you that material.  I can assure you that if I had thought that you lacked mental ability, I would never have given you that material.

So, why do I say that at times I do not believe that you understand something, because of the manner in which you write as you communicate your thoughts.  You often write in a manner that leads me to think that you do not understand some aspect of the issue on which you are writing.

I respond in telling you that I do not believe that you understand because I do think that you have the mental ability to deal with it..  If I did not think that, I would ignore you.  The fact that I challenge you is evidence that I believe you have the mental abilities to deal with it.

 

  

 

Pastor: I appreciate the material that you gave me. However, I have a book similar to the material from my class in religion in college. I do not accept these men belief because they do not accept the Bible as divine. It just to them one of the world many religions that are base on tradition and myths. Our school of thought today is based on theology, hermeneutics' of the Bible scholars of the world. I do not agree with these Hellenistic thoughts, our ministers today have conformed just like the Pharisees in YAHSHUA'S day. My various religious classes, I pass because I needed the knowledge to show why I am in opposition to it. I will not accept the majority who make out that YAHWEH is like gods of the Grecian world. The fourth beast is the same beast in Rev Chapter 13, whose body was the leopard and that what this society follows completely today. Both our political and religious systems today is Hellenized with a touch of sophistication base on technology. Whatever the world say we follow, we just go to church on the Sabbath. We also accept certain things in EGW that we like the other she is put down. I accept all of her visions, and I know that she along with the pioneers brought some of their old thoughts into the SDA church. She wrote TM to straight some mistakes she had made but the minister like dure the time of Ezekiel will not listen. They put no difference between the Holy and the unholy and YAHWEH said things when HE had not Spoken!

Pastor Matthew, I think you are a very nice and kind person. Sometimes I truly don't think men realize how they say things that insult women. I do not feel that you are racial but bias in how you relate to female. Many SDA men feel that women should not be heard and it is a big problem in the Evangelical world. I love and truly respect you and I feel that more classes should be given so that men could appreciate our intellect and knowledge. I have never been a crowd-pleaser or a follower Pastor. If it doesn't make sense and being a historian it has to also evident must be given. The Bible does not need man's knowledge sir, its knowledge comes from on HIGH! THE HOLY SPIRIT does not need all of this religious explanation. It is a STILL SMALL VOICE that proves all things and holds on to those things which are true! I learn simply through THE HOLY SPIRIT, HE is my guide! Again, we are good sir and that is true. I will take a stand for truth against the majority sir!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

On 6/30/2019 at 11:30 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Stinsonmarri:  I did not intend to reprimand you.  I did not intend to cast aspersion on your mental abilities.  I did not intend to devalue you as a woman.  I did not intend to make any negative suggestion as to your racial background. If in any way, I did any of that, I apologize for doing so.  Such was not my intent.

Yes,  I did suggest that you do not understand some of the aspects of the issues that you write about.  I did so not because of any lack of mental ability on your part.  As you well know, I have given you material privately, that I thought would be helpful to you.  It was only out of respect for your mental abilities that I gave you that material.  I can assure you that if I had thought that you lacked mental ability, I would never have given you that material.

So, why do I say that at times I do not believe that you understand something, because of the manner in which you write as you communicate your thoughts.  You often write in a manner that leads me to think that you do not understand some aspect of the issue on which you are writing.

I respond in telling you that I do not believe that you understand because I do think that you have the mental ability to deal with it..  If I did not think that, I would ignore you.  The fact that I challenge you is evidence that I believe you have the mental abilities to deal with it.

 

  

 

 

Pastor: I appreciate the material that you gave me. However, I have a book similar to the material from my class in religion in college. I do not accept these men belief because they do not accept the Bible as divine. It just to them one of the world's many religions that are base on tradition and myths. Our school of thought today is based on theology, hermeneutics' of these Bible scholars of the world. I do not agree with these Hellenistic thoughts, our ministers today have conformed just like the Pharisees in YAHSHUA'S day. My various religious classes, I pass because I needed the knowledge to show why I am in opposition to it. I will not accept the majority who make out that YAHWEH is like "gods/theos," of the Grecian world. The fourth beast is the same beast in Rev Chapter 13, whose body was the leopard and that what this society follows completely today. Both our political and religious systems today is Hellenized with a touch of sophistication base on technology. Whatever the world say we follow, we just go to church on the Sabbath. We also accept certain things in EGW that we like the other is put down. I accept all of her visions, and I know that she along with the pioneers brought some of their old thoughts into the SDA church. She wrote TM to straighten out some mistakes she had made but the minister like during the time of Ezekiel will not listen. They put no difference between the Holy and the unholy and YAHWEH said things when HE had not Spoken!

 

Pastor Matthew, I think you are a very nice and kind person. Sometimes I truly don't think men realize how they say things that insult women. I do not feel that you are racial but bias in how you relate to female. Many SDA men feel that women should not be heard and it is a big problem in the Evangelical world. I love and truly respect you and I feel that more classes should be given so that men could appreciate our intellect and knowledge. I have never been a crowd-pleaser or a follower Pastor. If it doesn't make sense and being a historian it has to also evident must be given. The Bible does not need man's knowledge sir, its knowledge comes from on HIGH! THE HOLY SPIRIT does not need all of this religious explanation. It is a STILL SMALL VOICE that proves all things and holds on to those things which are true! I learn simply through THE HOLY SPIRIT, HE is my guide! Again, we are good sir and that is true. I will take a stand for truth against the majority sir!

 

Blessings!

[Gregory Matthews]

As  I am not certain as to what you said:  The book that I gave you was written by a   male (yes) who happens to believe that Bible was inspired by God.  It has been used by several denominations, who also believe that the Bible was inspired by God, in teaching students.

[hch]

I paused in the study to review the material that I have been sharing. This post from GM that I quote below did not get a response from me at the time, but it is so erroneous that it should have raised concern by someone.

On 6/4/2019 at 10:15 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

To subtract 457 from the 2300 figure to obtain a date of 1843 is a common mistake that is made by people who do not understand  the BC/AD dating system that we have today.  That actual data obtained by such is not 1843.  

Quote

 “Calculation of the time was so simple and plain that even the children could understand it. From the date of the decree of the king of Persia, found in Ezra 7, which was given in 457 before Christ, the 2300 years of Daniel 8:14 must terminate with 1843. Accordingly we looked to the end of this year for the coming of the Lord. We were sadly disappointed when the year entirely passed away and the Saviour had not come.  {LS80 185.2} 

 

On 6/4/2019 at 10:15 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Ignorance of the issue involved here can not be excused as a technical issue that should only be expected to be known by scholars.  This issue has been published so widely that we can expect that everyone who comments on this date would be aware of the issue and make the appropriate adjustment to the date obtained.

The actual date is 1844.

 

Ignorance was GM's choice of words not mine. The evidence published widely is man's opinion rather than the testimony of EGW.  In the post to which he was replying it was proved that 1843 and 1844 were both the ACTUAL DATES.

On 6/4/2019 at 8:36 AM, hch said:

Those faithful…ones, who could not understand why their Lord did not come, were not left in darkness. Again, they were led to their Bibles to search the prophetic periods... They saw that the prophetic periods reached to 1844, and that the same evidence they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time. --If the vision tarry, wait for it. --In their love for Jesus’ immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones.[3]

The same evidence that proved 1844 was the evidence that had proved 1843.

On 6/4/2019 at 8:36 AM, hch said:

The 2300 days were fulfilled twice in long time, i.e., the 2300 years ran concurrently from 457 BC to end in 1843 & 1844. They had a partial fulfillment when they ended the first time in 1843, and a more complete fulfillment, when they ended the second time in 1844: The final long-time fulfillment began and ended on the Day of Atonement.

Quote

The decree of Artaxerxes for the restoration of Jerusalem, which formed the starting-point for the period of the 2300 days, went into effect in the autumn of the year B. C. 457... Reckoning from the autumn of 457, the 2300 years terminate in the autumn of 1844.[5]

 

On 6/4/2019 at 10:15 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

The adjustment that is required to be made is due to the fact that there is not a "zero year" that exists between a BC and an AD date.

The adjustment that is required proves that 1843 was the date that began the TARRYING TIME and 1844 was the date that marked the end of the tarrying time. But the SDA tendency that GM is actually advocating is to focus on 1844 (perhaps that is because it downplays that the early pioneers got prophecy wrong twice). Anyone glancing at the facts would be tempted to make that assumption. But BOTH dates were right. The event was wrong. When the event was properly understood the tarrying time comes into focus.

The unfortunate consequence of ignoring and downplaying 1843 is to hide the fact that the 2300-year prophecy ended twice in long time (a day for a year). The 2300-years ended in 1843 when the tarrying time began. The 2300-years ended in 1844 when the tarrying time ended. And Christ stood for His people in 1844 when the 2300 years ended to confess their names before God and His angels.

Thus, the entire prophecy in 11th chapter of Daniel was fulfilled. It began with the three kings in Persia (11:2) that issued their decrees (Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes) and it ended 12:1 when Michael stood to confess His people in 1844. (remember that chapters and verses were not added by Daniel, but by "scholars" who came much later.) 

Because the 2300-year prophecy had a dual fulfillment (one start date with 2 end dates...1843 & 1844), the 2300 years were fulfilled twice as they ran concurrently. That powerful fact shows that Christ standing for His people in 1844 at the end of the 2300 years was a partial fulfillment of prophecy (Daniel 12:1), with a dual fulfillment indicated. In the future, Christ is to stand again when it is declared "It is done."

Quote

 The Lord has shown me in vision, that Jesus rose up, and shut the door, and entered the Holy of Holies, at the 7th month 1844; but Michael's standing up (Daniel 12:1) to deliver His people, is in the future.  {WLF 12.4}  

Quote

I saw...that Michael had not stood up, and that the time of trouble, such as never was, had not yet commenced. The nations are now getting angry, but when our High Priest has finished His work in the sanctuary, He will stand up, put on the garments of vengeance, and then the seven last plagues will be poured out.  {EW 36.1} 

It is unfortunate that GM continues to undermine a sound understanding of Bible prophecy. It is even more unfortunate that folks approve of his misrepresentations.

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, hch said:

It is unfortunate that GM continues to undermine a sound understanding of Bible prophecy. It is even more unfortunate that folks approve of his misrepresentations.

Is it really Gregory who is undermining a sound understanding of prophecy?  Is the pot calling the kettle black here?  Or are you saying that your understanding of prophecy is inerrant - which has been proven wrong many times?  Are you claiming that 99.9% of believers are in error because you are right and they are wrong?  Seems pretty vain and arrogant to me.

Do not judge; lest ye be judged.

[stinsonmarri]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Is it really Gregory who is undermining a sound understanding of prophecy?  Is the pot calling the kettle black here?  Or are you saying that your understanding of prophecy is inerrant - which has been proven wrong many times?  Are you claiming that 99.9% of believers are in error because you are right and they are wrong?  Seems pretty vain and arrogant to me.

Do not judge; lest ye be judged.

It truly appears that he knows more then the prophets who gave the visions. Even more so YAHWEH who showed them the visions. YAHSHUA would not know about the lunar/solar calendar HE created. HE would not know about the division of water in the earth and above the earth. HE wouldn't know that the water above the earth came pouring down and the water in the earth broke a loose that was gather in one place and call "seas."

You see YAHSHUA would not know that the earth was so full of water it move where it was originally placed to form ice. The ice, the and rocks and the water just so happen kept the earth from diseases from all the numerous dead tall intelligent wicked beings, animals on land and seas; also the creatures we call dinosaurs that YAHSHUA did not Speak and THE HOLY SPIRIT did not bring them forward. These abnormal creatures were produce by DNA splicing by flesh beings! The graveyard of death we cannot fathom but HCH knows right? Gen 1:7, 9,10,14

You see YAHWEH would not know the time the moon went around the earth was equal to the time that the earth went around the sun until after the flood. YAHWEH would not have given Moses and Ezekiel wisdom to know that YAHWEH'S original month which means moon, traveled around the earth before the flood every 30 days. So he not YAHWEH only left HCH before he was born to know more then the Millerites folks in the Movement that prove how GREAT YAHWEH IS! Nope all this time we do not know about the Investigated Judgement that fell exactly on the Day of Atonement YAHWEH'S HOLY Day not the Hebrews but THE MOST HIGH!  So no one is intelligent but HCH and we do not gain knowledge from others.  Yet he reads the Bible prophecies and only HCH can understand that even the prophets themselves cannot understand! WOW! We all learn from others, they have gifts of THE HOLY SPIRIT. However, HCH is the only one that receive all the gifts and no one else. Now someone is talking unwise don't you think? I leave it to others to make the choice; is one man greater than YAHWEH!

Blessings!

PS: I have truly learn from others including from all who I made contact with on this forum and I just want to say thank you!

[hch]

12 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Is it really Gregory who is undermining a sound understanding of prophecy?  Is the pot calling the kettle black here?  Or are you saying that your understanding of prophecy is inerrant - which has been proven wrong many times?  Are you claiming that 99.9% of believers are in error because you are right and they are wrong?  Seems pretty vain and arrogant to me.

Do not judge; lest ye be judged.

In the post that you chose to comment on, I showed Gregory his error in regards to  the 1843 and 1844 time prophecies to which GM had claimed that 1844 date is the "actual date." You took issue with my comment as if GM is correct.

I gave facts. In your reply, you gave hyperbole. Please show me my error by giving the facts .

If I am wrong prove it. If I am right you need to stand for the truth instead of belittling it.

[hch]

10 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

So no one is intelligent but HCH and we do not gain knowledge from others. 

Dear sister Marri,

The only reason that I post on this forum is to "reason together" as God invites us to reason with Him. Many counselors can keep us from error (if they are godly counselors).

When Jesus left the holy place in Heaven to enter the most holy place, the Spirit of prophecy states that Satan manifest himself in the place that Jesus had left (as if Satan sat in the Temple of God pretending to be God). Then Satan breathed his spirit upon those who thought that it was a manifestation from God that was inspiring them. 

Satan seeks to cast his shadow over truth so that the people who profess to believe in God will waste their precious hours of probation. They will realize too late that they had a life or death choice to make. A choice like that of Israel in the wilderness: Look upon the brazen serpent and live or... refuse to look and die. God sent them the cure, but many refused to listen and obey.

If I am so knowledgeable as you said in your offensive sarcastic post, you should listen.

Gideon had a great army, but God sent 20,000 home and kept 300 to deliver Israel. There are 20 million Adventists worldwide, but God is looking to set 144,000 apart for a special purpose. The wheat and tares will grow together until the harvest. 

Christian regards,

 

[hch]

Marri, JoeMo, et al,

If you missed this, it is worthy of consideration.

Quote

Yet while it was not given to the prophets to understand fully the things revealed to them, they earnestly sought to obtain all the light which God had been pleased to make manifest. They “inquired and searched diligently,” “searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify.” What a lesson to the people of God in the Christian age, for whose benefit these prophecies were given to His servants! “Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister.” Witness those holy men of God as they “inquired and searched diligently” concerning revelations given them for gener­ations that were yet unborn. Contrast their holy zeal with the listless unconcern with which the favored ones of later ages treat this gift of Heaven. What a rebuke to the ease-loving, world-loving indifference which is content to declare that the prophecies cannot be understood![1]

---

[1] GC 344.3

 

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, hch said:

If I am wrong prove it. If I am right you need to stand for the truth instead of belittling it.

I'm not belittling your commentary; I am belittling your judgement of a fellow member here.  If you don't wish to be personally criticized, don't personally criticize others.

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH, please provide your source for the following statement:

Quote

When Jesus left the holy place in Heaven to enter the most holy place, the Spirit of prophecy states that Satan manifest himself in the place that Jesus had left (as if Satan sat in the Temple of God pretending to be God). Then Satan breathed his spirit upon those who thought that it was a manifestation from God that was inspiring them.

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

HCH, please provide your source for the following statement:

How 'bout this one?

"I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne;  they did not know that Jesus had left it [the first apartment].  Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God.  I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, 'Father, give us Thy Spirit.'  Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace.  Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children." 

Early writings pg 56, top of page, describing her vision about the end of the 2300 Days, which description begins on page 54.  Brackets are mine.

"I saw that the nominal churches, as the Jews crucified JESUS, had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the move made in heaven, or of the way into the Most Holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of JESUS there.  Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which JESUS has left, and Satan, pleased with the deception of the professed followers of CHRIST, fastens them in his snare, and assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed christians to himself, and works with his power, his signs and lying wonders."  

Spiritual Gifts page 171-172

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K. Thank you.  I shall have to  give some study to it.

[stinsonmarri]

8 hours ago, hch said:

Marri, JoeMo, et al,

If you missed this, it is worthy of consideration.

---

[1] GC 344.3

 

 

 

I will say this again, EGW is not THE MOST HIGH! I accept her visions, why? Because they are in the Bible and they are in line with the Bible. You will not be save on the book GC, you will be save from what Thus say THE MOST HIGH! Did EGW make some good points sure but as she said herself TAKE THE BIBLE! She also said not to hold on to Error but she also said not come up with your own unrealistic fanatical beliefs also! YAHWEH IS INFALLIBLE she said as well, not her or any earthly being!

The prophet did what we all should do search the scriptures diligently and more in depth. The Bereans did and that is why Paul did not write them a letter! HCH you stood up against THE MOST HIGH and that is very serious! Plus you  was very disrespectful to Pastor Matthew for disagreeing with you. I respect Pastor Matthew and we have some differences but I will always know he is a man of integrity! We all can agree to disagree as long as we all respect one another. I am sorry HCH you have an I sydone that you know more then writers of the Bible. You use EGW to also suit your purpose and shoot her down in other ways. We ALL HAVE A MIND AND A RIGHT TO CHOOSE. Present your thoughts or views with proof and Biblical evidence then allow others to accept or reject them. Please don't base your presentation  on who you are but what you say and how you say with love, humility and respect!

Blessings!