Will Religious Org. Be Required To Force Employees To Receive Vaccine

[bonnie]

52 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

As I have said over and over to you Bonnie, my concern is on spreading the Gospel. Spreading it with love, letting all who want salvation is to be obedient to the law of the land. As long it does not interference with YAHWEH'S Law and the Testimony of YAHSHUA. Many have thought that the Sabbath would be the problem for these last days. It isn't! The Bible said those who will not keep the Commandments, one is to love thy neighbor as yourself. If you cannot keep or have a problem with man's law that want all to be well; you will have a problem with HIS!

Blessings and I pray for all and please pray for me!

Well some of what you call the gospel is a stretch. Nothing but nothing says or indicates those that make what they feel is a informed decision on covid vaccination is breaking the commandments. Your tunnel vision is for you to have.  There are many reports and problems popping up, enough to make many take a second look. There are also positives  Whatever their decision  their salvation is not for you to determine

[GHansen]

7 hours ago, bonnie said:

Brian C. Joondeph is a physician and writer.

I wonder about vaccine efficacy. As mentioned, AIDS  took ~ 15 years to develop an effective treatment. Still no vaccine I've heard of. Covid developed a vaccine in ~ 1 year. I wouldn't expect that Covid vaccine is as efficacious as others that were years in development. Depends on the virus. Cold and flu shots are not 100% effective, other vaccines must be more effective. Anyway, I only took one micro class and our teacher told us we were dumber than other classes. Better find a physician whose view you agree with and take his/her advice.

[bonnie]

Making a decision as to the safety of a vaccine is not an issue that will determine my salvation. Most of my immediate family opted for the vaccine in spite of possible risks. Not because we considered it fool proof or our christian duty.  Those that opted not to get it are neither selfish or breaking commandments as much as stinsonmarri would like everyone to believe about those that don't bow to her wishes. I did speak with our GP ,I also researched as many articles as I could find. My husbands health is fragile enough I don't make rash decisions about unknowns. Dealing with a couple of chronic illnesses in our family the CDC is not high on my list for accuracy. One is finally recognized as a chronic illness, the other is "all in the heads of those suffering" and the less than accurate media and administration the confusion will continue and those afflicted will look for alternatives

 

[Gregory Matthews]

At the beginning of this thread Bonnie askrd a question about SDA employees being required to take the COVID vaccine.  I consider her question to be a valid question and it is of interest to me.  I am asking people I know the same question.  This is the response that I am getting:

*  SDA denominational leaders are waiting to see how local governmental authorities formulate a response to the directive of President Biden.  IOW, this thinking is that President Biden does not directly tell them what to do.  It is the local government that tells them what to do.

*  Once SDA denominational leaders have advice (directive) from the local governmental authorities, it will be vetted as to whether or not it is legally binding on the Church.  In addition, ethical considerations will be considered to include our responsibility to people at large.

*  Within the context of the above, denominational leaders will formulate a local policy that will apply to their congregations and employees.

 

[Gustave]

I personally know of two people who died because of the vaccine, they were unfortunately in the minority of folks who for whatever reason didn't process it like the majority of folks do.  I'm vaccinated myself as is my Wife and Son so I'm not an anti vaccine person. 

That said Covid has been greatly exaggerated with many people who died from something else being blamed on Covid. There should be a readily available test to see if someone has already had Covid and this test should have been one of the 1st things done. 

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

I personally know of two people who died because of the vaccine,

Any idea how or why they died "because of the vaccine?" Did they have an allergic reaction such as anaphylaxis or Stevens-Johnson syndrome? What kind of shape were they in before getting vaccinated i.e., frail/asthmatics/diabetics/obese?

Were they apparently healthy people who just suddenly died after getting vaccinated?

Condolences to those who survive them.

[stinsonmarri]

18 hours ago, bonnie said:

Those that did the right thing for their neighbor and were vaccinated will have eternal life. I am sure they will be happy to hear that. Those that didn't get the everlasting fire?  

You are way out of your league to make this judgement call that none of us can make

You make judgment when you do not try to understand. I was not saying I can save anyone. But, I can give them salvation which is  THE MESSIAH! The Gospel I want to give says:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of YAHSHUA THE MESSIAH for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of THE HOLY SPIRIT. Act 2:38  

I believe in the vaccine and we should encourage out of love to others to take it, to fight off the disease. We do not have to argue but speak in love. If the law of the land is like what's in the Commandments, then I will obey and kindly show others about loving their neighbors. Public health for all is a good thing!

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. 3John 1:2  

This is my message, the Gospel!

Blessing and pray for me as I pray for all!

[stinsonmarri]

19 hours ago, bonnie said:

Well some of what you call the gospel is a stretch. Nothing but nothing says or indicates those that make what they feel is a informed decision on covid vaccination is breaking the commandments. Your tunnel vision is for you to have.  There are many reports and problems popping up, enough to make many take a second look. There are also positives  Whatever their decision  their salvation is not for you to determine

Neither is is for you to make the determination you make! What you see is negativeness, I don't. I see love and encouragement and to do what the Bible says. That is to love those who are against me for my reward is not here, my reward is Heaven and the Earth made New. I know that we are in the time of sorrow, but I can give them hope in YAHSHUA!

I am so bless, I have a good job and I encourage people with love. They appreciate my encouragement. I also have the best people I work with, and they live all over this country. We give greetings of love when we start working until when we end. YAHSHUA gave me this special job and I talk about HIM every chance I get!

Blessings, pray for me as I pray for you all!

[stinsonmarri]

6 hours ago, Gustave said:

I personally know of two people who died because of the vaccine, they were unfortunately in the minority of folks who for whatever reason didn't process it like the majority of folks do.  I'm vaccinated myself as is my Wife and Son so I'm not an anti vaccine person. 

That said Covid has been greatly exaggerated with many people who died from something else being blamed on Covid. There should be a readily available test to see if someone has already had Covid and this test should have been one of the 1st things done. 

Do you know that for a fact. Do you have proof. Some people have allergic reaction to drugs, pill, or medicine. I took Emprine 3 did not know it was Codeine. I almost died! I am allergic to a lot of antibiotics. Finally, what vaccine did they take?  I personally do not recommend Johnson and Johnson to anyone! Did these people other known problems and did not talk to their doctor because they should have. My point we just make this kind of statement without proof. Not to offend!

Blessings, pray for me as I pray for all!

[bonnie]

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

You make judgment when you do not try to understand. I was not saying I can save anyone. But, I can give them salvation which is  THE MESSIAH! The Gospel I want to give says:

No, you cannot give anyone salvation.  Nowhere in the gospel does it say, Take this vaccine or you are turning your back on truth or being selfish  . 

I standing for truth, peace and salvation for all who wants it! I do! 

Yes of course, as long as it is your way. You are incapable of giving those that don't follow your belief in this vaccine any credit for coming to that conclusion after researching it and listening to less than honest reporting and deciding they are at least as qualified as you to  refuse

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of YAHSHUA THE MESSIAH for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of THE HOLY SPIRIT. Act 2:38  

Off in left field again. Refusing the vaccine is not something that needs repenting

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I believe in the vaccine and we should encourage out of love to others to take it, to fight off the disease. We do not have to argue but speak in love. If the law of the land is like what's in the Commandments, then I will obey and kindly show others about loving their neighbors. Public health for all is a good thing!

Good for you. I nor anyone else is required to believe in it because you do. You do not have the medical knowledge to encourage anyone to take the vaccine. Encourage them to make the best informed decision for their family ,not  stinsonmarri"s exalted opiniion. In the scheme of things who gives a fig what you or I think concerning the safety of the vaccine.

Health for all would be a great thing, health for all complements of stinsonmarri lacks a lot

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. 3John 1:2  

This is my message, the Gospel!

As long as it is your way

 

 

[bonnie]

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Neither is is for you to make the determination you make! What you see is negativeness, I don't. I see love and encouragement and to do what the Bible says

Yes it is. It is my responsibility to educate myself as much as possible and come to a  decision based on that. Your opinion or warnings about the everlasting lake of fire is irrelevant . If that is being negative to you no problem. Bible simply doesnt say what you are trying to make it say.

 

. That is to love those who are against me for my reward is not here, my reward is Heaven and the Earth made New. I know that we are in the time of sorrow, but I can give them hope in YAHSHUA!

Playing the victim all the time 

Never occurs to you that people can disagree with you, they can come to other than decisions simply because they disagree?

 

 

 job and I encourage people with love. They appreciate my encouragement. I also have the best people I work with, and they live all over this country. We give greetings of love when we start working until when we end. YAHSHUA gave me this special job and I talk about HIM every chance I get!

Can I assume you also talk about the everlasting lake of fire  and turning their backs on the commandments if they refuse the vaccine?

 

[bonnie]

stinsonmarri,

Just maybe you can get off what appears to be your exalted position long enough to understand their are others as smart or smarter than you, some  christian some not. All just as capable or more so than you to make a educated, informed decision. They read ,listen to the less than honest reports, the honest reports ,talk to their DR and then decide. They are not less christian than you because they don't follow your wishes. I have close family members that have made a decision against it.  They are christian enough they don't warn others about the everlasting lake of fire and accuse them of turning their backs on the commandments

[stinsonmarri]

42 minutes ago, bonnie said:

No, you cannot give anyone salvation.  Nowhere in the gospel does it say, Take this vaccine or you are turning your back on truth or being selfish  . 

I standing for truth, peace and salvation for all who wants it! I do! 

Yes of course, as long as it is your way. You are incapable of giving those that don't follow your belief in this vaccine any credit for coming to that conclusion after researching it and listening to less than honest reporting and deciding they are at least as qualified as you to  refuse

 

 

 

 

Off in left field again. Refusing the vaccine is not something that needs repenting

Good for you. I nor anyone else is required to believe in it because you do. You do not have the medical knowledge to encourage anyone to take the vaccine. Encourage them to make the best informed decision for their family ,not  stinsonmarri"s exalted opiniion. In the scheme of things who gives a fig what you or I think concerning the safety of the vaccine.

Health for all would be a great thing, health for all complements of stinsonmarri lacks a lot

 

You still do not get it! You, sadly, want to make everything about the vaccine and I don't. It is about people's health, everyone. If people do not feel that they want follow the law then their job or the restaurant or any business has the right to tell then "no!" That is why the bakery had a right to tell the people who were gay base his belief and this was his business he turn them down. We can discriminates. Their are public things that affects everyone's life and then private thing that only affects the individual.

For some reason you refuse to see this and your are judgmental with it as well. I do not want to be around a person or people who can endanger my life. Do, I mistreat them no I do not. However, I feel it is justified that laws has to be made to govern. That's exactly what the problem was in Heaven. Satan wanted things his way and did want to accept the mandates that govern Heaven. He had to leave. People today do not want to live sociable they want their way regardless of the common good for all. That is not caring and loving your neighbor as yourself.

I believe we are coming to the end of this world because of this and other problem people refuse to see. I am standing on the principle of love and truth!

Blessings, please pray for me as I pray for you all!

[bonnie]

13 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

You still do not get it! You, sadly, want to make everything about the vaccine and I don't. It is about people's health, everyone. If peeveryones head.ople do not feel that they want follow the law then their job or the restaurant or any business has the right to tell then "no!"

 

News flash, it is about the vaccine. I don't really care what you want to make getting the vaccine about. I think there is plenty of space to  condemn those that don't get the vaccine and hold the everlasting lake of fire over on your own thread.   This was a question involving mandatory vaccine compliance.  This was pretty much across the board  considered unconstitutional for Biden to issue a mandate .  Those a lot more educated than you do not believe he has the constitutional right. That doesn't really stop him.  I was curious where our denomination stood on this

 

 

That is why the bakery had a right to tell the people who were gay base his belief and this was his business he turn them down. We can discriminates. Their are public things that affects everyone's life and then private thing that only affects the individual.

If you notice that wasn't being questioned.  Yes there are things that can affect the individual. Many things can, you seem to want a mandate on them. This is far from a sure thing 

For some reason you refuse to see this and your are judgment. al with it as well. I do not want to be around a person or people who can endanger my life.

Really, wear a mask, maybe two, be vaccinated, wash hands, social distance and there you go, How many do you think or will you come in contact with that has had contact with the thousands that Biden has pretty much welcomed across the border. No vaccines there. Biden isnt nearly as concerned as you. They have been spread  throughout the US . Congress and staff can spread at will, no problem

 

Do, I mistreat them no I do not. However, I feel it is justified that laws has to be made to govern. That's exactly what the problem was in Heaven. Satan wanted things his way and did want to accept the mandates that govern Heaven. He had to leave.

Hate to break it to you,  Biden's mandate, that is likely unconstitutional ,is not on par with "heavenly mandates"

 

13 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

People today do not want to live sociable they want their way regardless of the common good for all. That is not caring and loving your neighbor as yourself.

This really is again off in your own left field. I know you have this exalted opinion of your belief in the vaccine but those that don't share your belief  isn't just to have their own way.

Some people are so full of themselves if they bend over it will run out

 

13 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

I believe we are coming to the end of this world because of this and other problem people refuse to see. I am standing on the principle of love and truth!

If that is the case maybe a close look at unconstitutional mandates is in order

 

[stinsonmarri]

2 hours ago, bonnie said:

This really is again off in your own left field. I know you have this exalted opinion of your belief in the vaccine but those that don't share your belief  isn't just to have their own way.

Some people are so full of themselves if they bend over it will run out

You know Bonnie, I see nothing kind, loving, or about getting the Gospel out means anything to you. It's an argument of discord. I will just provide peace and love for YAHSHUA and HIS SAVING GRACE! I will love my neighbors as the Commandments say. I will agree with Public Health. Those that don't will come under the law of the land. I pray for the coming of YAHSHUA! 

[bonnie]

2 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

You know Bonnie, I see nothing kind, loving, or about getting the Gospel out means anything to you. It's an argument of discord. I will just provide peace and love for YAHSHUA and HIS SAVING GRACE! I will love my neighbors as the Commandments say. I will agree with Public Health. Those that don't will come under the law of the land. I pray for the coming of YAHSHUA! 

Again not everything needs to be seen or said to please you or what you want to see.  No you do not provide peace and love, you provide judgement of those that disagree with you

 The breaking of the commandments,everlasting lake of fire,selfish etc is not providing anything but condemnation of that evil selfish group that refuses vaccination. Most people have a tendency to reject your so called love. Not every question or statement made on this forum requires your lengthy history lessons or sermons of hellfire and brimstone. It was a pretty straight forward question.

[bonnie]

Many a lot more educated than you have stated it is unconstitutional. Biden stated earlier that mandates were not a consideration. In his usual "honest" fashion of course that has changed. I was curious as to what our denomination would do. If for now the fines would hold it would be devastating to the denomination if they did not force the issue. If they hold with the educated wisdom of so many that it isnt lawful, would they stand their ground. If they wouldnt stand firm where would they draw the line. Biden does pretty much as he pleases so shall be interesting.  With so many SDA cheering almost as they trample the constitution I am not sure  it would be a big surprise for them to tajw path of least resistence

[B/W Photodude]

14 hours ago, Gustave said:

I personally know of two people who died because of the vaccine,

Tens of millions of people have been vaccinated. A few have died. But guess what. In the normal course of things, among tens of millions of people, many will be dying anyway.

14 hours ago, Gustave said:

That said Covid has been greatly exaggerated with many people who died from something else being blamed on Covid. 

Now you are getting it. Dying at approximately the same time as you get the vaccine does not mean the vaccine did it! Anyone notice that a ton of others reasons to die have disappeared. Anyone getting the flu anymore? Heart disease? Anyone dying in car accidents? I say that because some have died related to a MVA and the hospital asked them for permission to list the cause of death as Covid! And offered them cash to do it!

[Gustave]

13 hours ago, GHansen said:

Any idea how or why they died "because of the vaccine?" Did they have an allergic reaction such as anaphylaxis or Stevens-Johnson syndrome? What kind of shape were they in before getting vaccinated i.e., frail/asthmatics/diabetics/obese?

Were they apparently healthy people who just suddenly died after getting vaccinated?

Condolences to those who survive them.

Both cases were heart attacks, neither person had heart disease. One dropped in a home improvement store parking lot with zero indication anything was wrong 2 days after he got the shot. The other person 24 hours after he got the shot got so sick his wife drove him to the hospital to the er - he was admitted and in less than 24 hours he was dead (heart attack) while still in the hospital. 

I'd count a 3rd guy I worked with who got the shot but I can't include him because we've heard nothing back from his family. All we know is that my co-worker had no known heart disease and was in incredible shape - he was a health food nut, walked to work everyday and lifted weights - was in better shape than anyone else I know. Still, I can't say with him but if his family tells us that's what the doctor told them than that would make 3. 

I know personally of two people who were "in hospice", one with cancer and the other with kidney failure and dementia - covid was listed as the cause of their death! There is a lot of BS surrounding this pandemic. 

 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

On 9/13/2021 at 8:10 PM, bonnie said:

Making a decision as to the safety of a vaccine is not an issue that will determine my salvation. Most of my immediate family opted for the vaccine in spite of possible risks. Not because we considered it fool proof or our christian duty. 

I am a supporter of the Covid vaccine, but I respect those who choose not to get it. Partially because the information from the government is so suspect that who can really even know what is going on. Fauci is not a credible spokesman for the CDC.

Risks are relative. Yeah, some may die from it, but guarantee, more will die from not getting it! In my county currently, 94% of those with the "delta" variant are unvaccinated. Actually having Covid is the best protection for delta!

Religion is another area of chaos especially as far as the SDA church goes. Catholics are getting support for conscientious objection to the vaccine. Will members of the SDA church get the same kind of letters from the leaders of the church. No!

http://adventmessenger.org/while-adventist-leaders-refuse-to-offer-covid-19-exemption-letters-to-their-members-roman-catholic-bishops-are-giving-them-to-their-flock/

[Gustave]

4 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Tens of millions of people have been vaccinated. A few have died. But guess what. In the normal course of things, among tens of millions of people, many will be dying anyway.

Now you are getting it. Dying at approximately the same time as you get the vaccine does not mean the vaccine did it! Anyone notice that a ton of others reasons to die have disappeared. Anyone getting the flu anymore? Heart disease? Anyone dying in car accidents? I say that because some have died related to a MVA and the hospital asked them for permission to list the cause of death as Covid! And offered them cash to do it!

The family was told by their Doctor that very few people have adverse reactions to the point of death but some do, unfortunately their names came up. 

Myself, I wanted the JJ Vaccine but they pulled it a couple days before I was scheduled for the shot - Pfizer was all they offered at the place I went to. I had nothing for side effects, literally nothing. The two people I know who died died about 4 months after I got my shot - I likely would have held out and not gotten one if that happened OR waited for the JJ to get released again. 

[B/W Photodude]

Just now, Gustave said:

I likely would have held out and not gotten one if that happened OR waited for the JJ to get released again. 

JJ is the one I would have chosen to avoid. Also Pfizer. I got Moderna. But I am sure someone can tell a story about Moderna also.

One of the problems with covid and possibly the vaccines is blood clotting. My inf dz doc told me to take aspirin, among many other OTC meds & vitamins. I had already been reading up on the Covid effects and had been taking Aspirin for some time. If I opt for the booster, which I likely will not, I would load up on aspirin before taking the shot. Discuss this with your doc before doing this yourself!

ZDoggMD on Youtube is one of my favorite speakers regarding Covid issues:
This Vaccine Mandate Is A Huge Mistake | A Doctor Explains
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lryJ2_umSg

[Gregory Matthews]

The issue of conscientious objection to the COVID vaccine has been raised by several people.  This is a valid issue that deserves consideration. The first question to be considered is that of the law.  In the United States, conscientious objections must be based upon the law.  This includes both statute law and case law.  In the U.S, there is a substantial body of case law that has developed in connection with military service.

The U.S. statute law for exemption to military service allows for religious exemption.  In the development of the associated case law, the following elements have developed:

·         The person who claims the exemption must be sincere.

·          The official teaching of the denomination to which that person may belong is not relevant to the claim of the individual.

·         The claim for a religious exemption does not require a belief in a god.

The result of this is that the position of the denomination is not important.  What is important is the sincerity of the individual.  From this perspective, a letter from a denominational clergyperson is of value only if it addresses the sincerity of the person requesting an exemption.  It is valueless if it only speaks to the teaching of the denomination.

Personal note:  As a former U. S. Army chaplain I was extensively involved in processing the requests of Army personnel for either discharge or assignment as a conscientious objector.  My work in this area resulted in formal recognition by a 2-star general in the Pentagon and which at that time resulted in my involvement in the majority of such requests from people assigned to the military base where I was assigned.  All (100%) of the conscientious objection cases to which I was involved were determined in a manner consistent with my determination of the person’s sincerity.

From this perspective and established case law, in the U.S. a request for a religious exemption of the COVID vaccine will be determined by the sincerity of the individual and not by the official teaching of the denomination.  Therefore, a letter from a clergyperson will only be helpful as it addressed the sincerity of the person.

 

[stinsonmarri]

8 hours ago, bonnie said:

Many a lot more educated than you have stated it is unconstitutional. Biden stated earlier that mandates were not a consideration. In his usual "honest" fashion of course that has changed. I was curious as to what our denomination would do. If for now the fines would hold it would be devastating to the denomination if they did not force the issue. If they hold with the educated wisdom of so many that it isnt lawful, would they stand their ground. If they wouldnt stand firm where would they draw the line. Biden does pretty much as he pleases so shall be interesting.  With so many SDA cheering almost as they trample the constitution I am not sure  it would be a big surprise for them to tajw path of least resistence

May You find peace in YAHSHUA Bonnie!

[bonnie]

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

May You find peace in YAHSHUA Bonnie!

Long before I became acquainted with you.Just dont be so quick to judge those that disagree with you. Give those that do some credit for having what they believe are valid reasons. Calling them selfish, only caring about themselves, turning their backs on the commandments and threatening with the everlasting lake of fire over a vaccine is not spreading the gospel. Just because you claim the righteous high ground doesnt mean you are standing on it.