About the Wealthy

[Naomi]

You might want to contact Faith For Today, or VP and see if there is someone in your area who would come to your home, or met you someplace rather private and study the lessons, one step at a time. Granted the initial lessons are extremely basic, hoever they are building up to the deeper issues.

Someone else on the forum may have more specific information for your area.

[Nicodema]

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Naomi said:

You might want to contact Faith For Today, or VP and see if there is someone in your area who would come to your home, or met you someplace rather private and study the lessons, one step at a time. Granted the initial lessons are extremely basic, hoever they are building up to the deeper issues.

Someone else on the forum may have more specific information for your area.

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I'll keep an open mind, Naomi, but from what you're saying here, it sounds like you might have some very different ideas from me as to what constitutes "private study with a well informed, compatable, person...cover[ing] the spiritual issues in which I need to 'dig deeper'." And there's the rub, isn't it? Because so will they.

[Naomi]

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Nicodema said:

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Naomi said:

I'll keep an open mind, Naomi, but from what you're saying here, it sounds like you might have some very different ideas from me as to what constitutes "private study with a well informed, compatable, person...cover[ing] the spiritual issues in which I need to 'dig deeper'." And there's the rub, isn't it? Because so will they.

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I believe that you are seriously seeking, IMHO, It's worth a try. Sometimes, even though we know and understand the basics it is good to start there ... the 2300 days in relationship to history to bring us to today and why we believe the Bible in its entirety.

Sometimes you may agree, sometimes disagree. Sometimes agree to disagree. Sometimes in private Bible Studies we have found it best to "table" an issue and in subsequent studies it all comes together. The key is to make a commitment to stick with it, no matter what, and then see where the Holy Spirit leads. What have you lost except a few hours each week?

In the Revelation Seminars which I have conducted there just isn’t time for a lot of discussion. I usually have people write their questions on a piece of paper and leave them at the door when they leave and attempt to answer the relevant questions the next night.

That is why I suggested private lessons. Yes, they require commitment (on both sides) take time, prayer and study. But, everything worthwhile takes commitment, work study and mutual respect and good-fashioned study; right? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Naomi

[Robert]

My thoughts of your post directed me immediately to Rev 3:17

"For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked."

Jesus also stated, "How hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!" Matt 19:24

This world in preoccupied with getting things. Yes, even we Christians, but I suspect to a lesser degree. So the mentality when someone makes it big is to think that his/her riches come from god. Hence many rich people look at themselves as having arrived and are therefore in need of nothing. How can one reach such a person?

Rob

[Robert]

Maybe those who are rich and believers can talk to those who are rich and are unbelievers?

[Nicodema]

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Naomi said:

Sometimes you may agree, sometimes disagree. Sometimes agree to disagree. Sometimes in private Bible Studies we have found it best to "table" an issue and in subsequent studies it all comes together. The key is to make a commitment to stick with it, no matter what, and then see where the Holy Spirit leads. What have you lost except a few hours each week?

That is why I suggested private lessons. Yes, they require commitment (on both sides) take time, prayer and study. But, everything worthwhile takes commitment, work study and mutual respect and good-fashioned study; right? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Like I said ... the problem here is finding an educated, compatible person not only willing but capable of covering/handing the spiritual issues I would want to dig into and not relying on the same old crusty, stale, prefabricated sheep dip for the masses which hasn't worked for me in the past.

Otherwise, my time would be entirely wasted.

I have time to spare. But not time to waste.

My experience has been, if you don't tow the line and swallow the dogma wholesale, you are regarded as a challenge. If you then demonstrate your intelligence and grasp of a subject beyond the other, you're regarded as an exercise in futility, and summarily dismissed. But they never just do it by saying "sorry, I'm not up to this" and leaving. No, they ALWAYS have to leave you with the taste of Armageddon between your teeth when they beat a retreat.

There are other factors too that figure in here, on deeper levels, but I'm not going to bring them into this discussion because I don't have any hope for them being understood or taken seriously. So we'll just leave it at that.

It is so infuriating that no one will just credit me with possessing the half brain cell it takes to PENETRATE how something works and KNOW that unless an utterly miraculous exception, a total fluke and freak of nature as it were, emerges, I've been there, done that, and know that repeating the cycle isn't going to produce the results I'm after.

The last time someone impressed me, his wife got in the way -- more in his head than in her reality, actually -- and ruined the entire thing. Instead of having someone I could finally wrestle my spiritual stuff with I got caught up in stupid gender-based nonsense generated entirely from the insides of their immature, insecure heads fraught with a nice toxic dose of religious malarkey to cement the kibosh. That was 21 years ago and it traumatized me severely. I was being treated like a slu.t and a wh*re for no other reason than the fact that I happened to be female, when I had not so much as given the guy the eye. He was simply terrified of his own sexuality, I guess, but why should that be MY fault and MY problem and why should *I* be penalized for that garbage? (Oh believe you me if I could get away with it my language at this point would not be so tame.)

Anyway this thread is getting SERIOUSLY derailed ... so we should probably take this conversation elsewhere. I don't want people thinking I'm here to turn every thread into the Nico Show. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/icon_smile_sick.gif" alt="" />

[Naomi]

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Nicodema said:

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Like I said ... the problem here is finding an educated, compatible person not only willing but capable of covering/handing the spiritual issues I would want to dig into and not relying on the same old crusty, stale, prefabricated sheep dip for the masses which hasn't worked for me in the past.

Otherwise, my time would be entirely wasted.

I have time to spare. But not time to waste.

My experience has been, if you don't tow the line and swallow the dogma wholesale, you are regarded as a challenge. If you then demonstrate your intelligence and grasp of a subject beyond the other, you're regarded as an exercise in futility, and summarily dismissed. But they never just do it by saying "sorry, I'm not up to this" and leaving. No, they ALWAYS have to leave you with the taste of Armageddon between your teeth when they beat a retreat.

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I am sadden that you have had such negative experiences. FWIW, even when we do have such experiences letting them leave you feeling hurt, angry, etc I wish you could let go. As my Daddy always said, "No matter how they hurt you. Don't loose signt of the cross. Don't let anybody take your crown"

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There are other factors too that figure in here, on deeper levels, but I'm not going to bring them into this discussion because I don't have any hope for them being understood or taken seriously. So we'll just leave it at that.

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Gotch

[Dr. Shane]

Didn't you say you go to church with Clifford Goldstien? He is a pretty bright guy.

[Nicodema]

Naomi - letting go has nothing to do with it. It's not as if I'm still sitting here 20 years later filled with fresh hurt and rage and wanting to strangle somebody or something. But like the old saying goes, live and learn. Like any other normal, healthy human being, I am not eager to place myself in a position where "it" can happen to me again.

You can understand that, can't you? It's simple programmatic logic. If every time you try to do X, the result is Y, and Y is something painful and unpleasant, anyone with half a brain cell learns one simple thing: don't do X. Definition of insanity: repeating the same thing over and over again while expecting different results. This is not hard. This is not complicated. It's the same logic we use in offering negative reinforcers to our children when we want to train them AWAY from something. This is nothing more than what any human being would do in the same situation regardless of what the subject was. You get burned, you learn not to put your hand there. "Once bitten, twice shy" and all of that.

Shane -- I used to, but we've moved. That church would be at least a 2 hours' drive for me now. And anyway even were it not so, Mr. Cliff is a right busy man with no time for the likes of me.

[Dr. Shane]

Clifford has a program on Hope TV called "Cliff" you may enjoy.

Here is the Schedule.

You can warch online if you don't have a dish. Home TV

There is more information about it here on C/A Cliff! Intellectual Stimulation

[Nicodema]

Thanks Shane, I'll have a look at those. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Naomi]

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Nicodema said:

Naomi - ...................

You can understand that, can't you? It's simple programmatic logic. If every time you try to do X, the result is Y, and Y is something painful and unpleasant, anyone with half a brain cell learns one simple thing: don't do X. ..................

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Usually I function with at least half a brain cell. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> When someone makes a statement, or explains a theory, I usually "get it" the first time ... but appreciate your efforts in thoroughly explaining "logic".

Every person who ever walked upon this earth has had the opportunity to make his/her own, personal choice.

~~~~~~~~~~

Another old country quote, "In the day of judgement, every tub has gotta sit on it's own bottom."

Naomi

[Nicodema]

It's not a "choice".

You still don't get it.

[Naomi]

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Nicodema said:

It's not a "choice".

You still don't get it.

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<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You may be correct; one of us doesn't get it.

[Nicodema]

Um, no, Naomi ... it's about me, therefore I am the one who knows how it is, and you are the one who doesn't get it. There is no question as to the "who".

[Naomi]

ABM

Whatever .....

[Nicodema]

"ABM"?

[phkrause]

Well Bevin will be happy! Just joking. When I was in the army during the vietnam encounter, Clifford went to our church in NYC. Many jews from what my mom said were brought to christ through him.

pkrause

[Dr. Shane]

I think this thread is suppose to be about the wealthy. At least that is what the title says.

[Nicodema]

Cliff is wealthy. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Ted Oplinger]

I'm not a wealthy man, but I have friends and family who would be considered so by most Adventists.

Why aren't the wealthy outreached? I asked the same of our church, whenever a new evangelism is promoted. The wealthy sections of the area are never targeted - only the lower middle class and poor...so, before the wealthy could possibly walk in the door, they have already been singled out as an unworthy group to labor for, as this class of people doesn't add great totals to baptism counts for pastors.

Those who are wealthy will go to church, but they will go where they are welcomed and are comfortable.

I have seen a wealthy couple targeted to be a "cash cow" to fund several projects and ministries - or be labelled and scorned as selfish and worldly for not doing so.

Who has the greater problem with riches? The one who has them, or the ones without but covet those riches for their own use? Truly, I can say, the largest problem with coveting and materialism doesn't lay with the rich/wealthy, but rather those without. Incidentally, this is a key driving force in much of thesocio-economic class warfare/conflict seen today.

Not having grown up within the SDA culture, but being an SDA for the last 20 years, I have observed a very skewed perspective Adventists have towards the wealthy who did not grow up as Adventists - we tend to view them negatively as being "so worldly" because they have succeeded economically - essentially, viewed as modern day Zaccheus types. Yet, on a certain day, Christ Himself visited this man who was scorned by his local neighbors - and left him a changed man.

I'm of the opinion that Christ died for all, regardless of how successful they are in life. The rich are just as much in need of the Gospel as the poor, yet how little we try to reach them on terms they can appreciate and understand, without the usual condemnations of how hard it is for those trusting in riches to be saved.

While that last statement is indeed true, I rather focus upon the One who said those words - and also personally brought three very wealthy, very worldly men into His Father's presence without referring to those words. One of those men went on to write one of the Gospels, which bears his name - Matthew, the Tax-Collector turned Apostle.

I note that these men were not approached because they had money, but because Christ recognized each felt a need for something that their money could never buy. Christ never did lay upon them any persuasion for the use of their wealth after their lives were so changed - He left the spending of those monies to their descretion. So...while Matthew Levi threw a lavish party right after conversion, and invited Jesus to attend (again, meeting the wealthy on their ground), Zaccheus began portioning out his wealth and returning back to those he had extorted so much.

How many SDA's do we know that would scorn the first as not really converted, yet praise the latter?

Then, I must conclude with another note: the Biblical account tells me the disciple who displayed so much concern for how large amounts of money should be treated...was the one who eventually betrayed Jesus.

So, really, why do we not reach out to the rich and wealthy?

Food for thought...

[Robert]

...we fail to plan an outreach to the wealthy as we feel they are fully satisfied.

And many are! They are hard to reach because they feel blessed of the God. Just as the Jews in Christ day looked at a rich man as blessed of God for his goodness, so today many have the same mentality. Perhaps that is why Christ refers to this worldly thought as "the deceitfulness of riches."