Those who have left the Church

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

Not one phone call, one visit - nothing.

Did you want one?

IF so - let them know and I am sure they will contact you.

I might add though Woody - that statement kinda proves my point. That would be me initiating the contact wouldn't it? I did find it odd that I was kicked out without any conversation with me about anything. Just a very form type letter and that was the end of it.

[Woody]

If you are seeking God and eternal salvation E C ... you will not be concerned over who should initiate the contact.

[M. T. Cross]

I am not concerned. I am simply pointing out that, in response to Stans question - my experience is the opposite of what he suggested.

Also as I have pointed out before, I don't think there is any salvation needed and I don't believe in God as Christians do, so its kind of a non issue to me. Just contributing to the discussion of the original question.

[Stan]

My point was more this...

Have been to board meetings when they talk about evangelist activities, they then say we need to go after the former members, and they can tend to 'talk down' to them, ie you know better don't you?

AND they do not go after those who have never been connected with a faith movement. Often I think, and this is my own opinion, is they really do not have much to share other than condemnation.

When you lead someone to the foot of the cross, it is like you are going there for the very first time yourself. I remember nights when my excitement I had trouble going to sleep.

Of course we need to reach out to all, including those who may have taken a path that we would wish they would not.

Does that make more sense when I package my comment that way?

[M. T. Cross]

Thats pretty much what I thought you meant Stan. I am sure in a lot of churches and in a lot of cases it is true. When my mom stopped going to church she got a ton of visits and phone calls pretty much in the tone you describe. My personal experience was much different than that, so I wanted to throw out the flip side as well.

I think for a lot of people it is much harder to talk to someone about a religion that the person is not familiar with. I have a very hard time trying to tell someone not familiar with pagan religions about what being a Gwyddon entails. Even harder cause if I tell them to google it the first 2 pages on google are the sites of a certain nut job that has attached that word to his own brand of dangerous ramblings. But I can describe it to a Druid or Asatruer or someone with knowledge of pagan beliefs easier.

I think some of it connects with your thread on exclusiveness as well. I think some SDA's are so shocked that someone decides to leave the Adventist church that they have to hammer at them.

[BobRyan]

we find it easier to go after those who have chosen, systematically to leave the Church and not seek to help those who are eagerly seeking out an understanding of God.

There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it.

Amen - I don't think it has to be either-or - but our focus should definitely be directed to those who have never heard the gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

[M. T. Cross]

When you lead someone to the foot of the cross, it is like you are going there for the very first time yourself. I remember nights when my excitement I had trouble going to sleep.

This made me think. Before I go further let me clarify that nothing I am about to post is me complaining about my own experience, its just some thoughts based on that experience.

What if the former member had never had it put to them that way - ie led to the foot of the cross? What if their whole experience had been based on the "fear factor"? Now some will say that "the church is not the people" to which I call hooey. If it was not for the people one would just sit at home and do their own thing and come to their own conclusions.

See, when I was an Adventist I never saw anything but rules, God condemning anyone less than perfect. Really just a hopeless endless struggle that one will just fail at anyway. So if you believe that the message in the Bible is one of hope, would it not be just as important to try to show that to the former member?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Stan

we find it easier to go after those who have chosen, systematically to leave the Church and not seek to help those who are eagerly seeking out an understanding of God.

There comes a point to focus on those who have not heard the 3 angeles messages rather than focus on those who reject it.

Amen - I don't think it has to be either-or - but our focus should definitely be directed to those who have never heard the gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

I find that many people who 'reject' the gospel - simply did not hear the correct one from the beginning. They are rejecting a false image of God. We have the same problem as EC. People wrongly portraying our religion.

[JoeMo]

MT,

I agree with Woody. You were never introduced to Jesus as a Brother or God as a loving Father; you were introduced to religious intimidation, judgement, and self-righteous condemnation rather than being surrounded by people who were willing to admit that they were broken; and needed the love and encouragement of a Savior and friends that had the same needs as yourself.

In a way, I agree with those who say the church is not about the people - it is about developing a relationship with divinity. On the other hand, most of the time, divinity communicates to us through humans rather than directly - those humans being prophets, healers, pastors, teachers, etc.

As you know from your own religion, there is benevolent divinity and malevolent divinity. People who speak fear, anger, and condemnation are channelling malevolent divinity; people who channel love, encouragement, and patience are channelling benevolent divinity. You are sufficiently familiar with scripture to know the difference. Compare Galatians 5: 19-21 with Galatians 5:22-24. the difference between those led by the gods of this earth and those led by the God of heaven is clearly pointed out here. Most people are "in the process" of conversion; and exhibit some characteristics of both. My life's goal (yhrough grace is to "lose the characteristics referred to in verses 19-20 and develop those found in verses 22-24.

[cardw]

MT,

You were never introduced to Jesus as a Brother or God as a loving Father; you were introduced to religious intimidation, judgement, and self-righteous condemnation rather than being surrounded by people who were willing to admit that they were broken; and needed the love and encouragement of a Savior and friends that had the same needs as yourself.

In a way, I agree with those who say the church is not about the people - it is about developing a relationship with divinity. On the other hand, most of the time, divinity communicates to us through humans rather than directly - those humans being prophets, healers, pastors, teachers, etc.

I'm sure that I would probably get along with most of you just fine. I agree that a loving community is something to be desired.

I have a great community of people, only we don't gather around any ideas that the world is going to be destroyed and that humanity is naturally evil. We don't have a book we have to read and try and figure out what our duty to god is. We don't talk about how bad we are. We talk honestly about our feelings and support each other. We don't need an imaginary third party called god to make life meaningful. The persons that make life meaningful are sitting right across from us.

No matter how nice you say it, your message is still you are flawed and need a savior and if you don't get help you are going to die in a lake of fire. You may not say it that way, but that is the essential fact of what Christianity teaches. No amount of niceness is going to get around that.

Here is a video that illustrates the craziness of that message.

[cardw]

This is another short video of an ex-Mormon. I see many parallel issues that Adventists have in the Mormon culture.

In this video he talks about the test of Moroni. This is basically praying and studying until god convicts you of his presence. In my discussions on clubAdventist this idea that I need to study and pray more comes up quite often. The problem is I am never left with the option that it might not work. And when it doesn't work I am always told I just need to pray and read more or that I'm resisting or I'm too negative, etc. This leaves no possibility that it could be wrong. This is not the way of honesty.

I want you to notice the obvious emotional difficulty as he describes his journey. It is painful to be condemned by your community of origin for being honest.

[JoeMo]

Hey cardw,

I watched both videos. Interesting. The first one is based on a lie promulgated by religion - not scripture - that if you are not saved, you are eternally tortured in everlasting hell. You and all SDA's know that that is pure bovine excrement. The bible teaches that you either have eternal life in Christ or you are dead - you know like total oblivion. I agree with the video in the sense that conventional denominations are made by man and are designed to control people's behavior (and wallets).

The second video makes a lot of sense. I'm sure you are aware of many Christians who have never had a divine encounter; yet they continue to pray and claim belief. At least you and Alex have the stones to admit your disbelief and share your convictions (which, in a twisted sense, is a type of faith in the sense that you BELIEVE there is no God - at least in the sense that Christians and pagans believe there is a god). I admire the conviction and logic you share, even if I don't agree with you.

[BobRyan]

My point was more this...

Have been to board meetings when they talk about evangelist activities, they then say we need to go after the former members, and they can tend to 'talk down' to them, ie you know better don't you?

AND they do not go after those who have never been connected with a faith movement. Often I think, and this is my own opinion, is they really do not have much to share other than condemnation.

[cardw]

Hey cardw,

I watched both videos. Interesting. The first one is based on a lie promulgated by religion - not scripture - that if you are not saved, you are eternally tortured in everlasting hell. You and all SDA's know that that is pure bovine excrement.

[JoeMo]

Hey cardw,

I doubt if I can present a concept of God into which you can't infer some sort of fear. Being honest, I can't even conceive of God that no one can fear. He might be a good God; but that doesn't mean He's 100% safe. He's much "bigger" than I am; so He could conceivably hurt me real bad. My kids love me to death; but when they were little and made me mad, they feared me. I as their parent (practically a god to them), I would never hurt them. They still feared me, cuz I was so much bigger than they were. God is a lot bigger than I am; and I've read stories about what happens when people cross Him. He lets them face the consequences. When my kids grew up, they made mistakes and had to face the consequences. Could I have mitigated the consequences? Maybe - I dunno. One of them even did some jail time. He chose to do a bad bad thing and paid the consequences. We choose to do bad things and there are consequences. I know that doesn't help; but I think those are the facts ( to me at least). It's a matter of perception. Does that make sense?

[phkrause]

See, when I was an Adventist I never saw anything but rules, God condemning anyone less than perfect. Really just a hopeless endless struggle that one will just fail at anyway. So if you believe that the message in the Bible is one of hope, would it not be just as important to try to show that to the former member?

But you got that from "people" right? Not the Bible? And I bet you didn't get that from reading EGW books? Only from people taking her out of context. I agree with your post above, I still see that today, people claiming we need to be perfect. But as has been said many times, maybe not here on this thread, but from the Bible itself. It tells us to study for ourselves, to see if what the pastor, minister, etc., is leading us in the right direction. This is what happen to the Jews in Jesus' day and pretty much throughout the Bible we can see that. And we are all pretty much making the same mistake.

[Woody]

Quote:

In this video he talks about the test of Moroni. This is basically praying and studying until god convicts you of his presence. In my discussions on clubAdventist this idea that I need to study and pray more comes up quite often. The problem is I am never left with the option that it might not work. And when it doesn't work I am always told I just need to pray and read more or that I'm resisting or I'm too negative, etc. This leaves no possibility that it could be wrong. This is not the way of honesty.

Good Comment Cardw. I have to agree that you are right on with this observation. For I fear on the topic of prayer - that many Christians are far off base. Prayer is simply communication with God. It's not a good thing to play it as a lottery.

[cardw]

I doubt if I can present a concept of God into which you can't infer some sort of fear. Being honest, I can't even conceive of God that no one can fear. He might be a good God; but that doesn't mean He's 100% safe. He's much "bigger" than I am; so He could conceivably hurt me real bad. My kids love me to death; but when they were little and made me mad, they feared me. I as their parent (practically a god to them), I would never hurt them.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

See, when I was an Adventist I never saw anything but rules, God condemning anyone less than perfect. Really just a hopeless endless struggle that one will just fail at anyway. So if you believe that the message in the Bible is one of hope, would it not be just as important to try to show that to the former member?

But you got that from "people" right? Not the Bible? And I bet you didn't get that from reading EGW books? Only from people taking her out of context. I agree with your post above, I still see that today, people claiming we need to be perfect. But as has been said many times, maybe not here on this thread, but from the Bible itself. It tells us to study for ourselves, to see if what the pastor, minister, etc., is leading us in the right direction. This is what happen to the Jews in Jesus' day and pretty much throughout the Bible we can see that. And we are all pretty much making the same mistake.

Well yes and no.

I got that from people for certain.

I have also read the Bible 4 or 5 times. I get it from a lot of the Bible as well. I really tried to see the Bible in a positive light, I prayed my little heart out for guidance to see in that way. Never happened though. I did see the character of Jesus in a positive way and I really appreciated King David. But other than that I saw nothing that presented anything but a vindictive God that was frustrated and angry.

As far as EGW. I hate to say this cause I know the degree of respect most of you have for her, but I have yet to this day read an author (an I have read ALOT) that gave me the creeps and filled me with a sense of dread like that woman.

In retrospect I am happy with the way things turned out for me. I am on a path that is very spiritually enlightening and fulfilling. I 100% respect christians right to their point of view and am happy when it really genuinely fills their spiritual need. I also feel that way about CardW's postition and beliefs. One of my very best friends is of the very same belief as Card and he is hands down the best person I know. The standards he lives by are almost impossibly GOOD. He does that without any religion at all.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

This is god creating the consequences, not allowing someone to experience the consequences.

You seem to forget that the Hebrews were the ones who requested this contractual "obedience" relationship with its consequences Look at Exodus 19:7-9 and 20:18-21. They were afraid, even after Moses old them "don't be afraid. The pretty much said ",Moses; you go talk to God; and we'll do whatever He says, but we're not going to go meet with Him". They refused intimate friendship with God and insisted upon a list of contractual stipulations by which they would live. If you read the whole discourse in Exodus and Numbers, you would see that no Hebrews died as a result of their whining and disobedience before Sinai; the "punishment" (or consequences for breaking the contract they insisted upon) didn't start until after Sinai. The Hebrews brought the back-breaking law upon themselves and their descendants (us). They obviously never learned their lesson, either. When Pilate himself was pleasding for Christ's life, the Jews insisted on crucifying Him, call the curse upon themselves and their childern - again, us (See Matt. 27:24-25). I am confident you will disagree with my interpretation; but that's my story and I'm sticking to it .

[phkrause]

[cardw]

Quote:

This is god creating the consequences, not allowing someone to experience the consequences.

You seem to forget that the Hebrews were the ones who requested this contractual "obedience" relationship with its consequences Look at Exodus 19:7-9 and 20:18-21. They were afraid, even after Moses old them "don't be afraid. The pretty much said ",Moses; you go talk to God; and we'll do whatever He says, but we're not going to go meet with Him". They refused intimate friendship with God and insisted upon a list of contractual stipulations by which they would live.

[debbym]

Jesus died the death of those who perish forever, i never heard or saw any indication of fire at the cross. The death was from the presence of Holiness touching sin and sin being destroyed by it. Hebrews 12 says, My God is a consuming fire.

However much time it takes for a sinner to die it is never said anywhere that it takes days of torture for them to die. The death of the soul is more then the death of our body, it is involving the spiritual dimension.

FREEDOM FROM FEAR http://www.dianedew.com/fear.htm

"What time I am afraid, I will trust in Thee ...

in God I have put my trust; I will not fear ..."

Psalms 56:3, 4

The idea that a relationship with God is fear based, is not a spiritual understanding. There things to fear. But the fear of the Lord is to be sensible of good and evil and to depart from evil, because it leads away from life. If i learn that drinking rubbing alcohol leads to blindness i will fear going blind and not do this, it is not because some kind of irrational fear has taken hold of me.

When God, a benevolent God is in the equation of your thinking, reason and logic take a spiritual dimension and it becomes reasonable and logical to avoid things that will lead to spiritual death. But it is from a position of freedom to choose, from a position of peace, and use of understanding. The fear of the Lord is to depart from evil which is a source of fear that results in death.

We are unable to understand spiritual things without Spiritual birth, and new spiritual life. You must be born again to understand. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. This is not about being exclusive or excluding towards you. But there are matters that will not be understood without regenerated thinking.

Romans 12 says, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. another verse says, "By beholding we are transformed."

you are standing outside this experience and repeatedly knocking however gently on the thinking of those who are experiencing this, and making it plainly clear you cannot see how they can arrive at their position.

I can understand how you are arriving at your thinking, it is not complicated, but i also understand how someone could think as a Christian.

deb

[cardw]

However much time it takes for a sinner to die it is never said anywhere that it takes days of torture for them to die.

[JoeMo]

cardw,

Quote:

It doesn't say this in the Bible. This is of particular relevance to those Seventh Day Adventist who consider the writings of Ellen White to be a clearer revelation.

Quote:

I have a life pretty much free from fear once I left Christianity.

I have a life As a Christian pretty much free from fear.

Quote:

Well, claiming transformation from beholding the Bible creates bigoted, mean spirited, and ignorant people.

Not always. You have even said there are some nice people you could probably get along with on CA. I hope I'm one of them.