We don't talk about Spiritual Abuse in the Church.

[Stan]

You know the statements...

If only you had more faith God would answer your prayer...

or

You are not to look at people, just Jesus. Is that a cop out for not dealing with Issues or what? In other words it is YOUR fault.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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Stan Jensen said:

You know the statements...

If only you had more faith God would answer your prayer...

or

You are not to look at people, just Jesus. Is that a cop out for not dealing with Issues or what? In other words it is YOUR fault.

---

It may be their fault, but by those words that doesn't release me from Jesus promise to me, and it is a promise worth claiming.

[:"red"] "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another." [/] Galatians 6:1-4 KJV

[olger]

Amen LC.

olger

[Dr. Shane]

I think it is often the result of someone not grasping the issues at hand. I think of issues like alcoholism, gambling and homosexuality.

[darlene]

What about physical abuse in the church? Is it talked about today?

[olger]

Hi Darlene.

We hear about it in certain circles, but not real often. I'm sure this statement will draw some fire, but it seems to be one of the trigger topics of the we-want-to-be-popular-and-politically-correct crowd. That's the best way I could say that.

The solution is to help people understand the source of their anger and lead them to resolve the cause. Repentance is also needed. There will be some bitterness to resolve as well.

When the heart of a person is open to love, they will not want to react with violence. Sometimes people are too physical with their children because they were treated the same way when they were young. Jesus can break that cycle, and it absolutely needs to be broken. Physical abuse is not acceptable.

God never wastes the pain that we experience. He can bring a lot of beauty out of suffering.

brother olger

[there buster]

Spiritual abuse is as common in the church as it is at CA, which is to say, pretty common, and for the same reasons. We excuse abusive beahvior because at first, we think the person both fragile and lacking knowledge. Eventually that becomes the established practice. "Be careful, Sister so-and-so is very sensitive. She can be hurt easily." Or, "Brother so-and-so knows the Bible really well. He has a vile temper, but he always shows up and does the work."

I knew a woman who everyone in the church said was, "the best Adventist they knew." Not one of them like her, but they admired her knowledge and energy in giving Bible studies.

As I puzzled over this, I discovered how common that was. Since I worked for the denomination, I went to many churches. And I realized how common it was that the person everyone thought a great church worker was dysfuncitonal. It's become almost axiomatic with me. It's a common thing that the one person every one 'admires' for their Christian devotion is someone without real friends.

Such dysfuntions are simple to deal with. Simple, but not easy. It's just that few people have the courage to do what needs to be done.

[Nicodema]

(Just tagging on some thoughts, not in response to anyone in particular.)

Spiritual abuse, to me, is when someone tries to use moralistic or theological "heavy handed" language as a means to manipulate someone else's feelings, perspective, or decision.

If something really is true, it can stand on its own merits as such. We don't need to "scare" or "browbeat" or manipulate someone into seeing it as truth. In fact, the lighter the touch, the more compelling the truth. Sometimes a phrase such as, "in my experience" or "the way I see it" -- which might at first seem like a "compromise" upon the "absolute" nature of truth -- is its most effective vehicle of conveyance to another's mind, precisely because it is so non-intrusive.

Remember, Jesus says He stands at the door and knocks. He doesn't barge in, take over, and insist on His way.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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olger said:

God never wastes the pain that we experience. He can bring a lot of beauty out of suffering.

brother olger

---

A key to the kingdom of God on earth. Those who decide to serve Jesus will never be able to change the world in entirety(that being the responsibility of the Holy Spirit). Therefor the key to happiness here is a personal adaptation to the inevitable.

[:"red"] " Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." [/] Matthew 10:34 NASB

[:"red"] "Those who love Your law have great peace,And nothing causes them to stumble." [/] Psalm 119:165 NASB

[Nicodema]

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God never wastes the pain that we experience. He can bring a lot of beauty out of suffering.

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This strikes me as an anodyne for slaves manufactured by those who stand to profit from their ignorance and servitude. Shut up slave, be content with constant toil and beating, and don't look for freedom or escape or the betterment of your lot, in other words. Excuse-making for the presence of pain and suffering -- products of evil afoot in the world -- rather than active effort to relieve and eliminate them.

But that's just my opinion, and I'm the sort of person who believes the world ought to be changed in many respects, and not merely borne as it comes. Particularly when it comes to suffering. Considering Jesus devoted His earthly life entirely to its relief, I believe I stand in good company. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

Remember, Jesus says He stands at the door and knocks. He doesn't barge in, take over, and insist on His way.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/amen2.gif" alt="" />

OTOH in some cases an individual blanches whenever some one suggests that the truth is different than has been expressed.

[:"red"] "Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." [/] Matthew 16:22-24 NKJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

Yes, am well acquainted with witnessing that effect indeed. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Nan]

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Nicodema said:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

God never wastes the pain that we experience. He can bring a lot of beauty out of suffering.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This strikes me as an anodyne for slaves manufactured by those who stand to profit from their ignorance and servitude. Shut up slave, be content with constant toil and beating, and don't look for freedom or escape or the betterment of your lot, in other words. Excuse-making for the presence of pain and suffering -- products of evil afoot in the world -- rather than active effort to relieve and eliminate them.

But that's just my opinion, and I'm the sort of person who believes the world ought to be changed in many respects, and not merely borne as it comes. Particularly when it comes to suffering. Considering Jesus devoted His earthly life entirely to its relief, I believe I stand in good company. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Nico, I agree with the general tenor of your post. But sometimes suffering just happens - not caused by anyone trying to profit or inflict or whatever - perhaps it is those cases, where we have no course but to fall back on God, from which blessings can come.

(I think of the loss of a child from a congenital abnormality - I have been there, done that - and other examples could be quoted.)

[Nicodema]

I basically agree with what you're saying Nan; however, that is why we have science and medicine and other such developments -- to work continually to alleviate suffering or even eliminate it where we can find cures for such things. Meanwhile, for those saddled with caring for such a child I would caution heavily against outsiders eulogizing over their experience. Like poverty, as a character-building experience it is highly overrated, and it is always safe to eulogize from a distance and reserve the right to judge someone who is actually stuck with such a situation and would like the freedom to simply say, "frankly, this sucks and there is no blessing in it that is not destroyed by the hardships involved" and just be allowed to say that and be heard and validated for speaking his truth.

(Speaking as one such mother myself, of a child born with an incurable condition which incurs problems the likes of which cause conventional social support systems to refuse and withdraw what support they were intended to give as a result.)

[Nan]

For whatever reason, there is suffering in the world, some is directly caused and some just happens. I explain my reactions to it in terms of how I feel about the death of a loved one. We are Christian, and we have the hope of the resurrection, etc, and that is wonderful. But we have to live on this earth, now, without the one we have held dear. To pretend we should not feel grief is at best absurd and at worst dangerous. So with suffering, God can and will help us through if we ask - but it does not make the journey one we would have chosen.

(And Nico, there are times I am glad my daughter was afflicted with a lethal condition, rather than have had her live with a lesser degree of the problem, but one which would have produced great difficulties for her. Your struggle with and for your daughter is ongoing.)

[LifeHiscost]

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CoAspen said:

I work with cancer pts on a daily basis.People that use the saying, "you can always find good/God/wonderful this that or the other" in pain and suffering, are not in touch with reality. This is something that has long been used in the church as a type of mantra to make 'good christians' feel good about suffering and if you don't suffer than your relationship may not be what it is supposed to be. I call that 'spiritual abuse'.

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I prefer to base my own experience with pain, upon the life of Jesus.

[:"red"] "Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." [/] Heb 5:8 NASB

[:"red"] "In all their affliction He was afflicted,And the angel of His presence saved them;In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old." [/] Isaiah 63:9 NASB

[:"red"] "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." [/] Isaiah 53:5 KJV

I have a spouse who, for the last 40 years has spent her life in pain. During most of that time I have been blest with the responsibility of helping her to find something in life worth living for, something that she could make sense of, that her own experience might draw her closer to a knowledge of Jesus despite the constant pain she was suffering.

In that period of time one might think that much sacrifice had been exerted for her sake. Very few understand how much closer to Jesus she is responsible in influencing her husband's life.

Taking the Words of Jesus seriously__,

[:"red"] "...Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." [/] Matthew 25:40 KJV

__what could have been a chore, became a service of love that served to make Jesus more real through the life of one of His servants, and increased His love in mutual consideration, as the one seemingly needing the greater physical attention knew how to nurture far better than the one who appeared less in need.

Far more to tell, not enough time to tell how the grace of Jesus has magnified and made wonderful the anticipation of two needy servants, who have prospered spiritually through pain and sorrow.

[:"red"] "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself" [/] Gal 6:2,3 KJV

[:"red"] "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." [/] 3 John 1:2 KJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[Parade Orange]

LIFEHISCOST!

I havent read every single post you have ever made here so I might be in great error for saying this.

Thats the most you have ever said about yourself here!!!

Finally!

I hope you know what a blessing that has been here.

[Parade Orange]

I was very young and immessionable when I first came to church as a adolescent with my next door neigbhor.

I was wide eyed and bushy tale!

I was taught so much and took it all to heart.

God doesnt listen if my eyes arent closed in prayer.

God doesnt like me when I sin.

Never place anything on the Bible.

Dont marry mixed races.

If I obey GOD I will be rich and handsome/pretty.

If I sin others will know it when bad things happent to me.

If I dont read and pray fervantly enough every moring I will be lost that day Cause I have not re astablished my relationship with God.

If I pay Tithe I will never be without want or comfort.

God hates fags until they are straight.

If I eat meat I will die under God's wrath.

If I do everything right at all times I will be rewarded someday by going to heaven.

All of this- I took to heart. I was and am surrounded by people who takes these and much more to heart.

[Nicodema]

Gay4Jesus, the "god" (and the environment) you describe above makes me wanna hurl. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/icon_smile_sick.gif" alt="" />

I have this sudden impulse to call on Satan now so I can feel CLEAN after being defiled by all that YUCK. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/yucky.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/sad25.gif" alt="" />

What you described is creepy. To me it is the spiritual equivalent of "bad touch" ... if you get my drift.

Filthy molesters of innocence.

[Gail]

You would like to call on Satan??

[Nicodema]

I was just making a point by means of contrast. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/AAdoh.gif" alt="" />

Had I made the same point by saying something like, "I would now like to go bathe in mud and vomit so I can feel CLEAN after being defiled by all that YUCK," would you have taken that literally as meaning I really wanted to bathe in mud and vomit?

If you're interested in psychoanalyzing me in particular, yes, as a matter of fact, those kinds of twisted enslaving cliches passing for religion or faith are, in fact, one of the specific things that creates an impulse in me to call on Satan. The absence of truth compels me to demonstratively reveal not only the actual source of what is being passed off as its substitute but the ultimate end result in its most extreme form of such substitution. It's a deviation of the prophetic impulse in a sense. If you have any thoughts about this dynamic I'd be interested to hear them, as we all know how driven I am by the injunction, gnothi seauton (know thyself).

However, the main point was, reading those standard cliched twisted misperceptions that pass for religion made me feel so defiled that what would normally be considered defilement seemed cleansing by comparison.

I think you simply missed the point. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[LifeHiscost]

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Gay4JESUS said:

I hope you know what a blessing that has been here.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

One of the saddest parts of the Christian's experience is their inability to discern the intent of the heart of his/her brothers and sisters in Christ.

I gratefully accept your acknowledgement of being blest, not as something I deserve but as a gift of God, for His purposes.

It is my belief that your subsequent post was not discerned in its' intent by some. Be that as it may, we have a guide given in love, that we might at last share in the glories of the heavenly realm.

[:"red"] "And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear...." [/] Ezekiel 2:7 KJV

[:"red"] "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." [/] Revelation 12:11

KJV

[:"red"] "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners...." [/] 1 Timothy 1:15 KJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

Keep the faith!!

[Nicodema]

I don't know why my thread on this topic was removed, but I am not going to tolerate having the truth silenced. Perhaps it will be welcome here.

YOU lack faith -- YOU YOU YOU.

Here are some of the wonderful and loving statements that Pastors, Deacons and Lay Persons, say to people with serious medical conditions, (such as AIDS, Cancer, Chronic pain etc.) and afflictions after their church prays for them and there is no healing, no miracle, nothing!

1) "YOU LACK FAITH"

2) "GOD ALREADY HEALED YOU. YOU CHOOSE NOT TO BE HEALED."

3) "YOU ARE HEALED. THE PAIN IS JUST A TRICK OF THE DEVIL."

4) "YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN BE HEALED. YOU JUST SEEK ATTENTION FROM OTHERS."

5) "YOU HAVE NOT MADE A POSITIVE CONFESSION." (of faith)

6) "YOU HAVE SECRET SIN, HIDDEN SINS. REPENT."

7) "GOD DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING FOR YOU. YOU ARE BEING SELFISH."

8) "PAIN IS THE GREAT GIFT FROM GOD THAT YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT."

9) "YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO FORCE GOD TO DO A MIRACLE FOR YOU! REPENT. SHAME ON YOU."

10) "GOD ALREADY SAID YOU ARE NOT TO BE HEALED. ACCEPT YOUR FATE AND REJOICE. SING PRAISES!

These are true statements that I have heard churches & church people say to people and testimonies that people have shared.

So here is the grossest form of spiritual abuse: when the churches and church folk pray for the sick or afflicted and nothing happens -- rather than face their own lack of power they turn against and condemn the sick rather than try and figure out why God is not manifesting HIS power through THEM.

[Naomi]

Sorry Nico, but I have never heard these things told to a person who is suffering or has a loved one suffering. I am not saying that some unfortunate, uninformed people may suggest this.

I do/did know of some New Age Movements that said that we as individuals do cause ourselves to become ill. That it is our sin that is to blame. That is not something I have heard in one of our churches. These people also believe that if you want wealth you should call for it to enter your life and it will be there. And, they believe that they are God’s … God within me is given a new meaning.

In some ways we do bring on our illness due to stress, improper diet, exercise and rest. But, there are many who are extremely ill who have done nothing of themselves to cause their illness.

I may not be quoting their philosophy exactly as they present it, but that is the general concept.

What I have heard is that we live on a sinful planet and sin produces illness. God does not cause illness, pain or death. It is an outward manifestation of the condition of our existence.

We do not know the overall plan for our salvation. That is why we pray, "Not my will but Thy will be done."

Naomi

[Naomi]

I work with cancer pts on a daily basis.People that use the saying, "you can always find good/God/wonderful this that or the other" in pain and suffering, are not in touch with reality. This is something that has long been used in the church as a type of mantra to make 'good christians' feel good about suffering and if you don't suffer than your relationship may not be what it is supposed to be. I call that 'spiritual abuse'.

Agreed, it is spiritual abuse used a time when it does the most damage.