We don't talk about damage certain groups do

[Stan]

We don't talk about damage certain groups have to split Churches/families as they come in and talk about good stuff but in a condescending way. One of many examples is the '1888 group' Churches are not strengthen when they come through.

Or Amazing Discoveries with the paranoia of the Jesuit Infiltration into our Church.

BOY am I going to take some heat for this one..

[Gail]

Jesuits and the U.N. and the New World Order

I mean, it's good to be aware but why make EVERYTHING in life out to be a symbol of Satan? That is what it seems when I watch their videos. It's like Reagan and his Reds under every bed

[Stan]

I remember one lady who took her kids out of pathfinders because the badges were in the shape of a triangle, a clear sign of Jesuits and the devil.

Thanks Amazing Discoveries!!! You clearly uplifted Jesus by doing that...

[Gail]

Or how about the pictures of Jesus with the cleft in his chin?

[LifeHiscost]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Stan Jensen said:

Amazing Discoveries!!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Maybe part of the reason is that every time we talk about those lesser known groups is because when we do, we unwittingly become part of their tickertape parade. As soon as I finish this post I'm planning on googling Amazing Discoveries, a group I had never heard of before. Maybe they have some good ideas of which I should be made aware. Just kidding!! At least about the good ideas. I may still do a little googling. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" />

It's something like searching into two of the great mysteries of the Bible, the mystery of Godliness and the mystery of iniquity. The more time I spend with the mystery of iniquity, the less time I have to spend with the mystery of Godliness.

[:"red"] "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." [/]

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

Keep looking up!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

[]http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/kopfschuettel.gif[/] Some people get caught up in all sorts of paranoia.

Kinda interesting that C/A's icon for *peace* <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/peace.gif" alt="" /> is also the hand sign for the horned god, Cernunnos. []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/faint.gif[/]

I was a bit mystified about that when I first came to C/A.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Kountzer]

I've never noticed those things about amazing discoveries. When you say amazing discoveries, I assume you're talking about Steve Wohlberg, and some of the prophecy seminars and broadcasts he has on sat. tv.

[Dr. Shane]

Some independant ministries have done a lot of damage to church groups, but where I come from, it is something that gets talked about a lot.

[Kountzer]

Wow. I just googled amazing discoveries and found this group on the web. It was totally different from steve wohlberg. I didn't know this group existed til now.

[cricket]

Who says we're not talking about these things??? Clearly, someone's been doing some talkin'!

[Gail]

No... Amazing Discoveries carries the lecture series by Dr. Walter Veith

I've had some pretty amazing conversations with them. They are a pretty conservative people, which is not bad in itself, but sometimes accompanied by anger and judgment. That is why our ABC shied away from carrying much of their stuff

[Gregory Matthews]

Amazing Discoveries: Well, well, our old friend, Dennis Wicklunds has surfaced again. He seems to have found a hom, and I assume is happy there.

[olger]

Steve Wohlberg is pretty solid.

Haven't seen Robert around lately...

olger

[Stan]

Yes, I have not heard Steve proclaim how Jesuits are controlling the Church...

[Stan]

Not tagging on to anyone here.

These groups (and I am not pointing at AD) tend to follow a pattern of three things..

1- Come to your Church with an out standing Righteousness by Faith sermon. VERY VERY strong.... lives are transformed..

2- Say we belong to a GREAT Church. Then they proclaim why it is not that great, and if they were in charge Jesus would come in days..

3- SEND me your Tithe, and it will do God's true work. AND proclaim EGW said this or that about Tithe.

[Nicodema]

*weeps*

[Ellen]

I know from experience that people like sensational things and are itchy for more of those revelations. They thrive on them and feel they are "in the know" more than us gullable Seventh-day Adventists who can be blinded by Satan's work in our midst.

If they don't get new scarey, startling things they will build on the ones they already have heard.

I have been reading Oswald Chambers and he has quite a things about settling on the ordinary and not living for the mountain tops etc. It is the valleys and plains of everyday living and experiences that Christians are called on to thrive in. Not the sensational. That is one point I agree with him on.

[GodsOath]

I've watched their tapes Total Onslaught from amazing discovery and they seemed to the point but not really getting people into the paranoia. I liked that they presented things with believable references but the main thing is that it brought to attention that things are happening in the world, that we need to keep watch just like Jesus said and to keep studying the Word of God. Now if people took it to the extremes then THAT is not good at all.

[John317]

We don't talk about damage certain groups have to split Churches/families as they come in and talk about good stuff but in a condescending way. One of many examples is the '1888 group' Churches are not strengthen when they come through.

Or Amazing Discoveries with the paranoia of the Jesuit Infiltration into our Church.

BOY am I going to take some heat for this one..

I don't have any personal experience with the "1888 group," so I don't even know who they are or what they say. I have read a great deal of SDA history and the writings of Ellen White on what happened in 1888, as well as the writings of Jones and Waggoner. Oh, yes, I have read books by Short and Weiland. I just have never been in church to hear anyone discussing these things or even met any of the so-called leaders.

All I can say is that there is no question that Jones and Waggoner's message was of God and that the church could have been in heaven by 1890 if it had accepted it. That means that if the church accepts that same message today, we could be in heaven in very short order. That is the most wonderful, marvellous news I know of. I find it impossible to believe that we cannot know what that message was. I know of one who doesn't want any of us to know that message and accept it. He wants it hidden in the depths of the ocean. He likes to see Adventists arguing over it and getting angry with each other over it just like they did in 1888 instead of asking God to prepare their hearts for the message.

I have a feeling from seeing some of the things written on CA that sometimes the so-called "1888 group" doesn't express their views in the most loving, tactful way. That should not be, of course. All of this should be done in love, not in any other way. There shouldn't be any room for condescending attitudes or words. But I think, too, some times people can see non-loving and condescending attitudes where there really isn't any or at least where none is intended. (Maybe it would be best, when we feel someone is non-loving or condescending, to go to them privately and tell them in a loving way what we feel or think. I know this can be done because I have to do it in my work 10 hours a day with juvenile delinquents. It does not always immediately bring the right responses, but I have learned that over time, it usually produces a change in people's attitudes. You will find that many people don't even realize they are giving those bad impressions and will be glad to hear your honest feelings.) We all need to work on trying to give our Adventist brothers and sisters the benefit of the doubt and not be in such a hurry to attack and find fault. When we read bad motives into others and make personal attacks, we are only doing the work of the Accuser of the brethren, and I know none of us would want to be found in that role.

What it makes me think of is what parents go through when they see both children whom they dearly love fighting with each other. It just must break Jesus' heart to see this. He loves every one of us and has given His life for us, yet we can't love each other for His sake.

"I saw that Jones and Waggoner had their counterpart in Joshua and Caleb. As the children of Israel stoned the spies with literal stones, you have stoned these brethren with stones of sarcasm and ridicule. I saw that you willfully rejected what you knew to be truth, just because it was too humiliating to your dignity. I saw some of you in your tents mimicking and making all manner of fun of these two brethren. I also saw that if you had accepted their message, we would have been in the kingdom two years from that date, but now we have to go back into the wilderness and there stay forty years." General Conference Bulletin, May 9, 1892.

"The message given us by A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner is the message of God to the Laodicean church, and woe be unto anyone who professes to believe the truth, and yet does not reflect to others the God-given rays." MS. 24, 1892.

[GodsOath]

John317,

WOW! I liked what you wrote and before I agree I have to do some research too. :-) My question is, if these certain groups were naysayers in their hearts, why would we need to wait for EVERY body in the group to agree? Why wouldn't He come anyway if we know that there are wheat and tares?

[GodsOath]

John317,

WOW! I liked what you wrote and before I agree I have to do some research too. :-) My question is, if these certain groups were naysayers in their hearts, why would we need to wait for EVERY body in the group to agree? Why wouldn't He come anyway if we know that there are wheat and tares?

[John317]

John317,

WOW! I liked what you wrote and before I agree I have to do some research too. :-) My question is, if these certain groups were naysayers in their hearts, why would we need to wait for EVERY body in the group to agree? Why wouldn't He come anyway if we know that there are wheat and tares?

Excellent question.

The main reason it did not happen in 1888-1890 is that so few accepted the message that God brought. It's apparent that the majority of the church, and especially the majority of the leadership, rejected the message. A lot of people, instead of studying for themselves and making up their own minds, were waiting for various leaders to show they had accepted it, and when they did not accept it, it meant a large portion of the church also failed to accept it. This was the very message that was to enlighten the world world, as described in Revelation 18:1.

If God had allowed the crises to occur at that time, before the wheat was ready to be reaped, there were many who would have been lost, who would otherwise be saved if they would be allowed more time to mature. That is why Jesus still waits, because most people in the church still are not spiritually prepared to go through the last great crises.

A second answer is that God is not saving just a few individuals but is saving a church. In other words, God is waiting for a substantial number of people to be ready for His return. It's also apparent God takes the leadership into account. As said before, the leadership generally rejected, or at least did not accept, the message of Jones and Waggoner. You will find some who dispute this, but the facts, in addition to the testimony of Ellen White herself, speak for themselves.

Some other reasons include:

God is waiting with longing desire for the character of Christ to be perfectly reproduced in His people. God wants to be able to point to a rather large group of people as proof that Satan's charges are wrong. Remember that the larger issue is not the salvation of individuals but the resolutions of certain questions raised about God and His government.

Revelation 7 and 14 speaking of the sealing of a certain number of believers, whether that number is literal or symbolic we really can't be certain, but does show that there is a number of people involved, evidently a very substantial number of people who will be ready when Christ returns.

There apparently needs to be a rather large group who accept the latter rain power and whom God can then use to spread the last message of mercy to the entire world just before Christ returns. (But remember that before we can accept the latter rain, we have to accept and put into practice all that God has for us in the early rain.)

You might want to check out a very good book on this subect, called, "Why Jesus Waits," by Herbert Douglass.

[John317]

John317,

WOW! I liked what you wrote and before I agree I have to do some research too.

Yes, by all means. If interested, you can get everything Ellen White wrote on the subject. It's called the EG White !888 Materials. You can order it at the Adventists Book Center. God bless!

[John317]

...Or Amazing Discoveries with the paranoia of the Jesuit Infiltration into our Church.

I don't know if the Jesuits have infiltrated the Seventh-day Adventist Church or not. I don't have any real convictions one way or the other about it. But I think two questions and the answers to them bring up some interesting possibilities.

The two questions I pose are: (1) Have the Jesuits ever infiltrated organizations such as the Adventist church? And (2) Have the Jesuits any motive for wanting to infiltrate the Adventist church?

Without question, I think only a positive answer can rightly be given to those questions. Here is why:

First, it is well known that one of the primary purposes of the Jesuit movement is to defeat the inroads that the Protestant movement made against the Roman Catholic Church in general and against the Papacy in particular. (Let the reader keep in mind pp. 234, 235 and 566 of the book, The Great Controversy.)

Second, there's no question that the Jesuits in the past have infiltrated various institutions, including churches, in order to influence them in favor of the Vatican. The question here, then, is whether they have a compelling interest in infiltrating and influencing the SDA church.

Thirdly, since the Adventist church is the largest and most visible Protestant church today that teaches the Protestant view of the Papacy as the little horn power, or antichrist, of Daniel and Revelation, it stands to reason that the Jesuits just might have reason to want to see the Adventist doctrinal position on that issue undergo some changes.

Is it just coincidental that there has been a move within the Adventist ranks since Vatican II to change its views on the issue of the identify of the little horn power?

Is it just coincidental that there has been other changes within the Adventist church that are in line with Catholic plans as specified in the Vatican II documents?

I am not saying the Jesuits have infiltrated the Seventh-day Adventist church. I am merely saying that the idea may not be so far fetched or crazy as some people seem to think.

Based on what Malachi Martin, a Vatican insider, wrote in his book, The Keys of This Blood, the Vatican definitely has more than a passing interest in the SDA Church and in its activities. (See pages 285, 286.) You cannot read about the history of the Vatican without being impressed with how it has stayed in power for over 1500 years and has managed not only to outlive its enemies but to regain much of the power it lost in 1798 when it appeared to be all but dead. It cannot be justifiably denied that Papacy's growth in power and influence since 1798 is at least partially a direct result of the work of the Jesuits. (See the book, The Jesuits, by Malachi Martin, who wrote favorably of that order as a former Jesuit himself.)

I wouldn't want to end this post without leaving a couple of very important points:

(1) Even if Jesuits were to infiltrate the SDA church, that could not defeat God's plan for the Adventist church to carry the Third Angels Messages to the world. It might delay it, yes, but it could not defeat it.

(2) The greatest danger to the Seventh-day Adventist movement will come from within our ranks, not from outside organizations such as the Jesuits. Their threat to the SDA Church, then, could only be termporary and not permenant or fatal, because God is able to overrule any damage that Jesuits, or any other such organization, could possibly do to God's church.

[David Koot]

Is it just coincidental that there has been a move within the Adventist ranks since Vatican II to change its views on the issue of the identify of the little horn power?