About the Wealthy

[Stan]

We talk about outreach to the poor, those who are down and out and who 'really need Jesus' BUT we fail to plan an outreach to the wealthy as we feel they are fully satisfied.

Truth is they are not. Only Jesus can fill that spot in our heart that is empty.

Some good friends of mine, both (husband and wife) come from very famous and very wealthy families.

Both of the fathers committed suicide, as their burdens in life were heavier than they could bear, yet many would want all what they had.

[Gail]

Wealthy- or celebrity

[Stan]

both

[Dr. Shane]

I think that is what Casting Crowns is driving at with their "American Dream" song:

[:"purple"] “American Dream”

All work no play may have made Jack a dull boy

But all work no God has left Jack with a lost soul

But he's moving on full steam

He's chasing the American dream

And he's gonna give his family finer things

“Not this time son I've no time to waste

Maybe tomorrow we'll have time to play”

And then he slips into his new BMW

And drives farther and farther and farther away

Cause he works all day and tries to sleep at night

He says things will get better;

Better in time

[Chorus]

So he works and he builds with his own two hands

And he pours all he has in a castle made with sand

But the wind and the rain are comin' crashing in

Time will tell just how long his kingdom stands

His kingdom stands

Well his American Dream is beginning to seem

More and more like a nightmare

With every passing day

"Daddy, can you come to my game?"

"Oh Baby, please don't work late."

Another wasted weekend

And they are slipping away

'Cause he works all day and lies awake at night

He tells them things are getting better

Just take a little more time

[Chorus]

So he works and he builds with his own two hands

And he pours all he has in a castle made with sand

But the wind and the rain are comin' crashing in

Time will tell just how long his kingdom stands

His kingdom stands

He used to say, "Whoever dies with the most toys wins"

But if he loses his soul, what has he gained in the end

I'll take a shack on the rock

Over a castle in the sand

Now he works all day and cries alone at night

It's not getting any better

Looks like he's running out of time

[Chorus]

'Cause he worked and he built with his own two hands

And he poured all he had in a castle made with sand

But the wind and the rain are coming crashing in

Time will tell just how long his kingdom stands

His kingdom stands

All they really wanted was you

All they really wanted was you

All they really wanted was you

[Fading]was you

[/]

[Stan]

Thought this would have had more interest than it has...

[Dr. Shane]

There are a lot of wealthy people that really need Christ but most of us common folks are not in a position to minister to them.

[D. Allan]

It wouldn't surpise me if the truth is that the more of the wealthy have that emptiness inside than the non-wealthy.

In this society we tend to become a "consumers". The economic system needs consumers. Consumers "worship" things that man has made. Cars, computers, ipods, clothes, flatscreen tvs, etc.etc.etc.

The worst part is that man himself can become a thing to himself, a product of humans, - of society.

BE ECCENTRIC. Be your own creative selves!! consume less!<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/soapbox.gif" alt="" />

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Don't discount yourselves about being able to *witness* to the wealthy. Sometimes you don't know who you are talking to. A number of years ago I was walking down the hall where I worked and saw a old codger dressed in old overalls and a tattered shirt. I struck up a conversation with him and we just chatted for awhile (not about the gospel, though, as I was not a Christian at the time). Later I found out he was one of the wealthiest people in the US. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> You just never know...

[Nicodema]

Good analysis, CoAspen!

I'm not wealthy, but I grew up in the "upper middle class" and would count myself financially stable and comfortable, as well as reasonably educated (though not exceptionally so).

Yes, preying upon superstition and xenophobia just doesn't cut it for me. I'm not an angst-ridden suicidal teenager anymore; I'm not looking for Utopia or an escape from real life. I want to know how to be alive in all senses, really alive, alert, in touch, plugged in, integrated, and making a difference in this world. I don't want to be comforted concerning death and I don't need to see my enemies crushed under the feet of some hairy ultimate Big Brother come to beat them up on my behalf. I want to know how to live here, now, today -- and how to make all those cool things Jesus talked about REAL in my life. Not through religion, not through a bunch of vacuous dos & don'ts that don't matter to anyone but my vain self how perfectly I conform, but through a dynamic deepening of my spiritual awareness and compassion, and an increased cognizance of those around me and what they need from me.

[Naomi]

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CoAspen said:

There are a lot of wealthy people that really need Christ but most of us common folks are not in a position to minister to them. Christ was a 'common folk' and ministered to everyone! So, if we are to emulate Him...ah, yes we can!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

CoAspen, you have identified the issues involved with ministering to the "upper crust" I am only tacking on to your assessment of the issues involved.

First, I believe, with good reason, that many do have an interest, though perhaps often unrecognized, a strong desire for the spiritual part of their being. I have found that the super rich people have the same needs, emotions, insecurities, tendencies towards depression as the beggar on the street.

IMHO, we must have a common interest to be in a position to "minister" to them. Just as it would be difficult for me to have a common interest with a person of the streets, so is it difficult for the very rich to have a common interest with me: unless we have other interest, talents, hobbies which are the same.

Because a person is rich or famous does not mean they have feelings different than ours. However, their thought process and social commitments are not the same as a lower-income person.

Rich or poor, famous or not, we all tend to gravitate towards those with whom we have a common interest. First there must be a relationship, then respect. We must conduct ourselves, and live our lives, in such a way that when we are in a social situation we project a secure, positive image that others notice and desire. We should not feel intimidated by any one, on any social/economic level ... We ARE the son's and daughter's of a King. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

Christ was 'common folk' however he knew he was the Son of God and even with no roof to call his own I know of no situation in which he felt intimidated or subservient to any rich man or ruler. He conducted himself with confidence, dignity and assurance that His Father would take care of him. Should we do less?

Not all that he ministered to followed him, not all that we minister to will follow us. We are only the planters of the seed ... the Holy Spirit can tend to the seedlings.

Naomi

[olger]

Been a lot of millionaires jump from the Golden Gate bridge.

olger

[Dr. Shane]

Who are the common folk that are going to be in a position to minister to the wealthy?

Their maids, janitors, limo drivers, pilots, hair stylists? They don't deal directly with many of the common folks. It is almost as if they live in a different world.

[aldona]

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Nicodema said:

Good analysis, CoAspen!

I'm not wealthy, but I grew up in the "upper middle class" and would count myself financially stable and comfortable, as well as reasonably educated (though not exceptionally so).

Yes, preying upon superstition and xenophobia just doesn't cut it for me. I'm not an angst-ridden suicidal teenager anymore; I'm not looking for Utopia or an escape from real life. I want to know how to be alive in all senses, really alive, alert, in touch, plugged in, integrated, and making a difference in this world. I don't want to be comforted concerning death and I don't need to see my enemies crushed under the feet of some hairy ultimate Big Brother come to beat them up on my behalf. I want to know how to live here, now, today -- and how to make all those cool things Jesus talked about REAL in my life. Not through religion, not through a bunch of vacuous dos & don'ts that don't matter to anyone but my vain self how perfectly I conform, but through a dynamic deepening of my spiritual awareness and compassion, and an increased cognizance of those around me and what they need from me.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Careful, Nico...when we talk like that, we are exposing ourselves as "worldly" people who have been influenced by "higher education", and therefore we are incapable of "true faith", which means "shut up, don't think, don't feel, don't ask questions, and don't make the rest of us feel like hicks merely by your presence."

Let's face it...most organised religions (not just the SDA church), deep down, don't want wealthy people or educated people. They feel guilty that they don't seem to be "reaching out" to all, so they try to pay lip service to throwing around a few ideas on how to proselytise to them.

They want the wealthy person's money. It's a wonderful boost for a church to baptise a walking ATM who just goes around signing checks for everybody's pet causes. But as to what goes on in the heart and soul of the wealthy or educated person themselves, what their longings are and their struggles, it doesn't even register.

Most wealthy/ educated people I know conduct their spiritual quest in private, through their own reading, thinking, exploring, meditating, maybe discussing with one or two trusted people. Just because they do not immediately jump at an invitation from their maid to go to a Revelation Seminar, does not mean they are not interested in spirituality.

aldona

[Nicodema]

Aldona you said a mouthful -- as usual -- I always enjoy your insightful posts!!

While there's a touch of the cynical in your statements, there's far more truth than cynicism. Some of it may be hard-boiled reality, but it's reality nonetheless.

It is pretty incredible to think that the anti-intellectualism that practically DEFINES churchianity of various types (or at least runs rampant and unchecked and thus is, by default, condoned) can co-exist unawares with the effort to pay lip service to a desire to "reach out" to those it lambasts, and neither blinks an eye of acknowledgement toward, or awareness of, the other. Hello?

I'd go to a Revelation seminar myself -- if they'd let me talk some too, and get real answers to the questions and issues I have. At this point I've exhausted their repetoire of standard responses, and found that well exceedingly dry. What else is one to conclude other than that one shall have to look elsewhere for refreshment and the quenching of thirst?

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Most wealthy/ educated people I know conduct their spiritual quest in private, through their own reading, thinking, exploring, meditating, maybe discussing with one or two trusted people.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I think that goes for the overwhelming majority of people in general - regardless if they are wealthy or not.

I am in a position where I can witness to many small business owners that I work with. I am open about my faith and share it with others as opportunity allows. However most average church members are not in a position such as mine but... perhaps more are than they are aware of.

[Naomi]

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Shane said:

I am in a position where I can witness to many small business owners that I work with. I am open about my faith and share it with others as opportunity allows. However most average church members are not in a position such as mine but... perhaps more are than they are aware of.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Please forgive me if what I am about to say sounds as though I am not willing to share my faith. Or that I am not

receptive to others who are verbally "sharing" their faith.

However, in a professional situation I am uncomfortable when someone begans to talk about their religion. My guard goes up. I immediately feel that they are attempting to "convert" me to their denomination/belief structure.

And, I am sorry to say, experience has taught me that the more people talk-it-up the most, actually seldom pratice what they preach.

This is not meant to be personally addressed to anyone, just my observations and life's experiences.

The same could be said of people who introduce politics into a professional situation.

Conversly, the people who conduct themselves in a christin manner catch my attention. I pray that the same is true in my interaction with others.

Usually, given adequate time to build a relationship we develop mutual respect. At that time we are able to share what we believe....one step at a time.

Just my :2cents:

Naomi

[Nicodema]

Naomi, I'm inclined to agree with you there.

I had so MANY bad experiences when I was a naive, wide-eyed, wet-behind-the-ears new SDA at the age of 16. I was so thrilled to have "found the truth" and "found Jesus" and I wanted to share it with everyone I met -- and I'm afraid in so doing I turned a lot of people off.

No one was more astonished and unhappily surprised at their reaction than I, but it taught -- no, programmed is a much more accurate word, because "teaching" happens through conscious participation while "programming" bypasses your consent and engagement -- programmed me, then, that discussion of one's faith was simply outright unwelcome with most folk, and would not result in an interested hearer brightening up and saying, "Oh, tell me more! How can I be with Jesus?" but rather would result only in people shunning me and curtailing any hope of either telling them about OR SHOWING them my faith through actions.

I pretty much clammed up a couple years later -- and of course when Satan came for me I didn't have anything left to share at that point -- and I've not un-clammed since.

[Gail]

Aldona, I am so happy that you fellowship here with us!

Who knows what circles we will be called to witness to? Most likely we will be sent to something outside our comfort zone. I find that with me strange things come out of me that I didn't know were there when God does that. He's just showing me that He knows me better than I do...

Still learning <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

in a professional situation I am uncomfortable when someone begans to talk about their religion.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I use to feel the same way and believe most Adventists agree with that. This is perhaps why so many of the wealthy are not being reached, are living without Christ and dying without salvation. I realized I was wrong when after studying with a Japanesse student in college for four years I happened to mention something about my church. He jumped back and exclaimed, "You are a Christian!" and I confessed, "yes." He went on to tell me he had noticed something different about me, particully that I never used any vulgarity but he never knew why but now, knowing that I was a Christian, he understood. It was then I relized that if I didn't open my mouth, people wouldn't know. In Romans Paul says people cannot believe without hearing and cannot hear without a preacher.

I was in a meeting with a plumbing contractor, two engineers, an architect and myself. The plumbing contractor's cell phone rang and he answered it, kept it short and after hanging up, looked at the rest of us and asked, "Do you folks know how wonderful it is to have a Christian for a wife?" No one knew how to respond and then he said, "Well, you can ask Shane, he has a wonderful Christian wife."

Another time, a different plumbing contractor came into my office and started telling my secretary how rewarding it is to go into the prisons and share Christ with the prisoners.

Last week, after two years of me encouraging her, my unchurched secretaty told me she decided to go to church.

I think one of the greatest errors is for us to remain silent about our faith. We do need to find ways to share it tactfully without being aggressive or intrusive. I, for example, encouraged my secretary to go to her church, the church she was baptised in as a baby. Whatever the way is, it needs to be verbal. No matter how kind and nice we are, people are not going to know we are Christians unless we tell them.

[Naomi]

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Shane said:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

in a professional situation I am uncomfortable when someone begans to talk about their religion.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I think one of the greatest errors is for us to remain silent about our faith.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Shane, I couldn't agree more. However, there is a difference in making a comment and overwhelming a person with "God-talk". Further, my point is that many 'talk the talk, but do not walk the walk'.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

We do need to find ways to share it tactfully without being aggressive or intrusive.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Exactly my point.

[LifeHiscost]

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Naomi said:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Shane said:

Further, my point is that many 'talk the talk, but do not walk the walk'.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I heard a Christian say once, "Blossom where you're planted".

In America, most of whom we meet are wealthy in terms of material wealth. Unless one is specifically called to minister to the wealthy alone, why should we ever restrict our ministering to the wealthy.

One could say money (material wealth) makes one worse. it certainly doesn't seem on average, to make one better. In fact it seems that just the opposite is true if we would take many of the notorious examples of Bible characters as examples.

Most of my life I've lived in what America calls "under the poverty level". In watching a number of programs featuring

3rd world activity among the working people of those countries, I found that I am privileged by God's grace to enjoy a material existence in which about 50% or more of the worlds population, live on less than 2% of what I enjoy.

I find it easy to place myself in the category described by the angel speaking to the Laodicean church.

[:"red"] "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." [/] Rev 3:17,18 KJV

If it is true, as the bible says, and I believe it is, that the rich already have their reward, then I would say we all as Christians in America can say, thank God we're saved by grace.

[:"red"] "`None is able to serve two lords, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to the one, and despise the other; ye are not able to serve God and Mammon. " [/] Matt 6:24 YLT

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[Naomi]

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Gail said:

Aldona, I am so happy that you fellowship here with us!

Who knows what circles we will be called to witness to? Most likely we will be sent to something outside our comfort zone. I find that with me strange things come out of me that I didn't know were there when God does that. He's just showing me that He knows me better than I do...

Still learning <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Gail,

I agree ... if we truly prepare ourselves and ask for the Holy Spirit to guide, it will speak through us and things will work out the way they are supposed to work.

If we "force" the issue, then it is our ego speaking and our "seeds" will be planted on unfertile ground.

Naomi

[Naomi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Nicodema said:

It is pretty incredible to think that the anti-intellectualism that practically DEFINES churchianity of various types (or at least runs rampant and unchecked and thus is, by default, condoned) can co-exist unawares with the effort to pay lip service to a desire to "reach out" to those it lambasts, and neither blinks an eye of acknowledgement toward, or awareness of, the other. Hello?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Aldoma & Nicodema,

I have wrestled with myself for a couple of days as to whether or not address your statements/sentiments.

In all due respect, I must address the thoughts which you expressed.

Frankly, I feel offended for many whom I know very well. I am referring to individuals who would be considered "the very wealthy” and exceedingly intelligent and well educated. I have made a point of addressing this issue with a couple of different people from different areas in the US, and one from Italy. They are practicing SDA's. Neither do they feel their education/intelligency level has done anything except further their appreciation for Biblical truths, nor do they feel as though they are treated like walking ATM's.

Moreover, I contacted a PhD who is in a rather high leadership position and he tells me that they do not approach their "extremely rich or relatively rich" members to solicit donations for special projects. When it is given freely and ear-marked for a special project (often anonymously),needless to say, they are extremely thankful.

As for levels of intelligence, and education, I think you would be surprised at the average level of education/and level of intelligence (higher education not always a factor) represented in our churches, and here on this board.

I regret that your particular life-experiences which have made you feel differently.

Naomi

[Naomi]

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Nicodema said:

I'd go to a Revelation seminar myself -- if they'd let me talk some too, and get real answers to the questions and issues I have. At this point I've exhausted their repetoire of standard responses, and found that well exceedingly dry. What else is one to conclude other than that one shall have to look elsewhere for refreshment and the quenching of thirst?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Nico,

This is probably a mute question, because I am sure you have tried. Perhaps more than once. But, have you studied, privately, with a well informed, compatable, person(s) in an environment that you feel at ease and covered the spirtuial issues in which you need to "dig deeper?"

Naomi

[Nicodema]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Naomi said:Nico, This is probably a mute question, because I am sure you have tried. Perhaps more than once. But, have you studied, privately, with a well informed, compatable, person(s) in an environment that you feel at ease and covered the spirtuial issues in which you need to "dig deeper?"

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

NO, absolutely not, NEVER!!! I have never HAD such an opportunity.