Those who have left the Church

[John317]

Yes, Dennis, I believe you are exactly right. Great points.

Often, while there is theological talk, Christ is kept on the outside instead of being on the inside of our hearts and lives. We have to clear away the rubbish that keeps the door from being opened, and invite him inside. I think it's significant that the door must be opened by the one living inside, in order for Christ to come in.

[Pilgrim]

John 3:17,

Amen to verse 17, and He tells us how in dealing with Nicodemas in verse 3 through 8, One must be born again, not just talk about truth. He had no idea what Jesus was talking about. If you look at what Jesus counsels us to buy, it is all the things that one receives when they are 'born again'.

This is what it means to believe on Him, to be born again, recreated in the image of God, filled with all the fullness of God, overflowing with love and righteousness for 'Christ the hope of glory dwells within' overflowing onto others.

God Bless,

Dennis

[John317]

I agree. Jesus intentionally used a word that could be understood in two different ways: "born again" or "born from above [of the Spirit]." Nicodemus chose to take Jesus' words to mean "born again," which, of course, is an impossibility. He was right that no one can re-enter his mother's womb in order to go through the birth process again. But that was not Jesus' meaning: Jesus was talking about being given a new life in the Holy Spirit, by which we become like a new person, with new likes and dislikes, totally new motives, including a love for God and one's fellow humans, and the desire and power to keep God's commandments.

[Dr. Rich]

Problem is, we have cried 'WOLF' way too early and now the SDA church is a laughing stock for the rest of the bride. The so called '3 angels message during the time of trouble and that has not started yet. But then when the real message comes out by ONE person in Matt.24:45, his message will be given to deaf ears of the teachers and preachers and leaders because they don't think any NEW truth can come along.

But the message has already began by the coming out of a new book called "THE SPIRIT OF THE CHURCH' by Neufeld and Sterling, SDA members from Calimesa CA SDA church and now some SDA members want it banned. What do you think?

Dr. Rich

[John317]

But the message has already began by the coming out of a new book called "THE SPIRIT OF THE CHURCH' by Neufeld and Sterling, SDA members from Calimesa CA SDA church and now some SDA members want it banned. What do you think?Dr. Rich

Why do they want it banned?

What is the essential message of the book, if you could give a short summary?

[Beryl]

Quote:

But then when the real message comes out by ONE person in Matt.24:45, his message will be given to deaf ears of the teachers and preachers and leaders because they don't think any NEW truth can come along.

I fail to see anything in that verse that indicates that there is going to be ONE person bringing a new truth to everyone!! Jesus was merely using the illustration to show that we ALL need to be ready for His return, because, as He has just finished saying (v.36) that "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Jesus follows with the historic illustration of the days of Noah, when, although Noah had been preaching for 120 years, these people had failed to heed the message. God did NOT send a second message to them. The time arrived, and the flood came. "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." (v.37)

Jesus continued with the illustration of a house owner knowing/not knowing when the thief would come. Jesus then applies that message to tell that the Son of Man will come at a time when we will not expect Him.

THEN Jesus follows with another illustration of a servant, left in charge of his master's house and household, and the resulting punishment that will be awaiting those not ready for His return. "The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of." (v.50)

Unless the wording is dreadfully twisted, it can mean nothing else.

God bless,

Beryl

[Inga]

Hi Fran, the accountant

You would do the mathematical kind of thing -- run a search on how many times "love" was used on this thread. h5

I happen to believe that the search term is foundational to the issue ..

Cyber Guy;

I took this thread and ran the search for the word *LOVE*.

Our problem is we tend to cram doctrine instead of building in them a relationship with Christ! We tend to say, "Well, we told them the truth! What they do with it is their problem."

Where are new members finding the *LOVE FOR GOD & HIS LOVE FOR US*?

They join the church because they see the *TRUTH* about doctrine. It is amazing and wonderful, but as time passes, they are lost because no one *TAUGHT* them the *LOVE CONCEPT OF JESUS CHRIST AND A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP.*

We, as Adventist's, do not get it. I am a Seventh-day Adventist; I believe the doctrines; I take my vows seriously; I believe it will be the *relationship* with God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and Their relationship with me that will save my sinful, imperfect self..

Right now, I guess I would say that I strongly desire to be one of the *REMNANT*. Will we still be called Seventh-day Adventist? Beats me.

However, if Seventh-day Adventist's expect to keep members, they need to learn how to *LOVE*! We fall very short in this area. This is the *LEAK*. It has nothing to do with the Three Angels Message or the interpretation thereof!

By the way, some of you do have it! To the others, can you imagine Jesus saying, “I have worked with this stupid idiot long enough. If he can’t understand the Three Angel’s Message, I will just move on to others and let this idiot sink or swim?” Wow, what a saving message!

"The Three Angels' Messages" and "The third angel's message" are essentially used in the same way -- as a sort of code name for the message of Revelation 14: 6-10, which defines the mission of the Seventh-day Adventist church or our reason for being.

I believe that Verse 6 (first verse of the message) is foundational to all the rest: "I saw another angel flying in t midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people."

An angel is a messenger. So this is the picture of a message going out to all the world. And the message is the "eternal gospel." Gospel is Good News. In this case it is Good News about God -- that God loves us enough to die for us in order to save us from our sins so that we may live with Him eternally. The Good News is that the essential characteristic of God is that He is Love!

That's why I see your search, Fran, as so relevant.

I want to go on to the rest of this first message, leaving out a phrase on which most others have focused, because I believe that focus misses the essential point. So I'm left with this message: "Fear God and give Him glory [omitted phrase]; and worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of water. [NASB]

This is a call to honor and worship ('fear') God as the Creator of heaven and earth, in contrast to the false gods honored by Babylon.

Thus we have a two-fold message of the Good News that God loves us with illimitable love and that we should worship Him because He is our Creator -- and the Creator of all that is. (The judgment hour message makes it three-fold, and it fits in because we will be judged on the basis of our worship.)

It is a message of love. It is a bold message. It is a message that contradicts much of what the world teaches. It is a call to Creator worship, and it includes the basis of our Sabbath-keeping, which is the Genesis account of God's creation of this world in six literal days.

The second message goes on to say that "Babylon has fallen." She is exposed as the seat of confusion and falsehood by the preaching of the truth about God -- that He is Creator and that His character is love.

The third message tells of the terrible consequences for staying in the confusion of Babylon. It is a warning given in love.

This is followed by the message of "another angel" in Revelation 18:1-5. It calls "my people" (God's people within the confusion of false religions) to "come out of her." It is a call from a Father's heart of love, so that his peole may not be caught in the destruction that will soon come on Babylon.

This message (because all four messages are really a unity) is the reason for our existence. God has called us to communicate this message "to every nation and tribe and tongue and people."

I have a feeling that if we taught this consistently and worked together to fulfill our mission, we would not lose so many members. There's nothing that bonds us together so well in relatinships as working together. And, of course, if we work together, we will bear each other's burdens and help each other out.

Our local church is far from perfect, but I'm happy to say that within the last couple of weeks, not only did a lot of folks put themselves out to help a couple young women in very difficult situations, but the church board voted to help one of them out with a significant sum to pay part of her monthly rent. Neighbors have observed and wondered at a church that cares so much.

It feels good to have our church recognized as the "caring church," as all our churches ought to be. (We've a long ways to go to really fit that description, but by God's grace, we're getting there. And that's what will give our gospel message real power.)

[skyblue888]

The matter of salvation is just as simple as accepting the alphabet and yet we don't understand it! It was said that not even one in one hundred understands it for himself... not one in one hundred understands the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare!

See how simple it is!

Read the first chapter of Genesis again and remember that "this is the word which by the Gospel is preached unto you."

"He speaks and it is done!" Ps.33:9.

If we are hungering and thirsting for righteousness we need only receive the Scriptures as the voice of God speaking to the soul and the word becomes Spirit and life!

In the beginning He said, "Let there be light! And there was light!" Gen.1:3. There was no time between the spoken word and the thing done! This is creation as opposed to evolution!

Since the fall of Adam the hearts and minds of men have become spiritually dark. We know that, spiritually, all men need to be re-created in the image of God. Therefore the word has gone out of God's mouth in righteousness:

"Let the light of the knowledge of the glory (character) of God in the face of Jesus Christ shine in the darkened void of your heart." 2 Cor.4:6.

That light which is the light of God's presence, the light of His glory, immediately shines in the hearts of all who are willing to be as submissive to His voice as is the inanimate creation!

And the light of life which is thus imparted is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God! Matt.4:4.

"The entrance of Your word giveth light." Ps.119:130,93.

And the same voice from Heaven speaks to us, saying, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." Phil.2:5.

Those who submit to His voice immediately receive the mind of Christ and, with the apostle Paul, may say, "We have the mind of Christ." 1 Cor.2:16. And the mind of Christ accomplishes everything, doing for them those things which it is impossible for them to do for themselves.

"I will praise His word." Ps.54:6.

sky

We are not to feel that we must be on probation and prove to the Lord that we are reformed before we may take hold of these blessings! We need not wait one moment. We need not wait until we have made a suitable repentance before we may have the mind of Christ! Without the Spirit of Christ to help our infirmities, we cannot empty our hearts of self and form a Christian character!

[larryd]

Not everyone who has left the church has rejected the 3 angel's message!

[larryd]

"There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it."

I feel that it is this exact attitude that drives some members from the church!

[WayneV]

To the OP

Maybe instead of talking about those who have left the church, we should talk to them! :)

[skyblue888]

The three angel's messages:

"Fear God" and "Give glory to Him." "For the hour of His judgment is come."

"Those who fear God are to think for themselves. They are no longer to let other men do their thinking. They are no longer to be chained down to erroneous maxims, theories and doctrines." This Day With God, p.32.

And "Give glory to Him." We are to give credit to whom credit is due. "All things are of God." 2 Cor.5:18. "What have you that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you glory as though you did not receive it?" 1 Cor.4:7. "We are not to think of anything as of ourselves but our sufficiency is of God." 2 Cor.3:5. For "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. "A man can receive nothing unless it be given him from God." John 3:27.

"For the hour of His judgment is come."

"In Christ dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. This is why, although He was tempted in all points like as we are, He stood before the world, from His first entrance into it, untainted by corruption, though surrounded by it. Are we not also to become partakers of that fullness, and is it not thus, and thus only, that we can overcome (live) as He overcame (lived)?" E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7, p.907.

"Sin can be resisted only through the Third Person of the Godhead who would come with no modified energy but in the fullness of divine power." The Desire of Ages, p.671.

This is "the fullness of the blessing of the Gospel of Christ." Romans 16:29.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.744.

sky

[skyblue888]

Next post, I will share my views as to why so many people leave the church, based on our history and what the Scriptures and the SOP are saying about that.

sky

[Woody]

Quote:

"There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it."

Exactly.

[Woody]

Quote:

"Some wish to live within the sound of church or chapel bell; I want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell." - C.T. Studd

[debbym]

God equally loves everyone, those in church, any church, and those outside of church. Do what is at your right hand to do, with prayer and consecration of your heart. God will direct you and bless every expression of His love. You and I can be making his love known and make plans to increase our contacts in every direction, especially those in the family of God as known. Whatever plans we make, God is really in charge, not us.

[7daysadventist]

^

+1

[TTN2012]

we find it easier to go after those who have chosen, systematically to leave the Church and not seek to help those who are eagerly seeking out an understanding of God.

There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it.

Just how are these goals of restoring old members and reaching out to new ones in competition? Does it have to be one or the other?

It seems to me most SDA churches do little if anything to reach out to former members and if they do it may be just (count 'em) one phone call and/or one visit. (And an unscheduled surprise visit is rarely a good idea and could do more damage than repairing.)

I've never been in any SDA church that put as much effort into reaching out to ex-members as it does in revival seminars so I find your comment curious. Is a couple of phone calls or visits really that much of a bother? And could those efforts be a little more successful with a genuine "We care about you and miss you" attitude than just coldly visiting out of obligation rather than concern.

[debbym]

The truth is people do hurt people, sometimes by neglect, by aggression, criticism, by rejection, by snubbing and superiority, by a lack of love when another person is suffering in some kind of need. endless variations here. Then there are issues of childhood cruelty and bullying that are off the scale, let alone church member sexual abuse. then domestic violence causes members to lose their relationship to the church. I belief it is not too uncommon that when members become overwhelmed in most any kind of pain, the human tendency is to withdraw and tend the wound. it is not time to be social.

I hope our churches can be something other then social clubs, but also not trauma units, with continual drama. It's great that the pastor can do a good job at a funeral, but really when all they do is go from funeral to funeral... the church starts losing it's mission to the community.

but people cannot heal other people, it is so true that we can bring pain, but we cannot bring healing. it says when you have your gift at the alter and you remember someone has something against you, you are to go to them. Not because you can heal them. If you have God's love in your heart then they may perchance encounter the healing presence of God, and the rift between you, God may heal.

when we do the genuinely unselfish thing, it is God working. We don't have it in us naturally to do the selfless thing.

healing comes from the presence of God.

deb

[JoeMo]

Quote:

but people cannot heal other people, it is so true that we can bring pain, but we cannot bring healing. it says when you have your gift at the alter and you remember someone has something against you, you are to go to them. Not because you can heal them. If you have God's love in your heart then they may perchance encounter the healing presence of God, and the rift between you, God may heal. when we do the genuinely unselfish thing, it is God working. We don't have it in us naturally to do the selfless thing. healing comes from the presence of God.

When I first started reading this paragraph,I was gonna disagree with you. But by the time I finished it, I agree with you 100%!

[phkrause]

The truth is people do hurt people, sometimes by neglect, by aggression, criticism, by rejection, by snubbing and superiority, by a lack of love when another person is suffering in some kind of need. endless variations here. Then there are issues of childhood cruelty and bullying that are off the scale, let alone church member sexual abuse. then domestic violence causes members to lose their relationship to the church. I belief it is not too uncommon that when members become overwhelmed in most any kind of pain, the human tendency is to withdraw and tend the wound. it is not time to be social.deb

I do agree, but I also think that a lot also is how the person takes that rejection, snubbing, aggression, etc. I know from my own experience, I was told by many that I was going to hell, would never amount to anything, etc., etc. I'm still an SDA. Sure there were times when things hurt, but never enough to make me leave.

[Woody]

Quote:

I've never been in any SDA church that put as much effort into reaching out to ex-members as it does in revival seminars so I find your comment curious. Is a couple of phone calls or visits really that much of a bother?

Usually the 'ex's' are ex because of a decision they made. And a phone call would only frustrate them that their decision was not being respected. Oh I am sure there are exceptions. I am just saying this based on the many 'ex's' I know.

[M. T. Cross]

Other than a letter sent to me informing me that my name was being removed from the church books, the only contact I have had with any SDA's in the 25 years since I quit going to church has been contact that I have chosen to make. Not one phone call, one visit - nothing. Of the contact I have had, the only time religion has been brought up is here at C/A

[Woody]

Quote:

Not one phone call, one visit - nothing.

Did you want one?

IF so - let them know and I am sure they will contact you.

[M. T. Cross]

I likely would have been open to one 25 years ago, but thats not the point I'm trying to make. I am simply stating a fact in response to Stans post that maybe the church focuses on ex members more than they do non members.