We don't talk about Pastors when they...

[Stan]

move every 4-5 years, hoping their house has increased enough to cover the real estate fees. Other companies pay those fees for people who move.

We also don't talk about the other expenses involved, such as his/her spouse doesn't work in an organization long enough to qualify for a pension. (This is more of a US problem, )

It was estimated by one person involved in the GC pension that all things added up cost a Pastor between 35 - 50,000 for each move.

[cricket]

35-50,000 per move! Those must be some houses they're living in.

Has the GC person also estimated how much the pastor's save when the congregants help them pack? Invite them over for dinner? Give them gifts of a special nature?

[Stan]

that is the cost out of pocket of the Pastor, the conference pays the moving truck etc.

The cost is in lost pension of his/her spouse and various other things having to get other furniture too match, and several other items... This is not counting the human cost of giving up friends of the spouse and kids, etc

[Dr. Shane]

Maybe we should get more like the Army and slow down on moving pastors around so often.

[cricket]

Amen to that, Shane!

[Fran]

Well, there are also pastors that stay 4 years and should have stayed no more than 3 months.

What is the cost to the members who were supposed to be nurtured. The shoe fits both ways. Many times, they ask to move. These pastors do not have to accept these calls unless they are asked by the conference to do so.

Many pastors stay for long times and have a wonderful church families and would never think of leaving. Others, come in with the attitude, My way or NO way! They need to be fired! We have thousands of pastores in the ministry who need to change their careers. Most usually, the pastors want to leave, or are asked to leave for other reasons. Look at both sides.

[cricket]

I couldn't agree more, Fran!

Is it true that some pastors have to accept calls if they are asked by the conference to do so? (Serious question--I'd always thought that the choice to move was the pastor's.)

[Dr. Shane]

I think pastors should be assigned to a church and stay until they either request to be moved, offered a promotion, or the conference believes they would better serve another congregation for whatever reason. I see no reason why a pastor couldn't spend his entire carear in one church. I would think it would help in outreach work.

[LifeHiscost]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Stan Jensen said:

It was estimated by one person involved in the GC pension that all things added up cost a Pastor between 35 - 50,000 for each move.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

There are pros and cons to every occupation and will be as long as we're in the enemies territory. One way to look at the pastor's plight is to consider that anybody who needs that much money to spend on moving their earthly goods probably has more of this earth's riches than they need. I can see why some people feel this earth is a good place to settle down.

[:"red"] "Then He said to them, 'Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.'" [/] Luke 12:15 NASB

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[Dottie]

I'vwe read all the posts below this one, but what I don't understand is why one would need to change "furniture to match." Why not just paint the walls? It's cheaper. This is from one who grew up with the same furniture through many moves and my parents had it until they died, and my daughter is using it. They bought quality to start with.

About the cost of moving. Around here, the pastors move because they don't like the house they're in, but they still are pastoring the same church. They move from about eight miles away to about eighteen miles away.

[Stan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

One way to look at the pastor's plight is to consider that anybody who needs that much money to spend on moving their earthly goods probably has more of this earth's riches than they need

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I repeat it is NOT THE MOVING COST, IT IS NOT THE MOVING COST, NOT THE COST OF MOVING. The conference pays for the moving cost.

It is not the cost of moving the goods.

Not the cost of the moving Van

Not the cost of the boxes

Not the cost of motels

Not the cost of meals on the road.

Not the cost of phone calls to the new area, or the old area.

[LifeHiscost]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Stan Jensen said:

I repeat it is NOT THE MOVING COST, IT IS NOT THE MOVING COST, NOT THE COST OF MOVING. The conference pays for the moving cost.

It is not the cost of moving the goods.

Not the cost of the moving Van

Not the cost of the boxes

Not the cost of motels

Not the cost of meals on the road.

Not the cost of phone calls to the new area, or the old area.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I perceive you are very passionate about that point, Stan.

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps I should put it another way. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It isn't every day that people take me seriously. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Here might be a point worth considering. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laughhard.gif" alt="" />

I really didn't mean to tread on anyone's toes. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laughhard.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laughhard.gif" alt="" />

If you're still interested in another's viewpoint, I have thought about this alot. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laughhard.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laughhard.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laughhard.gif" alt="" />

Even if the cost is high, no matter who pays the cost, the principle seems the same.

[:"red"] "Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." [/] Matthew 8:20 NASB

[:"red"] "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life." [/] Matthew 19:29 NKJV

Now! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If I'm still missing the point <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> it seems true that many might have accepted the religious norms of church service without rightfully knowing what the cost of discipleship to Jesus really entails. OTOH my heart does go out to those, particularly who pay a price they never expected they would have to pay, especially a price asked for the commitment someone else made to whom they were attached, and without their personal approval.

However, that seems to be the price many have to pay for residing in the enemies territory.

[:"red"] "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW..." [/] Matthew 10:34,35 NASB

Emphasis theirs LHC

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

As you may have noticed, my sense of humor may be somewhat

warped. However it is either <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laughhard.gif" alt="" /> or cry. And I'm supposing you don't want to see a grown man cry since there is no emoticon for crying. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mittelgr124.gif" alt="" />

[Neil D]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Not the cost of the moving Van

Not the cost of the boxes

Not the cost of motels

Not the cost of meals on the road.

Not the cost of phone calls to the new area, or the old area.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

No, it is not the cost of a physcial move that Stan is spotlighting...It is the cost of loosing a member of a community, networking the pastor with the other members of the community outside of the church. It is interaction with other pastors, the organizations, the knowledge of who is able to do what in a church, and who is able to thrive doing that job..It is going leaders within a church and having the church thrive and grow.

It take about 4-5 years for a paster to really know a church and it's community. It is about that time when a pastor become truely effective that some conferences move them.

If you take a look at churches that truely mature, and grow, then you will find that a pastor stays in the area at least 10 years [if not a life time], before he moves. Some conferences are working to move to this principle [not the life time 'non-move'], as it keeps costs down.

[nuff sed]

And then when American pastors "spend several years in Canada" they are forced to take part of their pension prorated in Canadian funds... By the time they have to pay a fee to cash the checks and have them converted to US funds they have lost about half the value........Regards( and disgusted) Don

[Gregory Matthews]

A couple of comments:

a) The cost of living is so high that some pastors end up living 100 miles form the congregations that they pastor. How effective can that be. That happens when the Conference cannot pay the necessary monies for the pastor to transfer from one place to another.

Yes, the cost of transferring pastors is so high that some Conferences will allow a pastor to stay in a congregation well beyond the time that they should stay. That results in a spiritual cost to the congregation, and ultimately to the Conference.

c) I spent my time in the military. I moved every few years. Those moves occurred more frequently than SDA pastors currently move. Yes, there are real costs to the pastoral spouse, and to people who transfer to other countries--I transfered to other countries three times. All of those moves were expensive. But, the military was more willing to pick up the costs of those transfers than was the Conference when I was employed by the Church. After I was employed by the Church, I moved five times in 7 1/2 years. No it was not because I was a poor pastor. It was simply what the President wanted. [NOTE: In those 7 1/2 years I had four (or was it five) Presidents.] Once the President moved me for a three month period. It was known when I moved that I would move again in three months.

d) Sometimes we have unrealistic expectations. I was dealing once with the President of the Alaska Conference in regard to a pastoral position. 85 per-cent of my stuff was in storage, and the government would have shipped it to Alaska if I had taken that position. The President asked me to sell everything that I had, and to purchase new belongings after I got to Alaska, if I came. Is that really realistic to ask of people? [NOTE: A somewhat similar situation ensued in conversations I had with

the President of one of the Canadian Conferences.]

e) Purchase of new (used) furniture when one moves to a new home is not due to the color of paint on the walls. Additional rooms, or conversely fewer rooms, in that new home often will require that present furniture be discarded, and other furniture be purchased. One of my moves, which was about 12 months (The same President who moved me for three months.) was from a very small two bedroom home to a larger multi-story home. [NOTE: In those days the Conference owned the home. I did not have a choice as to where I lived.} My three month move was from a multi-story home to a one bedroom basement apartment.

f) Folks, there is no easy answer. Pastoral couples typically pay a price for each move. The denomination typically is unable to pick up the full costs of a move.

g) Housing costs are high. We moved 2 1/2 years ago so we could keep our son in an SDA school. We had two choices in regard to where we moved, as we had a choice of two schools. We ended up moving to an area that was 14 miles from the school that my son attended, and 40 miles from where I work. If we had moved near the other school, we would have been 12 - 15 miles from where I work, and quite close to the school he attended. But, a house equivalent to what we purchased where we moved would have cost us double what we paid for this house. We did not feel we had much of a practical choice, as long as we intend to send him to a SDA school. We paid for that move ourselves, out of our pocket. One of the hidden costs has been that we have had to keep two cars going.

But, the Lord has blessed greatly. We made the right choice.

[lazarus]

Here's the first move experience we had with a conference.

We were finishing up my internship and the conference TOLD me they were moving us to a district involving 3 churches.

My wife handed in her resignation, they requred two months notice. We were to move in three months. About a month and a half before we were to move, I recieved a call from the President saying he had changed his minds and wanted to send me somewhere else. They now did not want to move me for another 6mths. My wife went back to her employer and they said they already had someone for her position. I spoke to the president again but he said there was nothing they could do help.

He did offer to give me my moving allowance, about $1000, at that point rather than when I moved. He thought he was doing me a favor!

Since that I point I have moved volutarily everytime. I have turned down a number of moves until recently because they probably would have been detremental to my family but perhaps good for my "career".

Not complaining but Pastoral moves are:

Hard on wives careers/friendships/families

Hard on Kids

Hard on finances

I don't think there are 1000 of pastors who should be fired. There are thousands who should be held more accountable, supervised, better trained, given quarterly reviews etc.

[Nan]

I have not seen many comments in this thread on the cost of moving to the educational and social life of the children. The current practice of usually leaving a pastor in one place for 4 -5 years, at least in this division, is meant to be an improvement on the old days when they could be moved every couple of years.

Is it still the case that PKs (preachers' kids) are still looked on as likely to have behavioural problems? Small wonder if there is no certainty in their social network, and they are aware that nothing is really permanent. One friend, the child of a minister, said she had attended 20 schools in 12 years.

And besides this, there is the chaotic influence on their education, especially if the moves are to different states or countries. Sending the child off to boarding school may ensure some stability but not all pastor parents want or can afford that option.

This is not even a criticism, more an observation. I do not think many ministers are in the job for the monetary or social advantages which it confers.

[Gregory Matthews]

My comments go back a number of years as I now work as a hospital chaplain, and not for a Conference.

I once worked for a President who would call a pastor on Sabbath morning and tell him to say good-by to the congregation as the pastor would be moving the next Thursday.

At a time when my wife was having a difficult pregnancy, the President (see above) ordered me to move. I provided him with a written medical opinon that such a move would likely terminate the pregnancy. That President told me to move anyway, and leave it to the Lord.

I got him overruled. My move was directed to occur after the birth of my child which was successful.

[aldona]

Wow...I wonder if the same President preached a sermon that Sabbath about "family values" and the importance of family.

I've heard of others being ordered to move when they were caring for terminally ill parents. They agonised over the decision and decided to move as they felt this was honoring "God's" call above the needs of their own family.

Personally, I would have quoted the 5th Commandment to the President and told him what to do with an order like that.

aldona

[Amelia]

Quote:

I recieved a call from the President saying he had changed his minds and wanted to send me somewhere else

There ya go. Never accept the first decision of a man of two minds.

[lazarus]

lol,

My posts have been so full of errrs lately. I guess its trying to post with a 2 year old crawling all over you.

[Woody]

Don't get down on yourself Laz ... I think your mistake was accurate.

[Bravus]

Haven't read the whole thread, so this may have been mentioned before... but I believe there is excellent research showing that keeping (effective) pastors in one church for very long periods is the key to church growth. Frequent moves tend to be a recipe for fragmentation, and for shifting goals and approaches... quite apart from the costs to families.

[Bravus]

Two further points, now I have read the whole thread (and yep, NeilD had raised the point earlier!)

1. Moving pastors should NOT be a solution to the problem of bad pastors. If a pastor is ineffective he needs to be mentored, monitored, trained and supported... and then if it's impossible, directed into another form of ministry. Just foisting an ineffective pastor on a new congregation every few years is a recipe for disaster.

2. The points about not being greedy and clinging onto earthly goods muct be applied to the organisation as a whole as well as to the pastors as individuals. It's not fair to require the moves and not fund them appropriately... under the "workman is worthy of his hire" principle. Just seems like all the 'sacrifice' ends up being on the part of the individual, none on the part of the organisation. More generosity and a more realistic assessment of the true costs might, for example, avoid pastors leaving the church or losing their families.

[Beryl]

During my MUCH younger days, when I was a member of an evangelistic team, I well remember a Young People's meeting (remember those great Sabbath afternoons -- when EVERYONE turned up because they felt young?)where the question was asked, "What is it that makes you look forward to heaven?" From the front seat the evangelist's wife spoke up -- "NO MORE MOVING HOUSE!!"

Beryl