A Postmodern Church

[Gregory Matthews]

For thoughts on church in a postmodern world see:

The World Has Changed. So Must the Message | Adventist Today (atoday.org)

 

[phkrause]

An interesting article! But I'm not sure I agree with the notion that we need to change the message!! Maybe the way we bring it to people, at least at this time!!

[GHansen]

The International Church of Christ, a break away from SDA's traditional enemies, the Campbellites [Church of Christ], had a "postmodern" church 30 years ago in the Los Angeles area. They were denounced as a dangerous cult by many; nevertheless, they attracted thousands of young people in Southern California. They owned no church buildings; instead, they rented facilities at different locations. One week the meeting might be in the Wiltern theater, another week in a park or conference rooms of a hotel. They also owned a night club in Hollywood. Young people from different areas could meet and mingle there, engaging in wholesome fellowship.

They mainly practiced friendship evangelism i.e., friends telling friends about what Christ had done for them, then bringing them to church. The caliber of the people attracted to church was impressive.  Medical students, lawyers, a former navy pilot, students from Cal Tech attended and joined the church. Young people were not concerned about the mark of the beast, the state of the dead or the Sabbath. They were interested in finding a life partner and establishing a happy home. That's what the ICOC offered them.

[Gustave]

5 hours ago, GHansen said:

The International Church of Christ, a break away from SDA's traditional enemies, the Campbellites [Church of Christ], had a "postmodern" church 30 years ago in the Los Angeles area. They were denounced as a dangerous cult by many; nevertheless, they attracted thousands of young people in Southern California. They owned no church buildings; instead, they rented facilities at different locations. One week the meeting might be in the Wiltern theater, another week in a park or conference rooms of a hotel. They also owned a night club in Hollywood. Young people from different areas could meet and mingle there, engaging in wholesome fellowship.

They mainly practiced friendship evangelism i.e., friends telling friends about what Christ had done for them, then bringing them to church. The caliber of the people attracted to church was impressive.  Medical students, lawyers, a former navy pilot, students from Cal Tech attended and joined the church. Young people were not concerned about the mark of the beast, the state of the dead or the Sabbath. They were interested in finding a life partner and establishing a happy home. That's what the ICOC offered them.

 

Somehow this group has slipped my attention. What did they do or not do to be enemies of SDA's? What does Duck Dynasty have if anything to do with them? 

[GHansen]

Not sure of all the details but the ICOC, headed by Kip McKean, kind of fell apart when his daughter left the church. There's a lot of trash on the internet about them. Here's one of the articles by Kip himself. I read it back in the early 90s:

Restoration Through Revolution - Abidjan International Christian Church (abidjanicc.org)

It was a great church for a while. Many young people were richly blessed. Not sure what they have to do with Duck Dynasty, if anything. Early SDA  frequently debated Campbellites over the law. Campbellites also tried to warn the Millerites about their mistaken views regarding the coming of Christ. In more recent times, Des Ford distinguished himself in Australia debating a Campbellite minister. Campbellites are known now days as Church of Christ.

[pierrepaul]

Some of the message ought to change (IMO). 170 years ago the early Adventists taught that the 1755 Lisbon earthquake, the 1780 local forest fire in the North American NE and the 1833 meteor shower were events of cosmic significance. Since then we now know that such "dark days", while rare, have occurred in various places throughout the world as a result of wildfires or volcanic eruptions - there was nothing special about 1780. We also know that while the Lisbon earthquake was big, it wasn't the biggest and there was no cosmic meaning to that earthquake. We also know that the meteor shower, while impressive, was a regular recurring event. We also know that the "end" didn't happen at any time between 1844 and 2021, and that latching on to every single event as a "sign of the end" made SDAs look like the boy who cried wolf. In 2021 preaching an "end time" message that relies on 19th century anti-Catholic tropes and which focuses on political events in the US and Western Europe to the exclusion of the rest of the world is wrong. It's not just that this sort of message is not effective - this sort of message simply isn't true.

[GHansen]

7 hours ago, pierrepaul said:

In 2021 preaching an "end time" message that relies on 19th century anti-Catholic tropes and which focuses on political events in the US and Western Europe to the exclusion of the rest of the world is wrong.

"Anti Catholic tropes" were not the product of 19th century American bigotry. The Papacy was firmly and clearly identified as an antiChristian persecuting  power during the Reformation, hundreds of years before. D'Aubigne and Wylie both published extensive Reformation histories in the 19th century. They narrated in shocking detail the campaign Rome carried on against, not only the Word of God but individual rights to believe, think, and express personal matters of faith. In the Netherlands alone, ~50,000 "Protestants" were killed over matters of faith, according to D'Aubigne.

D'Aubigne distinguished Catholicism from popery, believing popery to be the enemy of humanity:

"I think we should carefully
distinguish between Catholicism and Popery. The latter, in my opinion, is an erroneous and destructive
system; but I am far from confounding it with Catholicism. How many worthy men, how many true
Christians, has not the catholic church contained within its bosom! What important services were
rendered by Catholicism to the existing states of Europe, at the moment of their formation — at a
period when it was still deeply impregnated with the Gospel, and when Popery was as yet only
hovering over it like a faint shadow! But we live no longer in those days. Strenuous endeavors are now
making to reunite Catholicism with Popery; and if catholic and Christian truths are put forward, they are
merely to serve as baits to draw us into the nets of the hierarchy. We have nothing, then, to hope for on
that side. Has Popery renounced one of its observances, of its doctrines, or of its assumptions? Will that
religion which was insupportable in former times be less so in ours?"

Preface to History of the Reformation, 1835

[phkrause]

14 hours ago, GHansen said:

"Anti Catholic tropes" were not the product of 19th century American bigotry. The Papacy was firmly and clearly identified as an antiChristian persecuting  power during the Reformation, hundreds of years before. D'Aubigne and Wylie both published extensive Reformation histories in the 19th century. They narrated in shocking detail the campaign Rome carried on against, not only the Word of God but individual rights to believe, think, and express personal matters of faith. In the Netherlands alone, ~50,000 "Protestants" were killed over matters of faith, according to D'Aubigne.

D'Aubigne distinguished Catholicism from popery, believing popery to be the enemy of humanity:

"I think we should carefully
distinguish between Catholicism and Popery. The latter, in my opinion, is an erroneous and destructive
system; but I am far from confounding it with Catholicism. How many worthy men, how many true
Christians, has not the catholic church contained within its bosom! What important services were
rendered by Catholicism to the existing states of Europe, at the moment of their formation — at a
period when it was still deeply impregnated with the Gospel, and when Popery was as yet only
hovering over it like a faint shadow! But we live no longer in those days. Strenuous endeavors are now
making to reunite Catholicism with Popery; and if catholic and Christian truths are put forward, they are
merely to serve as baits to draw us into the nets of the hierarchy. We have nothing, then, to hope for on
that side. Has Popery renounced one of its observances, of its doctrines, or of its assumptions? Will that
religion which was insupportable in former times be less so in ours?"

Preface to History of the Reformation, 1835

That GH is the first time I actually agree with almost everything you posted above!! Only thing I disagree with is this statement:

 

14 hours ago, GHansen said:

"Anti Catholic tropes"

Never have I heard a anti-catholic statement from the pulpit or any Evangelist against the Catholic Church!! Now unfortunately I have heard individual members saying sad things about Catholics!! That is unacceptable to me!!

[pierrepaul]

14 hours ago, GHansen said:

"I think we should carefully
distinguish between Catholicism and Popery.

I would agree. But this sort of "popery" hasn't existed for a couple centuries and never will again. Trying to equate the present day papacy with the evils of the medieval and Renaissance popes would be like blaming the present day Spanish government for the imperialism of the 16th century Spanish monarchy.

[GHansen]

You don't know that. Today is not the future. Rome plays a long game.

 

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, pierrepaul said:

 

 

1 hour ago, pierrepaul said:

 

 

[pierrepaul]

On 9/3/2021 at 3:32 PM, GHansen said:

Rome plays a long game.

 

You don't know that. So far everything done by "Rome" in the last 50-70 years has been driven by very short-term thinking, as they are reeling from the loss of money, followers and influence, down to today's state where they are all but irrelevant.

[GHansen]

8 hours ago, pierrepaul said:

You don't know that.

OK, Neither of us knows what we are talking about.

 

[GHansen]

The ICOC allowed their members to baptize individuals that they "discipled" into church membership. If a member made a friend, shared the gospel, invited them to church, etc. that member would ultimately baptize that individual. The ICOC's  soulwinning approach practiced an economy of time. People who resisted, wanted to argue, didn't agree were simply cast aside. The view was that there are so many people eager for what the church was offering, it was unwise to spend time with people who did not accept the gospel as taught by the ICOC. If a person becomes argumentative, simply find another person who isn't argumentative

Because the church had no actual building but moved to different rented places each week, if you were not connected to members through friendship, you wouldn't know where to find the meeting. They were not interested in tourists, sightseers and so forth. They wanted "sold out" disciples. Previous baptisms were invalid.

The ICOC tailored its message to the needs of contemporary young people. There was a huge emphasis on chastity before marriage. Unmarried people were expected to live with other same gender people. Dating in groups was encouraged but unmarried couples were not to be alone together prior to marriage. Strict accountability and counselling was obligatory. The young people didn't object. They wanted a marriage blessed by God and the ICOC said this was the way to achieve it.

Few cared about the Sabbath, the state of the dead, the beasts of Daniel or the mark of the beast. What young people wanted was a blessed marriage and happy family. ICOC offered that. In a world of homosexuality, divorce, multiple marriages, fatherless children and illegitimacy, ICOC offered a Christian home.