We don't talk about our Teachers when

[Stan]

They spend 5 years at our collages, at over $20,000 per year to be qualified to teach in our schools. This is not even counting more if you take into consideration lost wages as they were going to school.

Then we pay them pennies when they are starting out.

[Guest]

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Stan Jensen said:

They spend 5 years at our collages, at over $20,000 per year to be qualified to teach in our schools. This is not even counting more if you take into consideration lost wages as they were going to school.

Then we pay them pennies when they are starting out.

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let's talk about why "christian" education costs both arms and a leg.....

[Stan]

exactly

[cricket]

State colleges cost a lot less and the potential for reaching souls is greater.

[Barbara]

It's not only the teachers at the college level the staff are paid as much as they would be at a public school and unless you are on salary you don't get any help with send your kids to other Adventist schools. That is the one issue we are dealing with here in Walla Walla right now. Since Paul is hourly we don't get any help to put our girls in school. But praise the Lord we can do it with no help from the college.

[Halfstep Denise]

Apparently this section is encouraging us to talk about these various issues.

Stan, how much are our teachers and ministers paid? You've mentioned how little they are paid but you weren't specific enough.

Regarding teachers and our schools, my brother won't have anything to do with the church, but he and his then wife decided to send both of their children to an Adventist school. Now his daughter wants to send her daughter to the same Adventist school she attended. She has about 4 years to save for the tuition!

Halfstep Denise <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sorry Barbara! I didn't mean to reply to you!!! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" />

[LifeHiscost]

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Cricket said:

State colleges cost a lot less and the potential for reaching souls is greater.

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If we are well grounded in our love of Jesus and have settled it in our minds that the teachings of the world will always be making an effort to undermine our faith in His Word as expressed in the Holy Bible, then the evangelizing by unbelievers for unbelief will have no power to conquer. However if we think we can attain the righteousness of the Holy One by seeking higher levels of intelligence through proposals advanced by the astute of those lost in their sins, there will accrue many trials in our experience to help wean away from the world, those who are seekers after the Pearl of great price.

[:"red"] "“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it." [/] Matt 13:45 NKJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[cricket]

It would be ludicrous to think that one could attain the righteousness of the Holy One by seeking higher levels of intelligence through proposals advanced by the astute of those lost in their sins.

Aside from evolution and religion courses, state colleges will teach the same courses as will the church institutions.

[james423]

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Cricket said:

Aside from evolution and religion courses, state colleges will teach the same courses as will the church institutions.

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And then they put a non-religious slant, a spin, on everything else. I've taken courses from a public university and noticed this.

[LifeHiscost]

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Cricket said:

It would be ludicrous to think...

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The primary reason why you, Cricket, think it would be ludicrous is because you're already convicted by the Holy Spirit of that reality. Truth, whether receieved through religious training, or arrived at through accepting something as "common" sense, always becomes settled conviction through the Holy Spirit, no matter what venue God chooses to use to reveal Himself.

[:"red"] "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must (learn truth) be saved." [/]

Acts 4:12 KJV Parenthesis mine LHC

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Aside from evolution and religion courses, state colleges will teach the same courses as will the church institutions.

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And these courses will lead to independence from God in the secular institutions, when success from that which is taught is not undergirded with universal principles consistent with the Truth as it is in Jesus, most easily found in the writings of the Holy Scripture.

[:"red"] "....apart from Me you can do nothing.

" [/] John 15:5 NASB

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

Happy Sabbath!!

[cricket]

I, too, have taken courses from a public university. Three different public universities, actually. Out of the 200+ hours I've taken I've seen nary an anti-religious slant.

[cricket]

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And these courses will lead to independence from God in the secular institutions, when success from that which is taught is not undergirded with universal principles consistent with the Truth as it is in Jesus, most easily found in the writings of the Holy Scripture.

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Not always. I'd even venture to say not usually. Of the coursework I mentioned in my previous post, 90% of the hours were taken before I'd become an Adventist.

Most of the people I know view religion and education as separate matters, i.e. "separation of church and state."

The bulk of our nation's public schools are filled with people who call themselves Christians. They learn religion at home and at church. They do not think of colleges and universities as places of intellectual and spiritual enlightenment; but rather as places where they will learn the skills and knowledge needed to secure success in their careers.

[Michelle]

I suppose it depends on your major--I did 3 1/2 years of English/Secondary Ed at my local state college, which does a good job academically--but I had several Christian friends who had transfered in at the same time as I did from other Christian/Catholic colleges, and we all found a common current of anti-Christianity in the English department. To me, that is totally understandable, and I think it's possible to do work in business, math, or other departments without encountering this. But in English, yeah, you'll get it. So in large part, it depends on your major.

M

[Michelle]

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Stan, how much are our teachers and ministers paid? You've mentioned how little they are paid but you weren't specific enough.

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That depends on where you live because there is a sliding scale depending on cost of living. For example, MI, where we used to live, is on schedule A, the lowest, while HI is on schedule E (and I've heard that SF has it's own schedule, F, because the COL is so high there). But in general, in a schedule A, a teacher fresh out of college will probably make between 20-24,000/year. Each year of employment will bring a marginal increase; a masters will bring additional increase; after about 15 years and a masters, a teacher is maxed out, at maybe $35,000 (but I'm giving guestimates--I haven't kept up on pay scale totally).

A teacher's family can, with planning, afford to have a SAHM while the kids are small, but it is hard to afford to send their own kids to their own school without having both spouses work (even with educational benefits). And many/most conferences forbid pastors/teachers from homeschooling (only one that I know of allows it, but there may be more).

Pastors are technically on the same schedule but, at least in the MI conference, they do get paid slightly more (different allowances, like car). Since they are considered independant contractors, they have different legal issues than teachers, but I don't know how that affects taxes or whatever--just makes it more complicated.

HI is the only state I've lived in where SDA teachers get paid more than PS teachers (I honestly don't know how PS teachers in HI can afford to live there!), though I would imagine that there are places in the south where it is true as well.

The pay is not overly high, but the benefits are generally good, with good dental and eye care included. Teachers in most places can live comfortably. But if they come out with large student loans, it is hard to pay them back quickly.

There are, of course, alternatives to getting a teachers education--I graduated from a state school--but those are generally viewed with great suspicion by hiring schools/conferences.

M

[Dr. Shane]

The cold reality is what the church is ignoring. Anyone that takes a job after college that pays an annual salary less than the total amount of their student loans is making a bad financial decision.

In South Texas our school districts start out at $34K - $36K and our local community starts out at $31K but the average is above $40k.

In Texas our conference got out of the education business and turned the elementary schools and academies over to the local churches. I am not involved with it but I imagine that hurt salaries and benefits.

Adventist schools should pay off a teacher's student loans entirely in exchange for a ten or fifteen year commitment (depending on the size of the loans) to teach in their system of schools. In that case the cost of Christian education would be bore by the school system and the teachers could afford to take a job for less.

[Michelle]

Shane--I did not know about your TX conference not having an education department--I would be highly curious if there were a boarding academy, and if so, how is it being run? When I was student-teaching about 14 years ago, a friend told me never take a call to teach in TX--if that were the only position open, do something else for a year. The pay was low and the teachers were not treated well by the conference. Sounds like this is the end result of that situation.

M

[Dr. Shane]

We have an academy on the same grounds where I attend church. It is supported by five to seven local churches. We have about twenty SDA churches within a 30 mile radius of here.

[Michelle]

Shane--is it a boarding academy? or a K-12 Day academy? Is this the Texico conference? Is this the first year of having no ed. department?

Boarding academies are the ones I see being the most seriously affected in most ways, but having no oversight for the day academies, jr. academies and elementary schools strikes me as being, well, strange. I am just incredibly curious how it is working in real life!

M

[Dr. Shane]

This is a boarding academy although we do have an elementary school. We are in the Texas, not Texico, conference.

I doubt we will be able to afford to send our kids to Adventist school so we are trying to get them into a good charter school.

[Neil D]

Man, I thought some of this was a no brainer....but apparently some have forgotten a few things about adventist education.....

Talking about the elemtary level and high school level education:

There are many important things growing/learning experiences that go on in adventist education that never show up in PS education.

Of course, not all adventist educational schools look to produce an atomsphere conducive to learning AND growing AND character development...but those that do, thrive...as both public and adventist communities find and seek out these educational institutions. While some adventist educational systems seek to convey 'just knowledge' [aka the 3 Rs], these schools reflect the minimalist teaching attitude that shortens these young one's eductation.... unless the teachers seek to pass on more than a mere knowledge of books.

Character development is greatly enhanced in a proper Christian adventist enviorment. Family's teaching values to thier children find that an emphasis on character developement essential to learning.

Having grown up in public schools, I can honestly say that there is NO guided character development in the public sector. Whereas, many Adventist Christian schools do seek to guide familys character development in those individuals.

Just a thought that has not been experessed in this thread.

[Dr. Shane]

The charter school we are looking at not only provides charachter development, it requires parents' participation and a focus on the family life. Their philosophy is that in order for education to be effective the parents have to be involved and the children need a functional home to live in.

Charter schools are public schools but they can expel troubled students easily and do not have to allow students to return the following year if their parents are not participating as required.

So with a school like that I am thinking we can provide religious instruction in the home and at church. Perhaps our kids can win some souls to the kingdom.

[Dr. Shane]

Well, we got notified today that Alex has been accepted into the charter we had hoped for. He starts kindergarden next Monday.

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/23_30_104.gif" alt="" />

[CyberGuy]

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State colleges cost a lot less and the potential for reaching souls is greater.

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Actually state colleges cost more per student. They are just subsidized by tax dollars.

[Dr. Shane]

Too bad our denomination cannot find a way to subsidize Christian education. I think the Catholic schools get a lot of help from their organized church.

[CyberGuy]

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Too bad our denomination cannot find a way to subsidize Christian education. I think the Catholic schools get a lot of help from their organized church.

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Our denomination do heavily subsidize christian education within our schools. If the conferences and churches did not do so the cost would be 25 to 30 percent higher than it is already.