Those who have left the Church

August 8, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons..." 1 Tim 4:1 NKJ.

Gerry

Sorry, Gerry,....When most of the people leave due to relationship more than doctrinal problems, I doubt very much the application of this verse....

August 9, 2006

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Neil D said:

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what went wrong and fix it,

First identify what when wrong.....

Seems to me that if we were following God's direction when we came into the church, we wouldn't be leaving under anyone else's direction, including our own, unless, of course, we've found someone who is wiser than He.

[:"red"] "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;

and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

"He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me." [/] Matt 10:34-40 NASB Emph their's

August 9, 2006

the reality is we have no idea why people leave the church, and we cannot assume that everyone left for the same reason... I think we would have to start by asking that person why they left... and then go from there...

August 10, 2006

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the reality is we have no idea why people leave the church, and we cannot assume that everyone left for the same reason..

Having done some study in this area, I would have to disagree with you. We DO have a very good idea why people leave this church...And it's not over doctrinal issues...It's over relationships with in the church.

It only goes to show that while we KNOW what the truth is, that important information has not made much of an impact upon our individual cores. WE CONSISTANTLY SCREW UP OUR RELATIONSHIPS, both between ourselves and between ourselves and our God.

Tis a good thing our salvation is not determined by our relationship....Oh, wait...maybe it is....!!! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

August 10, 2006

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Neil D said:

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the reality is we have no idea why people leave the church, and we cannot assume that everyone left for the same reason..

Having done some study in this area, I would have to disagree with you. We DO have a very good idea why people leave this church...And it's not over doctrinal issues...It's over relationships with in the church.

It only goes to show that while we KNOW what the truth is, that important information has not made much of an impact upon our individual cores. WE CONSISTANTLY SCREW UP OUR RELATIONSHIPS, both between ourselves and between ourselves and our God.

Tis a good thing our salvation is not determined by our relationship....Oh, wait...maybe it is....!!! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

so you are suggesting that everyone leaves the church because of relationships? No not everyone... but many... I agree our relationships can be and often are toxic....

August 10, 2006

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so you are suggesting that everyone leaves the church because of relationships? No not everyone... but many... I agree our relationships can be and often are toxic....

"Everyone leaves because of relationships"? No,...not everyone leaves because of relationships....There are a few, very few, who leave due to disagreement over doctrine... However, the great majority of those that do leave, is due to bad relationships. They get onto responsible positions, and someone says something bad about that person and they leave...

It is amazing to me that while we have THE TRUTH, we don't take it to our core beings and live it... There is error on many sides in our relationships and we don't understand it.

August 12, 2006

As someone who has left the church, reading this shows me a definite lack of understanding and tolerance by the church of others.

Not everyone who leaves the SDA church is rejecting the 3 Angels message. Not everyone who leaves has left the faith, that is the faith and testimony of Jesus Christ. The assumption that the SDA church has all the answers is just that an assumption, we denigh the power of God to do marvelous things in the lives of those who love him, that actually to save someone taking them out of a toxic environment (the SDA Church) could be the best thing for them. Let me just clarify not all SDA's are toxic, not all SDA's think the same, not all SDA's even know who God is for themselves. These issues affect all denominations.

Bevin makes a very good point, whilst he may not have hard facts, all you have to do is think about the number of people that are baptised at any baptism and consider the number of them that actually stay in church. Often the majority of those baptised leave, many slip off the books without notice, many leave at different stages and many come and go and don't actually get baptised.

The efforts to win souls for Christ need to be threefold

1: A Strategy for new converts (preferably small groups and community based activities that actually provide support the the variety of issues the local community faces.

2: A strategy for current members, providing support for all needs, spiritual, physical, emotional, mental and social needs. (There may be some that I have missed out. Promoting the application of spiritual gifts in the choosing of offices and providing community support. Often the membership are spiritually dying because they are not living in their God given purpose. They live by tradition and people pleasing, politics and power. Sad but true.

3: A strategy for customer retention!! Yes people will leave it is inevitable, but we do very little to prevent this. Neil is right relationship has a lot to do with the reason for people leaving. Many leave hurt and scarred by their church.

One other issue is that we don't really believe in God's saving power and so instead of looking for his leading in our efforts we do things in our own strength. We denigh the power there of and spend time and effort attempting to convert and convince those of other denominations to our way of thinking instead of concentrating on the billions of people who still don't know who Jesus is. The SDA church is by no means the only denomination guilty of this.

So there you have my views on this. We need to seek God first, be willing to look at ourselves through his eyes, walk with him to make the changes in us that make us like him and then our characters alone will be soul magnets for him.

Please remember I was born and bred in the SDA church it has been my life for over 35 years. That I choose to no longer call myself an SDA is God led, that I choose to walk where God takes me is lead by him alone.

Blessings

Fifiqueen X

August 12, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons..." 1 Tim 4:1 NKJ.

Gerry

The above reference is now a past event what Paul termed the "falling away".

People who leave the SDA church do not necessarily fit this description. The fruits of what you are seeing today comes from years of preaching legalism.

August 12, 2006

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Neil D said:...the great majority of those that do leave, is due to bad relationships.

But why? Please read Gal 5:13

"You, my brothers, were called to be free [context: free from legalistic requirements]. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."

Legalism produces division... self-righteous cliques/camps. Believe me, there were many in the SDA church that I attended some 10 years ago. In fact this same church had a recent blowout. Terrible! And you wonder why I didn't want to be part of that?

A legal religion [law based, legalistic religion] has been thought quite the correct religion for this time. But it is a mistake. The rebuke of Christ to the Pharisees is applicable to those who have lost from the heart their first love. [:"red"]A cold,legal religion can never lead souls to Christ; for it is a loveless, Christless religion.[/] [RH 03-20-94]

August 12, 2006

Last evening my wife asked me, "What are the three angel's messages?"

I quoted what a very prominent SDA pastor/writer said from the pulpit of the University's church, (somewhat jokingly, I might add) that the 3 Angel's Messages are:

"(1) Fear God

(2) Babylon is fallen!

(3) Watch out for the Pope!"

We proclaim the 3rd Angel's message.....but if you ask the SDA sitting in the pew what the message is, he/she will give you a quizzical expression/smile and........fumble! Right? (Try it, sometime.)

So-o-o-o, What are the 3 Angel's messages in the common people's English of today?

Ben

August 12, 2006

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So-o-o-o, What are the 3 Angel's messages in the common people's English of today?

I think you summed it up right there (above post) LOL

When I read "Fear God" in Apocalypse (Revelation)14:7, I tend to think not "fear" as in be afraid, although if you are hanging on to your sins and refusing Him I suppose you will have reason to fear that way...

I understand fear to mean, "reverence, worship, adore, respect" simply because of who God is and what He is. He is just worthy

August 12, 2006

In verse 9 you find a solemn warning. The beast and his image are scheduled for a dire demise and the Lord desires that we escape that

To me that is saying that the state of the beast will become so evil that God will put an end to it. In His mercy He warns us not to become involved with it. He sees now what will happen then and lets His people know

August 12, 2006

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What are the 3 Angel's messages in the common people's English of today?

I would dearly love to know that!!!!

August 17, 2006

Don't worship yourself. It's pointless.

gcw

August 17, 2006

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olger said:

"There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it."

Excellent point. In many cases we need to let them go, and focus on those who are ready to accept truth. Failure to make this distinction has resulted in some paralysis of the church. I believe that it's time to change this.

olger

<hr /></blockquote>I think this is too often an excuse. There are lots of people who "left" who never got a call once in 20 years of attending Church; and they would still love to hear from someone - but not to "evangelize them! Come on! is that what they really need?

To just "let them go" I think is half the problem. (the bIg half). <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/soapbox.gif" alt="" />

August 17, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

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What are the 3 Angel's messages in the common people's English of today?

I would dearly love to know that!!!!

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¶ And I saw another angel in flight between heaven and earth, having eternal good news to give to those who are on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Have fear of God and give him glory; because the hour of his judging is come; and give worship to him who made heaven and earth and the sea and the fountains of water.

8 And a second angel came after, saying, Destruction has come to Babylon the great, which gave to all the nations the wine of the wrath of her evil ways.

9 And a third angel came after them, saying with a loud voice, If any man gives worship to the beast and his image, and has his mark on his brow or on his hand,

10 To him will be given of the wine of God’s wrath which is ready unmixed in the cup of his wrath and he will have cruel pain, burning with fire before the holy angels and before the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their pain goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, who give worship to the beast and his image, and have on them the mark of his name.

12 Here is the quiet strength of the saints, who keep the orders of God, and the faith of Jesus.

<hr /></blockquote> This is the BBE Version of the Bible. What do you think of verses 7 and 12 as being the main message?

August 17, 2006

Calgary guy, so, what do those last verses mean in common English? Just how and in what way to they apply to Christians today.

I searched the EGW CD-ROM and found that the first angel's message was fulfilled in 1843. She says the second angel's message was fulfilled, even 'closed', at the 1844 time of disappointment and that she never comes out and defines the 3rd angel's message, except to say that all three of the angel's messagesa are to be proclaimed currently. From my many years in Adventism, I gather she means that the SDA religion, including her as God's special messenger for these times, and the end time prophecy's as we understand and have taught them constitutes the collective Three Angel's messages. In other words, Adventism is the fulfillment of and what it says about the future fulfills the Bible's purpose in and of the Three Angel's messages. Yet, the third angel's message is not defined and clearly outlined . The appendix of Early Writings says she assumed everybody knew what the third angel's message was and its meaning. Well, her generation is gone. So, here we are in the 'last days' and we still don't have a clear definition of the 3rd angel's message in common English....unless somebody here has found some place where she has described it that I didn't find.

Assuming some know what it is...let them define it and if possible give references.

Ben

August 17, 2006

Dr. Ben asked: "So-o-o-o, What are the 3 Angel's messages in the common people's English of today?"

1st Angel, Revelation 14: 6-7:

In "end time" the eternal gospil, that is the pure message of God's salvation, will be proclaimed to every group of people, in a form that they can understand. That message will tell them that time is growing short, and it is time to return to the God who created this universe.

2nd Angel, Revelation 14: 8

Some of what is presented as comming from God is not. It is apostate and impure.

3rd Angel, Revelation 14: 9 - 12

The time to make a decision, for or against God, to seperate the truth of God from what is not, has come. All must make that choice, and make it now. That choice will determine one's eternal future.

Comment:

Folks, the Three Angels Messages is not centered in the Pope, or the Roman Catholic Church. It is centered in God,and salvation. I have preached sermons (plural) dedicated to what I have said above. I have preached those sermons the majority of times to non-SDA congregations.

August 17, 2006

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benherndon said:

Calgary guy, so, what do those last verses mean in common English? Just how and in what way to they apply to Christians today.

Ben

Ben

You are also making quite a bit of assumption here in your statement - that no one in the Adventist Church really knows what the three angel's message is.

I just posted it above in about as common an English as one will ever find. My last post is my reference.

Understandably, some cannot see the forest for the trees; but the message is clear to anyone who wants to see it.

Gregory's last post seems to capture the essence of what we should see in this message. Why would God even bother to give us this message if we can never really understand it as you seem to be saying?

I tell people; both SDA and not, that the three angel's message is summed up nicely in vs.7 of this BBE Version where it says:

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"7 Saying with a loud voice, Have fear of God and give him glory; because the hour of his judging is come; and give worship to him who made heaven and earth and the sea and the fountains of water."

In essence, this is what all 3 "angels" are getting at; the "voice" just keeps getting progressively louder in each of the three angel's "message," indicating, not a problem with the message, but with the recipients of same.

August 17, 2006

I have believed that the 3 msgs. are interconnected. The first pertains to the beginning of the investigative judgment in heaven ("the hour of his judgment has come") and a call to to worship God as Creator, referencing the seventh-day Sabbath.

The second msg. refers of the apostasy of the man of sin, and his organization, from the worship of God, suggesting the purported change of the Sabbath to the first day of the week. ("Sunday is our mark of authority. The Church is above the Bible . . ." [Catholic Record] ) Also, the harlot daughters who have followed in the footsteps of the mother church in spiritual fornication.

The third msg. contrasts two groups: those who worship the beast and receive the mark of its authority--the change of the Sabbath; and, those who remain true to God and keep His commandments, and the faith of Jesus. V. 12 is also a testimony to the work of the Holy Spirit in the life, bringing the believer into conformity with God's revealed will. Not merely believing the commandments of God, not merely teaching them, but keeping the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ--walking the talk. That, once again, would seem to relate back to the first msg. about the commencement of the investigative judgment in heaven.

Dave

August 18, 2006

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calgary_guy said:

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rudywoofs said:

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What are the 3 Angel's messages in the common people's English of today?

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¶ And I saw another angel in flight between heaven and earth, having eternal good news to give to those who are on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people,

If the first part of the first angel's message is not primary, then his subsequent message, as well as the second and third angel's messages, are pointless.

[:"red"] "But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. " [/]

1 Cor 13:13

[:"red"] "If I have....but do not have Love... I am nothing." [/] 1 Cor 13 NASB

[:"red"] "....God is love." [/] 1 John 4:8 KJV

August 18, 2006

Cyber Guy;

You are on the mark again.

I took this thread and ran the search for the word *LOVE*.

Our problem is we tend to cram doctrine instead of building in them a relationship with Christ! We tend to say, "Well, we told them the truth! What they do with it is their problem."

Where are new members finding the *LOVE FOR GOD & HIS LOVE FOR US*?

They join the church because they see the *TRUTH* about doctrine. It is amazing and wonderful, but as time passes, they are lost because no one *TAUGHT* them the *LOVE CONCEPT OF JESUS CHRIST AND A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP.*

We, as Adventist's, do not get it. I am a Seventh-day Adventist; I believe the doctrines; I take my vows seriously; I believe it will be the *relationship* with God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and Their relationship with me that will save my sinful, imperfect self..

Right now, I guess I would say that I strongly desire to be one of the *REMNANT*. Will we still be called Seventh-day Adventist? Beats me.

However, if Seventh-day Adventist's expect to keep members, they need to learn how to *LOVE*! We fall very short in this area. This is the *LEAK*. It has nothing to do with the Three Angels Message or the interpretation thereof!

By the way, some of you do have it! To the others, can you imagine Jesus saying, “I have worked with this stupid idiot long enough. If he can’t understand the Three Angel’s Message, I will just move on to others and let this idiot sink or swim?” Wow, what a saving message!

August 18, 2006

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calgary_guy said:

olger

<hr /></blockquote>I think this is too often an excuse. There are lots of people who "left" who never got a call once in 20 years of attending Church; and they would still love to hear from someone - but not to "evangelize them! Come on! is that what they really need?

To just "let them go" I think is half the problem. (the bIg half). <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/soapbox.gif" alt="" />

[:"red"] "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" [/] Hebrews 9:27 KJV

With the recent reasoning as is understood from this corner, not only must I die for someone else's conduct toward me, but I must justify myself in personal choices by

accusing my mother, the saints in the church, the evil in the church, the failures in the church, and consequently God Himself, for allowing such atrocious behaviors to touch my life.

And of course there's always the standard, "the devil made me do it".

[:"red"]

"The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

[/] Ezekiel 18:20 NASB

August 20, 2006