We don't talk about damage certain groups do

[D. Allan]

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That is why Jesus still waits, because most people in the church still are not spiritually prepared to go through the last great crises.

How do you know they are not spiritually prepared?

~d.allan

p.s. I think Jesus comes every day. Sometimes many times a day. Some people have learned to walk with him all day through their ordinary everyday lives. In that sense he has already come. It may be the only sense in which He will ever come.

[GodsOath]

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p.s. I think Jesus comes every day. Sometimes many times a day. Some people have learned to walk with him all day through their ordinary everyday lives. In that sense he has already come. It may be the only sense in which He will ever come.

Could you please clarify your comment above? Because if that is the only way the He will ever come then it does make for a very empty life and just waiting for something to happen that will never happen is pretty sad. :sad Where is the hope of deliverance? Where is the hope of His judgement? Might as well throw the whole bible out since it does say he is coming back.

[D. Allan]

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Could you please clarify your comment above? Because if that is the only way the He will ever come then it does make for a very empty life and just waiting for something to happen that will never happen is pretty sad. Where is the hope of deliverance? Where is the hope of His judgement? Might as well throw the whole bible out since it does say he is coming back.

I don't say it is the only way He will ever come, just that it might be. In any case I'm not a Christian just to get into heaven. Being a Christian has added so much to my life here on earth, that it matters little to me if there actually is a heaven. If so, fine. If not, fine. Don't worry about it if you don't understand my 'strange' attitude. Your own experience and hope is what really matters to you.

[D. Allan]

Also, (i forgot to mention this) when Jesus enters your heart and takes over, that is another way He comes. There are supposed to be many 'little' Jesuses. Every Christian is a Jesus in that sense. Is that too weird? The gospel of John seems to me to support this idea.

[John317]

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That is why Jesus still waits, because most people in the church still are not spiritually prepared to go through the last great crises.

How do you know they are not spiritually prepared?

~d.allan

p.s. I think Jesus comes every day. Sometimes many times a day. Some people have learned to walk with him all day through their ordinary everyday lives. In that sense he has already come. It may be the only sense in which He will ever come.

Yes, through the Holy Spirit He does come to us every day. And, yes, you are right about walking with him all day through our ordinary everyday lives. But that is not what the Bible is describing when it talks about the Second Coming, as in John 14: 1-3 because in those verses Jesus says he will come back to take his followers to be where He is.

Look up some of the primary verses in the Bible having to do with His second coming. It's essential to go not by our own opinion but by what the Bible actually teaches.

Matthew 24:30, 31; John 14: 1-3; Acts 1: 7-11; 1 Thess. 1:10; 4:14-19; 2 Thess. 2: 2-8; 2 Peter 3: 3, 4, 9-14; Rev. 14: 14-15.

[John317]

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That is why Jesus still waits, because most people in the church still are not spiritually prepared to go through the last great crises.

If the church was prepared to go through the final crises, as described in Revelation, then God would already have allowed the final crises to occur, the message of Rev. 18:1 would go to all the world, God's people would be sealed, probation would close, and Christ would return. The reason we can be quite sure of this is that it's what the Bible teaches. God is not interested in waiting any longer to take us home than is necessary. He would have done it over a hundred years ago except that the church did not accept the message He sent in order get His people ready to be translated.

In order to see what must be done for us to be ready to be translated, study closely Revelation 7-18, paying special attention to chapters 7, 13, and 14.

[John317]

I don't say it is the only way He will ever come, just that it might be. In any case I'm not a Christian just to get into heaven. Being a Christian has added so much to my life here on earth, that it matters little to me if there actually is a heaven. If so, fine. If not, fine. Don't worry about it if you don't understand my 'strange' attitude. Your own experience and hope is what really matters to you.

What you say is true about our being Christian not just in order to get into heaven. Heaven (as a quality of life with Jesus) starts here on earth.

Your thinking about the relative unimportance concerning heaven is mistaken, however. It's certainly not what the Bible teaches. It teaches that God paid an infinite price for you and I, and since He did pay for us, He will be sure not to lose us. The Bible compares it to a farmer who plants and waters his crop not in order to lose his crop but in order to reap it. Do you think we mean less to God than a crop does to a farmer? Jesus and the Father love us and gave everything for us, so we can be quite certain that God will fulfill all the Bible promises about His coming for us and taking us to be with Him just as it is described in Revelation 21 and 22.

[John317]

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p.s. I think Jesus comes every day. Sometimes many times a day. Some people have learned to walk with him all day through their ordinary everyday lives. In that sense he has already come. It may be the only sense in which He will ever come.

Could you please clarify your comment above? Because if that is the only way the He will ever come then it does make for a very empty life and just waiting for something to happen that will never happen is pretty sad. :sad Where is the hope of deliverance? Where is the hope of His judgement? Might as well throw the whole bible out since it does say he is coming back.

You have it exactly right, GodsOath. That is clearly what the Bible teaches.

[Robert]

One of many examples is the '1888 group' Churches are not strengthen when they come through.

The Jews didn't like be told they were wrong either. The 1888 group, while not perfect in their delivery, means well and their message is important.

[Robert]

All I can say is that there is no question that Jones and Waggoner's message was of God and that the church could have been in heaven by 1890 if it had accepted it.

Which means that the SDA church rejected the third angel's message back then. That's what the 1888 group basically says. Some don't like their toes stepped on because they think that they belong to God's remnant, commandment keeping church. The Jews thought much the same so they closed their ears to the message then also....History repeats....

It's good to understand the 1888 issue, but instead of telling the church they rejected the message give them the gospel. That's what Jack Sequeira did....He belonged to the group initially, but instead of telling the church they messed up he proves it by giving them the gospel from the Bible.

Many then say, "That's not what we were taught". Hence he doesn't have to say the church rejected the message, it is self-evident since they don't know the gospel. His approach is better.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

All I can say is that there is no question that Jones and Waggoner's message was of God and that the church could have been in heaven by 1890 if it had accepted it.

Which means that the SDA church rejected the third angel's message back then. That's what the 1888 group basically says. Some don't like their toes stepped on because they think that they belong to God's remnant, commandment keeping church. The Jews thought much the same so they closed their ears to the message then also....History repeats....

It's good to understand the 1888 issue, but instead of telling the church they rejected the message give them the gospel. That's what Jack Sequeira did....He belonged to the group initially, but instead of telling the church they messed up he proves it by giving them the gospel from the Bible.

Many then say, "That's not what we were taught". Hence he doesn't have to say the church rejected the message, it is self-evident since they don't know the gospel. His approach is better.

Rob

I'm in basic agree with you. I think it's a great idea to teach the 1888 message directly from the Bible. Not sure, though, if Jack Sequeira is doing that. He may be but I still need to study it. Have you compared the 1888 message as given by Waggoner and Jones and Ellen White with what Sequeira teaches?

[Robert]

Have you compared the 1888 message as given by Waggoner and Jones and Ellen White with what Sequeira teaches?

Jack's emphasis is on the gospel as taught in the NT. He doesn't spend a lot of time on 1888. Like I said, it is self-evident that the church rejected the 1888 message because the church at large is confused on the gospel - the "in Christ" motiff. And yes Jones and Waggoner taught that truth....

I firmly believe that God raised up the SDA church to restore the gospel. When the gospel is fully restored within this church it will cause a shaking. Those who remain will be backed by the Spirit of God and proclaim the third angel's message with power. Those who leave join Babylon because their hearts were already joined with them.

When those honest believers within Babylon in the other denominations hear the restored gospel they will join together. Now the remnant is formed....

Robert

[Robert]

"The work which the church has failed to do [i.e., restore the gospel] in a time of peace and prosperity, she will have to do in a terrible crisis, under most discouraging, forbidding, circumstances.

The warnings that worldly conformity [the principle of Babylon] has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren, and to excite indignation." EGW

[gina i]

Amazing Discoveries - the Jesuit infiltration aside (I mean can it be proven, can it not).. I think they do amazing wonderful things. Yeah they're conservative, yeah they go against the norm.. But I guess I like that school of thinking. Going against the grain, not being bottled as typical Adventists. I think Walter Veith is a cut & dry speaker & points out many interesting things that we just brush aside as garbage. Just my 2 cents though:)

Now if you really want to get down and dirty, look at the Sheperds Rod & their infiltration in our churches, subtly.. and Hope International? Yeah.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: John317

All I can say is that there is no question that Jones and Waggoner's message was of God and that the church could have been in heaven by 1890 if it had accepted it.

But Jesus came preaching, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand. It is within/among you. As i understand the gospel, God is not in the business of 'saving' groups or denominations. Everyone one must have their personal relationship with Him. Not a vicarious relationship through some denomination.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Have you compared the 1888 message as given by Waggoner and Jones and Ellen White with what Sequeira teaches?

Jack's emphasis is on the gospel as taught in the NT. He doesn't spend a lot of time on 1888. Like I said, it is self-evident that the church rejected the 1888 message because the church at large is confused on the gospel - the "in Christ" motiff. And yes Jones and Waggoner taught that truth....

I firmly believe that God raised up the SDA church to restore the gospel. Robert

I've studied the 1888 message quite a bit both by reading Ellen White comments about it and by reading what Jones and Waggoner wrote and said about that time. I'd love to see a study done that simply attempts to describe and define that message.

I agree with you about the SDA church being raised up to restore the gospel. Another way of saying that is that it was raised up to restore the truth that was taken away by the "daily" spoken of in Daniel 8: 9-11.

[John317]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: John317

All I can say is that there is no question that Jones and Waggoner's message was of God and that the church could have been in heaven by 1890 if it had accepted it.

But Jesus came preaching, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand. It is within/among you. As i understand the gospel, God is not in the business of 'saving' groups or denominations. Everyone one must have their personal relationship with Him. Not a vicarious relationship through some denomination.

The Kingdom of God was among them in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus was "God with us." He still is.

Jesus was not preaching that the kingdom of heaven was inside, or within, them.

You are right that God is not in the business of saving groups or denominations. He is saving a church. Just as in the time of ancient Israel, God is gathering a church in order to give the message of salvation to the world. Everyone has always had to have a personal relationship with God. That has been the case since the time of the Fall. But that in no way denies the importance of the church or the fact that God is raising up and saving a church.

[D. Allan]

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Now if you really want to get down and dirty, look at the Sheperds Rod & their infiltration in our churches, subtly.. and Hope International? Yeah.

In my home church before I moved away, some people influenced by Hope International and Our Firm Foundation, tried to take over the church. Sab.Sch. was after the sermon. The pastor would leave to go preach in another church and these persons would be up on the rostrum contradicting what the pastor had just preached. We had about 60 - 70 people attending, many from a recent evangelistic seminar. The church was split, many left. The churches morale suffered. Recently we went back for a visit. There were about a dozen people there.

~d.allan

[D. Allan]

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Jesus was not preaching that the kingdom of heaven was inside, or within, them.

Would you agree that He was preaching, 'the kingdom of heaven is among you, in your midst?' The kingdom of heaven He said was at hand. So can we say that it still is? That is it is still operative here in this world now...that we need not wait for a future time to enter into that kingdom...that we can choose to be a part of it, to be within it now?

[Neil D]

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I don't know if the Jesuits have infiltrated the Seventh-day Adventist Church or not. I don't have any real convictions one way or the other about it. But I think two questions and the answers to them bring up some interesting possibilities.

The two questions I pose are: (1) Have the Jesuits ever infiltrated organizations such as the Adventist church? And (2) Have the Jesuits any motive for wanting to infiltrate the Adventist church?

Without question, I think only a positive answer can rightly be given to those questions.

Oh brother.... So, in summery, the problem as to why Jesus is not here yet is because someone or someones in the church is spreading false doctrine and our people are believing it, causing our people to behave wrongly in God's sight. IOWS, it's not ***MY FAULT** that Jesus isn't here, because **I KNOW** I believe the truth. It's someone else's fault.

If ever there was a problem in our church, it is our obsession of our own justification. The true problem in our church is our inability to accept that it is our fault that Jesus is not here. Our problem is that we can not rely on Jesus' mercy for OUR FAULTS. We can not take responsibility for our behavior because it would cause some sort of problems within our psychie. Hey guys, let me clue you in on a couple of simple facts....We are human...We live in a sinfilled world that we can not get out of...We are gonna make mistakes. Try not to, but nevertheless, move on with life.

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I am not saying the Jesuits have infiltrated the Seventh-day Adventist church. I am merely saying that the idea may not be so far fetched or crazy as some people seem to think.

To think, I used to believe in this stuff! Let's see...SDAs are "the fastest growing church in the protestant world" I think someone not too long ago posted....Well, I have a problem with that....That growth figure is outside my area of being able to confirm....And what my few reliable sources tell me is that most of the growth is outside of North America, in fact, outside of Western Countrys... So, places like Canada, US, Australia, Europe, Japan, S. Korea,...all of these places have flat growth figures...IOWS, we aint growing..we are almost replacing the many that go out...

The only place where we are growing is the spanish speaking countrys, but those countries come from a Catholic background

and the general population is dissatisfied with religion there anyway. And what we are reaping there is still not enough to make a serious dent in the catholic population.

So, why again is the Catholic church so interested in the SDA church???

I am sorry, but this promotion of sda myths is just .....a stinking insidious lie.... one that panders to a mythical belief system that denies reality. Jesuits infiltrating the leadership of the SDA church because we 'hold the truth that undermines the catholic church'? Oh please, don't stroke my religious ego... That is what got the human race into the current situation...believing a lie...

[John317]

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I don't know if the Jesuits have infiltrated the Seventh-day Adventist Church or not. I don't have any real convictions one way or the other about it. But I think two questions and the answers to them bring up some interesting possibilities.

The two questions I pose are: (1) Have the Jesuits ever infiltrated organizations such as the Adventist church? And (2) Have the Jesuits any motive for wanting to infiltrate the Adventist church?

Without question, I think only a positive answer can rightly be given to those questions.

I don't think the reason Jesus has not yet come is because people cannot move on with life. Too many move on, all right, and without any serious consideration for God. The reason Jesus hasn't come yet is that as a church we have not responded to the message Jesus sent to the Church of Laodocea in Revelation 3: 14-22 and we neither grasped nor accepted and practiced the Three Angel's Messages of Rev. 14 6-12 and Rev. 18:1. The reason we have not is that Satan has succeeded in getting us side-tracked and deceived in many ways, and among those deceptive, false doctrines are a lack of confidence in the gift of prophecy, in the teaching about the pre-advent judgment, and in the righteousness of Christ.

What we don't realize is that God is not waiting for things to happen in the world in order for Jesus to come. What the Father and Jesus are waiting for is for His church to let Him form His character in us. But there are just so many things getting in the way, and that includes false teachings and allowing our attention to get off-focus.

[Neil D]

[bevin]

There are FIVE factors that need to be considered

1. Is there an OPPORTUNITY for the Jesuits to infiltrate?

2. Is there a MOTIVE for it?

3. Is there a COST to it?

4. Is there something they could do instead?

5. Are the Jesuits smart enough to act rationally?

Yes, there is an opportunity.

Not really, the SDA church is not having a significant affect on the Roman Catholic Church or society in general.

Yes - the scandal if they got caught would be immensely damaging to the Roman Catholic Church.

Yes, they could do honorable things to further their churches mission - like, for instance, promote intellectual integrity.

Yes, they have shown that they do think through their actions.

SUMMARY: The Jesuits are not stupid enough to make this mistake just because it is possible to make it.

/Bevin

[John317]

There are FIVE factors that need to be considered

1. Is there an OPPORTUNITY for the Jesuits to infiltrate?

2. Is there a MOTIVE for it?

3. Is there a COST to it?

4. Is there something they could do instead?

5. Are the Jesuits smart enough to act rationally?

Yes, there is an opportunity.

Quote:

Not really, the SDA church is not having a significant affect on the Roman Catholic Church or society in general.

The Catholic Church is already influencing the Adventist church without infiltrating it through Jesuit agents. Read the decisions that came out of Vatican II concerning what it wanted to have happen in the church services of Protestant churches. Also consider the Catholic views of prophecy, particularly Daniel and Revelation.

Both Futurist interpretations and Preterist interpretations are dominant among Protestants, and it is worthy of notice that these were both developed by Catholic scholars, Ribera and Alcazar, as responses to the Reformation's view of the Pope and the Catholic Church as the little horn power of Daniel 7,8, and first beast of Revelation 13. Adventists are not the only ones who recognize this. (See Merrill C. Tenney's Interpretating Revelation, p. 136 and The Blessed Hope by George Eldon Ladd, pp. 37-40.)

Futurist interpretations have recently begun to be considered even among Adventist circles. It is part of that view that holds Antiochus Epiphanes as the little horn of Daniel 8:9, etc. Even though the evidence is overwhelming that Antiochus cannot possibly be the fulfilment of that prophecy, the argument still is made by virtually all scholars, and even now beginning to be heard among some SDAs.

It should be noted, too, that in some areas of the world, the Catholic Church cannot be thrilled with the results of Seventh-day Adventist evangelistic campaigns and Adventist literature. History shows that the Catholic church would like to cause Protestants to forget what prophecy says about the pope; and to a large degree, except for Seventh-day Adventists, they have succeeded. History also proves the the Catholic Church would like people to stop keeping the weekly Sabbath. They are aware that the Seventh-day Adventist church is the largest Protestant church keeping the Sabbath and teaching others to do the same. The Adventist church is about 15 million strong and getting stronger by the week. Millions being added are former Catholics. It can't make the Devil very happy but there is song in heaven over even one that is saved. Thousands are added to God's commandment-keeping, remnant church every day, praise God!!

The Roman Catholic Church knows that people have short memories and that if they got caught doing it, it would be of little importance to most people. Besides, the Catholic Church and the Papacy have weathered many more far greater scandals than would happen if they got caught infiltrating a church.

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Yes, they could do honorable things to further their churches mission - like, for instance, promote intellectual integrity.

Jesuits are great scholars, perhaps some of the greatest in the world when it comes to things that benefit them. But when it comes to defending the Papacy and the Catholic Church, they can't be depended on to tell the whole truth, such explaining what prophecy says. From their inception, their objective has been to smother the truth and to cause confusion and misunderstanding among Protestants as far as prophecy is concerned. (See GC 234, 565, 566; also study Revelation 12 to 18.)

I am not saying that I believe the Jesuits have infiltrated the Adventist church. I am simply saying that, given their history and what their objectives are, I would not be shocked if it was proven that they had done so.

[John317]

Quote:

Now if you really want to get down and dirty, look at the Sheperds Rod & their infiltration in our churches, subtly.. and Hope International? Yeah.

In my home church before I moved away, some people influenced by Hope International and Our Firm Foundation, tried to take over the church. Sab.Sch. was after the sermon. The pastor would leave to go preach in another church and these persons would be up on the rostrum contradicting what the pastor had just preached. We had about 60 - 70 people attending, many from a recent evangelistic seminar. The church was split, many left. The churches morale suffered. Recently we went back for a visit. There were about a dozen people there.

~d.allan

There is a shaking going on in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. People are being shaken in and out. The truth must be preached in love, but it must be preached and it must be preached powerfully and strongly and straightforwardly, even if some people's feelings are hurt in the process. In the case you refer to, it could be the pastor was not preaching the truth. If he was not preaching the truth, someone needed to do it. Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword. Sometimes the truth separates. I am not saying this is what happened at your church but it could be. It's not necessarily a good thing for there to be unity if that unity is based on false teachings. One person knowing and standing on truth is better than a thousand believing and standing on error. That is not a popular teaching, I know, but it is Biblical.