Teen pregnancy

[Stan]

If there is ever a time when a pregnant teen or young adult needs support of her Church family it is then.

BUT we have to show an example to the kids on how we treat people who 'sin'.... right???

[Dr. Shane]

Man's tragidy is often God's opportunity. If handled right, a teen pregnancy can bring about repentance and commitment to the Lord.

[cricket]

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BUT we have to show an example to the kids on how we treat people who 'sin'.... right???

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I hope this is not an equivalent statement to "We should teach them a lesson."

Showing them how we treat people who sin should be showing them how we openly love and accept them as equals. Those who wish to cast stones had better run and duck for cover!

[Gail]

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Stan Jensen said:

If there is ever a time when a pregnant teen or young adult needs support of her Church family it is then.

BUT we have to show an example to the kids on how we treat people who 'sin'.... right???

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This happened in a major way in one of our local churches. One ultra conservative lady was opposed to supporting one of the church's pregnant teens and went after the pastor's wife about it. She yelled at her (and if you knew this pastor's wife she is one of the meekest people I know) and said, What would you do if this was YOUR daughter? and came out with the regular "what kind of example are we setting" excuse.

The pastor's wife turned to her and repeated the question back at her, "What would YOU do if it was YOUR daughter?"

Well, as circumstances would have it, one day the conservative lady's teenage daughter DID become pregnant out of wedlock.

I have no idea what happened next, although all members involved are presently still involved in the Lord's work, so it all ended well

You just never know...

[Stan]

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Cricket said:

Showing them how we treat people who sin should be showing them how we openly love and accept them as equals. Those who wish to cast stones had better run and duck for cover!

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AMEN

We are all sinners, some get caught others do not..

AND just like my experience with those who ramble on and on at board meetings. Those who yell the loudest at the unwed mother are too often covering a HUGE multitude of sins themselve....

[Gail]

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AND just like my experience with those who ramble on and on at board meetings. Those who yell the loudest at the unwed mother are too often covering a HUGE multitude of sins themselve....

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I don't know if I would go so far as to conjecture on that, but there are just some people who seem to hone in on other people's sins and bring attention to them

[Dr. Shane]

I have worked with pregnant teens outside of the church. I have never worked with one that was a church member although I have belonged to a church were a teenage boy got his girlfriend pregnant.

I approach the teen as if they already see they made a mistake and are repentant. Which isn't always the case but I give them that benefit of the doubt. It was a sexual sin after all, which shouldn't be considered among the worst. A person does more damage to others with malicious gossip then they do by having sex outside of marriage with one they hope to marry someday.

[Gail]

Thanks for the understanding comment, Shane

[aldona]

Just tagging on here...

If the young girl chose to just quietly slip away and have an abortion, nobody would be any the wiser and her family would still be GOOD and UPRIGHT members of the church board...and the church would still have its bright, shiny and clean face to show the world...and she would get to keep her position in the youth choir/ Pathfinders/ whatever without the embarrassment of having to watch her belly expand...

How many times must this be happening, no doubt seen as the easier option rather than have to go through 9 months of persecution and righteous indignation?

If a young woman chooses to keep the baby and not abort it, then she needs 100% support from the church, every step of the way.

aldona

[Gail]

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If the young girl chose to just quietly slip away and have an abortion, nobody would be any the wiser and her family would still be GOOD and UPRIGHT members of the church board...and the church would still have its bright, shiny and clean face to show the world...and she would get to keep her position in the youth choir/ Pathfinders/ whatever without the embarrassment of having to watch her belly expand...

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Yup- happened to one of my daughter's friends. She was about 16 or so at the time. Mother held important positions in the church

Trouble is- historically the people in our couple of immediate area churches are pretty supportive when this happens. The girl could have gone ahead and had it

Either way it is a BIG situation for the family involved

[olger]

I note with interest the passion that this topic generates.

There is always a reason that people are in moral failure. We should help people resolve the cause Biblically, if they are willing.

1) Each of us agree that attacking a person in moral failure will not help. It will push them away emotionally. People know when they are sinning, attacking them will only lead them to be defensive.

2) Ignoring the problem is an unBiblical response. If the person is a member, the body of Jesus Christ has a moral obligation to address the issue in a way that will bring healing & maturity to all.

Is there a Biblical pattern to address moral failure? Yes there is:

Psalm 32.

In verses 1-2 he confesses his moral failure.

Verses 3-4 reveals the consequences of not confessing.

In verse 5 David acknowledges his sin.

In verses 6-8, God responds to David's heart with three pictures.

Verse 9. God warns as to the cause of his moral failure.

Verse 11, David praises God.

This pattern builds maturity and healing into the Body. Moral sin will never be resolve apart from repentance. The church must speak the truth in love and lead people to freedom.

olger

[Gail]

Well said!

[cricket]

When addressing Biblically moral failure, it is important to remember that the teenager is not the only one who is failing morally. It would be wise then, to have a whole group of people willing to follow this pattern and to undergo the addressing of their sins together. (By the way, if you can't find a group of people who've sinned, just ask the teenager to point a few out--they know more than they let on!)

It could be a great Sabbath School--and one done on a rotating basis as all have sinned and fall short according to God.

Catholics, I think, already have a system like this set up.

[Dr. Shane]

I think that anyone who views abortion as the easy way out has not chose that option or been intimately involved with someone who has. I have. It would be much easier emotionally to carry the baby, deal with judgemental hypercrits and give the baby up for adoption than to deal with the emotional, post-abortion issues that most women, and nearly all Christian women, have to deal with that choose that route.

[aldona]

Not saying that abortion is necessarily the easier option for the young lady, just the one that seems to generate less negative publicity within the church.

aldona

[Nan]

Just tagging along, I am not putting any view on abortion forward -

Dealing with adoption in the long term - for the mother and the child - is not necessarily an easy option either, even if it is seen as preferable to abortion. This is said from the background of a recent family tragedy, (which I am not making public) and observing the emotions I have seen adopted children and their natural parents go through. Sometimes the outcome is wonderful - but it is NOT the universal panacea.

[Gregory Matthews]

Just tagging on here:

Why do we seem to assume that the pregnant teen has committed a moral sin?

Why is there no acknowledgment that she may have been raped, and that she is to immature to realize that?

If she says "no," and it happens, it is rape. It does not matter that she may has said "yes" to touch. Once she said "no" it became rape.

Don't tell me that once he touched, he was out of control, and no longer responsible. He was responsible at every moment of time.

I think that we sometimes make the female the easy target, because she is obvious, we males do not want to accept responsibility, and we all often to not think through the dynamics of the situation.

Rape occurs more often than we realize.

One of the craziest thing that people do, and I have seen it happen a number of times: A couple announces their engagement, but there seems to be no joy in it. Then two weeks later the engagement is off. The world now knows that the biological clock has worked and the world now knows that Susie is not pregnant. Why they could have announced their recreational activities in a newspaper article.

Folks, if I sound cynical, sometimes I am. I think that we often pick an easy target and assume that which is not known. I personally think that a fair number of teen pregnancies occur due to rape--not all, but some.

[Gregory Matthews]

Let me follow-up with a true story, that comes from my background:

I wasn't much into dating while I was in High School. A male friend and I had attended some sort of a church program on Saturday evening. I was driving, and we decided that it would be fun to follow the car that had a male friend of ours, and his female date. My friend had poor vision. As the couple we followed arrived at the Girls' home I had to describe the activities of the couple as they parted for the night. My friend became quite excited as i described them kissing: Is she really letting him kiss her? And such.

The next week, my friend was dating the girl.

It was not long before they annunced their pending marriage. But, there was no joy in the couple. Two weeks later, biology worked, and they announced that the engagement was off, and they never dated again.

I think it was rape. I think my friend set out to get her.

I think that rape happens more often that is recognized.

[cricket]

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Folks, if I sound cynical, sometimes I am. I think that we often pick an easy target and assume that which is not known.

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At least you recognize that we often assume that which is not known.

Why do you assume then, that your friend set out to get her? Why do you assume the girl he was dating was raped?

Certainly, there have been times when a boy and girl got engaged, no sex was involved and then, abruptly their engagement was called off.

/passing the tweezers, my splinter's out

[Dr. Shane]

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Why do we seem to assume that the pregnant teen has committed a moral sin?

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Is a moral sin the opposite of a sin of ignorance? I am not familiar with that termonolgy.

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Why is there no acknowledgment that she may have been raped, and that she is to immature too realize that?

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In the situations I have worked with, I have known both the boy and girl and there never was a question of rape. In the situations I have worked with the couples claimed to be in love.

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I think that we sometimes make the female the easy target

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This is not my experience at all. Quite the contrary. The female has gotten the break by her family and friends where I have been involved. The boy, on the other hand, has gotten the swift kick in the seat of the pants.

In the one case I was involved with where the boy was a church member and the girl was an unbeliever, the girl was given a complete pass. She was, afterall, a nonbeliever so premarital sex was no big deal for her. She was not expected to be held to a higher standard. Our church gave her a baby shower. The boy, on the other hand, was dealt with quite differently.

[LifeHiscost]

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Shane said:

Man's tragidy is often God's opportunity. If handled right, a teen pregnancy can bring about repentance and commitment to the Lord.

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However, it is probably true that if a person's lot in life is just as easy after failing the litmus test of righteousness, it is doubtful that repentance would be foremost on their mind. "handled right" is not always easy to determine.

[:"red"] "Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard." [/] Proverbs 13:15 KJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[LifeHiscost]

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olger said:

1) Each of us agree that attacking a person in moral failure will not help. It will push them away emotionally. People know when they are sinning, attacking them will only lead them to be defensive.

2) Ignoring the problem is an unBiblical response. If the person is a member, the body of Jesus Christ has a moral obligation to address the issue in a way that will bring healing & maturity to all.

Is there a Biblical pattern to address moral failure? Yes there is:

Psalm 32.

In verses 1-2 he confesses his moral failure.

Verses 3-4 reveals the consequences of not confessing.

In verse 5 David acknowledges his sin.

In verses 6-8, God responds to David's heart with three pictures.

Verse 9. God warns as to the cause of his moral failure.

Verse 11, David praises God.

This pattern builds maturity and healing into the Body. Moral sin will never be resolve apart from repentance. The church must speak the truth in love and lead people to freedom.

olger

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It's a plan easier to follow by the guilty parties, when they realize that Jesus is their best Friend. If the formula is only carried out because one expects the religious ritual to provide release, there will be no permanent good forthcoming.

[:"red"] "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." [/] John 8:32 KJV

[:"red"] "Jesus saith unto him, I am...the truth," [/] John 14:6 KJV

[:"red"] "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." [/] Luke 19:10 KJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[olger]

We had a situation in our church where two young members began dating. They were so aggressive physically (in public) that many of us were embarrassed to be around them. As a church we failed to rebuke this spectacle and educate the couple to moral freedom.

Two things happened.

1) While standing in line for a potluck, they were all over each other again. A non Adventist guest who was visiting for the first time turned to them and said "Hey. You guys are in the Lord's house. Have some respect please." We exchanged our passive embarrassment for a new kind of embarrassment.

2) Guess what? The couple got pregnant out of wedlock. The Pastor wanted to ignore it and do nothing. We each had children who were watching. The five elders met and decided to do something positive. We visited this girl and her family. They wanted to know if there was to be any discipline. I made a suggestion. We asked her if she would be willing to address the body openly about what had happened (everyone knew it anyway). We asked the guy too. We didn't force them, just asked. She wanted to do it. It was a daring move and a good one.

An elder accompanied her and put his arm around her ( in an appropriate way). She acknowleged her wrong and asked our forgivness. After she spoke briefly, we invited the members to form a line and come to the front and tell this girl that they loved her and would be there for her. Everyone did. It brought closure to the rumors & speculation, and most of all satisfied the family involved. The guy chose to run. He was eventually disfellowshipped, to our sadness.

As to the rape statement, in the 40-plus couples we have had the privilege of working with in the last two years, each of them has had some cleaning to do in the moral area. Many years ago, I had some to do myself for things prior to marriage. Spiritual issues cannot be resolved intellectually.

There are three things that amaze me:

I am amazed at how accurate the Bible is to give solutions to each problem that we face.

I am amazed how sin binds and destroys people.

I am amazed how repentance & cleansing frees a person.

In 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul writes to the church and shares a concern about their moral example. It is past time that the Advent Movement meet these needs among our people for helping them come to freedom.

brother olger

[olger]

Let me tell you a true story.

Four years ago, a young couple was dating in Colorado. They had both rebelled against their parents and were united in sex & alcohol etc.. Their Christian parents were deeply hurt.

After two years, the father of the daughter asked a friend of mine (Biblical counselor) if he would be willing to talk with these two rebellious children. The man was busy (booked for 5-years in advance), but he said he would give up three lunch hours that week if they wanted to come in. Suprisingly they did. He counseled with them for three lunch hours and led them to resolve their moral failure and rebellion. They left. My friend (John) forgot about them.

One year later, John met a man from Denver. As they talked, the man said "Hey do you remember so and so's daughter?" (same young couple).

"Yes."

"I attended their wedding last month in Colorado Springs. I will never forget that wedding."

"Why?"

"During the ceremony, the couple turned and faced each other and asked forgivness for the ways that they had damaged each other's spirit with sex and drinking and their rebellious lifestyle. This was in front of 230 people. Then they turned and faced the audience and addressed both sets of parents. They asked their parent's forgiveness for their rebellion. Their parent forgave them. There wasn't a dry eye in the house, including the hard-fisted man in the back row who came only because his wife wanted him to."

Dear ones, that is the mighty power of God at work in the life.

olger

[cricket]

olger,

Out of curiosity, what action would your church have taken if the young couple in two posts above this one didn't agree to address their sins in such a public way??