RumorMongers and the damage they do to the Church

[CyberGuy]

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Why is it easier for some people to believe the worst in a person than the better? Why is it they are automatically guilty first?

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I think it is that they think so lowly of themselves that to tear down others make themselves seem superior in their own eyes. Some people just seem to think the worst of someone when the fact is many of the opinions they hold are downright false but try to tell them that and they go into denial.

[Naomi]

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CyberGuy said:

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A liar suspects other people of lying.

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How true. I have experienced that myself. One cannot tell the truth to a liar for they are always suspecting you are lying.

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Reminds me of an old country saying, "You never know to look behind the door until you've stood there."

[Nicodema]

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Gail said:

The bad thing about rumours or even bad news that is spread, is that it colours the listener's mind negatively toward the subject of the rumour, sometimes forever.

Just think- what will you always remember Bill Clinton for?

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I personally will always remember Prez Clinton as the leader of the administration that released me from the lifetime sentence of economic bondage imposed upon me during the corrupt regime of Mr. Reagan (who decided to steal my student annuity fund in order to build his silly fantasy war machine).

As for the responses of some to this question? Proof of your paragraph #1 above, Gail, and nothing more.

[Nicodema]

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Shane said:

We often judge other people based on our own morals. That is why a boss that is a crook will always suspect his or her employees of stealing from him or her. A cheating spouse will suspect their spouse of cheating. A liar suspects other people of lying.

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In some cases this is true, but not all. Sometimes a person has been so badly burned throughout his life by others doing one of these things that he comes to expect it of people and so is quick to be suspicious. This of course has nothing to do with his own life in which, being highly "allergic" to it as a result, he assiduously avoids such conduct.

Just a view from my backyard ... carry on ... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/icon_salut.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

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Stan said: (in another thread)

... this forum MUST be scandal free, and gossip free. Lies become truth and truth becomes lies.

Statements on the net are in such as manner of having to be prove innocents and are guilty. It should not be the other way around. Too many 'what if - or maybe" become facts as soon as they are posted.

... If you have scandals or juicy gossip, please take it some where else, be they true or false, take them elsewhere.

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Right glad am I to see you take this stand, Stan. I've seen forums on the internet where the members there cannot resist reporting and gossiping and speculating about whatever people who are not there to defend themselves are saying on some OTHER forum. I've seen it on "Adventist" style forums but I've also seen it elsewhere on shared-interest forums where someone has a falling out with someone else and then goes to a similar board (i.e. with the same common interest) and gossips a blue streak just because their nose is out of joint and it's the only way they can make themselves feel empowered.

Right pathetic if you ask me.

I have always thought this practice indicative of the lowest caste of character and a glaring admission of immaturity and innate inferiority on the part of those indulging it. I'm glad you are committed to disallowing it here.

[Guest]

It doesn't surprise me that Stan took this stand.... its his forum and it is typical adventist... deny, deny, and deny.... pretend it doesn't exist and maybe it will go away...

A quote that seems fitting...

"The world you live in is just a sugar-coated topping! There is another world beneath it - the real world." -Blade-

[Dr. Shane]

Stan is to be commended. Gossip draws members and traffic. Yet it does not edify. One of the purposes of forums like this is to edify or build up the church. When we come here we get to know others. We may not limit our conversations to strictly spiritual things but we bring a spiritual prespective into most everything we discuss. We form a cyber, church family and like any other family, gossip is destructive to it.

I suspect this wasn't a decision Stan came to quickly as he has taken a few years to come to it. It is a decision to take the high road. There are other forums that will choose to stay in the gutter. We have a wall to build, let us not come down from it. Let's continue on with the mission God has given us.

"A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter." Prob. 11:13

"The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly." Prob. 18:8

"He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips." Prob. 20:19

"Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth." Prob. 26:20

[Nicodema]

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claborn1960 said:

It doesn't surprise me that Stan took this stand.... its his forum and it is typical adventist... deny, deny, and deny.... pretend it doesn't exist and maybe it will go away...

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I hardly think taking a stand against the type of methods that serve only to kick up lots of dust and dirt rather than get to the truth of a matter constitutes advocacy of denial. Bear in mind claborn that if you have anything specific in mind here, I am neither part of nor party to it, so you would have to speak more plainly in that regard. But as a general principle I have never found that rumormongering and gossip contribute to unveiling the facts of a matter. On the contrary, they are toxic "Chinese whispers" that do more harm than good and ensure an almost 100% iron-clad guarantee that truth will NOT become known; but rather buried in a flurry of hostile speculations, distortions, and other worthless nonsense. And then, because of their very nature, kicking up emotions to highest keel and invoking all sorts of illegitimate but compelling social dynamics, they will in the end make discovery of the truth well nigh impossible.

[Dr. Shane]

Some people actually believe they know the facts when all they really know is hearsay.

Say a man is fired by his boss and this man starts a rumor about him. This man's wife starts spreading the rumor because she believes she knows the facts. Actually, all she knows is hearsay. When the boss produces two eye witnesses that contradict the man's "facts," so the man is denied unemployment, the rumor expands to include the eye witnesses in the conspiracy.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Just wondering.... did Jesus ever vocally condemn the actions of the Pharisees, or did He just use illustrations that made them shift a bit in their robes because *the shoe fit*? []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/]

[Guest]

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Nicodema said:

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claborn1960 said:

It doesn't surprise me that Stan took this stand.... its his forum and it is typical adventist... deny, deny, and deny.... pretend it doesn't exist and maybe it will go away...

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I hardly think taking a stand against the type of methods that serve only to kick up lots of dust and dirt rather than get to the truth of a matter constitutes advocacy of denial. Bear in mind claborn that if you have anything specific in mind here, I am neither part of nor party to it, so you would have to speak more plainly in that regard. But as a general principle I have never found that rumormongering and gossip contribute to unveiling the facts of a matter. On the contrary, they are toxic "Chinese whispers" that do more harm than good and ensure an almost 100% iron-clad guarantee that truth will NOT become known; but rather buried in a flurry of hostile speculations, distortions, and other worthless nonsense. And then, because of their very nature, kicking up emotions to highest keel and invoking all sorts of illegitimate but compelling social dynamics, they will in the end make discovery of the truth well nigh impossible.

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that is your opinion.... I don't share it... I prefer to have the choice to decide for myself what is and is not rumor or gossip.... I do not want someone making that decision for me...I am an adult, I do not need someone filtering info for me....

[Nicodema]

Our freedom ends where someone else's nose begins, though. What about the rights of the party being mistreated by the gossip?

[Dr. Shane]

When I know as much as Jesus, I will feel free to condemn those that need it.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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Shane said:

When I know as much as Jesus, I will feel free to condemn those that need it.

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That was sort of a zinger. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Believe it or not, my question was a sincere one. I'm sorry I asked. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

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Nicodema said:

Our freedom ends where someone else's nose begins, though. What about the rights of the party being mistreated by the gossip?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">your calling it gossip doesn't make it so.... how are facts separated from rumor? Investigation.... only one way to investigate, hear whats out there and then systematically assess it by whatever means available and then substantiating or unsubstantiating the information.....

[Nicodema]

Your denial of it being gossip doesn't make it valid, either. I would venture to say it is gossip where the other party is not present to defend themselves or where doing so is pretty much as futile as a kangaroo court. There's a reason why we have court, and laws, and a justice system, for matters requiring investigation. The only exception to this in my mind is those holding public office of some type or in the public eye. Private citizens have the right to not be harrassed or have their lives damaged by some self-absorbed twit's flapping jaw (or keyboard).

[Nicodema]

Not to put too fine a point on it, the upright, ethical, and noble person will consider the rights and feelings of the person he is inclined to speak about.

As for investigations? Go to the source and let it end there. Each man is the sole authority, humanly speaking, where the reality of himself, his feelings, his beliefs, his motives, the meaning of his words and actions, the facts of his experiences, and his actual motives and intentions are concerned. Go to the source, decide whether you CHOOSE to believe him or not, and the matter dies there. No need to involve a flock of vultures who wish to feed on another's carrion.

[Dr. Shane]

My comment may not have come accross as intended but was sincere nonetheless. We have limitted knowledge and our limitted knowledge should impact how we treat others. Jesus was able to read hearts and minds.

Let's say we have a female student complain about a teacher that made a sexual advance toward her. The only ones that know the truth are the student and the teacher. So what do we do? Now if other students come forward with the same complaint than the evidence starts building against him.

Now say the teacher loses his job and moves to another town and gets a job where he is no longer working with students or young people. The local church folks hear rumors about his past. I see no reason to investigate such rumors if he is no longer in a position to do the same thing again. To do so would only be motivated by a desire for juicy gossip. So even if something is true, doesn't justify spreading a rumor. We must have a noble reason for getting the information out and our information must be more than hearsay.

[CyberGuy]

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your calling it gossip doesn't make it so.... how are facts separated from rumor? Investigation.... only one way to investigate, hear whats out there and then systematically assess it by whatever means available and then substantiating or unsubstantiating the information.....

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There are always the rumers that cannot be disproven or proven. An Outright lie about a person cannot be proven as there is no facts to disprove or to prove it.

For instance if a vicious person said that you had stolen some tools from his garage you could not prove you had or had not stolen those tools.

The facts know is that the neighbor left his garage door open and you his neighbor next door was working in your front yard. The charges seem possible so is spread around.

To often the rules seem to be a man is guilty of a charge until proven innocent however outrages the charge is.

So your point that the charge should be investigates is at times ludicrus. That is not for us to do but for law enforcement to do.

[Dr. Shane]

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The only exception to this in my mind is those holding public office of some type or in the public eye.

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I agree. Since we are a government by the people and for the people, government officials are to be held to a different standard. I don't see that we have any business discussing the private lives of celebrities unless it has some bearing on the entertainment they are asking us to consume.

[CyberGuy]

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As for investigations? Go to the source and let it end there. Each man is the sole authority, humanly speaking, where the reality of himself, his feelings, his beliefs, his motives, the meaning of his words and actions, the facts of his experiences, and his actual motives and intentions are concerned. Go to the source, decide whether you CHOOSE to believe him or not, and the matter dies there. No need to involve a flock of vultures who wish to feed on another's carrion.

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True but if do that you take all the fun out of trashing peoples characters and by doing so prop up ones own selfworth and ego.

[Guest]

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Nicodema said:

Your denial of it being gossip doesn't make it valid, either. I would venture to say it is gossip where the other party is not present to defend themselves or where doing so is pretty much as futile as a kangaroo court. There's a reason why we have court, and laws, and a justice system, for matters requiring investigation. The only exception to this in my mind is those holding public office of some type or in the public eye. Private citizens have the right to not be harrassed or have their lives damaged by some self-absorbed twit's flapping jaw (or keyboard).

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LOL my denial... thanks for the laugh....

[Guest]

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CyberGuy said:

There are always the rumers that cannot be disproven or proven. An Outright lie about a person cannot be proven as there is no facts to disprove or to prove it.

For instance if a vicious person said that you had stolen some tools from his garage you could not prove you had or had not stolen those tools.

The facts know is that the neighbor left his garage door open and you his neighbor next door was working in your front yard. The charges seem possible so is spread around.

To often the rules seem to be a man is guilty of a charge until proven innocent however outrages the charge is.

So your point that the charge should be investigates is at times ludicrus. That is not for us to do but for law enforcement to do.

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law enforcement? are you aware of the percentage of cases an average police dept clears..... and when I say clear, that means they solve it and are able to close the case... less than 30%... meaning 70% of cases opened by law enforcement are pending, open or unsolved...

[Nicodema]

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claborn1960 said:

LOL my denial... thanks for the laugh....

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My pleasure. Shall I arrange for a lynch mob with torches to accompany you on your next "investigation" spree? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

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Nicodema said:

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claborn1960 said:

LOL my denial... thanks for the laugh....

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My pleasure. Shall I arrange for a lynch mob with torches to accompany you on your next "investigation" spree? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">nope.... I dont advocate lynching.... not my style nor my way......