Those who have left the Church

[Stan]

we find it easier to go after those who have chosen, systematically to leave the Church and not seek to help those who are eagerly seeking out an understanding of God.

There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it.

[Guest]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Stan Jensen said:

we find it easier to go after those who have chosen, systematically to leave the Church and not seek to help those who are eagerly seeking out an understanding of God.

There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">nor do we talk about the fact that our interpretation of "3 angels message" is tenuous.....

[Gerr]

Let's hear what you consider is tenuous about the SDA understanding of what the 3 angels' messages are.

Gerry

[olger]

We counseled with a man & his wife a while back. He was very bitter at the church and hadn't attended for over two years. He made this statement in our office (with tears) "The church has done nothing but hurt me."

We accepted him where he was at and helped him see that the church is made up of people (good & bad alike). Matthew 13;47-48.

We led him in a prayer to Jesus for healing the pain and he chose to pay the price of the pain that others had caused him. He released them.

A month later, I received a letter from his wife. She said "Guess who went to church yesterday?" I knew who she meant.

She said "Not only that, he went around and hugged every person who was there."

That's what freedom looks like,

olger

[LifeHiscost]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Stan Jensen said:

....focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who(have rejected it LHC) reject it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/amen2.gif" alt="" />

(Hope that addition meets with your approval, Stan.LHC)

Not because God doesn't love those who turn away from His message. But because He wishes to get this work done down here so perversity can be eliminated from what would otherwise be a perfect universe, and He wishes our work to be fruitful for the kingdom.

[:"red"] "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit" [/] John 15:5 NASB

[:"red"] "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" [/] Matthew 24:14 KJV

[:"red"] "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

" [/] Matthew 10:14 NASB

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Stan Jensen said:

we find it easier to go after those who have chosen, systematically to leave the Church and not seek to help those who are eagerly seeking out an understanding of God.

There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I know it is easy to assume that all who are members of the Adventist church know and understand the three angels messages. I don't think that is necessarily the case though. A person can *hear* all sorts of things - that doesn't mean they understand it.

When I left the church I didn't leave because I was rejecting the three angels' messages. I had no clue what the three angels' messages were. To be honest, if someone were to ask me now what the messages are, I STILL have no idea, other than they are in Revelation, and that it has something to do with spreading the gospel. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Stan]

Part of my point is this......

I have been on several Church boards over the years.

When we plan this, the first goal is often to visit those who are no longer members or inactive. Yeah, we can kind of talk down to these people, after all they..... etc etc

To often we fail to go after the 'others', well they may challenge us and and and well what if we can not answer..

Several who have left, need a time of healing, and a change of local leadership, not all by any means.

We can debate with those who 'left' that can talk all our time because we know we are 'right' , and it is usually not effective anyway...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Around two years ago, while I was still flying around on my broom []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_rolleyes.gif[/], I noticed an ad in the Adventist Review on how to *reconnect* with former SDA's. It said that if someone sent in x number of names and addresses of former Adventists then he/she would receive a free video on the correct way to reconnect with these [derelict] former members.

The ad really ticked me off. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> First off, I did NOT want my name nor address sent off to ANYONE remotely Adventisty. (I had visions of an Adventist variation of the Jehovah Witness foot-in-the-door-can't-get-rid-of-them song and dance. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ) The second thing is that the ad reminded me of when, as a kid, we used to send in cereal boxtops for free stuff. And here was this ad as much as saying *Send us the names, and we'll send you the games!*

And ever after, whenever I read about the evangelism of former SDA's, my thoughts go instantly to *Boxtop Christianity.* <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[olger]

"There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it."

Excellent point. In many cases we need to let them go, and focus on those who are ready to accept truth. Failure to make this distinction has resulted in some paralysis of the church. I believe that it's time to change this.

olger

[Dr. Shane]

I think the intentions are good but it is emotionally driven, not intellectually. The Catholic church does the same thing. These ex-members are, in many cases, family and friends and we long for them to be in fellowship with us again. However the sad reality is that if they have chosen another path, we may just have to let them walk it.

[cricket]

When seeking out "lost" souls, aren't we really seeking to stop a leak? Find out what went wrong. Patch it up. Save that soul that went through the cracks. Repair the hole. Make it stronger than it was before. Firm the foundation.

[LifeHiscost]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Cricket said:

When seeking out "lost" souls, aren't we really seeking to stop a leak? Find out what went wrong. Patch it up. Save that soul that went through the cracks. Repair the hole. Make it stronger than it was before. Firm the foundation.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I would say very good intentions. However it seems Rudywoofs reaction to Adventists at a time when she was wanting, but not necessarily desiring that want met by well meaning Adventists, reveals a wealth of understanding about what to do when individuals are still certain it is the fault of others that has caused them so much grief.

Cheers!

[bevin]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Why do you think that leaving the SDA church is equivalent to rejecting the 3 Angels Messages?

The absolutely most frustrating part about leaving the SDA church is the realization that even the fact that there are more ex-SDA than SDA in North America has not made the denomination wake up and consider the possibility that there are some aspects of the doctrine and standard taught life-style that should be changed.

/Bevin

[cricket]

Right. Find out what went wrong--and fix it.

[Gerr]

Stan, can you move Claborn's reply on the 3 angels' messages to the "What SDAs Believe" section so that it can be discussed without hijacking this thread?

Gerry

[Stan]

Done <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good idea

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

there are more ex-SDA than SDA in North America

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

wow. Is that really true?? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

Stan, can you move Claborn's reply on the 3 angels' messages to the "What SDAs Believe" section so that it can be discussed without hijacking this thread?

Gerry

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">sorry, that was not my intent.... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" />

[bevin]

http://www.adventiststatistics.org/view_Summary.asp?FieldID=D_NAD

Summing the apostasies and missing from 1965 to 2005 leads to a conservative estimate of 509,000 ex-SDA

Of course some of these are dead, but then again this isn't counting the children who were never on the rolls, nor does it count the many on the rolls who have not attended in years

It would appear there are about 1M SDA on the rolls, of whom maybe 5% should be counted as 'missing', 400K ex-SDA easily accounted for, and (given the loss rate of youth) my guess is about another 200-400K of youth who were never on the rolls.

So ex-SDA and SDA are similar numbers in the NAD today.

/Bevin

[cricket]

One million (not counting the children who are not on the rolls) less five percent is 950,000 (again not counting the children who are not on the rolls).

400,000 easily accounted for, plus the 50,000 from those above is 450,000.

There is still not enough information to estimate how many children are still not on the rolls and who ARE attending the churches.

So far, the math doesn't compute.

[LifeHiscost]

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Cricket said:

Right. Find out what went wrong--and fix it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

It is evident from numerous biblical examples, until a person wants to be "fixed", even God Himself does not move in on that individual to "fix" them, though the desire to "help' is admirable.

[:"red"] "For every man shall bear his own burden.

" [/] Gal 6:5 KJV

However, I do believe that in every situation going wrong, if we have a desire to shoulder the possibility that we might be able to help by admitting our own changed behavior could work for the benefit of others, we at least have a chance for influencing someone for the better.

[:"red"] "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ." [/] Gal 6:1,2 KJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[LifeHiscost]

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bevin said:

So ex-SDA and SDA are similar numbers in the NAD today.

/Bevin

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

It seems to me it is mistake to assess the NAD as the Seventh Day Adventist church. We are told in the SOP that many would go out as the Lord's coming grew close, with others taking their place. It didn't say where the geographical location was that replacements came from. Adding a million a year from other countries reveals the church every bit as strong and stronger than it has been in the past.

[:"red"] "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;It will not return to Me empty,Without accomplishing what I desire,And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." [/] Isaiah 55:11 NASB

[:"red"] "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine." [/] 2 Timothy 4:1 KJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[cricket]

When I say find out what went wrong and fix it, I mean: find out what we (the congregation) did wrong and fix it. I didn't mean we should try to fix whatever's "wrong" with the lost individual.

[Neil D]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

what went wrong and fix it,

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

First identify what when wrong.....

We are dealing with people who left the SDA organization. Why did they leave?

My personal opinion is that we know why the people who we are in contact with left.... Our own personal experiences are fresh with why people left...Ask yourself why someone in your congregation left...and you will know the answer on how to bring them back....

I think that we, the congregation of the SDA church, have not formed strong bonds of association. The members of the congregations have not formed bonds of friendship. Individuals have not sacrificed the time to help their fellow member with action...Sure, we talk a good game, but we have not physically moved our keester to help our fellow church members. IOWs, if a brother needs a roof reroofed, but doesn't have the money, we dont tell him that we can help him complete the job. We mention some feble platitude of "Well, the Lord will help you in His time."

If we know of a couple in the church whose marriage is becoming rocky due to some problems [monetary, behavioral, emotional, ect], we don't want to listen to the sad, anger producing stories of betrayal and mistrust. We have other things of import to do, ie church basketball game to perform in, watch tv with family members, ect.

We [the sda church] have members with [ahem] good intentions who have toxic behavior patterns. These are the social people who talk about what is happening in other people's [usually church members] lives. AAAaaannd, of course, whatever they tell you is ...confidential...and not to be broadcast about. While some of this information is useful, these same "confidential" members don't do anything with the information to help the person they are talking about. And they are willing to talk about the next round of problems that occur in that "poor SDA's" life.

We seem more interested in spiritualizing the problems in our lives than doing good things. Our lives are crowed with things that MUST be done...and we don't take the time to pri-oritize things that would have a more positive personal impact on the church members. It is my opinion that we don't know how to live.

So, take that opinion for what it is worth...just my opinion...

[Gerr]

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons..." 1 Tim 4:1 NKJ.

Gerry