Walter Veith

[stinsonmarri]

23 hours ago, GHansen said:

Stinson, The word "commandments" in the writings of John does not refer to the Decalogue.  the "commandments" in John's writings refer to the teachings of Christ. Throwing down a list of verses without understanding what those verses mean is a most unfortunate practice, one of which most of have been guilty. There is not a single verse in John's writings which connects the "commandments" with the Decalogue. 

46  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Notice that the words  Jesus spoke, he was commanded by the Father to speak. We will be judged by those words in the last day. The words are the teachings of Christ, commanded by the Father.  The words/teachings of Christ are what lead to everlasting life, not the Decalogue

GHasen: I want you to know that I truly love you. But, we must understand the Bible. This comes from the Biblehub.com

Englishman's Concordance ἐντολάς (entolas) — 18 Occurrences Matthew 19:17 N-AFP GRK: τήρησον τὰς ἐντολάς NAS: into life, keep the commandments. KJV: life, keep the commandments. INT: keep the commandments Mark 10:19 N-AFP GRK: τὰς ἐντολὰς οἶδας Μὴ NAS: You know the commandments, DO NOT MURDER, KJV: Thou knowest the commandments, Do not INT: The commandments you know not Luke 18:20 N-AFP GRK: τὰς ἐντολὰς οἶδας Μὴ NAS: You know the commandments, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, KJV: Thou knowest the commandments, Do not INT: The commandments you know not John 11:57 N-AFP GRK: οἱ Φαρισαῖοι ἐντολὰς ἵνα ἐάν NAS: had given orders that if KJV: had given a commandment, that, INT: the Pharisees a command that if John 14:15 N-AFP GRK: με τὰς ἐντολὰς τὰς ἐμὰς NAS: Me, you will keep My commandments. KJV: keep my commandments. INT: me commandments my John 14:21 N-AFP GRK: ἔχων τὰς ἐντολάς μου καὶ NAS: He who has My commandments and keeps KJV: my commandments, and INT: has the commandments of me and John 15:10 N-AFP GRK: ἐὰν τὰς ἐντολάς μου τηρήσητε NAS: you keep My commandments, you will abide KJV: my commandments, ye shall abide INT: If the commandments of me you keep John 15:10 N-AFP GRK: μου τὰς ἐντολὰς τετήρηκα καὶ NAS: My Father's commandments and abide KJV: my Father's commandments, and abide INT: of me the commandments have kept and Colossians 4:10 N-AFP GRK: οὗ ἐλάβετε ἐντολάς ἐὰν ἔλθῃ NAS: you received instructions; if KJV: ye received commandments: if INT: whom you received orders if he comes 1 John 2:3 N-AFP GRK: ἐὰν τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ τηρῶμεν NAS: Him, if we keep His commandments. KJV: we keep his commandments. INT: if the commandments of him we keep 1 John 2:4 N-AFP GRK: καὶ τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ μὴ NAS: Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, KJV: not his commandments, is a liar, INT: and the commandments of him not 1 John 3:22 N-AFP GRK: ὅτι τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ τηροῦμεν NAS: we keep His commandments and do KJV: we keep his commandments, and do INT: because the commandments of him we keep 1 John 3:24 N-AFP GRK: τηρῶν τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ ἐν NAS: The one who keeps His commandments abides KJV: his commandments dwelleth INT: keeps the commandments of him in 1 John 5:2 N-AFP GRK: καὶ τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ ποιῶμεν NAS: God and observe His commandments. KJV: keep his commandments. INT: and the commandments of him keep 1 John 5:3 N-AFP GRK: ἵνα τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ τηρῶμεν NAS: that we keep His commandments; and His commandments KJV: we keep his commandments: and his INT: that the commandments of him we should keep 2 John 1:6 N-AFP GRK: κατὰ τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ αὕτη NAS: according to His commandments. This KJV: after his commandments. This is INT: according to the commandments of him This Revelation 12:17 N-AFP GRK: τηρούντων τὰς ἐντολὰς τοῦ θεοῦ NAS: who keep the commandments of God KJV: keep the commandments of God, INT: keep the commandments of God Revelation 14:12 N-AFP GRK: τηροῦντες τὰς ἐντολὰς τοῦ θεοῦ NAS: who keep the commandments of God KJV: [are] they that keep the commandments of God, INT: keep the commandments of God Interlinear Greek • Interlinear Hebrew • Strong's Numbers • Englishman's Greek Concordance • Englishman's Hebrew Concordance • Parallel Texts Now, I want you to under that everyone wants to put YAHSHUA and THE FATHER also THE HOLY SPIRIT  as some trinity which the Bible does not state. The word one in Heb is "echad," and it is used for both the Adams as one: Gen 2:24  ThereforeH5921 H3651 shall a manH376 leaveH5800 (H853) his fatherH1 and his mother,H517 and shall cleaveH1692 unto his wife:H802 and they shall beH1961 oneH259 flesh.H1320nce  These two are not thought of as double or something together so why are THE THREE ALMIGHTIES in Heaven? YAHSHUA  and HIS FATHER worked together. He stated in John 8:56 before Abraham, HE WAS. Heb 1:1-3 states HE Created all the worlds. YAHSHUA stated HE do the will of HIS FATHER. John 5:30, 36, 37. No one has seen THE FACE of THE FATHER. You refuse to believe, that the word ELOHIYM is plural. aThe word EL in IsraEL, ELOAH has been used many times to identify that ONE of THEM was Speaking. It was YAHSHUA who wrote with HIS FINGER the Testimony so HE can also say They do testify of HIM. The Commandments are HIS and THE FATHER. That's the truth according to the Bible. No one can change the truth. Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

On 7/6/2021 at 10:03 PM, Gustave said:

 

This is a feeble logic chain Stinson.  

"Shabattum" in ancient Babylon only occasionally fell on what would be a Gregorian Saturday. How does this work out for your logic chain? 

 

 

 

It is not a logic chain and it makes no sense. Pope Gregory XIII was born Jan 7, 1502 – Apr 10, 1585. The Nations I gave you had many centuries. Babylon, if you notice in the Bible belongs to Nimrod. They new the Sabbath as well. It amazes me that Bible believers, will turn to the historian scholars, who do not believe in YAHWEH, They believe that HE was a Hebrew deity. Then those like you will used them to prove a point! You are not the only one, all the Bible scholars who do not want to accept the Sabbath of YAHWEH/YAHSHUA does this. You cannot have it both ways. Gen 2:1-3, there were no Hebrews and it stated very clear the same thing when THE ALMIGHTY ONES came down and YAHSHUA'S Spoke the Commandments then HE Wrote them with HIS FINGER! HE IS ELOAH like HIS FATHER! 

Blessings!

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

Stinson, Providing texts isolated from their context is what has led Adventism into a mess of confusion. That and the influence of EGW.  I generally try to not bite off more than I can chew when it comes to Bible study. That's why I primarily focus on the writings of John when trying to understand what the "commandments" in the NT are. Here a little and there a little. There is no passage in John's writings that connects the Decalogue to the commandments. If there is please reveal it to me. I am more than happy to learn from anyone who offers more than double talk and nonsense. Do show me one passage in John's writings which identify the commandments with the Decalogue. Matthew 19 has a passage like that. When the rich young ruler asked which commandments he must keep, Jesus plainly referred him to the Decalogue. No such passage in John's writings. John identifies the commandments as the words/teachings of Christ. Note that in the following passage "commandments," "words" and "sayings" are all used interchangeably. He who keeps the "commandments" loves Jesus. He who keeps the "saying/words" of Jesus loves Jesus. These words/sayings/commandments come from the Father. Can you see that in this one small passage, commandments/words/ sayings all  refer to the same thing?

21  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22  Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24  He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

 

[Theophilus]

Christ never said the 10 Commandments were done away with.  In fact, He expanded and deepened the meaning. Here's an example:

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt. 5:27,28

He also had to show how the Sabbath was to be kept. He showed what you can do, that the Sabbath can be a delight, and not a burden.

Nowhere does He say any of the 10 Commandments are done away with. He adds "New Commandments" which are not new at all.

Love the Lord thy God :

Deuteronomy 6:5
“And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.”

Love thy neighbor:

Leviticus 19:18 - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

 

Also, the first of the "New Commandments"  cover the first four of the Decalogue, and the second "New Commandment" covers the last 6.

 

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, Theophilus said:

Christ never said the 10 Commandments were done away with.  In fact, He expanded and deepened the meaning.

 

True, the 10 commandments were never done away with. They just became irrelevant because the will of God is now placed inside of us by the Holy Spirit. As David said, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [torah] is within my heart."  Let's not forget that the primary meaning of torah is "teaching."

[Theophilus]

How can you qualify that? They are not, and cannot be irrelevant because every sin committed by man falls under at least one of those.  The will of God is to love Him and keep His commandments. Whether written in stone, or on the heart, they are still in full force.

 

 

 

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, Theophilus said:

How can you qualify that? They are not, and cannot be irrelevant because every sin committed by man falls under at least one of those.  The will of God is to love Him and keep His commandments. Whether written in stone, or on the heart, they are still in full force.

 

 

 

Jesus said that the holy spirit will convict the world of sin because of their unbelief. John 16:9

John 8:24 says that the Jews will die in their sins because they don't believe.

John 6:47: He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 12:44-50: Those who don't believe the words of Christ will be judged by those words on the last day.

There is a huge difference between the condemnation of the words written in stone and the life of those written in the heart by the HS. If you want to live or try to live by adhering to an external code, good luck with that. All that code has the ability to do is to condemn you. Faith in Christ is the obedience required by the law.

[Gustave]

On 7/8/2021 at 6:55 PM, stinsonmarri said:

It is not a logic chain and it makes no sense. Pope Gregory XIII was born Jan 7, 1502 – Apr 10, 1585. The Nations I gave you had many centuries. Babylon, if you notice in the Bible belongs to Nimrod. They new the Sabbath as well. It amazes me that Bible believers, will turn to the historian scholars, who do not believe in YAHWEH, They believe that HE was a Hebrew deity. Then those like you will used them to prove a point! You are not the only one, all the Bible scholars who do not want to accept the Sabbath of YAHWEH/YAHSHUA does this. You cannot have it both ways. Gen 2:1-3, there were no Hebrews and it stated very clear the same thing when THE ALMIGHTY ONES came down and YAHSHUA'S Spoke the Commandments then HE Wrote them with HIS FINGER! HE IS ELOAH like HIS FATHER! 

Blessings!

Something tells me that your scholarship does not surpass that of Roland DE Vaux nor does it surpass Jewish Scholars, in speaking of their own religion, who agrees with Vaux. 

Abraham obeyed God's commandments and those commandments had nothing to do with the first ten God gave Israel through Moses. 

I've already spoken to your anti-Trinitarianism - if you want to shuffle down the same path as the SDA Pioneers that is certainly your right. You can gloat in the assurance that I nor any other Orthodox Christian will ever persecute you for your beliefs. 

[Theophilus]

10 hours ago, GHansen said:

Jesus said that the holy spirit will convict the world of sin because of their unbelief. John 16:9

John 8:24 says that the Jews will die in their sins because they don't believe.

John 6:47: He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 12:44-50: Those who don't believe the words of Christ will be judged by those words on the last day.

There is a huge difference between the condemnation of the words written in stone and the life of those written in the heart by the HS. If you want to live or try to live by adhering to an external code, good luck with that. All that code has the ability to do is to condemn you. Faith in Christ is the obedience required by the law.

Ok. the Holy Spirit convicts. Yes. Amen! What does He convict of? Sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. The Law is written in our hearts. It is also written in the Word.

So are you arguing that the written text of the law is invalid but the one written on the heart is not?Everyone in order to keep the Law truly must have the Spirit. That has not been argued against.

I am so not clear off the basis of your argument.

David also said "Thy Word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against Thee"Psalm 119:11.  David had it in his heart--how'd it get in there?

 

 

[GHansen]

45 minutes ago, Theophilus said:

Ok. the Holy Spirit convicts. Yes. Amen! What does He convict of? Sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. The Law is written in our hearts. It is also written in the Word.

So are you arguing that the written text of the law is invalid but the one written on the heart is not?Everyone in order to keep the Law truly must have the Spirit. That has not been argued against.

I am so not clear off the basis of your argument.

David also said "Thy Word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against Thee"Psalm 119:11.  David had it in his heart--how'd it get in there?

 

 

"Sin is the transgression of the law" is a rubbish translation. The word transgression is not there. The text simply says "Sin is lawlessness." In  the NT, sin is primarily unbelief, as the texts above quoted indicate. If you are justified in Christ, sin is not counted against you because of your faith in Christ. It doesn't matter what you do, if you are not connected to Jesus by faith, everything is sin. If you are connected, Jesus covers you. The only sin counted against you is the ongoing rebellion of refusing to accept him as Lord. When Paul describes the experience of Abraham in Romans 4, he says Abraham was strong in faith, that he believed God would perform what he had promised. He didn't mention that Abraham's faith had failed and he committed adultery with Hagar because God didn't count that against him as sin. If you want to live under an external code that only has power to condemn, you may as well enjoy yourself because everything you do is sin.    

[Theophilus]

Are you saying that you don't sin?

When we ask for forgiveness, of course Jesus forgives us. He then does a work within us--we become changed. We would no longer commit adultery, steal, covet, etc, and if we do, we can go to Christ and ask for forgiveness.

Where did David get that "external code" as you call it internalized? From the Lord through the Spirit.

 

Are you a Calvinist?

[GHansen]

36 minutes ago, Theophilus said:

Are you saying that you don't sin?

When we ask for forgiveness, of course Jesus forgives us. He then does a work within us--we become changed. We would no longer commit adultery, steal, covet, etc, and if we do, we can go to Christ and ask for forgiveness.

Where did David get that "external code" as you call it internalized? From the Lord through the Spirit.

 

Are you a Calvinist?

What gives you the idea that I said I don't sin?

[GHansen]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:35 AM, stinsonmarri said:

GHasen: I want you to know that I truly love you. But, we must understand the Bible. This comes from the Biblehub.com

Englishman's Concordance ἐντολάς (entolas) — 18 Occurrences Matthew 19:17 N-AFP GRK: τήρησον τὰς ἐντολάς NAS: into life, keep the commandments. KJV: life, keep the commandments. INT: keep the commandments Mark 10:19 N-AFP GRK: τὰς ἐντολὰς οἶδας Μὴ NAS: You know the commandments, DO NOT MURDER, KJV: Thou knowest the commandments, Do not INT: The commandments you know not Luke 18:20 N-AFP GRK: τὰς ἐντολὰς οἶδας Μὴ NAS: You know the commandments, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, KJV: Thou knowest the commandments, Do not INT: The commandments you know not

These passages connect the word "commandments" to the Decalogue. No such connections in John's writings

[Theophilus]

Can you give me some examples of what you feel is sin?

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, Theophilus said:

Can you give me some examples of what you feel is sin?

What would be the point of that? Whatsoever is not of faith is sin; all unrighteousness is sin. To not believe in Christ is sin, the major sin, which is why all the world lies in wickedness; to think you see when you don't is sin. 

[Theophilus]

The point would be that anything sinful you can think of is listed in the Decalogue. All of us, since we have accepted Christ have the law in our hearts--God said He would do that in the Old Testament

“I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”Jeremiah 31:33.

The fact that the Law is written in the heart does not take away from it being written down.

Did we ever figure out why David had the Law written in his heart? How'd he do that?

[stinsonmarri]

15 hours ago, Gustave said:

Abraham obeyed God's commandments and those commandments had nothing to do with the first ten God gave Israel through Moses. 

Based on what Gustave? You? No, neither me. You keep wanted to have your way, and it is not. Men who did not keep the Sabbath understood the truth. HE cannot be denied, just with Baalaim who was determined to go against the WILL of YAHWEH.  He couldn't even though he tried. Judgment came upon him and to all who will disobey the Commandments of THE FATHER'S, THE SON, and THE HOLY SPIRIT.  This is where THE THREE are ONE in THOUGHT, DEED, and THEIR CHARACTER!

The obedience of Abraham to the DIVINE Commandment was evidence of that faith, whereby, as a sinner, he was justified before God, and the effect of that love whereby true faith works. God testifies that he approved this obedience, to encourage others, especially Isaac. Because that Abraham obeyed MY VOICE and kept MY Charge, MY Commandment, MY Statutes, and My Laws. Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

He kept the Charge of God, the special commission HE had given him; HIS Commandments, HIS Express or occasional Orders; HIS Statutes, HIS Stated Prescriptions, graven on stone; HIS Laws, the great doctrines of moral obligation. This is that unreserved obedience that flows from a living faith and withstands the temptations of the flesh. Barnes' Notes on the Bible

MY Commandments, MY Statutes, and MY Laws; whether moral, ceremonial, or civil and judicial; all and everyone which God enjoined him, he was careful to observe. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

A strange redundancy of expression, reminding us of the style of Deut. The four words “Charge,” “Commandments,” shall love the Lord thy God, and keep HIS Charge, and HIS Statutes, and HIS Judgements, and HIS Commandments, always;” 1 Kings 2:3. Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

And keep the Instruction of YAHWEH your ELOHYIM, to walk in HIS WAYS, to keep HIS STATUTES, HIS COMMANDMENT, HIS ORDINANCES, and HIS TESTIMONIES, according to that which is written in the Torah *of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do, and wherever you turn yourself. 1Ki 2:3

These WORDS YAHWEH Spake unto all your assembly in the Mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with A GREAT VOICE: and HE, added no more. And HE WROTE them in two tables of stone and delivered them unto me. But as for thee, stand thou here by ME, and I Will Speak unto thee all the Commandments, and the Statutes, and the Judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. Deut 5:22; 31 

Charge H4931-mishmereth-Feminine of H4929; watch, that is, the act (custody) or (concretely) the sentry, the post; objectively preservation, or (concretely) safe; figuratively observance, that is, (abstractly) duty, or (objectively) a usage or party: - charge, keep, to be kept, office, ordinance, safeguard, ward, watch.

H2708-chûqqâh-Feminine of H2706, and meaning substantially the same: - appointed, custom, manner, ordinance, site, statute. H2706-chôq-From H2710; an enactment; hence an appointment; appointed, bound, commandment. H2710- châqaq-A primitive root; properly to hack, that is, engrave (Judge 5:14, to be a scribe simply).

* The prepositional word of is put in there and should have been by Moses. Moses, I will repeat, never made up any Laws period. YAHWEH gave to Moses all of the very same things HE Gave to Abraham. These Commentary writers knew even though they did not keep them all. As I stated you will never hear YAHWEH, or YAHSHUA calling them ten. It was understood by the Hebrews that the Torah included the first Commandments at Creation that were Spoken from the beginning and due to sin our original parents could not stay in their beautiful home. Neither could Lucifer and the fallen angels. They left their first estate and were place in prison. The only one to roam all over is Lucifer who became Satan! It is all there but, sad to say you refuse to believe. It is your choice and YAHWEH warns us of the consequence we make. To be obedient and live, disobedient and die. Simple!

Blessings!

[GHansen]

2 hours ago, Theophilus said:

The point would be that anything sinful you can think of is listed in the Decalogue. All of us, since we have accepted Christ have the law in our hearts--God said He would do that in the Old Testament

“I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”Jeremiah 31:33.

The fact that the Law is written in the heart does not take away from it being written down.

Did we ever figure out why David had the Law written in his heart? How'd he do that?

Since the law is in your heart, you are not trying to comply with an external code, what Paul refers to as "the letter." The law written in the heart is just another way of saying that God's spirit is in your heart. The story of the good Samaritan clearly reveals sin which is not revealed by the Decalogue. Which one of the Ten words did the priest and Levite break by ignoring the wounded man. They didn't violate the Decalogue by ignoring him. The rich young Ruler believed he was in good shape vis-a-vis the Decalogue, as did Paul prior to his Damascus road experience. There's nothing in the Decalogue which says we must believe in Jesus Christ or care for our fellow man beyond what is there required e.g., not steal, lie, etc.

 

[GHansen]

4 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Based on what Gustave? You? No, neither me. You keep wanted to have your way, and it is not. Men who did not keep the Sabbath understood the truth. HE cannot be denied, just with Baalaim who was determined to go against the WILL of YAHWEH.  He couldn't even though he tried. Judgment came upon him and to all who will disobey the Commandments of THE FATHER'S, THE SON, and THE HOLY SPIRIT.  This is where THE THREE are ONE in THOUGHT, DEED, and THEIR CHARACTER!

 

Blessings!

Stinson, I imagine that Gustave bases his remark upon the plain declarations of Scripture. Just what is it that you don't understand about the verses cited below? Why do you continue to insist upon something contrary to plain Scripture? The law was not given until Moses. 

Neh 9:12  Moreover thou hast led them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way in which they should go.
13  Thou didst come down also upon mount Sinai and speak with them from heaven, and didst give them right judgments and true laws, good statutes and commandments;
14  And thou didst make known to them thy holy sabbath and commandments and statutes and laws which thou commandedst by the hand of Moses thy servant;

Gal3:17  And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Rom 5: 13  For until the law was given, though sin was in the world, it was not considered sin, because there was no law.
14  Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them who had not sinned in the manner of the transgression of the law by Adam, who is the likeness of him that was to come (Lamsa).

[stinsonmarri]

1 hour ago, GHansen said:

Stinson, I imagine that Gustave bases his remark upon the plain declarations of Scripture. Just what is it that you don't understand about the verses cited below? Why do you continue to insist upon something contrary to plain Scripture? The law was not given until Moses. 

Neh 9:12  Moreover thou hast led them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way in which they should go.
13  Thou didst come down also upon mount Sinai and speak with them from heaven, and didst give them right judgments and true laws, good statutes and commandments;
14  And thou didst make known to them thy holy sabbath and commandments and statutes and laws which thou commandedst by the hand of Moses thy servant;

Gal3:17  And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Rom 5: 13  For until the law was given, though sin was in the world, it was not considered sin, because there was no law.
14  Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them who had not sinned in the manner of the transgression of the law by Adam, who is the likeness of him that was to come (Lamsa).

Unfortunately, that is the problem with those who refuse to see the simple truth. You refuse to believe that YAHSHUA was also THE CREATOR! HE made it clear HE was before Abraham. It was HE that visited Abraham:

 And YAHWEH appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; Gen 18:1

Jacob wrestles with ELOHIYM which was THE SON, even the title in the Bible cannot deny it:

Gen 32: 24-28

THIS was THE SON:
Behold, I am about to send A MESSENGER before you, to guard you in the way, and to bring you to the place which I have prepared.  Be on guard before HIM, and listen to HIS VOICE. Do not be rebellious against HIM, for HE will not forgive your transgressions; for MY NAME is in HIM. Ex 23:20, 21

THE SON:

And HE said to Moses, Come up to YAHWEH, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy from the elders of Israel. And bow yourselves from a distance. And Moses and Aaron went up with Nadab and Abihu, and seventy from the elders of IsraEL. And they saw THE ELOHIYM of IsraEL. And under HIS FEET was as the work of a pavement of sapphire, and as the Heavens for clearness. And HE did not stretch out HIS HAND to the nobles of the sons of IsraEL. And they saw ELOHIIYM, and they ate and drank. Ex 24:1, 9-11

It was THE SON in HIS FATHER'S NAME, that has always been but it is sad that you do not believe nor do you understand sin. You do not understand that THE FATHER  so loved the world that HE gave HIS SON that all would not perish. Because sin bring about death. Satan wants you to die. He wants you on his side to rebel against the truth. There would not be the killing of innocent lambs if there were no sin. Cain would not have killed his brother, if there was no sin. The Hebrews would not allow THE SON to be killed if there was no sin. You do not want to understand the truth about the Law of ELOHIYM and why HE gave a Law of sacrificing animals that pointed HIS  SON'S DEATH! We do not make void any of YAHWEH'S Law all are Commands, the one we called Moral to last forever, and the Sacrificial Law YAHWEH Spoke was to end. Those who refuse to see the difference is because they want to make an excuse. The Bible says you will live by the Law or you will die by what it says.

As I have said over and over understanding is the best thing in the world. Please, I plea listen to THE HOLY SPIRIT that you may have life and have it abundantly.

Blessings!

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, GHansen said:

Stinson, I imagine that Gustave bases his remark upon the plain declarations of Scripture. Just what is it that you don't understand about the verses cited below? Why do you continue to insist upon something contrary to plain Scripture? The law was not given until Moses. 

Neh 9:12  Moreover thou hast led them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way in which they should go.
13  Thou didst come down also upon mount Sinai and speak with them from heaven, and didst give them right judgments and true laws, good statutes and commandments;
14  And thou didst make known to them thy holy sabbath and commandments and statutes and laws which thou commandedst by the hand of Moses thy servant;

Gal3:17  And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Rom 5: 13  For until the law was given, though sin was in the world, it was not considered sin, because there was no law.
14  Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them who had not sinned in the manner of the transgression of the law by Adam, who is the likeness of him that was to come (Lamsa).

My guess is that she subscribes to "The Great Controversy Theme". I understand that not all SDA's do subscribe to that but a significant portion do. The theme posits that Lucifer made a type of legal charge against God (who is understood to be the Father only) after Adam and Eve were expelled from Paradise, basically that God's Holy Law (which included the Sabbath) was too difficult to follow. 

Lucifer promulgated this legal charge throughout the Universe to both angels and alien hominids living on various planets. God was now in a pickle and something had to be done. Michael the archangel steps forward and volunteers to come to earth in an attempt to vindicate God's Holy Law thereby proving it's not to difficult to follow. 

Again, not all SDA's follow this line of reasoning but many do - the belief by the SDA's that do believe it is that they know more about the context of how everything went wrong in heaven and Eden than you or I do because these "unknown" happenings were provided to Ellen White who in turn shared them with the SDA's. 

 

 

[GHansen]

10 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Unfortunately, that is the problem with those who refuse to see the simple truth. You refuse to believe that YAHSHUA was also THE CREATOR! HE made it clear HE was before Abraham. It was HE that visited Abraham:

 

Nehemiah and Paul plainly state that a legal system did not exist prior to Moses. How can you look at the verses cited and not recognize that is what they say?

Edited July 11, 2021 by GHansen
Clarity

[GHansen]

5 minutes ago, Gustave said:

My guess is that she subscribes to "The Great Controversy Theme". I understand that not all SDA's do subscribe to that but a significant portion do. The theme posits that Lucifer made a type of legal charge against God (who is understood to be the Father only) after Adam and Eve were expelled from Paradise, basically that God's Holy Law (which included the Sabbath) was too difficult to follow. 

Lucifer promulgated this legal charge throughout the Universe to both angels and alien hominids living on various planets. God was now in a pickle and something had to be done. Michael the archangel steps forward and volunteers to come to earth in an attempt to vindicate God's Holy Law thereby proving it's not to difficult to follow. 

Again, not all SDA's follow this line of reasoning but many do - the belief by the SDA's that do believe it is that they know more about the context of how everything went wrong in heaven and Eden than you or I do because these "unknown" happenings were provided to Ellen White who in turn shared them with the SDA's. 

 

 

Great tragedy for those who refuse to recognize what the Bible plainly states. If people would honestly say that they believe such and such because EGW said it was so, at least that provides a rationale, regardless of how misguided it is. EGW on pp 129, 130 of Patriarchs and Prophets completely misunderstands how faith in Christ is the main factor in salvation. What she says there is just wrong, a false spin on the message of salvation, emphasizing obedience to laws and commandments. EGW displays a gross ignorance of Scripture in her remarks. No wonder Adventists are considered a legalistic cult by many Evangelical Christians.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave, your understanding of the so-called Great Controversy Theme is partially correct, and partially in error. 

*  It is not related to Adam and Eve being kicked out of Eden in the manner that I think you understand it.

*  Rather it arose in heaven prior to the creation of the Earth and Adam and Eve.

*   It began with a charge of Satan (Lucifer) that if given the choice, God's created beings would follow Lucifer rather than God.  That resulted in 1/3 of the created angels choosing to follow Satan and leaving heaven.

*  In context it should be understood that SDAs generally believe that outside of this solar system there are other planets in the universe that have intelligent life.  It is also believed that none of that intelligent life participated in this rebellion against God.

*  It is also thought that Satan's charge against God included the idea that if given a fair chance, intelligent life created by God on a planet would choose to follow Satan.

*  So, in the creation of intelligent life on Earth, after 1/3 of the angels had left heaven, Satan was given access to Adam and Eve at the so-called tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 

*  There at that tree, Eve decided that if she could become like God (Genesis 3:5) she would disobey God and follow the leading of Satan.  In effect, she wanted to create her own world.  

* Eve than discussed this with Adam (Genesis 3:6) who agreed with Eve.  With that agreement, Adam and Eve were given the opportunity to create their own world outside of Eden.

*  As a result, the world in which you and I live today is a consequence of the final decision of Adam to join Eve in attempting to act as God in creating their own world and in that process to follow the leading of Lucifer.

NOTE:  It should be noted that the expanded view that I have stated goes well beyond the clear teaching of the Bible.  The Biblical support for what I have stated in minimal.  It is a little bit more than I have referenced, but not much more.   Due to its minimal support in the Bible, SDA members are not required to believe it.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave, you reference Patriarchs and Prophets pages 129 & 130.  I have read those two pages and I do not understand your comment.