We don't talk about Spiritual Abuse in the Church.

[Naomi]

G4J,

I am sorry you are surrounded by this mentality ... again that is something that I have not been exposed to.

With the exception about not placing anything on the Bible. It was during my first year at Church Camp and I was unpacking and laid something on my Bible and another girl went into a state of shock.

I do understand the theory behind, but I think it takes a lot more than eating meat, marrying someone of a different race, etc to keep you out of Heaven.

It all comes down to your personal relationship with God.

Naomi

[aldona]

Naomi said:

Quote:

Sorry Nico, but I have never heard these things told to a person who is suffering or has a loved one suffering. I am not saying that some unfortunate, uninformed people may suggest this.

I work in the health care profession, and am a member of an SDA church, and I have heard every single one of these phrases, and continue to do so regularly.

A good friend of mine who suffers from chronic fatigue syndrome has probably had all of these said to her alone.

aldona

[Naomi]

Aldona,

I am saddened to hear those things being said to those who are most in need of being uplifted.

I seem to have been in different circles. PTL

Naomi

[Parade Orange]

When I became a coleporter I didnt have a car and didnt know how to drive. My parents didnt teach me-anyway I digress.

So after an Elder in the church taught me how to drive I aquired an old mustard toyata.

The dear old saint who sold me the car for coleportering told me 'as long as I dont sin my car wont break down.

Being a new gulliable naive christian I believed her and made the agreement with God that as long as I dont sin my car would always be running!

I was so excited!

I was going to go to more homes and share Jesus and not sin!

Well being an old car the water pump gave out a few months later! I had to tell my roomate who worked for the conference also. He helped me take care of it and I knew he knew that i must have masticated or spoke ill of someone. I was a mess. the people at church must have known I have sinned also cause I didnt have a working car for a few days.

I cringed being seen at church.

Someone gonna find out!

Then the clutch went out! that was a big deal and expensive! I felt that the church surly must know now that I am a sinner!

I didnt want to face anyone at church when that went down.

Somehow in my shame based thinking that since the clutch went out that is a bigger sin that I am hiding!

"Be sure your sin will find u out" echoed endlessly.

I was afraid I was going to be confronted about my secret sins!

I knew they knew That I had homosexsual tendensies but didnt speak of it. Now that the clutch went out! I was going to come up in wednesday prayer meeting and pitied and talked about. Just like they do when I am there.

I couldnt show my face there.

I felt I lost my fellowship.

They would find out that I am a sinner.

I had a few more car problems of course and each time my soul would diminish and I have lost face and been discounted and judges as a reprobate.

I was faithful as much as I could be but I knew God was showing the church that I was a sinner and it killed me. I tried to be good.

I dont think like that now(?) but as a young Christian rejoicing in the Lord and sitting at the feet of the older saints- I took all their garbage in.

that was spiritual abuse. Of course I am partly to blame. I hung on their every word.

[Parade Orange]

I have so many stories I cant even begin so I wont

It brings back to many memories.

[David Koot]

[quote name='aldona.

I work in the health care profession' date=' and am a member of an SDA church, and I have heard every single one of these phrases, and continue to do so regularly.

[/quote']

In 20 years of various types of ministry, including full-time exposure to church situations, regular hospital visitation as well as chaplaincy training, I have NEVER heard any of those things said to someone who is sick, nor can I imagine anyone who is stable and has a healthy Christian experience saying such things.

Dave

[Naomi]

[quote name='aldona.

I work in the health care profession' date=' and am a member of an SDA church, and I have heard every single one of these phrases, and continue to do so regularly.

[/quote']

In 20 years of various types of ministry, including full-time exposure to church situations, regular hospital visitation as well as chaplaincy training, I have NEVER heard any of those things said to someone who is sick, nor can I imagine anyone who is stable and has a healthy Christian experience saying such things.

Dave

Thank you Dave. I was beginning to believe that I live in a "different" world.

[Naomi]

Quote:

The dear old saint who sold me the car for coleportering told me 'as long as I dont sin my car wont break down.

G4J I am really sorry that you had such an experience. As a young LE with an old high-mileage care I had many experiences. God in his goodness never allowed the car to leave me stalled on the highways. All mechanical and flat tires happened when I was in a safe, convenient location.

Many times I had reason to say "Thank you God. I made it one more time!"

Now you know that [color:#000066]we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God [/color. It is a daily battle that we all have to walk that lonesome road; alone but with God.

I do pray that you can forget and forgive such insensitive statements.

Naomi

[Toni]

With the exception about not placing anything on the Bible. It was during my first year at Church Camp and I was unpacking and laid something on my Bible and another girl went into a state of shock.

Just recently (well, in the last year, since my son joined Pathfinders)my son got a little panicked when I placed some papers on his Bible at the table. He told me that we aren't supposed to put anything on top of the Bible. I asked him where he had heard that, but he couldn't remember. I am suspecting that he must have heard it at church or at a Pathfinder meeting. I grew up in another denomination, but have never heard that before! I told him that I thought that was superstitious thinking and not to worry about it. Of course, he should treat the book well (as I try to teach all my kids to take care of their books), but putting papers on top? I think that's proabbly okay. :-)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

... I kinda like having a bit of sacredness about the Bible...makes me feel like I have something holy in my hands..

[David Koot]

Thank you Dave. I was beginning to believe that I live in a "different" world.

Certainly! But I guess the world you live in is similar to the one I live in! I truly can't imagine balanced, ordinary people saying such things! But, I suppose one never knows.

Dave

[aldona]

Originally Posted By: Naomi

Thank you Dave. I was beginning to believe that I live in a "different" world.

Certainly! But I guess the world you live in is similar to the one I live in! I truly can't imagine balanced, ordinary people saying such things! But, I suppose one never knows.

Dave

You are truly lucky to live in the world you do.

I guess it just goes to show that there is more than one homogeneous "Adventist culture."

My friend with the chronic fatigue syndrome was visited by two of the church elders whose sole purpose was to inform her that "God had done this to her (note, not just "allowed" it to happen but deliberately inflicted it) because she had not been faithful in attending church every Sabbath."

Wonderful thing to say to an 18-year-old girl with no driving licence or car of her own, who depended on others for transport and whose health had been poor for some time.

And that was just at the start of her illness. It got more colorful. Now, almost 15 years later, let's just say she is interested in spiritual matters but never attends church any more. Those "saints" still do, however. Every Sabbath.

aldona

[D. Allan]

Some "spiritual abuse" results when christians consider their Denomination and its fundamental teachings, more important than people. It is an attitude that Jesus did not share. Thank you, Jesus!

Those having that attitude may not even be aware of it! But it hurts people anyway, often attacking their assurance.

Isn't such an attitude an "issue" needing to be addressed? Shouldn't the church try to make itself aware of it.

[Parade Orange]

ok one more story...

This is worse cause it happened to my sister.

We grew up knowing nothing about God so to my delight and witness my sis wanted to know about God. I am in my mid 30's at the time coming out of homosexualty and started going to a San Jose area church.

Nice big church.

Instantly I introduced her to an older saintly woman who loved JESUS.

We agreed to meet each other at church at 6:00 pm(an hour before prayer meeting which the older lady and I go to later) for Bible Study.

BTW I am the only man week to week there.In a big church. Looking for much needed fellowship. Not a man to be found as always!

I digress.

Soon after our Bible Study begun my sis my sister woke up to a beautiful sunny warm day and wanted to spend the day at Santa Cruz for a change of pace. She is a bartender and a night owl and wanted to have a day! She called the dear lady at her work and said she wasnt going to make it that evening cause she was going to be in Santa Cruz.

That dear Saintly woman who loved JESUS told my sis on the phone that my sis doesnt take Spiritual Things seriously and shouldnt miss our Bible Study. My sister was very upset when she called me and told me what the lady said. I was dumbfounded and didnt know what to say.

I didnt want to speak ill of that saintly lady cause she must have a hotline to God or somethin. I know my sis can be flacky sometimes. I have missed prayer meeting and Bible Study before but it wasnt cause I rejected JESUS like the lady said.

I didnt bring it up that evening at bible Study.

I was seeking God too and dint feel I knew enough to question her wisdom.

I know better now and I wish I was there for my sister.

Since I started going to church and suffered under spiritual abuse myself all those years before I thought to myself- Thats How It's Done!

well needless to say- my sis skipped all Bible Studies after that.

She felt JUDGED and discounted again by my church.

U see years before My sis started coming to church with me and I set up Bible Studies with my minister in SF.

She wanted to get to know the Bible and my minister was getting her ready for baptism. She didnt know that. and an opportunity came up for my sis to fly with a friend to Hawaii(sp?). She was so excited!

She told my minister and he told her she should be baptized before she left. My sis asked why and the Kindly old minister told her in case the plane crashed she would be ready to go to heaven! o boy!

She went to hawaii and stopped going to bible studies!

Of course I, as her older brother, was mortified but didnt defend her or ask the minister about it. I called up an elder saintly woman whom I confided in the past and told her and she(who knows the minister) said he is Spiritfilled and maybe he knows what he is talking about.

it took many years to get my sis into church and this happened to my sis again.

I dont try to drag my sis to church anymore. I cant bare it!

[Toni]

... I kinda like having a bit of sacredness about the Bible...makes me feel like I have something holy in my hands..

Oh, yes! Me too, I wouldn't put a potted plant on it or bury it under a pile of stuff or anything..but a couple of papers. I didn't like the way my son panicked about it...like he would get in trouble or a lightening bolt would come down and strike him.

[Parade Orange]

BTW

It doesnt work when I give my sis bible studies in the past!

lol. She questions everything and I try to answer everything and there is no structure and we never stay on topic.

and I have so much to say and get so excited as I share and my sis gets excited( I love painting pictures with my words) that we start laughing and getting crazy.

u would think we are squacking hens if u listened in.

So it dont work.

we are more like sisters than brother and sister.

[David Koot]

My friend with the chronic fatigue syndrome was visited by two of the church elders whose sole purpose was to inform her that "God had done this to her (note, not just "allowed" it to happen but deliberately inflicted it) because she had not been faithful in attending church every Sabbath."

Hmmm . . . not to discredit your friend's perceptions, but, having been around the block a few times, and having had various difficult experiences in the school of hard knocks, I have made a painful discovery: there are almost always two sides to a story. I should like to hear what those two elders have to say about it.

Dave

[Parade Orange]

Yes there are always two sides to every story!

It would be nice to hear what the elders actually said and what they actually meant if the words were misconstrued.

David Koot- God is so good to surround you with fellow christians who have an accurate image of God and His dealings with us sinners.

But that hasnt been the case for all of us.

[GreatLakesGramma]

When people lay a guilt trip on you to get you to be more involved in the programs and activities of the church than you personally can handle, that is spiritual abuse. There are a number of sayings in the Adventist church, possibly shared with other denominations, that have been thus used against me and others in the past, that I have learned are not true. They sound really good, but taken in the way they are generally used, they are false.

One of the favorites of those guilt-trippers: "God will give you the strength for anything you do for Him." This is used to justify disobeying God's health laws for the sake of church work. In fact, God will give you the strength to do whatever HE calls you to do. But not everything we think we are doing for the Lord, or that other people think we should be doing for Him, is part of His plan for us individually. In fact, I myself used to be so busy "doing for the Lord" things that other church members thought I should and laid guilt trips on me for even thinking of not being involved in, that I was under constant stress, and became incapable of doing anything well, and completely unable to do what God Himself had called me to do.

It wasn't until the stress destroyed my health, and I was spending most of my time lying on the couch feeling more dead than alive, and too sick to do anything, that God was able to get through to me that HE was not the one calling me to do all those things. Sometimes we have to say "no" to good things, because God does not call any person to become involved in every need that comes to their attention. But there will always be people ready to lay a guilt trip on anyone refusing to be involved in every little thing. Well, at least in some churches there always will be. Not in the church where we are now. We have moved our membership to a church 25 miles away, even though we still live in the same house, just 8 miles from the church where this happened. And let me tell you, I do not ever want to go back to that church as a member, not so long as the same people are there, and I have seen no evidence that any of them have changed.

[Woody]

Spiritual Abuse happens because we as a Church have establised a need to judge our fellow members' spiritual condition. Because the Church structure has lead us into the sinful practice of judging fellow Chrsitians ... it has become pervasive.

The judgment of the Church happens first of all, the moment you decide that you want to follow Christ. The Phillipian Jailor found out about Jesus and within an hour he and his entire family was baptized. Now ... In the SDA church that would NEVER happen. The reason is that the First Judgment must occur. First of all they have to teach you more than the love and sacrifice of Jesus . They have to teach you all 28 beliefs. Before they can baptise you ... they have to determine that you are living a God Filled life. The scripture says that AFTER baptism there is a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit to enable you to live a victorious life. But the SDAs won't baptize you until you have that victorious life. There are many SDA requirements prior to baptism. I'm sure they are as varied as the people who read this.

I will list a few : For certain you can drink TEA or COFFEE.

And you can't have any jewelry such as a wedding ring. Even though Ellen White said she wasn't a prophet ... and did not want most of her books even read or published ... you have to believe in her to be baptised by an SDA pastor.

Other requirements on the list include : No gambling, stealing or use of profanity, use of tobacco or alcohol.The only ammendment to stealing is that they allow you to steal from God through not giving His Tithes and Offerings. Well ... the list is so long I could go on forever. But the point is that we no longer observe the method of the early church.

The early church didn't have to worry about membership. The modern church uses membership as a method of judgment. All the above requirements of membership or baptism are also reasons you can be kicked out of the church ... "even though a sincere confession has been made" Church Manual p.162

A pastor can no longer just baptise someone who wants to be baptized. According to the Pastors Manual p.127 "Final Examination of candidates for baptism" must be done by the "entire church or representative group such as the elders or church board" because it is "unwise and theologically questionable for a pastor to take the sole responsibility." Yes ... they are all anxious to sit in judgment of your sins.

If this is not Spiritual Abuse ... They what is Spiritual Abuse?

If we did away with Membership and went back to the Example of the Early Church then there would not be the push to judge your sins before and after baptism. And ... the Spiritual Abuse would not have as much of a strong foothold as it has now.

[Woody]

Regarding this ...

"My friend with the chronic fatigue syndrome was visited by two of the church elders whose sole purpose was to inform her that "God had done this to her (note, not just "allowed" it to happen but deliberately inflicted it) because she had not been faithful in attending church every Sabbath."

I also have Chronic Fatigue along with Fibromyalgia and Chronic Myofacial Pain Syndrome ... I've had the same exact comments given to me. I plan to share some of my thoughts on this problem later when I get the courage. I am totally disabled and unable to work or attend church very much now. I am young and this has devistated me but not as much as some of the horrible comments from "good" Christians.

Since this is so dear and near ... I am not sure when I will be able to share all the hurt because I want it to be as positive as possible. I want to be able to share some good solutions also. So ... I will try to think about this and get it to you when I can.

Redwood

[Parade Orange]

Redwood,

God bless you

[Woody]

Thank you Orange.

[Guest]

Hey Redwood,

It might not be possible to keep it all "positive." I for one don't mind how it comes out, and would welcome anything you feel comfortable in sharing here.

The Church can be a cruel place for serious or chronic problems. And I don't just mean the Adventist Church. It is sad to see the negative reactions of many to those who have chronic conditions, or severe conditions.

[GodsOath]

Wow I've been reading posts after posts and they all seem very negative in nature. Well I guess this is the nothing-hidden-forum. Interesting to see how people are very open with some of their personal stuff.