We don't talk about our Teachers when

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Are there costs in education that are hidden? There're the teacher's salaries, the building maintenance, books and supplies. What else are the essentials? (yes, I'm an ignorant non-parent)

[Dr. Shane]

Our local church school has six or eight local churches that support it. From what I understand we get 0 from the conference. The tuition isn't high compared to other denominational schools but the school is low budget and doesn't pay teachers much which results in not being able to attract and keep good and experienced teachers.

[cricket]

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That's the first time I've ever seen that word. I like it!!

Cricket

[carolaa]

I know this is an old thread, but I have to clarify that the Texas Conference DOES have an active Education Department. They are not out of the education business; they are out of the boarding school business.

[Dr. Shane]

I recently learned that the Texas Conference does fund a lot schooling, which I had not been aware of before. The Texas Conference seems to be doing a better job in recent years of informing the members of how the tithe is being used. For many years, no conference I have belonged to discussed such matters in open format like I have seen done here in Texas in recent years.

[carolaa]

Our local church school has six or eight local churches that support it. From what I understand we get 0 from the conference. The tuition isn't high compared to other denominational schools but the school is low budget and doesn't pay teachers much which results in not being able to attract and keep good and experienced teachers.

I wish I had written down where I read this article just this week, but anyway it said there was some study done that showed that the education level of a teacher/tutor made no real difference in student learning. I'm not going to believe anything based on one study, of course, but from my own observation, I would tend to believe this is true. I've seen well educated, experienced teachers who are lousy, and I've seen "teachers" with almost no training come in a do a great job for a pittance.

Once, the conference sent us an experienced teacher who they practically guaranteed would turn our school around for the better, and she turned out to be the lamest teacher I had ever seen, and then she brought in a teacher who was the meanest teacher I'd ever seen (up to that point).

By contrast, in another school we "locally hired" a woman for a pittance with no teaching degree and little experience who did a great job and the kids remember her fondly because she listened and encouraged and brought out the best in them. Unfortunately, when the conference found out how successful she was, they offered her a full-pay-with-benefits position in another school, which, of course, she accepted. :R

[Dr. Shane]

I am happy with our son's teacher and I have learned a little bit more about Adventist education since participating in this thread over a year ago. The comment I made was based off from meeting so many Adventists that use to be teachers in our system buy left to teach in the public school system.

[nuff sed]

Too bad our denomination cannot find a way to subsidize Christian education. I think the Catholic schools get a lot of help from their organized church.

The Catholic church spends 75% of its income on education...

I think that it is time that you asked your conference what percentage of its GNP (income) it spends on Christian Education. I think that you would be amazed at how much it really is.

I really don't understand how some Adventists delude themselves into thinking that the time spent in secular classrooms by 'humanism focused' teachers will automatically be nullified by the time the kids spend at home. 'Government' schools have an agenda. "As for me and my house........................."

[carolaa]

From what I've seen, the pay and benefits are pretty comparable with public schools, but the teaching load is greater, particularly in a multi-grade classroom. Plus, the smaller the school, the more you have to cater to the parents than you would in a public school. Not necessarily a bad thing, but more of a challenge.

I'm pretty sure you're right about the conference not giving money to the schools. In some areas, there are programs set up with matching funds or whatever, but it's usually not a lot. One Union I was in had a program to help new Adventists who wanted to put their kids in church school. Some conferences try harder to cut costs than others, which is helpful to the schools. For instance, we lived in one conference that had an Outdoor School, and they let sponsors attend for free. The next conference we moved to had an Outdoor School also, but the student cost was almost double AND the sponsors had to pay the same as the students. Of course, that makes it harder to find sponsors, and w/o sponsors the kids can't go.

You know, I had a great experience with church school. I went from 3rd grade on up to college with few problems, a bad teacher her or there but nothing too serious. With my son it's been a whole different disappointing story. An AVERAGE of 2 different teachers every year to date. Out of 14 teachers, only 4 of them have been really good. Another 2-3 have shown potential to be good, and the rest have been downright lame or mean. I have taken textbooks home nearly every summer because they hadn't gotten even halfway through core subjects such as math and English. I don't expect that they will finish every book, but not even halfway!!?

I see more and more schools struggling with financial, administrative, and other problems, and no one has answers, not the conference or anyone. I have become personally convinced that the main problem with so many of our schools is that they are being run by amateurs in their spare time. Most school boards I see are comprised of church members or parents who want to have a school but have no clue how to run one. They meet once a month and about all they do is fight fires. Many times they can't even get a quorum to show up. How can we expect to run quality schools this way?

Anyway, maybe I'm getting off topic...

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Too bad our denomination cannot find a way to subsidize Christian education. I think the Catholic schools get a lot of help from their organized church.

The Catholic church spends 75% of its income on education...

I think that it is time that you asked your conference what percentage of its GNP (income) it spends on Christian Education. I think that you would be amazed at how much it really is.

I really don't understand how some Adventists delude themselves into thinking that the time spent in secular classrooms by 'humanism focused' teachers will automatically be nullified by the time the kids spend at home. 'Government' schools have an agenda. "As for me and my house........................."

You're totally right. The conference may not give money directly to the schools, but they do pay for teacher benefits such as continuing education and conventions, as well as hiring/moving expenses. They subsidize programs like Outdoor School and Music Festival. The provide travel expenses for personnel to conduct teacher/school evaluations. Sometimes part of these expenses are billed to the school through the monthly teacher billing, but it never covers the entire costs. And these are just things the Education Department takes care of. When you consider the amount of money spend by the Youth Department on summer camps, Pathfinder camporees, Bible retreats, etc., it is a very large amount of money the conference spends on the youth.

BUT...one has to wonder if this large outlay is the wisest way to invest in the children/youth when most of them do not attend church school or summer camp.

[Dr. Shane]

If I recall correctly, The Texas Conference sent out a letter within the last year showing how the tithe is spent and I was surprised to see how much was spent on education. I think a big part of getting more members to pay a loyal tithe is letting them know how the money is spent and letting them have something to say about it (via a representative).

[Kevin H]

Part of the problem is the tremendous raise in the cost of education when compaired to the pay on the job market. I originally studied to be a teacher in our schools. I went to one of our colleges and graduate schools in the late 1970s and early 1980s, six years with the whole thing: Tuition, Room, Board, Books etc. on student loans, and the total pay back was $17,000.

Sadly there were no jobs at graduation, so I ended up as a chaplain assistant in the Army, paid back the student loan, went into the Air Force Reserves as a Psychiatric Technition. While looking for teaching jobs got hired at one of our hospitals in 1990 as a psychiatric technition and since I was in the nursing field I went for my RN.

I could have paid out of pocket for the community college, but there was a one year waiting list to get in and they did not have an excellerated program for those with previous degrees. So I went to the local Adventist college, this time using loans for only tuition and nothing else. Granted I was shocked when after my $17,000 for six years of everything, to learn that the tuition only was $20,000 a year, and that I'd have to borrow about $50,000 for my RN. But I figured that post graduation pay kept up with tuition raises, and at worst it would be 10 years of paying about $500.00 a month.

Well, I took out the about $50,000 in loans and got my RN/BSN. I was shocked to learn that my 10 year pay off was $975.00 a month, and that if I worked 7 days a week between my two jobs I took home in the $900's every two weeks. I had to renegociate for a 15 year pay off of $750.00 a month to survive.

A few years ago the student loan company offered me refiancing at lower interest rate and said that my payments would drop to $475.00 a month. Sounded like heaven. What they did not tell me was that they were going from the 15 year pay off to a new 30 year pay off and that my total payback for about $50,000 would have been $237,000. I am fighting this by trying to pay $1208 a month, which is hard as my current nursing pay is $1200 every two weeks. I wish that I had waited the year for the community college and gave the money in donations to our schools instead of ruining my life and living to pay the banks. Something needs to be done for our schools to become affordable.

[fccool]

I remember our university built a 10 million student center. It was quite nice and the student were ecstatics. The same year the tuition went up nearly $2000. In a way, you get what you pay for. The problem is that there is no detachment of what people would like to enjoy. Usually universities charge a flat rate per credit, and I think it's ludicrous. I think it would only be fair to break the education costs per student per overall usage of the facilities, and thus would make it fair and truly affordable for people who don't want to have all of the extra juice that they are paying for and never using. Then the students would dictate whether they really need that new extra curricular 8 million building or not.

[Dr. Shane]

High tuition costs are an issue in all universities in the US that I am aware of. Is a student center needed? Well, our universities are competing with other universities and if we do not offer what other universities are offering we will not be able to attract enough students to make a go of it.

I am really undecided if I endorse our current university system. We need universities to train workers for our gospel missions. There is little doubt we need to train pastors, medical workers, counselors and musicians. However I am not convinced our universities need to be getting into as many other disciplines as they do. It just seems to me that a lot of young Adventists feel obligated to attend an Adventist university and end up graduating with student loans that are four times as much as their starting salary. That is an awful expensive dating service.

[fccool]

That is an awful expensive dating service.

:)

[Planey]

Well, our universities are competing with other universities and if we do not offer what other universities are offering we will not be able to attract enough students to make a go of it.

However, less non-necessary, expensive facilities might mean lower tuition costs.

Would lower fees be a sufficient inducement to attract more students, do you think?

Graeme

[Jeannieb43]

This is just a general comment on this topic, not necessarily addressed to Graeme.

From where I sit, sending children to an Adventist elementary school is worth every penny it costs. If you want your child to remain in the church, to become a committed, well-informed SDA Christian, then no amount of tuition is too much.

My children are in (or out) of the church in direct proportion to the percentage of their lives they spent in SDA schools. It's absolutely true that the environment is the thing which keeps kids learning more of the Bible, and forming friendships which develop into life partners. My three kids have chosen their spouses and their lifelong friends from among their schoolmates. The only one who married a non-SDA is the one who left our college halfway through and transferred to a state university for the Bachelor's degree. The other two married within the faith, because they went through SDA schools all the way.

My 3 kids are all good kids. But it's during the college years that a person chooses his life work, his life philosophy of faith, and his life partner--all three big big decisions are made in the college years. The atmosphere of an SDA college is the best possible place for a young person to learn to think for himself, to make choices on his own, and to learn what the world is all about! And in order to be happy, comfortable, and "feeling at home" in one of the SDA colleges, a student should previously have attended an SDA academy. It makes for easier adjustment.

There's no question but what it is expensive! Our schools, churches and conferences scrimp and save to put on a good educational program, but where, I ask, would you rather invest your money?!! And what good does it do to die rich if your kids have turned their backs on God?

[Dr. Shane]

The sad fact is that a family making $35,000/year simply cannot afford to spend $10,000/year for an SDA college. Our schools have moved away from having industry which allows students to work through college. It seems they moved away from this as students gained the ability to borrow money to go through school. So what we are saying is it is better for students to borrow money and graduate in debt than it is for them to work their way through school.

[fccool]

The sad fact is that a family making $35,000/year simply cannot afford to spend $10,000/year for an SDA college. Our schools have moved away from having industry which allows students to work through college. It seems they moved away from this as students gained the ability to borrow money to go through school. So what we are saying is it is better for students to borrow money and graduate in debt than it is for them to work their way through school.

Essentially, this has became a way of life for many students, as they see the debt as a convenient preference over working through school. The idea is that education is an investment, the same way as a business borrowing is an investment.

[Dr. Shane]

A student is not to borrow more money for college than he or she will earn their first year out of college. I.e. If the starting salary for our teachers is $38,000/year, a student studying to be a teacher shouldn't graduate with more than $38,000 of student loan debt. From what I understand, those graduating our universities commonly graduate with twice that much debt.

[fccool]

Yep. I can't imagine starting out your adult life with 60k in debt to begin with! Especially if it is not interest free. Even the modest 4% of 60k is lots of money for somebody just graduating.

Unfortunately, some jobs today would not even hire you without that piece of paper. Ironically, in the first month of my professional experience I've leaned more than would be covered in a school year. I think this is the case for many occupations today.

[Contented]

I'm jumping in late here, but I attended SDA schools from K-through college. I loved it all - except the years I was a village student attending a boarding academy. That is neither here nor there. We sent our children to an SDA school for five years, at which time we took them out and sent them to a local inter-denominational school. We did it because our children were submitted to caustic comments and actions by the teacher, and such comments and actions among the cildren were allowed without care or censure. Our children came home crying way too often, and could not sleep! Within the week after attending the other school, they were singing at the breakfast table! Praise God! But so ended their SDA education.

I have taught in Special Education in the PS's for 33 years. I find the comments about uncaring teachers, and about no effort to teach moral character building concepts in public schools utterly false. In our system, there were Christian teachers who met together to discuss how such growth might be accomplished in a system where religious discussions with children are forbidden. Teachers who left with tears in their eyes when children were suffering when parents died, and when divorces happened, and when children were hurting, and they offered hope and help even if it had to be off of school grounds. I know that this system is a small town system, and that it differs greatly from inter-city schools etc., - I suppose. However, with careful consideration, a good school can be found in the public system.

We just finished an update of our SDA school policy handbook at our church, and I was amazed to find that the standards in our public schools related to dress, drugs, weapons, bullying, attendance, parent/teacher interaction, and overall responsibility - (and some other things)were somewhat higher than in the SDA policy book. How come? If people are looking for character building, besides education, they need to be looking at PS, it seems to me. Anyway, we fixed it, for our school!

It seems we are so anxious to get kids into our schools, often because we need them to help pay for the school, that we take children from the PS that have problems we are not ready to handle, and children that we say we put our kids in SDA schools to avoid that kind of associations, and lower our standards to make our school seem more attractive to the non-Adventist. This happened in our school to the extent that it was not called an Adventist school any more, and church standards were rarely mentioned, still it was run and supported by the church. Text books were not much different than PS books, and Bible was taught with books made of cartoons! How can we say we're doing better in the character building department?

I loved church school! And I wanted my children to love church school! But, for whatever reason, we (the schools, or maybe the church) have changed! We need to revisit our goals, and look again at our text books, and redefine what SDA schools are encouraging 'teachers' to teach and redefine what teachers should 'be'.

Believe me, I want church schools to succeed! I'm willing to help. But I also respect many, many PS teachers and staff. We are all working together for children, we don't need to compare ourselves among ourselves by ourselves!

[Dr. Shane]

I would take my children out of Adventist school too if they came home crying and the school did nothing to stop whatever it was that was causing it. However that is far from the case. My child loves the church school. He went to PS for kindergarten and tells me how much more he loves the church school.