Those who have left the Church

[Nicodema]

I think it's a grave mistake to begin with the assumption that those not attending church are "broken" and in need of "fixing" while those attending are in a capacity to do that "fixing".

Quite often it seems the other way around. Those attending church regularly are "broken" in some pretty significant and harmful-to-others ways, and those who are fairly "healthy" spiritually and emotionally leave because they are tired of the toxins in the environment and the malingering lazy attitude of those who continue to excuse and maintain that level of toxicity. Or those on the road to becoming healthy spiritually or emotionally leave because they are tired of the place that is supposed to be supporting and encouraging that effort being the place that sets them back.

I think if our initial assumptions about the situation are this erroneous, we cannot arrive at any sound conclusions about what's going on. To assume those leaving are "broken" while those staying are "whole" could be a gross misconception in some cases. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

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rudywoofs said:

But I don't consider myself "out of" the church if that makes any sense.

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That makes a lot of sense. It portrays an all too common, and unfortunate dilema.

I appreciate your sharing of your opinion/experience here, somehow, I think it will encourage others going through the same or similar things.

LOL...when I got baptized "a few years ago" it was in a Church that had a lot of very well to do and well dressed people.

Now, try transplanting a dirty old welder like me into a crowd like that. It was like mixing milk and vinegar! Or, maybe sometimes, even like chewing tinfoil.

Does anyone remember when potato chip bags were still made of tinfoil, we would chew on them after eating our chips, just to get "that feeling."

Some of today's churches chew on the "foil" of some rigid culture set, and it seems to still transmit that same feeling. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/yucky.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/yeahthat.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

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calgary_guy said:

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rudywoofs said:

But I don't consider myself "out of" the church if that makes any sense.

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That makes a lot of sense.

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Um, I was the one who said that. Not rudywoofs (Pam). We are two very different people. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

I'm not sure that this belongs in this particular thread, but I cannot make new topics in this particular forum, so I'm putting it here. DISCLAIMER: by doing so I am NOT trying to make a statement that "Omelas" = the church. Read this and form your own conclusions about what it is.

This seriously needs to be read.

Those Who Walk Away from Omelas

I wanted it in this forum because the truth about that child (in the story) is definitely something we don't talk about, and anyone attempting to do so is immediately heckled, hassled, held in suspicion, tarbrushed & condemned. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

And unfortunately, for me -- that child is ALL I want to talk about, because it's all that really matters. It's the chink, the crack, the break, the tear in the fabric of our paradigm, the irresolute, the unresolved, and the unacceptable.

Somebody read the story so we can talk about it?

[Clio]

Some very beautiful flowers grow on manure heaps...as do strawberries. yet none of them can be enjoyed until they are removed from the place where they grew, and brought to a better place.

I personally do not believe that the good of the many outweighs the good of the few or the one.

Were that the case, I would not be a member of the Abba Father's Kingdom family.

He came for me... after the one... and commanded, "As you do for the least of these... so you have done for Me."

[GodsOath]

To the people that I've talked to as to why they don't come to church is mainly because of people. I almost left the church 4-5 months after being baptized just because of several people. And I can say that the reason why I got baptized was mainly because of personal studies not because I was helped by the church. Most times I see a leave them alone attitude plus the we are too busy syndrome. It gets tiring when no one is doing anything about the nurturing of individuals and those that do are too overwhelmed. Some times there are very little interaction between members and only a minority of people that are very active that may resent the others for not working for the Lord. I'll have to say 95% may not be walking 100% His way.

[cardw]

I'm an ex-SDA and while the process of leaving the church had its painful moments, it also had some great moments of lightness of being. I look at it as a part of a growth process. My process just took me in a different direction.

I don't look at church attendence as being bad or good. I think it meets a lot of people's needs at different times in their lives. Its a place to focus for community and I think the most successful churches provide community.

I think what you are seeing, not only in the SDA church, but in churches in general is evidence that the church isn't speaking the same language as the culture around it and it has become less effective at providing community in today's conversation.

The old shame and fear message isn't working. This message isn't limited to religious organizations. What I observe in the people that I come in contact with, is people are looking for places that are safe and aren't going to try and make everybody alike.

I rarely find someone who isn't interested in self improvement and growth. I think people find it more enjoyable to do these explorations in community. I don't think people are interested in experts or authority telling them what to be, but want to learn how to be for themselves, which I think is a lot healthier than being dictated to. This goes back to the idea that you can either feed a person for a day or teach them how to fish and feed them for a lifetime.

I believe that church can provide a safe place to be. Unfortunately there are few churches that even know how to do that. I don't think its a problem of not wanting to, but a problem of knowlege and a fear of change.

There are indications that the function of the church in the USA may end up in the same position as the European church. In the US we are farther removed from the horrible history of the Christian church and its effects in the past, but that is no longer the case as prominant athiests and humanists have challenged the assumptions of the American church and its claims. And we are also seeing the failure of the American church to be honest about its problems and attrocities such as hidden molestation problems, its hatred of gays, its judgemental attitudes, and other major public relations problems.

The church in general as come to be viewed as a con artist, ignorant, judgemental, and controlling. Not exactly the safest place to be. So visiting and being nice are not going to be trusted. Authenticity, being open, and intellectual honesty are places to start.

I, personally, think its too late. This next generation is seeing things much different and don't think the church can change fast enough. Plus there are other organizations filling the needs that churches have neglected. And I don't really find that most people in the church really understand the dialog going on in the rest of the world.

[John317]

Good post. You've mentioned some very important things the church and all of us should consider.

It's important for people to understand that while the church is to be able to communicate with the the rest of society, the church is not supposed to copy or try to be like "the world." We shouldn't try to be different just for the sake of being different, but neither should we make the world our pattern of how we should be or think.

For instance, when it comes to the attitude of the church toward gays, the church should love them as people, but the church loses its purpose if it adopts the belief of much of the world that sexual relations between members of the same gender are OK. The Bible has be normative or else, in my judgment, the church loses its reason for existing. Its reason for being must have its foundation in the 66 books of the Bible and in the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will teach the church how to communicate its message to the world but I don't believe the Spirit will lead the church to take its marching orders from the surrounding society. As I see it, the Bible teaches that the world is under the control of Satan, "the god and ruler of this world," whereas the church is the body of Christ and is supposed to take its orders from Him. So we can really only expect there to be disagreement between the church and the world, disagreements that can be expected to intensify as we get closer to the Second Coming of Christ. At the same time, it's extremely important that the church take a long, hard, serious look at the issues you have brought up and be willing to make the changes that are necessary to carry on its mission.

I would really be interested in knowing your thoughts about this viewpoint.

[Taylor]

I don't see my church as hating gays. However the Bible is clear about the gay lifestyle and the church, in the name of love, can't condone that lifestyle because God doesn't. However, they can love gays for the people that they are and welcome them to church and love them unconditionally. After all we should love everyone unconditionally but it doesn't mean we agree with stealing, lying, adultury etc. Sin is sin, but we are commanded to love and it is a great priviledge to love, despite the sin as that is how Jesus is.

[carolaa]

The old shame and fear message isn't working. This message isn't limited to religious organizations. What I observe in the people that I come in contact with, is people are looking for places that are safe and aren't going to try and make everybody alike.

I believe that church can provide a safe place to be. Unfortunately there are few churches that even know how to do that. I don't think its a problem of not wanting to, but a problem of knowlege and a fear of change.

The church in general as come to be viewed as a con artist, ignorant, judgemental, and controlling. Not exactly the safest place to be. So visiting and being nice are not going to be trusted. Authenticity, being open, and intellectual honesty are places to start.

I, personally, think its too late. This next generation is seeing things much different and don't think the church can change fast enough. Plus there are other organizations filling the needs that churches have neglected. And I don't really find that most people in the church really understand the dialog going on in the rest of the world.

I tend to agree with you. I think the reason a lot of people leave is because they are not accepted, which goes back to relationships. They don't fit it with the established crowd and/or they feel judged.

I also think the reason we aren't more transparent in the church is because we know it is not safe. Safe groups like AA have very strict rules about confronting and confidentiality. The church does not. When church people gossip, very rarely are they confronted. Often they are the leaders doing it! Church discipline is almost unheard of, and probably a good thing since it is so rarely done in love, and discipline w/o love only distances people further. The church is viewed as you describe because it is well deserved.

I certainly could/can not be transparent in any of the churches I've attended regularly. I can't even be transparent on this or any other forum because you never know who is lurking. In that sense, I envy those who have left. Many of them are healthier for it.

I personally think it is probably too late, as well; the only way I can see it turning around is with well-trained small groups.

[olger]

Dear Carol. Thanks for you input.

As to feeling "judged." There is a great blessing in a clear conscience, and that takes away any condemnation in our heart. When the heart is pure towards God, we can relate to His children with compassion. There are people that God wants us to be a blessing to, maybe in the church. Let's go find them..

Taylor, that ain't bad. Well put, Sister.

[Woody]

Quote:

Sin is sin

Taylor ... I very much agree with you. I think this is a very important principle that is generally rejected in our church. Well ... I see it improving but we need to keep the "sin is sin" principle firmly in our minds and actions.

[cardw]

Quote:

As I see it, the Bible teaches that the world is under the control of Satan, "the god and ruler of this world," whereas the church is the body of Christ and is supposed to take its orders from Him. So we can really only expect there to be disagreement between the church and the world, disagreements that can be expected to intensify as we get closer to the Second Coming of Christ.

I would really be interested in knowing your thoughts about this viewpoint.

I think you should know that I don't consider the Bible the best source of ethical behavior. I actually believe that, while it has some good wisdom sayings, its not a very good communicator of ethical behavior.

One of the things that I have observed is that the world is far more tolerant of the church than the church is of the world. What the church often interprets as persecustion is simply disagreement. The church, at least in this country, hasn't seen real persecution in a long time. And when various religious groups did experience persecution it was often from other Christian groups.

What I see is a lack of results from the teachings of Christianity. What I do see is an increase in fear and shame. I see an emphasis on sexual issues and an almost outright denial of issues of violence. The feeling I get when I walk into almost any church is fear and tension.

This, I believe, is a direct result of taking the Bible literally. The Bible is largely an iron age ethical system and a New Testament put together by powerful men of the Roman empire with rather more emphasis on politics and very little emphasis on spirituality and truth.

Most of the church is ignorant of its own history. I can be easily argued that Christianity has been one of the most violent movements in history. When you study the theology behind this violence you can trace it back to a literal interpretation of the Bible. And there is no shortage of God ordered violence in the Bible. It is estimated that anywhere from 50 to 150 million people were killed by the Roman church for religous reasons. And this started very early, even during the formation of the Bible. Protestants began where the Catholics left off.

And now the church practices what I call a form of psychological and emotional violence. It is so ingrained that even "good" people teach and practice it. They are afraid this church will collapse. Again fear based.

I have found that if something is true, you don't have to keep shoring it up. It is pretty self evident. It has become obvious that there are great mysteries in this world and human behavior is one of them. When the church preaches so confidently that it has THE answer and the results are less than stellar, maybe we need to re-evaluate those answers and their source.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I think you should know that I don't consider the Bible the best source of ethical behavior. I actually believe that, while it has some good wisdom sayings, its not a very good communicator of ethical behavior.

And the best source is...?

Gerry

[olger]

Quote:

What I see is a lack of results from the teachings of Christianity. What I do see is an increase in fear and shame. I see an emphasis on sexual issues and an almost outright denial of issues of violence. The feeling I get when I walk into almost any church is fear and tension.

Curious.

[Woody]

Quote:

What I see is a lack of results from the teachings of Christianity. What I do see is an increase in fear and shame. I see an emphasis on sexual issues and an almost outright denial of issues of violence. The feeling I get when I walk into almost any church is fear and tension

Tell us a little about your childhood.

[cardw]

Quote:

And the best source is...?

I believe the best sources for behavior are living sources. You can read my thoughts on this at these links...

The Mystery of Evil

The Devil made me do it

I would also direct you to this excellent video by Sam Harris on the ethics of the Bible. This is part 4 and is on this topic. You can listen to the others if you want...

Sam Harris on Bible ethics

This is the conversation that is emerging and Christianity may never fully get this conversation because of its ignorance, prejudices and preconceptions.

[Gerr]

Quote:

And the best source is...?

I believe the best sources for behavior are living sources. You can read my thoughts on this at these links...

Living sources such as whom?

I am having trouble following links because all I get in my computer is the tool bar. Clicking on "fullscreen" gives me nothing.

Gerry

[cardw]

Hi Gerry,

Here are the links if you want to cut and paste.

http://whatisspiritual.blogspot.com/2007/09/mystery-of-evil.html

http://whatisspiritual.blogspot.com/2007/07/devil-made-me-do-it.html

And the Sam Harris video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uyWeJo-_2s

[Woody]

Those who have left the church though are easy to get back if you just convince them that "sin is sin" and that we are all in the same boat.

The reason they left is because they feel that the church has identified THEIR particular sin as one that is worse than the rest of the "saints".

A good quote to share with them from Ellen White is :

Quote:

"He who breaks one precept of the commandments of God is a transgressor of the whole law" 2 SM 336

This puts us all on an equal playing field. That is powerful. It shows that we all equally need the Saviour as our Redeemer.

Now ... if we could only convince the Saints of this ... then the sinners would feel at home in church.

[cardw]

Quote:

Tell us a little about your childhood.

I may not have communicated the last line very well. When I say that I feal fear and tension its not me that is experiencing those emotions. It me sensing the fear and tension within the church. There is this feeling that everyone is trying a little too hard and the sense that being authentic would probably not go over very well.

I admit that the transition out of church was not easy, but it has been well worth the journey. I have so much more joy and peace now. Life is filled with wonder, mystery, and even though uncertain, there is great satisfaction to be had without the all the mental gymnastics needed to sustain church culture today.

I now have to energy to initiate and complete many creative dreams that I didn't have before. I feel more compassion and engage in my community in ways my religious training was never able to provide.

My issues are not about "getting away" with some sin. I really don't care about the whole "trying" to be good. What is important to me is what works and what is authentic. I no longer want to waste time on anything that teaches fear, shame, or manipulation.

What gets my interest is when I sense intellectual and emotional honesty. All the rest is smoke and mirrors.

[Woody]

Praise GOD !!! This all sounds very good. You certainly do not have to be in a church organization if it is not helping you to grow in Christ. There are many ways to God ... and the SDA church is not the ONLY way.

I certainly don't have to agree with all ways to God. Your way may not be my way. But as long as it draws you to Christ ... how can I fault it?

Our walk with God is OUR walk with God. It is an individual experience. I will not criticize how God is leading your personal experience.

God bless your walk with Him. I can understand better what you are talking about when you say "fear" now. I can see how you would sense that IN the church.

[John317]

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (Amplified Bible)

9 The coming [of the lawless one, the antichrist] is through the activity and working of Satan and will be attended by great power and with all sorts of [pretended] miracles and signs and delusive marvels--[all of them] lying wonders--

10 And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved.

11 Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false,

12 In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness.

[Pilgrim]

Do you think that this could be the reason?

Re 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

3:15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would you were cold or hot.

3:16 So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

3:17 Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods [color:#000099](intellectual truth), and have need of nothing; and don't know that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked(Spiritually destitute):

3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness does not appear; and anoint your eyes with eyesalve, that you may see.

3:19 As many as I love, I rebukeand chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

3:21 To him that overcomes (this spiritually destitute condition) will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

You see it is only the 'lukewarm' who enjoy fellowship where Christ has been shut out, relagated to standing outside, knocking for entrance. It is not enough to gather once a week and talk about truth. Jesus said that many drew near to Him with their mouths, and honored Him with their lips, but their hearts were 'lukewarm', far from Him.

God Bless,

Dennis