Those who have left the Church

[CoAspen]

Anecdotal experiences are just that. They are just a story, neither right or wrong. Medicine does not rely on such experiences for determining results. That would be foolish. God did not create ignorant people or say not to use and increase their brain power. We may not have the abilities man was originally created with, but man is increasing in knowledge...for the better. A physician and a deep spiritual belief can go a long way towards healing but not necessarily a cure. Money has very little to do with it!!

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

Resident Pagan

would give understanding as to your response.

God cares!

How so?

[Guest arnie]

Bob,

Regarding people who have rejected the 3 angel's message of Revelation and who left the Adventist Church because of it's interpretation:

Maybe folks reject the Adventist version of the message rather than the message itself. Should the Church waste time on these folks? I get from your post that you think not. Stop being so "Adventisty" What is the meaning of the gospel anyway? I always thought it was that Jesus died for our mistakes, and He wants us to "Love Him with all our hearts, minds,and soul, and our neighbor as ourself". Adventists are so worried about all the details about how we are saved, what we are to believe. . .the investigative judgement, the Sabbath, the state of the dead, etc, etc, that the Church neglects and forgets to focus on the really important characteristics, like mercy, charity, love,understanding, acceptance, benevolence, and the list goes on. When people don't experience the above, they leave.

I watched a SDA Minister on 3 ABN today who proposed that all the other Protestant Churches teach the merits of the gospel and leave out the important stuff, like the Investigative Judgement, the Sabbath, the spirit of prophecy, and all the doctrinal issues that we espouse as SDA's. And afterall, our knowledge on these issues and acceptance of Adventist interpretation is what saves our sorry behinds. Right? And,well, certainly love, mercy, charity, understanding and acceptance and Jesus grace; all this stuff matters, but in an inferior sort of way. We like to refer to it as "cheap grace", you know, the way other denominations practice and teach this. Afterall, we're the church "that knows". Right? We have the Spirit of Prophecy by Ellen White. ( Although, correct most of the time, she was known to be wrong about more than a few things) May be as a Church we should be less talk and more do and take another look at what it means to embrace the gift of Jesus Grace and then we will want to share it with others who have left our presence and with those who are new.

[M. T. Cross]

Bob,

Regarding people who have rejected the 3 angel's message of Revelation and who left the Adventist Church because of it's interpretation:

Maybe folks reject the Adventist version of the message rather than the message itself. Should the Church waste time on these folks? I get from your post that you think not. Stop being so "Adventisty" What is the meaning of the gospel anyway? I always thought it was that Jesus died for our mistakes, and He wants us to "Love Him with all our hearts, minds,and soul, and our neighbor as ourself". Adventists are so worried about all the details about how we are saved, what we are to believe. . .the investigative judgement, the Sabbath, the state of the dead, etc, etc, that the Church neglects and forgets to focus on the really important characteristics, like mercy, charity, love,understanding, acceptance, benevolence, and the list goes on. When people don't experience the above, they leave.

I watched a SDA Minister on 3 ABN today who proposed that all the other Protestant Churches teach the merits of the gospel and leave out the important stuff, like the Investigative Judgement, the Sabbath, the spirit of prophecy, and all the doctrinal issues that we espouse as SDA's. And afterall, our knowledge on these issues and acceptance of Adventist interpretation is what saves our sorry behinds. Right? And,well, certainly love, mercy, charity, understanding and acceptance and Jesus grace; all this stuff matters, but in an inferior sort of way. We like to refer to it as "cheap grace", you know, the way other denominations practice and teach this. Afterall, we're the church "that knows". Right? We have the Spirit of Prophecy by Ellen White. ( Although, correct most of the time, she was known to be wrong about more than a few things) May be as a Church we should be less talk and more do and take another look at what it means to embrace the gift of Jesus Grace and then we will want to share it with others who have left our presence and with those who are new.

Great post over all. I want to touch on the part I highlighted at the end.

See I always think the best way to share something like that is by living your life by it. I have seen it in very few Christians of any denomination and in even less Adventists. I always thought that if it was real I should be able to see it touching the lives of those that followed this God. When I finally did find people that lived by that standard and who's lives were touched and live with grace, love, honour and dignity I found they worshiped completely different Gods. That was a bit of a mind melter let me tell you. But in the end I had to go with the evidence.......

E.T.A - I have finally found some Christians (mostly here at C/A) that live by that as well, but percentage wise they are a minority compared to the pagans I know that do.

[Grammy]

Hi yourself! Thank you for your response to my post.

I notice that your reply completely ignored the main point of my post and went directly to Sabbath observance. I find it sad and somewhat disturbing that my recollection of SDA's, while almost two decades in the past, is still pretty accurate. My hope is that Adventists (many of whom are my beloved family and dearest long-time friends) would come to focus on the Savior and His unfettered gift of forgiveness, love and grace, rather than on the weekly observance of a singular 24-hour period.

Praise God we found a precious group of people who love Jesus, believe in and teach from His Holy Word, and bear each other's burdens in a very real and practical way, exemplifying the commandments Jesus left for us: Love God supremely; Love your neighbor as yourself.

God bless!

[cricket]

Speaking as a third-generation SDA who left the church some 20 years ago, I need to say that in the first few posts on this thread several suggested that if someone has left the church, "let them go!" My own experience was that after 5 decades as an SDA and almost 20 years in denominational employment, we stopped attending the Adventist Church (where we had lived and were active members for 8 years), and apparently nobody cared. To this day, almost 20 years later, no one (not even the pastor) has EVER contacted us to see if we were OK or to learn why we decided to leave the church and go elsewhere. To me this is a sad commentary on a church that claims to have "The Truth" and be God's "Remnant." Somehow they do not compute.

We left Adventism for a variety of reasons, primarily doctrinal issues, extreme exclusivism, and the high level of regard for and dependence on Ellen White's writings, almost to the point of evaluating them above the Bible. We are not bitter or angry, but I am still amazed that our departure went unnoticed. This could NEVER happen to any member of the church we currently attend (yes, on Sundays), where the Savior is worshiped, where truth is taught exclusively from the Bible, and people are unusually loving and take care of each other.

I just thought perhaps you might like to hear this from the perspective of one who's been there and done that.

God bless!

Just wanted to add my experiences to yours. My husband and I haven't attended a SDA church in over 2 years and we haven't had anyone come to ask us why or see what's been going on. When we first joined the SDA church we had previously been members of a Lutheran church. When we left the Lutheran church, we didn't have anyone ask us why or come visit us then either. We were shocked and were told by our new SDA pastor that if we were to ever leave the SDA church he'd never let that happen.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

our knowledge on these issues and acceptance of Adventist interpretation is what saves our sorry behinds. Right?

As a practicing SDA who worships with a body of believing, loving, kind, thoughtful, SDAs, may I say, "wrong"!!!!! And they still keep all ten of our Father God's ten. not perfectly because, as far as I know, they each believe they have been saved by grace through faith in Jesus's cleansing blood.

Gotta go. We're meeting with that group in a little less than a half hour. Hope you had a :happy Sabbath:

P.S. We're meeting there because Jesus invited us and He wants us to let our light shine where the lost that He died for congregate.

God cares!

Quote:

And,well, certainly love, mercy, charity, understanding and acceptance and Jesus grace; all this stuff matters, but in an inferior sort of way. We like to refer to it as "cheap grace", you know, the way other denominations practice and teach this. Afterall, we're the church "that knows". Right? We have the Spirit of Prophecy by Ellen White. ( Although, correct most of the time, she was known to be wrong about more than a few things) May be as a Church we should be less talk and more do and take another look at what it means to embrace the gift of Jesus Grace and then we will want to share it with others who have left our presence and with those who are new.

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Cricket,

My husband and I left the SDA church in '89. But my faith is still strong, stronger in fact. You might like my website: prophecyviewpoint.com. I disagree with SDAs doctrinally on a few points, but still rest on the Sabbath. The commandment doesn't say we have to dress up and go to church. It just says "rest."

Personally, I like the permission from God to STOP "doing" and "doing" and "doing."

[debbym]

Quote:

I notice that your reply completely ignored the main point of my post and went directly to Sabbath observance. I find it sad and somewhat disturbing that my recollection of SDA's, while almost two decades in the past, is still pretty accurate. My hope is that Adventists (many of whom are my beloved family and dearest long-time friends) would come to focus on the Savior and His unfettered gift of forgiveness, love and grace, rather than on the weekly observance of a singular 24-hour period.

yes i agree, the Sabbath cannot save you or change your heart or forgive you. The virture in the Sabbath is not anything we can do, it is in Jesus the Lord of the Sabbath, who is first Lord of our hearts. If Love is not the life and center of your faith, and of your heart, and of the Sabbath, i dare say the Sabbath will become an utter curse.

It was to those who made a God of the letter of the law, and they wanted nothing more then to kill Jesus.

[debbym]

Quote:

Most Christians, and Adventists for that matter, think nothing of going to a medical doctor for healing and treatment of a physical malady. But the stigma and misunderstanding of psychological disorders is still in this modern age wrongly perceived as just a spiritual defect or weakness that needs only to be exercised like a demon.

there are all kinds of ways we suffer, and we are vulnerable when sufferiung to seek out relief. There are approaches to mental and emotional suffering that do not help that we can become deeply involved with. For example extensive hypnotherapy, endless sedative medications and years on the psychoanalyst's couch. These can end up soaking money and time and with no releif for misery.

Yhis is not to say there are not mental illnesses that are helped by medication and talk therapy. i believe there is different treatment for wounds and for diseases. there is quite a difference in medicine for disease compared to injuries.

wounds and woundedness are matters we seem to not be able to talk about as Christians, and as human beings. we can wound others, but we cannot heal them. healing virtue went out from Jesus and it still goes out from Jesus today. God binds up the wounds of every wounded person. I do believe it. No one is outside of God's care, anywhere on earth.

Some of us are just in situations where being hurt keeps happening, and we need to stop being wounded to start healing. if your church is a place where you are being injured and wounded, then it is good to get away from it to heal. pain tends to drive us into ourselvesis and away from God, but God who made us and understands us, comes near us to make himself known as the healer of wounds.

[OzarkWoman]

Bob,

Regarding people who have rejected the 3 angel's message of Revelation and who left the Adventist Church because of it's interpretation:

Maybe folks reject the Adventist version of the message rather than the message itself. Should the Church waste time on these folks? I get from your post that you think not. Stop being so "Adventisty" What is the meaning of the gospel anyway? I always thought it was that Jesus died for our mistakes, and He wants us to "Love Him with all our hearts, minds,and soul, and our neighbor as ourself". Adventists are so worried about all the details about how we are saved, what we are to believe. . .the investigative judgement, the Sabbath, the state of the dead, etc, etc, that the Church neglects and forgets to focus on the really important characteristics, like mercy, charity, love,understanding, acceptance, benevolence, and the list goes on. When people don't experience the above, they leave.

I watched a SDA Minister on 3 ABN today who proposed that all the other Protestant Churches teach the merits of the gospel and leave out the important stuff, like the Investigative Judgement, the Sabbath, the spirit of prophecy, and all the doctrinal issues that we espouse as SDA's. And afterall, our knowledge on these issues and acceptance of Adventist interpretation is what saves our sorry behinds. Right? And,well, certainly love, mercy, charity, understanding and acceptance and Jesus grace; all this stuff matters, but in an inferior sort of way. We like to refer to it as "cheap grace", you know, the way other denominations practice and teach this. Afterall, we're the church "that knows". Right? We have the Spirit of Prophecy by Ellen White. ( Although, correct most of the time, she was known to be wrong about more than a few things) May be as a Church we should be less talk and more do and take another look at what it means to embrace the gift of Jesus Grace and then we will want to share it with others who have left our presence and with those who are new.

Thank you so much. I have been saying all along that far too many Adventists seem to be legalists than part of true church family.

[OzarkWoman]

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Cricket said:

When seeking out "lost" souls, aren't we really seeking to stop a leak? Find out what went wrong. Patch it up. Save that soul that went through the cracks. Repair the hole. Make it stronger than it was before. Firm the foundation.

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I would say very good intentions. However it seems Rudywoofs reaction to Adventists at a time when she was wanting, but not necessarily desiring that want met by well meaning Adventists, reveals a wealth of understanding about what to do when individuals are still certain it is the fault of others that has caused them so much grief.

Cheers!

I have found that not ONE (1) member of the local church that I used to attend has ever called or visited and asked why I wasn't coming to church, not even the pastor. I would say that it shows that they don't care one iota about me, just the money is all. They continually talked up about the church family but don't act like family at all, at least to me anyway.

[OzarkWoman]

I tend to agree with you. I think the reason a lot of people leave is because they are not accepted, which goes back to relationships. They don't fit it with the established crowd and/or they feel judged.

I also think the reason we aren't more transparent in the church is because we know it is not safe. Safe groups like AA have very strict rules about confronting and confidentiality. The church does not. When church people gossip, very rarely are they confronted. Often they are the leaders doing it! Church discipline is almost unheard of, and probably a good thing since it is so rarely done in love, and discipline w/o love only distances people further. The church is viewed as you describe because it is well deserved.

I certainly could/can not be transparent in any of the churches I've attended regularly. I can't even be transparent on this or any other forum because you never know who is lurking. In that sense, I envy those who have left. Many of them are healthier for it.

I personally think it is probably too late, as well; the only way I can see it turning around is with well-trained small groups.

BINGO!!!! You hit it just right. My problem is that it started with the pastor's wife talking about me and revealing confidences and then it just rolled out of control. I haven't attended church for over 2 months now and not one person has called or come by or texted or anything to see how I am or to see what was going on. It proves my point exactly!!!

[Gail]

OW and carolaa, I know you have had a tough go of it, and I am sorry that decency has not been shown toward you.

I have done my share of erroneous relationship moves...

I think there needs to be more focus on godly living :(

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

I tend to agree with you. I think the reason a lot of people leave is because they are not accepted, which goes back to relationships. They don't fit it with the established crowd and/or they feel judged.

I also think the reason we aren't more transparent in the church is because we know it is not safe. Safe groups like AA have very strict rules about confronting and confidentiality. The church does not. When church people gossip, very rarely are they confronted. Often they are the leaders doing it! Church discipline is almost unheard of, and probably a good thing since it is so rarely done in love, and discipline w/o love only distances people further. The church is viewed as you describe because it is well deserved.

I certainly could/can not be transparent in any of the churches I've attended regularly. I can't even be transparent on this or any other forum because you never know who is lurking. In that sense, I envy those who have left. Many of them are healthier for it.

I personally think it is probably too late, as well; the only way I can see it turning around is with well-trained small groups.

BINGO!!!! You hit it just right. My problem is that it started with the pastor's wife talking about me and revealing confidences and then it just rolled out of control. I haven't attended church for over 2 months now and not one person has called or come by or texted or anything to see how I am or to see what was going on. It proves my point exactly!!!

OW,

I'm sorry that you've been treated so badly. I've been treated just as badly in more than one church. What it shows me though is that the church is made up of sinners, of which I am one. Thus, I can't judge those who have mistreated me, other than to judge them as being sinners just like me.

It's hard to forgive. I know. I'm not good at it by nature at all. I spent many years learning to hate rather than to forgive, so that's my natural way of seeing things. Fortunately God has been working with me lately on this. His way of working with me on it though has been to place me in a position where I'm treated so badly that it's very easy to despise/hate, and then convicting me as how little love I myself have been showing. It's been a hard lesson, but one that I appreciate as I really do want to become like Christ.

[Gail]

Group hug for those whom have felt pain and suffering due to sinful church people, no matter what church they are in:

We are only limited here... being in cyberspace. But it is better than being ill-treated by people who ARE where you are in the flesh.

May God bring some good for you all out of your experiences.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I appreciate as I really do want to become like Christ.

Never stop seeking.

"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."Jeremiah 29:13 NASB

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

we are left only to speculate a thousand and one possibilities

And that's really what man's best efforts come up with, whereas the believer in He Who created man, is more than willing to give the one answer that will help the most for both the believer and the non-believer.

"Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." John 14:5 NLT

Notice it didn't say "the ways, the truths, and the lives".

God Cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Anecdotal experiences are just that. They are just a story, neither right or wrong.

And that's just the reason why the Holy Word is not respected for what it is, the Living Word. It consists of anecdotal evidence. That's one reason Jesus left this advice.

"Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and trusted and relied on Me."John 20:29 AMP

God cares!

[joeb]

Never stop seeking.

"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."Jeremiah 29:13 NASB

God cares!

I like that text. It goes right along with Jesus' statement about the importance of having an eye that is either full of light, or full of darkness. I'm beginning to really understand that singleness of purpose is most likely the single most important attribute a Christian can have. I've known this for decades, but the truth of it has really been sinking its way home to another level lately.

Without singleness of purpose, we're lost, for we cannot serve both God and mammon. It's not a very popular truth, but there's no denying that it's true.

[LifeHiscost]

"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."Jeremiah 29:13 NASB

I like that text. It goes right along with Jesus' statement about the importance of having an eye that is either full of light, or full of darkness. I'm beginning to really understand that singleness of purpose is most likely the single most important attribute a Christian can have. I've known this for decades, but the truth of it has really been sinking its way home to another level lately.

Without singleness of purpose, we're lost, for we cannot serve both God and mammon. It's not a very popular truth, but there's no denying that it's true.

God cares!

[pierrepaul]

It seems there is some recognition these days that a member or former member can sincerely disagree with official SdA dogma. When I grew up it was drilled into us that there was no place for an ex-SdA to go, the argument being that the tenuous teachings on the sanctuary and sabbath were so obviously unassailable and one could not reject them without being in active rebellion against God. It is often assumed that most if not all ex-members still accept the SdA doctrines and are only staying away due to some personal conflict.

I left for about 10 years for doctrinal reasons and was always treated with kindness and understanding from all except one ex-clergyman (more on him later). I never entertained theological or doctrinal discussions with members who sought to win me back, for I had no desire to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of any. That one ex-clergyman accosted me (in private) one sabbath to tell me that I had to resign my membership, or he would make a motion to have me dis-fellowshipped at the church business meeting to be held the next week. This clergyman died of a heart attack four days later and my name was never brought up for dis-fellowship.

[Jeremiah 33:3]

Most today, if asked, have no idea what the three angels messages are. So here they are! The true 3 angels messages!

1) Fear (obey/reverence)God ONLY for the hour of His Judgement is COME! If you are worshiping other gods besides the ONE and only God of Heaven beware!

2) Obey ALL Ten of God's Commandments

3) Come OUT of all 501c3 (non-profit) churches Rev 18:4/Matt 25:26

Here is a picture I have been working on to share this end time warning message. A picture is worth a thousand words!

picture of three angels messages and more info here EndTimeWarning.com

[M. T. Cross]

Most today, if asked, have no idea what the three angels messages are. So here they are! The true 3 angels messages!

1) Fear (obey/reverence)God ONLY for the hour of His Judgement is COME! If you are worshiping other gods besides the ONE and only God of Heaven beware!

2) Obey ALL Ten of God's Commandments

3) Come OUT of all 501c3 (non-profit) churches Rev 18:4/Matt 25:26

Here is a picture I have been working on to share this end time warning message. A picture is worth a thousand words!

picture of three angels messages and more info here EndTimeWarning.com

Man I am dooooomed

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

Come OUT of all 501c3 (non-profit) churches

I guess that would make some of the fly-by-night tele-evangelists pretty happy..