Those who have left the Church

[JoeMo]

It should be up to the student, once they have enough info to make an intelligent choice between non-divine evolution, divine-guided evolution, and special 6-day creation. What you believe in your religion should not cause outright unconditional dismissal of the brilliance behind current evolutionary thought. Everybody will make different decisions somewhere within the spectrum defined above based on their world view, education, and experience. I know I have been rethinking a lot lately.

[cardw]

In light of why people leave the church I think Ruth Hurmence Green has an interesting story of someone who left in their 60s.

The Iowa native received a journalism degree from Texas Tech in 1935, married, had three children, and settled in Missouri. Ruth, a "half-hearted Methodist," first plodded through the bible when convalescing from cancer in her early sixties, calling the shock she suffered from reading the book worse than the trauma caused by her illness. "There wasn't a page of the bible that didn't offend me in some way. There is no other book between whose covers life is so cheap," Ruth discovered, prompting her to write the enduring modern freethought classic, The Born Again Skeptic's Guide to the Bible (1979).

In the book's Preface, Ruth wrote: "I am now convinced that children should not be subjected to the frightfulness of the Christian religion. . . . If the concept of a father who plots to have his own son put to death is presented to children as beautiful and as worthy of society's admiration, what types of human behavior can be presented to them as reprehensible?”

[CoAspen]

Quote:

If the concept of a father who plots to have his own son put to death......

An incorrect understanding and reading of the Genesis story, not sure how she arrived at that.

The Bible talks of it as a unified decision to pay the penalty of 'sin' in order to save humans.

I'm shocked at her misunderstanding and words "There wasn't a page of the bible that didn't offend me in some way." I work with cancer patients on a daily basis and know first hand of what often happens to a persons perception of events and others. Quite possibly she had doubts about God before and the cancer only reinforced that. What was the reason for 'plodding' through the Bible and what did she mean by 'plodding'? A person is within their right to read and review literature or a book, but to find something completely opposite of the content 'on every page'...well...not exactly someone i would give validity too.

'..enduring modern free thought classic.....'

Come now! You can better and more believable support for your position....right?

[debbym]

I agree that relational issues are the root of why people leave.

My recent study in Hebrews lead me to believe it is because of a root of bitterness.

sometimes the root of bitterness is in the members and they cause trouble for others, who then leave, while the bitter members remain members. Sometimes it is the ones who leave who carry the bitter root.

i am realizing i have bitterness, well hidden, mostly from myself. and i am seeking The Lord to remove it all from my heart. I believe it causes more trouble and more interference to my relationships then any other cause. I am so thankful God is making it known to me, so it can be dealt with. What a miracle.

Hebrews 12 is powerful.

i hope i will be able to much more powerfully contribute to a non toxic church family environment. i hope my joy will be greater and purer and without any pretense of any kind. I believe the Lord wants transparency of me. I hope we do not lose any members from our little church family because of my course.

and i think this is also something that needs to be cleaned up so new members can come in and not be poisoned and leave.

debbym

[Restin]

I was raised an SDA, went to an SDA academy grades 1-12. Nevertheless, I had a nervous breakdown in my twenties, and totally no help from church members except to add guilt to the crisis by saying, "there must be some sin you're cherishing that God can't heal you." No comment could be worse than that for someone suffering from mental illness.

So, I left religion, became agnostic, went into therapy and read many books on psychology; Gradually, I felt God helping me sort out and overcome my problems step by step, and eventually came back to the church 15 yrs. later with a deeper experience.

The shame is that people have to go outside the Adventist faith to find help with mental health issues. There were no SDA therapists in the town of over 600,000 where I lived, nor at the 4 main hospitals!

[phkrause]

You did for a while. There was Pastor Roberta Fish, who I believe has since retired, just before I moved back to Mass, with her Pastor husband.

[debbym]

i found my church also critical and judgmental of emotional and mental suffering.

so i am here and motivated to change that. Here in my church family it is different now.

i think we have lost lots of members through failure to give love and support to those so struggling.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

We counseled with a man & his wife a while back. He was very bitter at the church and hadn't attended for over two years. He made this statement in our office (with tears) "The church has done nothing but hurt me."

We accepted him where he was at and helped him see that the church is made up of people (good & bad alike). Matthew 13;47-48.

We led him in a prayer to Jesus for healing the pain and he chose to pay the price of the pain that others had caused him. He released them.

A month later, I received a letter from his wife. She said "Guess who went to church yesterday?" I knew who she meant.

She said "Not only that, he went around and hugged every person who was there."

That's what freedom looks like,

olge

I'd rather put this on __________but better to repeat it here than let it die, because it tells a story beyond religion and reveals a life given to the King. No apologies, no regrets, only a life receiving what Jesus is willing to give any of us, any day we're willing to drop our pride and invite the Strength in that cannot fail.

"Each time he said, “My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness.” So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me. 10 That’s why I take pleasure in my weaknesses, and in the insults, hardships, persecutions, and troubles that I suffer for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Corinthians 12:9-11 NLT

Thanks Og, for the testimony.

God cares!

[olger]

Welcome, Brother.

[joeb]

i found my church also critical and judgmental of emotional and mental suffering.

so i am here and motivated to change that. Here in my church family it is different now.

i think we have lost lots of members through failure to give love and support to those so struggling.

I don't think this, your first sentence, is restricted to Adventism or Christianity in general. It's a human condition as many people outside of Christianity are also very critical and judgmental with respect to emotional/mental issues.

I agree that this needs to change inside the church, but it's only possible through the re-creative power of God for it's a "self" problem, and only God can change our inner motivations. We can shine a light on it, but education alone will never change anyone's heart.

[joeb]

i am realizing i have bitterness, well hidden, mostly from myself. and i am seeking The Lord to remove it all from my heart. I believe it causes more trouble and more interference to my relationships then any other cause. I am so thankful God is making it known to me, so it can be dealt with. What a miracle.

It is a miracle. He's doing the same with me. This type of healing is one reason I believe God can change us into people who will keep His law, and who will continually obey Him, even in our thoughts and impulses.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I believe the Lord wants transparency of me.

I'm satisfied your conclusion is the prompting of the Holy Spirit in order that you won't in-ostensibly succumb to bearing false witness, which can sometimes in succeeding, bring opposition to your transparency.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The shame is that people have to go outside the Adventist faith to find help with mental health issues.

One doesn't have to if they see Jesus as the best and most capable Person to help us with our psychological difficulties. It is true that one needs first to know Him as their best Friend.

God cares!

[Grammy]

Speaking as a third-generation SDA who left the church some 20 years ago, I need to say that in the first few posts on this thread several suggested that if someone has left the church, "let them go!" My own experience was that after 5 decades as an SDA and almost 20 years in denominational employment, we stopped attending the Adventist Church (where we had lived and were active members for 8 years), and apparently nobody cared. To this day, almost 20 years later, no one (not even the pastor) has EVER contacted us to see if we were OK or to learn why we decided to leave the church and go elsewhere. To me this is a sad commentary on a church that claims to have "The Truth" and be God's "Remnant." Somehow they do not compute.

We left Adventism for a variety of reasons, primarily doctrinal issues, extreme exclusivism, and the high level of regard for and dependence on Ellen White's writings, almost to the point of evaluating them above the Bible. We are not bitter or angry, but I am still amazed that our departure went unnoticed. This could NEVER happen to any member of the church we currently attend (yes, on Sundays), where the Savior is worshiped, where truth is taught exclusively from the Bible, and people are unusually loving and take care of each other.

I just thought perhaps you might like to hear this from the perspective of one who's been there and done that.

God bless!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

(yes, on Sundays)

Hi Grammy. Considering that Biblically you've mentioned one of those links in the chain of God's commands that when the Word "remember" is ignored, it renders the rest of the chain useless. I'm wondering if there is any part of the Word for which you would be willing to die rather than deviate.

"...but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law."

James 2:9-11 NKJV

God cares!

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

The shame is that people have to go outside the Adventist faith to find help with mental health issues.

One doesn't have to if they see Jesus as the best and most capable Person to help us with our psychological difficulties. It is true that one needs first to know Him as their best Friend.

God cares!

That might be one of the most irresponsible statements I have ever read.

[CoAspen]

But not an unusual response. Thankfully it is only a very small minority that still feel that way. Just hope no one who truly needs mental health treatment would fail to seek out the health care they needed because of such "ideas".

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Resident Pagan

would give understanding as to your response.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

But not an unusual response. Thankfully it is only a very small minority that still feel that way. Just hope no one who truly needs mental health treatment would fail to seek out the health care they needed because of such "ideas".

It is only a small percentage of the world's population who accept that Jesus' touch still heals, and the intelligentsia for the most part, have never felt that He could do much without them.

God cares!

[BobRyan]

we find it easier to go after those who have chosen, systematically to leave the Church and not seek to help those who are eagerly seeking out an understanding of God.

There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it.

Good point. And as a recent study shows the leading reason for leaving the church is doctrinal confusion of the members leaving. There is indeed rejection of the 3 Angel's messages in the cases of a certain percentage of those leaving.

No need to chase them down with the 3 Angel's messages - better to proclaim it well - and let them see that there are those who will come in - and accept it.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

The shame is that people have to go outside the Adventist faith to find help with mental health issues.

One doesn't have to if they see Jesus as the best and most capable Person to help us with our psychological difficulties. It is true that one needs first to know Him as their best Friend.

God cares!

Good point.

However an atheist or agnostic is not likely to agree that there is such a benefit in Christ - since they don't think He exists.

You knew that I assume.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

Resident Pagan

would give understanding as to your response.

God cares!

Not really. And not very likely to give understanding as to the "why" of the response.

(See following...)

[Tom Wetmore]

Good point.

However an atheist or agnostic is not likely to agree that there is such a benefit in Christ - since they don't think He exists.

You knew that I assume.

in Christ,

Bob

True to a point, but not just atheists and agnostics (or pagans) are likely to agree.

As CoAspen suggested, even among Christians getting care from a qualified mental health professional is not only acceptable and appropriate, it is the responsible thing to do. Most Christians, and Adventists for that matter, think nothing of going to a medical doctor for healing and treatment of a physical malady. But the stigma and misunderstanding of psychological disorders is still in this modern age wrongly perceived as just a spiritual defect or weakness that needs only to be exercised like a demon.

This is not about doubting the infinite power of God to heal anything. After all, we do believe He can, has, and will raise the dead. But this side of that Great Day, he has also imparted great knowledge, wisdom and science to us as humans to help overcome the effects of the sin that we all experience, be they physical or psychological. Just as it would be irresponsible to not go to the doctor to treat an infection or broken bone or heart disease or diabetes, etc., it is just as irresponsible to not avail ourselves of scientifically established remedies for our psychological maladies. God has enabled those remedies as modern miracles of a scientific nature, just as we more easily characterize modern medicine as a marvel, if not a miracle of science.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

One doesn't have to if they see Jesus as the best and most capable Person to help us with our psychological difficulties. It is true that one needs first to know Him as their best Friend.

God cares!

Good point.

However an atheist or agnostic is not likely to agree that there is such a benefit in Christ - since they don't think He exists.

You knew that I assume.

in Christ,

Bob

There is a person I have known for upwards of 36 years, who has placed herself in confidence of the medical community as well as having a deep love for Jesus.

During that time there has been spent somewhere between $100,000 and $200,000 dollars to maintain her health. There is no doubt she has benefited from the doctor's services, at least once her life being saved as a result of their care. Generally speaking I would say whenever she visits a doctor she has about a 50/50 chance she will come out better or worse, and daily she suffers pain as a result of mistakes leading to complications another physician had to correct.

During those years there has been only one doctor who apologized for a mistake he made, leading to the necessity of corrective surgery, which he corrected himself. Unlike a mechanic there was no money back guarantee if the services did not meet up with expectations.

OTOH, during that same period of time, I know a man who made a promise to Jesus that if He would take care of his health, the money he would normally spend for health insurance would be used to share the message of a loving Savior. The same viscitudes of life surrounded the man as surrounded the woman, but each time the man went through difficult circumstances that, if the medical community had been given the responsibility to repair the damage, not only would it have been extremely expensive but it would also have been highly inconvenient physically, and emotionally untenable for the best well being of those for whom the man was responsible.

Needless to say both individuals were and are being taken care of by a loving God, Jesus by name. On the one hand it just takes a lot more money and pain. The other seems to fit right into the promises of a soon coming Savior.

"Wait and listen, everyone who is thirsty! Come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Yes, come, buy [priceless, spiritual] wine and milk without money and without price [simply for the self-surrender that accepts the blessing]." brackets their's LHC

Isaiah 55:1 AMP

God cares!

[Tom Wetmore]

Would be curious to know specifics of their respective health challenges/issues. Without that, we are left only to speculate a thousand and one possibilities for either person with or without sufficient similarities to merit a fair comparison.